Official Historical Campaign "Hell Hawks Over the Bulge"

[--[---MAILMAN----]

I believe that assumption is correct.   Thanks for confirming I am not imagining things.  I flew the Hell Hawks and Lightning Strikes campaign when Bodenplatte was first released and don't remember encountering these phenomena.  I will be flying L. S. again after I finish this one.

 

The developer briefs had said that changes/updates had been made to several of the scripted campaigns, Hell Hawks being one, Lightning Stikes another and Normandy.  I have noticed the AI flight leaders make no attempt to match the altitudes of the flight path on the map to the target area, nor to they fly the initial legs of the flight path on the map, but eventually follow it, but at lower altitudes.  I also have noticed that the yellow way points seen from the cockpit have no corresponding way point on the flight path on the map.  I also noticed that some of the campaigns no longer have return flight paths on the map after the objectives have been completed so if the flight leader gets "wacked" no flight path on the map therefore no altitude reference.  In some instances as I mentioned regarding Normandy Campaign the AI wingmen/leader does not even return to the home base, but rather some other airfield even a sector or two away regardless if the plane is damaged or not.

[Jaegermeister]

1 hour ago, --[---MAILMAN---- said:

 

The developer briefs had said that changes/updates had been made to several of the scripted campaigns, Hell Hawks being one, Lightning Stikes another and Normandy.  I have noticed the AI flight leaders make no attempt to match the altitudes of the flight path on the map to the target area, nor to they fly the initial legs of the flight path on the map, but eventually follow it, but at lower altitudes.  I also have noticed that the yellow way points seen from the cockpit have no corresponding way point on the flight path on the map.  I also noticed that some of the campaigns no longer have return flight paths on the map after the objectives have been completed so if the flight leader gets "wacked" no flight path on the map therefore no altitude reference.  In some instances as I mentioned regarding Normandy Campaign the AI wingmen/leader does not even return to the home base, but rather some other airfield even a sector or two away regardless if the plane is damaged or not.

 

What Campaign are you referring to as "Normandy", Overlord?

 

There have been no recent changes to that campaign since it was released except adjusting the AI fighter types. Looking at the files, that would have been in September of 2023. You might want to look back at the developer briefs you are referring to. Any changes to how those missions play out are due to changes in AI behavior and many of those issues have been reported to the Devs in bug reports and in the tester forum. We all await those to be adequately addressed but I am not going to continue to edit all the old campaigns chasing issues that are caused by AI behavior.

 

I will look at the mission you are referring to and see what is going on with the fuel and waypoints when I adjust the message check zones. I am not going to adjust any flight paths or altitudes unless they affect game play. I have no ETA on any new updates to either Hell Hawks or Lightning Strikes at the moment. Based on the current update schedule and general lack of pending additions to the game, it might be a while. 

[--[---MAILMAN----]

 

 

 

Yes of course, I should have typed Overlord, vice Normandy my mistake. 

 

I did not remember exactly when I flew the Overlord campaign the first time, but it was not long after it released.  I just completed flying Overlord for the second time a week or so ago and that is when I noticed the change in the way the AI from my flight RTB.

 

You might want to look back at the developer briefs you are referring to."

I should have said Update not development blog, but see below:

 

Update 5.201: Flying Circus Vol.III Release, CG-4A Glider and IAR-80/81 short version

19.12.2023

 

5.201 Changelist

21. Overlord campaign is updated and translated into Frenches.

 

Does this mean the only update to the campaign is translation into French?  I took it as the campaign was updated and that the campaign was translated into the French Language also.

 

I am just reporting that the AI planes in the player flight are not all flying back to the airfield they took off from.   Since there is no flight path on the map for RTB I don't know if this is by mission intention or  AI having minds of their own.  I do know that all of the yellow way points (more of them than on the flight path to the target way points) as seen from the cockpit do not all have matching way points on the flight path to the target.   I am just reporting what I find. 

 

Update 5.203

16.04.2024

 

5.203 Changelist

12. Updated campaigns "Lightning Strikes", "Havoc over Kuban", "Hawks over the Bulge";

 

Doesn't say what the updates are, asset allocation maybe?

 

FYI in Mission 13. Bastogne 2 which I just flew, the AI fly/trigger the correct waypoints and no endless circling around Bastogne.

 

If this is not the place to report what I find in these campaign missions please tell me where I should post them so I am not posting them here.

 

I do appreciate what you and others are doing to look into these.  I don't want to keep bothering you or others if this is not the correct place.  I am retired now so I have more time to fly. 😁  I have always been a detailed oriented guy.

 

[Jaegermeister]

8 hours ago, --[---MAILMAN---- said:

 

Yes of course, I should have typed Overlord, vice Normandy my mistake. 

 

I did not remember exactly when I flew the Overlord campaign the first time, but it was not long after it released.  I just completed flying Overlord for the second time a week or so ago and that is when I noticed the change in the way the AI from my flight RTB.

 

You might want to look back at the developer briefs you are referring to."

I should have said Update not development blog, but see below:

 

Update 5.201: Flying Circus Vol.III Release, CG-4A Glider and IAR-80/81 short version

19.12.2023

 

5.201 Changelist

21. Overlord campaign is updated and translated into Frenches.

 

Does this mean the only update to the campaign is translation into French?  I took it as the campaign was updated and that the campaign was translated into the French Language also.

 

I am just reporting that the AI planes in the player flight are not all flying back to the airfield they took off from.   Since there is no flight path on the map for RTB I don't know if this is by mission intention or  AI having minds of their own.  I do know that all of the yellow way points (more of them than on the flight path to the target way points) as seen from the cockpit do not all have matching way points on the flight path to the target.   I am just reporting what I find. 

 

Yes, the only change to Overlord was adding French localization. I didn't change anything

 

 

8 hours ago, --[---MAILMAN---- said:

 

Update 5.203

16.04.2024

 

5.203 Changelist

12. Updated campaigns "Lightning Strikes", "Havoc over Kuban", "Hawks over the Bulge";

 

Doesn't say what the updates are, asset allocation maybe?

 

I don’t think I ever wrote a change list for Havoc over Kuban, but it included new skin assignments, adding tactical ID codes, rewriting all the mission logic, updating effects, revising waypoints and flight paths, and some other things I can’t even remember right now. The AI landing issue in the last 3 missions is still under review as far as I know.

 

The most recent changes to the Lightning Strikes Campaign corrected a couple of errors in the custom ground texture file and fixed a problem with taking off in 1 mission due to the player flight group being accidentally moved about 20 yards north off the runway.

 

The Hell Hawks update addressed a couple of invulnerable artillery guns in the target area in 2 missions and a small issue with a trigger being overwritten by a radio call which required changing a timer by 2 seconds.

 

The changes in Hell Hawks and Lightning Strikes have been discussed in their dedicated campaign threads

 

8 hours ago, --[---MAILMAN---- said:

 

FYI in Mission 13. Bastogne 2 which I just flew, the AI fly/trigger the correct waypoints and no endless circling around Bastogne.

 

So you are saying it is fine now?

 

8 hours ago, --[---MAILMAN---- said:

If this is not the place to report what I find in these campaign missions please tell me where I should post them so I am not posting them here.

 

I do appreciate what you and others are doing to look into these.  I don't want to keep bothering you or others if this is not the correct place.  I am retired now so I have more time to fly. 😁  I have always been a detailed oriented guy.

 

 

This is in fact the correct place to report issues with the Hell Hawks over the Bulge Campaign. I am now unsure if there is something in Hell Hawks that needs to be looked at.

 

This is not the right place to report issues with the Lightning Strikes or Overlord Campaigns, they have their own threads in the same forum as this one.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2024 by Jaegermeister

[--[---MAILMAN----]

Mission 12. Bastogne has the problem with the missed way point at Bastogne.  The AI flights do not fly over the yellow navigation marker over Bastogne.

Mission 13. Bastogne 2 waypoints worked perfectly.  The AI flights fly directly over the yellow navigation marker over Bastogne.  These waypoints appear identical on the map as the waypoints in mission 12.

 

You had asked where I read about the changes/updates so I included where I read them all.  I haven't flown the Kuban campaign and probably won't, but it was listed with the others.

Edited May 18, 2024 by --[---MAILMAN----

[LukeFF]

Since it's D-Day: https://x.com/NewForestRamble/status/1798616823564554438

 

 

[Trooper117]

And good old Razor backs, not bubble tops... 

[cladclad]

On 3/14/2024 at 4:13 PM, Jaegermeister said:

 

I just looked at it. It appears that there is not enough time for the "Looks Like Jerry's Had Enough" message to play and it prevents the RTB waypoint from triggering. I'll see if I have time to fix it before the next update, and maybe come up with a proximity vulnerability trigger for the Ground Artillery reported by  @=SqSq=SignorMagnifico so the player can kill it when within 1000 meters or such like, but it won't get killed by the allied tanks. 

Any update here? 

I just played the last mission and all flights just circle the combat area after we clean up the Luftwaffe

[Jaegermeister]

I submitted that correction a while ago. There must be something else going on as well.

[Mysticpuma]

Is this still available? I can't see a download link? Cheers

[Jaegermeister]

https://il2sturmovik.com/store/campaigns/

 

I get this in the store with an "add to cart" radio button

 

[KodiakJac]

This is just an excellent campaign!  It's dripping with atmosphere.  It really gives you a taste of what it would be like flying in the Battle of the Bulge.  If you don't already have "Hell Hawks Over the Bulge," you should consider giving it a good hard look.  I doubt you'll be sorry you bought it. 

[PB0_Roll]

Getting shot down by hidden flak before, during or right after first pass in every mission over the bulge tends to lessen the will to pursue.

 

P-47 being a sturdy beast, one can fly it home at times, but when your wing gets sawed it's game over.

 

Other than this, it was quite immersive with good briefings, nice skins, proper sceneries at home base and near target, and a propos voice acting.

 

I only wish attack profiles would ensure not being shot down every mission once german offensive has started.

[Gambit21]

24 minutes ago, PB0_Roll said:

Getting shot down by hidden flak before, during or right after first pass in every mission over the bulge tends to lessen the will to pursue.

 

P-47 being a sturdy beast, one can fly it home at times, but when your wing gets sawed it's game over.

 

Other than this, it was quite immersive with good briefings, nice skins, proper sceneries at home base and near target, and a propos voice acting.

 

I only wish attack profiles would ensure not being shot down every mission once german offensive has started.

If that’s happening then something has changed with the core game code/AI. Was never a problem before.

[PB0_Roll]

This or I'm a flak magnet 😪

[Jaegermeister]

4 hours ago, PB0_Roll said:

This or I'm a flak magnet 😪

 

If you could give us an approximation of the location and during which missions, I can take a look at it. I would not have time to go back through all the missions since it's never come up before in about 4 years.

 

I have been shot by Flak before, but not very often in that campaign. If there are any Flakveirlings in the missions I forgot about, they can be super deadly now. I rarely even use them anymore and they can be replaced by Flak guns that give the visuals without being quite as lethal.

[PB0_Roll]

Everything went well around aachen.

 

Once the bulge missions started, Flakvierling started to take a toll.

 

 

Location, around the target area.

[Gambit21]

5 hours ago, PB0_Roll said:

Everything went well around aachen.

 

Once the bulge missions started, Flakvierling started to take a toll.

 

 

Location, around the target area.

Danger level was tuned according to AI accuracy / testing etc. If AI accuracy has improved significantly, (undeterred as of yet) then pucker factor / risk will have increased accordingly and be “out of tune” unfortunately.

[PB0_Roll]

I found a workaround by not following the leader into his suicidal path. I stayed in proximity but above and behind. When he got engaged by Flak, I went and destroyed it. Afterwise, while flight lead cruises aimlessly for 10 to  15 minutes, I destroy the target and then cover him (when he's not in cloud cover, which happen sometimes) until he finally bombs the target (that's a 10/15 mns wait) and calls for regrouping. Afterwise we can safely cruise to home base.

 

Also, I was quite late to see it because earlier I couldn't wait for regroup due to damage to my own plane, but this time (bastogne 2) I went back with the flight and taxied behind. I then noticed that some (not all) of the parked P-47s along the taxiway are duplicate, seemingly having 2 props and a double fuselage. I'm unsure it's a mission design fail though, as I understand some parked aircraft are there by map designer ?

 

 

 

[Burninator6502]

Mission 8 - Bulge 1.

 

Is this correct? There are groups of German trucks all bunched up, but don’t show up as targets and can’t be destroyed. I would say that easily half the non-tank vehicles just sit almost nose to nose and are invulnerable. It’s hard to tell without cheating (using the target identifiers) which things can be destroyed and which can’t.

 

I understand that performance-wise there can’t be too many things ‘alive’ at one time, but this is kinda confusing.

 

Bug or ‘just the way it is’?

[Gambit21]

15 hours ago, Burninator6502 said:

Mission 8 - Bulge 1.

 

Is this correct? There are groups of German trucks all bunched up, but don’t show up as targets and can’t be destroyed. I would say that easily half the non-tank vehicles just sit almost nose to nose and are invulnerable. It’s hard to tell without cheating (using the target identifiers) which things can be destroyed and which can’t.

 

I understand that performance-wise there can’t be too many things ‘alive’ at one time, but this is kinda confusing.

 

Bug or ‘just the way it is’?

Wasn’t created that way, nor was the case for years… that’s all I can tell you.

[Burninator6502]

I'm on the mission Bulge 3, and in the last 3 missions, the lead has crashed into the woods and just sits there. No more radio calls, nothing.

 

Also, in most of the mission descriptions, the Germans are referred to as 'Gerry', it should be 'Jerry'.

Edited April 9 by Burninator6502
Forgot the part about 'Gerry'

[Jaegermeister]

On 4/8/2025 at 1:17 PM, Gambit21 said:

Wasn’t created that way, nor was the case for years… that’s all I can tell you.

 

The static vehicles parked alongside the road are normal linked object vehicle blocks with German faction selected. They are not invincible, they have a damage model and the amount of damage required to destroy them is the stock value. It is not possible to make blocks invincible, only complex vehicles.

[Burninator6502]

3 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

The static vehicles parked alongside the road are normal linked object vehicle blocks with German faction selected. They are not invincible, they have a damage model and the amount of damage required to destroy them is the stock value. It is not possible to make blocks invincible, only complex vehicles.

Should they show up as red targets or are they just 'background' decoration?

 

There were also a lot of trucks/personnel carriers in the convoy and I dropped 1,000pd bombs on their heads multiple times. If they aren't invincible they're pretty close!

Edited April 9 by Burninator6502
grammar

[Burninator6502]

I reflew the mission to take pictures. The German convoy that doesn't show up with Item markers is marked with green. The German convoy that shows up with Item markers is circled in red. I've dropped multiple 1,000pd bombs on the trucks in the convoy with zero effect. Strafing also had zero effect.

Again, perhaps this convoy is just scenery but it's hard to tell without turning item markers on. I wasted a lot of ammo on them! 

This is the composition of the convoy - personnel carriers and trucks.

[Patricks]

Looks like the game doesn't count those piled up vehicles as actually being there as targets, as shown by the lack of red icons over them?

[Jaegermeister]

2 hours ago, Patricks said:

Looks like the game doesn't count those piled up vehicles as actually being there as targets, as shown by the lack of red icons over them?

 

That's correct, they are just static blocks, similar to the static airplanes placed around most airfields.

 

 

Edited April 10 by Jaegermeister

[Burninator6502]

7 hours ago, Patricks said:

Looks like the game doesn't count those piled up vehicles as actually being there as targets, as shown by the lack of red icons over them?

That's what I thought at first but it was such a juicy target I wanted to make sure. I've never seen a convoy like that but I sure do wish it was real. A flight of P-47s would rip that up!

 

My only issue with that is that if you're playing Expert realism and don't use item markers, it's hard to tell what's real and what's not. I choose to believe these are real, just out of gas and empty and that's why they don't go up in a ball of flame.

 

It will be nice when PCs are powerful enough that everything can be live, but I understand mission designers have to make tradeoffs.

Edited April 10 by Burninator6502

[Burninator6502]

I just finished the campaign and it was excellent! Definitely my favorite so far, nice job devs!

[Aapje]

I wish that they would improve it for the new game engine. I assume that the heavy CPU load is mainly because the vehicle/plane has a working AI that takes a lot of resources. In principle, an unmanned static vehicle or plane that does have a damage model, but no AI, should be possible.

[Sandmarken]

39 minutes ago, Aapje said:

I wish that they would improve it for the new game engine. I assume that the heavy CPU load is mainly because the vehicle/plane has a working AI that takes a lot of resources. In principle, an unmanned static vehicle or plane that does have a damage model, but no AI, should be possible.

Static vehicles have a damage model; they can be destroyed, and their model changes to a destroyed type. If made into an entity, I think they will get a marker and be scored as a destroyed object. They still use much less CPU power than a full AI vehicle, but their damage model is less sophisticated. 

 

From what I've seen of the new game, I hope the AI will use less CPU, as I've seen much more complicated models and things like infantry that I would guess need some numbers to be realistic.

Edited April 11 by Sandmarken

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, Sandmarken said:

Static vehicles have a damage model; they can be destroyed, and their model changes to a destroyed type. If made into an entity, I think they will get a marker and be scored as a destroyed object. They still use much less CPU power than a full AI vehicle, but their damage model is less sophisticated. 

 

From what I've seen of the new game, I hope the AI will use less CPU, as I've seen much more complicated models and things like infantry that I would guess need some numbers to be realistic.

I placed live vehicles and parked aircraft in many cases with both Hell Hawks and Havoc.

 

 

[Sandmarken]

30 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

I placed live vehicles and parked aircraft in many cases with both Hell Hawks and Havoc.

 

 

I wish we had more static vehicles for things like C-47s, and it would be great to have the ability to put tactical numbers on static planes as well. One can dream. 😃

[Jaegermeister]

9 hours ago, Sandmarken said:

Static vehicles have a damage model; they can be destroyed, and their model changes to a destroyed type. If made into an entity, I think they will get a marker and be scored as a destroyed object. They still use much less CPU power than a full AI vehicle, but their damage model is less sophisticated. 

 

From what I've seen of the new game, I hope the AI will use less CPU, as I've seen much more complicated models and things like infantry that I would guess need some numbers to be realistic.

 

Most of the static blocks do have a damage model, but they do not count on the scoreboard if you kill static block planes or vehicles. Only complex vehicles are registered in the score. Buildings are blocks, and some of them are counted but I recall that Bridges don't show up either. It does not seem to be very consistent, and I have never seen a tested list of what does or does not show up on the scoreboard after a mission.

 

I'm not sure how static objects and scenery will be handled with Korea, but I would guess it will be a bit more complex and interactive based on the progress I have seen in every other area.

 

 

Edited April 11 by Jaegermeister

[Sandmarken]

1 minute ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

Most of the static blocks do have a damage model, but they do not count on the scoreboard if you kill static block planes or vehicles. Only complex vehicles are registered in the score. Buildings are blocks, and some of them are counted. It does not seem to be very consistent, and I have never seen a tested list of what shows up on the scoreboard after a mission.

 

I'm not sure how static objects and scenery will be handled with Korea, but I would guess it will be a bit more complex and interactive based on the progress I have seen in every other area.

Ah, okay. I was sure it showed on the scoreboard if made into an entity. I now remember that static planes show up regardless as parked plane. 

[Jaegermeister]

2 hours ago, Sandmarken said:

Ah, okay. I was sure it showed on the scoreboard if made into an entity. I now remember that static planes show up regardless as parked plane. 

 

I'll check it out, I am starting to get curious what does show up and what does not. It shouldn't be too hard to set up a test for it.

[sevenless]

19 minutes ago, Jaegermeister said:

 

I'll check it out, I am starting to get curious what does show up and what does not. It shouldn't be too hard to set up a test for it.

 

If you are on it, you might want to have a look at radar as well. Last night I bombed one in career mode. Target showed up as destroyed in the in flight scoreboard, but not in the debrief scoreboard after the flight. I will try to document this next time with my next Tiffy raid on some radar site.

[Jaegermeister]

OK, I did a little testing to clarify damage scoring to static objects.... Sorry for hijacking your thread @Gambit21, I can move this if you want me to.

 

So the weapon of choice was of course the P-47 because, well..... it's a flying artillery group. I dropped 1000lb and 500lb bombs on larger vehicles and fired rockets at the thin skinned ones. 

 

 

So the first test was various static block objects all selected as linked objects with German Faction.

 

A Bridge, Train Engine, He-111, German Half-Track, Willys Jeep, Opel Truck, German Ford Truck, Opel Transport, Russian BM-13 Rocket Launcher, Stug, T-34 tank

 

They all showed up on the scoreboard in the correct places

 

Spoiler

 

 

I tested the radar vehicle per request of @sevenless, and it showed up too. Maybe a different type would behave differently, there are a few of them.

 

Spoiler

 

 

So you were correct @Sandmarken  

 

 

 

More specifically regarding this campaign, just for grins I copy and pasted the parked group of vehicles directly out of Hell Hawks Mission 8

 

 

And then of course I dropped a string of 2x 1000lb and 1x 500lb bombs on the convoy to see what happened.

 

 

 

 

It looks to me like the 500lb bomb did not kill a vehicle and it takes a direct hit from a 1000lb bomb to kill a truck. This seems a bit excessive and maybe the damage needed to kill them needs to be adjusted. I don't know how to adjust the damage values, but I would guess it requires extracting the file and running it as a mod so that would not be an option in an Official Campaign.

 

 

 

Edited April 12 by Jaegermeister

[sevenless]

Final mission of this marvel of a campaign. Really enjoyed it, but I guess the last mission is lacking a trigger for mission success?

 

Shot down three planes and after going bingo on ammo decided to return and land at St.Trond. Still the mission does not count as successfully completed?

 

Screens attached. Spoiler alert!

 

Spoiler

 

Edited April 17 by sevenless

[Gambit21]

59 minutes ago, sevenless said:

Final mission of this marvel of a campaign. Really enjoyed it, but I guess the last mission is lacking a trigger for mission success?

 

Shot down three planes and after going bingo on ammo decided to return and land at St.Trond. Still the mission does not count as successfully completed?

 

Screens attached. Spoiler alert!

 

  Hide contents

 

 

Glad you enjoyed it.

 

Been a while since I built this or even looked at any of the mission files, but I'm pretty sure that the success condition that I placed was landing back at the field.  

If that had been missed, it would have been discovered in initial testing or another user long before now I'd think.

 

I don't have IL2 installed anymore so I can't open up my mission file and take a look.... @Jaegermeister possibly can if he still has time as he had taken over the task of curating this for me.