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G-resistance of the virtual pilot - opinions and discussion


Han
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G-resistance of the virtual pilot - who is the prototype?  

593 members have voted

  1. 1. Which G-resistance should have a pilot in the IL-2?

    • IL-2 should have G-resistance parameters of intermediate pilot as it have now
    • IL-2 should have G-resistance parameters of over-medium pilot, like an ace
    • I'm disagree that current G-resistance model is realistic and corresponds to intermediate pilot abilities.

This poll is closed to new votes


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26 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Sitting in your chair, safe at home wont make you good at flying real plane. You can get down the tactics and some experience is you go to great lengths in handicapping yourself.

Going VR so you have to actually check 6 and not just have an owl neck Track IR easy mode. VR has a setero vision and builds awareness in your cockpit and not your bedroom without pants looking at screen. Having some sort of force feedback and motion system for your chair to simulate the uncomfortable plane juttering and stick forces...

This isn’t what Han is asking about. 
He’s simply asking what sort of physical conditioning the pilot physiology model should be based upon. 

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2 minutes ago, AnPetrovich said:

including the addition of the motion sickness effect

 

unknowingly, I've experienced it in La-5 after its elevator was shredded by the AA. The effect came on after ~5 minutes of the continuous up and down pitching of the airplane. The screen went fuzzy and it would clear up if I managed to maintain the horizon for ~10 seconds...

 

If the motion sickness effect is indeed modeled then its onset after 5 minutes seems a bit too late, no? I don't know.. just asking..

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1 minute ago, AnPetrovich said:


You have posted a video that made an year before the G-model was changed, including the addition of the motion sickness effect.
Make some new please.

 

 

This stuff is still widely done in MP servers. 

This is one of the features that makes cannon that cripple plane in one hit superior to 50. cals, too. The time on target needed with non HE weapon is rather long and when your enemy starts pulling this stuff, it gets very hard to land enough hits on it. 

 

Until people are not made... no, FORCED to fly realistically, the best pilots will be the ones who will game the existing system. 

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5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

My alter ego pilot is not a 50+ year old guy who wears bifocals. 
And I think the skill level of the avid gamer equates to “expert” compared to real life WWII some of which were barely trained. Also gamers have decades of “experience” whereas the real war only lasted a few years. Basically gamers are way better than most real pilots ever were.

 

So I vote for “ace” abilities. Both for human players and AI.

Most Red Bull air racer pilots and Reno air racer pilots are in their late 50s and even 60.
When some people say  they are better pilots than the average WWII pilot, please this is just a game, not even close to reality of war ,not physical at all,not dangerous at all, its pretty easy, and you have infinite times to die and re start.

FM is a lot easier also , the torque, the tricky tail wheel handling is simplified for playability, or else half the guys will die trying to take off or land a virtual 109.

With that being said, I think its an awesome game, the best WWII sim/game specially in VR, and developers are making it better and better.

 

If some people insists on having Ace G tolerances,(Which I definitely dont agree, instead of average pilots, this will be a sim of only aces pilots, kind of arcade and not realistic at all) In that case every time our virtual pilot dies , our new pilot should get the G tolerances of a newbie, not even the average pilot.

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I guess when you think about it, it’s better to assume average abilities. This applies to the AI as well and they can’t all be Aces. So neither should the player. That’s fair.  

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  • 1CGS
17 hours ago, Didney_World said:

If the motion sickness effect is indeed modeled then its onset after 5 minutes seems a bit too late, no? I don't know.. just asking..


Maybe... We are talking about a well trained pilot, aren't we? ))
Unfortunately I never found any researches about the dynamics of the motion sickness. Thus, in this matter I based on my own feeling and experience. Perhaps I have overestimated myself. Will check it again any soon.

 

17 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

FM is a lot easier also , the torque, the tricky tail wheel handling is simplified for playability, or else half the guys will die trying to take off or land a virtual 109.

 

Hey, buddy, c'mon! :biggrin: Your words might cause a hurricane here... )) Please, not in this thread! ))

 

Quote

In that case every time our virtual pilot dies , our new pilot should get the G tolerances of a newbie, not even the average pilot.


Only a gun has been attached to the monitor can fix this issue.
Therefore... yep, that's right, let's just play a game, guys :)

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Can you please make a mode for increased negative g effects that can be selected by server owners?

 

Something that will penalize very sharp negative G stunt in a way that your pilot will move for nexst few seconds as if he is heavily wounded (no more stick jerking back and forth)

 

Please please pretty please, make it optional, make it experimental... BUT MAKE THAT JERKING MADNESS STOP! PLEASE, I BEG YOU! 

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1 hour ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Can you please make a mode for increased negative g effects that can be selected by server owners?

 

Something that will penalize very sharp negative G stunt in a way that your pilot will move for nexst few seconds as if he is heavily wounded (no more stick jerking back and forth)

 

Please please pretty please, make it optional, make it experimental... BUT MAKE THAT JERKING MADNESS STOP! PLEASE, I BEG YOU! 

 

agreed, this is by far the most annoying "gaming" feature that all of the snap-to-6 aces are using.

 

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2 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

Can you please make a mode for increased negative g effects that can be selected by server owners?

 

Something that will penalize very sharp negative G stunt in a way that your pilot will move for nexst few seconds as if he is heavily wounded (no more stick jerking back and forth)

 

Please please pretty please, make it optional, make it experimental... BUT MAKE THAT JERKING MADNESS STOP! PLEASE, I BEG YOU! 

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III/JG52_Otto_-I-
13 hours ago, AnPetrovich said:

WIP

@AnPetrovich, @Han  I would like that devs opinions about the real G-resistance chart that i've published here.
Why nobody answer when we show evidences that the game have a discrepancy with real facts??.

thanks in advance 

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27 minutes ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

@AnPetrovich, @Han  I would like that devs opinions about the real G-resistance chart that i've published here.
Why nobody answer when we show evidences that the game have a discrepancy with real facts??.

thanks in advance 

Um, I think you need to do some testing. In the 109 you definitely don´t black out at 5G instantly. In fact, if you have a gradual onset, the pilot can withstand 5G between 50-55 seconds before loss of conciousness in game currently. the onset determines how long you can sustain. I estimate between 40-55 seconds, almost like the numbers you show up there. Also, there are settings in game (realism settings i think) to get the decimals in the G counter for an accurate test.

You only black out instantly at 5-G if you have been pulling Gs  for minutes, bouncy castle style.

Edited by ACG_Vietkong
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III/JG52_Otto_-I-
4 hours ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

Um, I think you need to do some testing. In the 109 you definitely don´t black out at 5G instantly. In fact, if you have a gradual onset, the pilot can withstand 5G between 50-55 seconds before loss of conciousness in game currently. the onset determines how long you can sustain. I estimate between 40-55 seconds, almost like the numbers you show up there. Also, there are settings in game (realism settings i think) to get the decimals in the G counter for an accurate test.

You only black out instantly at 5-G if you have been pulling Gs  for minutes, bouncy castle style.

 Sooo what is the reason of this picture taken the second prior to blackout in a Bf-109.
La imagen puede contener: texto que dice "blackout at4-5G's?? at NEW G-METER 066° 4"

Can you show me a video of your 55 seconds at 5G´s without blackout in a Bf-109K4 ?? 
Thanks for answer.

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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2 minutes ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

 Sooo what is the reason of this picture taken the second prior to blackout in a Bf-109.
https://scontent.fmad10-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/97407775_10223938565154279_5906142698485579776_o.jpg 
Can you show me a video of your 55 seconds at 5G´s whiteout blackout in a Bf-109K4 ?? 
 

Sure I´ll send you the tacview. There might have been a misunderstanding. 55 seconds, give or take until G-LOC. Around 35-45 seconds till screen is black. Greyout occurs earlier, I think 20 seconds when I did the test. This is 5 G Sustained with a fresh pilot and it was done with a 109 G-4. (plane doesn´t matter as long as you hold the G)

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III/JG52_Otto_-I-
27 minutes ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

Sure I´ll send you the tacview. There might have been a misunderstanding. 55 seconds, give or take until G-LOC. Around 35-45 seconds till screen is black. Greyout occurs earlier, I think 20 seconds when I did the test. This is 5 G Sustained with a fresh pilot and it was done with a 109 G-4. (plane doesn´t matter as long as you hold the G)

Don´t forget to mark in some manner when your pilot enter in blackout,  (in ex.guns bursts) because you have not pilot view in TACVIEW.
The airplane shouldn't matter but it is casually that the Bf-109K4 enter in blockout more easy than G-14, G4, or E7 at same G´s pull.
By the way, the take in account that the K4 enter in blackout with  G-LOC (Loss Of Conscious) at first second when reach 6 G,s in a pull-out.  and we don´t know the reason for that.

 

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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1 minute ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

Don´t forget to mark in some manner when your pilot enter in blackout,  (in ex.guns bursts) because you have not pilot view in TACVIEW.
The airplane shouldn't matter but it is casually that the Bf-109K4 enter in blockout more easy than G-14, G4, or E7 at same G´s pull, and we don´t know the reason for that.

Um you don´t have to mark anything. In the test I start at 5000m, left downwards spiral. You know when G-loc occurs in tacview when you stop pulling G's and level.... You can do this test yourself. I´d just select the Instrument panel checkbox in realism settings of the quick mission so you get a more precise reading of the Gs. Record the test and look at the tacview.. don´t really have to explain much more

 

The 109 K4 is a lot faster and I think as more elevator authority(might be wrong about this). So you pull more than 5G in an instant than you actually think you are doing. Thats why its better to look at Tacview.

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III/JG52_Otto_-I-
3 minutes ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

The 109 K4 is a lot faster and I think as more elevator authority(might be wrong about this). So you pull more than 5G in an instant than you actually think you are doing. Thats why its better to look at Tacview.

All Bf-109 Gustav series have the same maximal dive speed than the K4. Morever the K4 fuselaje was the same as Bf-109 G6, and Bf-109 G-10 and G6/ASM were almost identical with diferent tail wheel, or different service doors in the rear fuselage. 
Wartime pilots does not reported K4 different handling characteristic in flight compared with other Gustavs at same speed, except acceleration greater torque effect, or top speed, the flight behavior of the K4 compared with Gustav was reported as the same for real pilots. But it´s not the same in game.

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Here 2 tests with sustained from 45-50 seconds at 5G. 6G is another thing which I haven´t tested. I was responding to your claim that you black out and G_loc at 5G instantly, which is clearly false. UNLESS, you are doing it with a very fatigued pilot.

 

 

 

 

Tracks109 G-4.zip

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6 hours ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

Here 2 tests with sustained from 45-50 seconds at 5G. 6G is another thing which I haven´t tested. I was responding to your claim that you black out and G_loc at 5G instantly, which is clearly false. UNLESS, you are doing it with a very fatigued pilot.

 

 

What black out with P51 . Gsuits . 

 

Tracks109 G-4.zip 16.38 kB · 2 downloads

 

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III/JG52_Otto_-I-
18 hours ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

Here 2 tests with sustained from 45-50 seconds at 5G. 6G is another thing which I haven´t tested. I was responding to your claim that you black out and G_loc at 5G instantly, which is clearly false. UNLESS, you are doing it with a very fatigued pilot.

 

 

 

 

Tracks109 G-4.zip 16.38 kB · 2 downloads

Your evidences are completely unusefull because I can open that ACMI files.
Please upload your video to youtube and share here if it is posible.

This my evidence

 

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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11 minutes ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

Your evidences are completely unusefull because I can open that ACMI files.
Please upload your video to youtube and share here if it is posible.

This mi evidence

https://youtu.be/z2RaG2-jEVQ

Well, you were talking about tacview in your first post about tacview. It´s a neat little piece of software. It´s your problem not mine.

 

In the video, is this done with a fresh pilot or not? Also, looking closely you went up to 5,7 G. I admit, that does look strange that you would blackout with just an instant of 5.7 G, then brought back down to 5.

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III/JG52_Otto_-I-
20 minutes ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

Well, you were talking about tacview in your first post about tacview. It´s a neat little piece of software. It´s your problem not mine.

 

In the video, is this done with a fresh pilot or not? Also, looking closely you went up to 5,7 G. I admit, that does look strange that you would blackout with just an instant of 5.7 G, then brought back down to 5.

I ve said that i had checked the G-LOC in the Bf-109, months ago with a comrade who have TACVIEW installed, because we haven´t the G-meter in game. Now we can see the G-force applied during combat maneovres  in game.
In my video you can see that the pilot passes out at the value of 5 and releases the stick.  He reach 5.7 G pick by the inertial force of the turn. It is not false, K4 pilot is half-dead when reach 5G.

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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4 minutes ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

I ve said that i had checked the G-LOC in the Bf-109, months ago with a comrade who have TACVIEW installed, because we haven´t the G-meter in game. Now we can see the G-force applied during combat maneovres  in game.
In my video you can see that the pilot passes out at the value of 5 and releases the stick.  He reach 5.7 G pick by the inertial force of the turn. It is not false, K4 pilot is half-dead when reach 5G.

This happens with the G-4 as well. I think this has to do with the Onset rate of G, which many people have been complaining about. If you spiral at 5.5-6 G with a gradual onset, you sustain longer than if you dive and pull up with similar values.

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III/JG52_Otto_-I-
3 minutes ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

This happens with the G-4 as well. I think this has to do with the Onset rate of G, which many people have been complaining about. If you spiral at 5.5-6 G with a gradual onset, you sustain longer than if you dive and pull up with similar values.

By the way, my video was taken offline in a quick single player mission, pilot fatigue is zero. A instantly G-LOC when pilot reach 5 or 6 G´s peak, is completely unrealistic for reasons that i've explained my first post.

 

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Rate of onset seems to by key.  Below is an extract from the interesting link underneath.

 

"The symptoms that result from high G exposure are dependent on the rate of onset of the acceleration. When the onset is gradual (about 0.1 G per sec.), visual symptoms precede GLOC. If the onset is rapid (1 G per second or more), GLOC can occur without visual warning."

 

https://skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/2759.pdf

 

I voted to keep the in-game modelling as we have now.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

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FTC_DerSheriff
1 hour ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

Your evidences are completely unusefull because I can open that ACMI files.
Please upload your video to youtube and share here if it is posible.

This my evidence

 

Like the others said, its not the total amount of Gs but the rate at which you arrived there. You can pull more in the 109 but you have to lean into it.

that said, this behavior is not supported by recent papers and should be corrected in the adjustment.
 

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III/JG52_Otto_-I-
20 minutes ago, DerSheriff said:

Like the others said, its not the total amount of Gs but the rate at which you arrived there. You can pull more in the 109 but you have to lean into it.

that said, this behavior is not supported by recent papers and should be corrected in the adjustment.
 

Do you mean that you are agree with my point and the G-resistance model must be corrected?

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1 hour ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

Do you mean that you are agree with my point and the G-resistance model must be corrected?

 

let's stick to the point made by previous commenters. It's the on-set that we're discussing here, not the whole g-resistance model.

 

Looking at your G-meter and the elapsed time you are pulling ~1.4 G's between 13 seconds and 14 seconds of flight, that's 3.6g to 5G . Then you let it off for 0.5 a sec, the pilots starts to breathe heavily, then you start pulling even further, adding to the accumulated on-set additional 1G.

 

so per book posted above your displayed on-set is higher than 1G/sec. You black-out.

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-=PHX=-SuperEtendard
1 hour ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

Do you mean that you are agree with my point and the G-resistance model must be corrected?


He says that the model should be adjusted, but not because of your reasoning since you are talking about absolute G without considering the onset rate, it's more complex than that:

If we take the new model of G tolerance curve by Whinnery and Forster, you can get to many different tolerances depending on how quickly you accelerate:

unknown.png

So depending on how quickly you pull, the tolerance could be from pretty much unlimited in the first 8 seconds or so (there would be an upper limit of instantaneous G load where health danger would be important but I don't know at which level it would be, most likely above the structural limit of a ww2 plane) to as low as 4.5G if you accelerate slow enough (but sustained for much longer time than the higher G pulls),

@Floppy_Sock If I got something wrong feel free to correct me :salute:

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard
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  • 1CGS

Hi guys,
many of you have mentioned that you want a pilot that is less resistant to negative Gs.

 

This is how the current G-model works on your computers:

 

Neg.G.JPG.efc433bb7cffcdc118cd290e9773b679.JPG


My question is:

are you really sure we need to reduce these numbers?

 

Or maybe you want to get more noticeable pull-push effects?
(like: quicker motion sickness and reduced G+ resistance after G-)

Just quick answer, please:
Yes, these numbers are too long / No, just work on push-pull issue.

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BlackHellHound1

No, just work on push-pull issue.
At least to fix the main issue of non-existent Push-Pull effects.

 

But it does appear to be both that need some tweaking.

Edited by BlackHellHound1
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 No, just work on push-pull issue.

 

Only working on quicker motion sickness, IMO is the lazy solution to it. In reality, many people and myself would  prefer less G tolerance in function of how many -G and for how long. A combo would be ideal

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