FXAA/MSAA in VR compared

[Creep]

@Bernard_IV out of curiousity since you are running the Reverb as well... what settings are you running in SteamVR? ASW, Supersampling, resolution, etc. Also curious if you have noticed weirdness with planes near clouds - what is your cloud setting? Any changes from default in WMR?

[SCG_motoadve]

4XMSAA is the best picture in my system with an HP Reverb.

I tried 4X FXAA and increased the SS in the HP Reverb to 190% to compensate image quality , and it started to get slower performance (Stem VR Beta) still 4XMSAA looks better, has better performance with SS set at 108%.

[Bernard_IV]

3 hours ago, QB.Creep said:

@Bernard_IV out of curiousity since you are running the Reverb as well... what settings are you running in SteamVR? ASW, Supersampling, resolution, etc. Also curious if you have noticed weirdness with planes near clouds - what is your cloud setting? Any changes from default in WMR?

No special options there, native resolution, no ASW, no SS.  I think my WMR is normal, just everything I could find in windows set to performance and high image quality with no AA.  I've found that once I got my processor to 5.0ghz I didn't need ASW any longer.  I might drop down to 70fps diving on someone over Eindhoven but it is normally at 90fps with plenty of headroom.  I have mirrors low, buildings 2X, draw distance 150km.  Grass off, bloom off in the file.  Clouds are set to low.  My clouds look bad and contacts blotch around them but are easy to spot and follow.  Double layer clouds crush my FPS when clouds are turned up.  Dynamic resolution set to 1 all the way right (which is off) when this is on it changes the resolution and I wind up losing contacts against the ground.  The AA seems to blur the very distant contacts making them hard to spot so I keep it off.  The MSAA costs me all of my FPS headroom and the FXAA seems to blur distant contacts badly.  I don't think you need AA with a Reverb but the image does look better with it on.  I am going to mess with my resolution a bit to see if I can spot better with higher or lower sampling.  Overall my graphics look kinda shitty with no AA and clouds off but it is all about spotting and high framerates for me.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Bernard_IV

[HunDread]

General question on AA:

 

If I had AA set to x2 pre-patch, which was showing multisampling=1 in the startup.cfg, is the below exactly the same AA setting now after the patch?

 

    msaa = 1
    multisampling = 1

[Alonzo]

46 minutes ago, HunDread said:

If I had AA set to x2 pre-patch, which was showing multisampling=1 in the startup.cfg, is the below exactly the same AA setting now after the patch?

 

    msaa = 1
    multisampling = 1

 

That config file setting is applying 2x MSAA. We can't directly compare it to pre-patch because something other than MSAA/FXAA was at play for anti-aliasing.

4 hours ago, QB.Creep said:

@Bernard_IV out of curiousity since you are running the Reverb as well... what settings are you running in SteamVR? ASW, Supersampling, resolution, etc. Also curious if you have noticed weirdness with planes near clouds - what is your cloud setting? Any changes from default in WMR?

 

Be aware that for the Reverb a SteamVR setting of 100% supersample actually applies sub-sampling -- at least according to Chili, the render target is below the resolution of the headset. You need 188% "supersample" to actually render 1:1 pixels on the Reverb. 100% "supersample" is actually only rendering about half as many pixels as the Reverb has in its displays.

 

Edit: Hmm, I might be wrong about this. Apparently there was a WMR beta that changed things, so 100% actually is 100% of the pixels for the Reverb. Did the beta translate into the normal, non-beta channel now?

Edited May 21, 2020 by Alonzo

[Bernard_IV]

I thought I was pixel for pixel native res, I'll look into it.  It looks native res to my eye.

[Creep]

Lol they couldn’t make this crap any more confusing if they tried. At one point I had it at a really high percentage, then at 106%, then below.... I just reset it to the default last night. Will play around with it some more tonight. What is yours now Alonzo?

[Alonzo]

57 minutes ago, QB.Creep said:

Lol they couldn’t make this crap any more confusing if they tried. At one point I had it at a really high percentage, then at 106%, then below.... I just reset it to the default last night. Will play around with it some more tonight. What is yours now Alonzo?

 

I'm on Rift S, I'm afraid, can't help. Sorry to confuse the matter, I think there's some kind of check against SteamVR you should do, check the actual render target for each eye. Should be around 2100 or 2200 per eye if you're approximately at the native res of the Reverb.

[Creep]

no worries, thanks man.

 

native for the hp reverb is 2160x2160 per eye, so i set the custom resolution multiplier for IL2 to be 88% (2232 x 2180) in SteamVR Settings > Video. hope that's right? if anyone sees this and knows, please let me know!

[chiliwili69]

On 5/20/2020 at 3:50 PM, Alonzo said:

Chili will organize some more benchmarking

 

I am afraid that the remagen benchmark does not work with latest hotfix. It seems that it loads everything but appear a small error in a window. Maybe it could be something easy to correct by dev team, maybe not.

[[CPC]Giledhil]

No doubt MSAA is better for both image quality and spotting.
But heck, it's really good for those of us not having insane rigs ! 
With the gain from getting FXAA, I was able to add some eye candy and still get acceptable FPS (never below 45, which is OK for me with reprojection) on my 4790K@4.6, 1060 6Gb and O+ !

[=X51=VC_]

On 5/20/2020 at 2:50 PM, Alonzo said:

I suspect that best spotting is going to be 4x MSAA in-game and zero (or rather 1.0) supersample for the headset, and that best graphics is going to be 4x FXAA in-game and then as much supersample for the headset that your GPU can handle. (Actually best graphics is going to be 4x MSAA in-game plus supersample, but we're not all running 2080ti K!ngP1n cards...)

 

I'll be interested to see how Fenris' usual testing goes, and maybe Chili will organize some more benchmarking. Someone said their old track files were broken but I haven't confirmed that.

 

What makes you say that? I thought standard advice was that in-game MSAA is crappy and supersampling is better for both spotting and image quality. Did this patch upgrade the MSAA as well as adding FXAA?

[Bernard_IV]

Man I start getting angry when my FPS drops below 70.  Gotta run 90 with lots of headroom.  I'm looking forward to the new generation of GPU's later this year and the DDR5 motherboards in a few years.  No AA for me even though my cockpit looks a bit like legos.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Bernard_IV

[Alonzo]

3 hours ago, =X51=VC_ said:

What makes you say that? I thought standard advice was that in-game MSAA is crappy and supersampling is better for both spotting and image quality. Did this patch upgrade the MSAA as well as adding FXAA?

 

The game didn't have MSAA or FXAA previously. It had an unnamed built-in "AA" mechanism. Standard advice, from people who fly competitively, has never been that supersampling is better for spotting. It crushes pixels together to improve image quality, which is exactly what you don't want for spotting. You want enemy plane pixels to 'twinkle' and stand out, not blur in. Spotting and image quality are basically at odds with each other. In this patch, ignoring performance, you want 4x MSAA for best spotting, and the least supersample you can bear and not feel the image is full of jaggies. If you have an older GPU or a high resolution headset, you might need to use FXAA instead, which isn't as good for spotting but is way faster for frame rates.

 

I was playing around last night and ended up at 4x MSAA, zero supersample (1.0 pixel density, Steam 100%). But that's my personal preference. People playing single player or with icons on might prefer zero in-game AA and lots of supersample, but that's all about image quality not spotting ability.

[=X51=VC_]

16 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

 

The game didn't have MSAA or FXAA previously. It had an unnamed built-in "AA" mechanism. Standard advice, from people who fly competitively, has never been that supersampling is better for spotting. It crushes pixels together to improve image quality, which is exactly what you don't want for spotting. You want enemy plane pixels to 'twinkle' and stand out, not blur in. Spotting and image quality are basically at odds with each other. In this patch, ignoring performance, you want 4x MSAA for best spotting, and the least supersample you can bear and not feel the image is full of jaggies. If you have an older GPU or a high resolution headset, you might need to use FXAA instead, which isn't as good for spotting but is way faster for frame rates.

 

I was playing around last night and ended up at 4x MSAA, zero supersample (1.0 pixel density, Steam 100%). But that's my personal preference. People playing single player or with icons on might prefer zero in-game AA and lots of supersample, but that's all about image quality not spotting ability.

 

I don't understand how MSAA can make spotting better if supersampling makes it worse. Doesn't MSAA apply a similar principle of looking at nearby pixels and crushing them together like you say, but just on edges instead of the whole image? Or am I misunderstanding how MSAA works?

 

I will try 4x MSAA with 100% SS in SteamVR. Before I ran 0x AA and 150% SS, so performance shouldn't be an issue. I felt spotting was OK but still looking for better, I want to make use of what this patch has brought if everyone says it's so good.

[[CPC]Giledhil]

29 minutes ago, =X51=VC_ said:

 

I don't understand how MSAA can make spotting better if supersampling makes it worse. Doesn't MSAA apply a similar principle of looking at nearby pixels and crushing them together like you say, but just on edges instead of the whole image? Or am I misunderstanding how MSAA works?

MSAA is edge-detection based. That's why it won't blur distant contacts.

[=X51=VC_]

3 minutes ago, [CPC]Giledhil said:

MSAA is edge-detection based. That's why it won't blur distant contacts.

 

So distant contacts are not considered edges against the sky? Interesting.

[SCG_Wulfe]

4 minutes ago, =X51=VC_ said:

 

So distant contacts are not considered edges against the sky? Interesting.

 

They are, but the technique is very good at avoiding blurring into interior pixels (interior of the object as opposed to the edges). FXAA, I think, though not as perfect as MSAA in this regard,  is even a step up compared to what we had with the old AA

Edited May 22, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[TWC_NINja]

@QB.Creep  It was pretty confusing for a while with SteamVR SS. But basically, you're right... it now shows exactly what the res is per eye in SteamVR. 
I set my General setting to 100%, which is close to 2160x2160 and bumped it up to 110% in the Video section for IL2. Any higher and I loose the headroom to bump up other graphics settings in game. (I run a 2080S, btw)

[Creep]

@TWC_NINja i still have mine set up as bernard described above and i am happy with the distant contact spotting. i am going to continue playing around with it though. 

 

good to see you by the way! hope all is well.

Edited May 22, 2020 by QB.Creep

[TWC_NINja]

6 minutes ago, QB.Creep said:

good to see you by the way! hope all is well.

 

All's well, thank you. I'm just getting back into it after a long hiatus...

[=X51=VC_]

1 hour ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

 

They are, but the technique is very good at avoiding blurring into interior pixels (interior of the object as opposed to the edges). FXAA, I think, though not as perfect as MSAA in this regard,  is even a step up compared to what we had with the old AA

 

Ah that makes sense. So if the contact is smaller than a pixel, SS blurs it evenly and therefore hides it but MSAA blurs it outwards only, making it more visible?

[SCG_Wulfe]

10 minutes ago, =X51=VC_ said:

 

Ah that makes sense. So if the contact is smaller than a pixel, SS blurs it evenly and therefore hides it but MSAA blurs it outwards only, making it more visible?

 

Yep, FXAA attempts the same but it identifies edges based on depth. So it is still possible that a layer at the same depth as something else blends through the object instead of only the exterior edge. (So for example, multiple layers comprising an object at the same depth, it will blend those layers edges inside the object.)

 

In the case of preventing disappearing contacts due to AA, FXAA should still work quite a bit better than what we had. 

Edited May 22, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[=X51=VC_]

11 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

 

Yep, FXAA attempts the same but it identifies edges based on depth. So it is still possible that a layer at the same depth as something else blends through the object instead of only the exterior edge. (So for example, multiple layers comprising an object at the same depth, it will blend those layers edges inside the object.)

 

In the case of preventing disappearing contacts due to AA, FXAA should still work quite a bit better than what we had. 

 

I tested FXAA because I didn't realise the MSAA was new as well, I just knew the old AA was bad and used a fair bit of supersampling as well. Given that my rig should be able to handle 4x MSAA if I turn down the supersampling, I assume then FXAA is not really useful to me.

[SCG_Wulfe]

Just now, =X51=VC_ said:

 

I tested FXAA because I didn't realise the MSAA was new as well, I just knew the old AA was bad and used a fair bit of supersampling as well. Given that my rig should be able to handle 4x MSAA if I turn down the supersampling, I assume then FXAA is not really useful to me.

 

Yep if you can run it, you should do it. 

Based on my experiments, I don't think anyone can really properly support MSAA in VR without at least a 2080.

[=X51=VC_]

Just now, SCG_Wulfe said:

 

Yep if you can run it, you should do it. 

Based on my experiments, I don't think anyone can really properly support MSAA in VR without at least a 2080.

 

Good thing that's what I have then ? just need to re-evaluate how I was doing things before and tone down the supersampling.

[Alonzo]

2 hours ago, =X51=VC_ said:

I don't understand how MSAA can make spotting better if supersampling makes it worse. Doesn't MSAA apply a similar principle of looking at nearby pixels and crushing them together like you say, but just on edges instead of the whole image? Or am I misunderstanding how MSAA works?

 

I will try 4x MSAA with 100% SS in SteamVR. Before I ran 0x AA and 150% SS, so performance shouldn't be an issue. I felt spotting was OK but still looking for better, I want to make use of what this patch has brought if everyone says it's so good.

 

Oh, sorry, I was being very unclear, my fault. We've got two different kinds of things happening:

• In-game anti-aliasing, either FXAA or MSAA. This is intelligent, at least vaguely, and tries to avoid completely losing a contact. MSAA seems to help better with spotting than FXAA, but FXAA isn't bad. (MSAA is "multisample AA" which intelligently looks at pixels that might be on an edge of an object and then sampling them multiple times to reduce aliasing, hence 'multisample').
• VR headset supersampling, where we deliberately tell the game to render the entire image at a resolution higher than the HMD needs, then crunch the image down for the actual headset pixels. This is useful because the headset pixels are warped to fit the lenses, so a pixel is not exactly a pixel. HMDs always need a little extra.

That second one -- headset supersampling -- is the one that's bad for spotting because it smushes pixels a lot. But it also smooths the image immensely and helps with jaggies in the headset, much more than FXAA or MSAA. It's also killer on performance because it's a multiplier -- 20% more pixels in SteamVR is 20% worse performance. Because MSAA and FXAA are in the graphics pipeline and know a bit more about the image in the first place, they're more clever and not quite as heavy on performance.

 

Edit: I would recommend doing exactly what you said -- 4x MSAA, 100% SS SteamVR, then see how you like performance, then slowly increase SteamVR SS to improve jaggies (but be aware it's technically going to make spotting harder as you do so).

Edited May 22, 2020 by Alonzo

[DD_Crash]

40 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

 

Yep if you can run it, you should do it. 

Based on my experiments, I don't think anyone can really properly support MSAA in VR without at least a 2080.

Poo looks like I need a bigger boat graphics card.

[SCG_Wulfe]

14 minutes ago, DD_Crash said:

Poo looks like I need a bigger boat graphics card.

 

I'm right with ya... I might just wait for the 3080 at this point. 

[Dutch2]

Sorry I get a bit confused now. That 4xMSAA you are all talking about, is this, this setting in Startup

 

msaa = 4

 multisampling = 1

 

While multisampling is 0=disabled  1=enabled ❓ 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multisample_anti-aliasing 

 

 

[dburne]

9 minutes ago, Dutch2 said:

Sorry I get a bit confused now. That 4xMSAA you are all talking about, is this, this setting in Startup

 

msaa = 4

 multisampling = 1

 

While multisampling is 0=disabled  1=enabled ❓ 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multisample_anti-aliasing 

 

 

 

Just choose MSAA x4 in the GUI.

Simple.

[TWC_NINja]

2 minutes ago, Dutch2 said:

Sorry I get a bit confused now. That 4xMSAA you are all talking about, is this, this setting in Startup

 

msaa = 4

 multisampling = 1

 

While multisampling is 0=disabled  1=enabled ❓ 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multisample_anti-aliasing 

 

 

 

msaa = 1 (MSAA on)

msaa = 0 (MSAA off; FXAA on)

multisampling = 0 (disabled)

multisampling = 1 (2X AA)

multisampling = 2 (4X AA)

 

[=X51=VC_]

4 hours ago, Alonzo said:

I would recommend doing exactly what you said -- 4x MSAA, 100% SS SteamVR, then see how you like performance, then slowly increase SteamVR SS to improve jaggies (but be aware it's technically going to make spotting harder as you do so).

 

I did exactly that and I am tentatively happy with the result. I would say overall visual quality is similar to before (0x AA, 150% SS) but I run a 1st gen Vive so there's a limit to how good I can make things look. Spotting was hard to determine. My impression is that with 4x MSAA I can see distant contacts at same or higher altitude better, although sometimes they seem to fade in and out. Against the ground though I was struggling, I thought this was worse. It was an autumn map so everything was brown and that may have made it harder, but I felt that contacts were not as dark and sharp contrasting as they were for me before (which may make it easier in other conditions). Overall I think contacts are visible at longer ranges but are lighter and fuzzier, which is a double edged sword. But ID is way better. FPS is comfortably 90 in most conditions except very heavy combat.

 

I'll leave it there for a few days and see how it goes. I would like to see if I have enough performance overhead to add the new reflections into the mix.

Edited May 22, 2020 by =X51=VC_

[Lusekofte]

20 hours ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

 

Yep if you can run it, you should do it. 

Based on my experiments, I don't think anyone can really properly support MSAA in VR without at least a 2080.

Got a 1080 ti and use 2xmsaa

[Izel]

On 5/20/2020 at 11:55 AM, Wolfred said:

But i have to use 60hz refreshrate on my reverb, its super smooth but distorted, cause the left screen is bigger than right screen, newest win 10 update, wmr update, and steam vr update, holographic drivers, no mods no betas.

 

 

Don't you get strong headaches or ocular pain flying with the 60Hz distorted view? I do ?

[Lusekofte]

This is my settings,

My specs

Maxflightstick , MFG Crosswind Apache controlpanels intel Core i7-8700K Prosessor, ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming, S1151 Corsair Vengeance RGB DDR4 3200MHz 32GB, ASUS GeForce GTX 1080 Ti Turbo 11GBm Oculus Rift S.

I am very confused I find spotting easier with this setting MSAA on 2 

What do HHDR and SSAQ do?

*If *I use Open composite Steam VR settings do not apply , right?

Edited May 23, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[SCG_Wulfe]

50 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

This is my settings,

My specs

Maxflightstick , MFG Crosswind Apache controlpanels intel Core i7-8700K Prosessor, ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming, S1151 Corsair Vengeance RGB DDR4 3200MHz 32GB, ASUS GeForce GTX 1080 Ti Turbo 11GBm Oculus Rift S.

I am very confused I find spotting easier with this setting MSAA on 2 

What do HHDR and SSAQ do?

*If *I use Open composite Steam VR settings do not apply , right?

Yes, we are talking about MSAA in VR, I think you’d struggle with those settings in VR with a 1080ti. Maybe not though. No way I could them with a 1080.

Edited May 23, 2020 by SCG_Wulfe

[Lusekofte]

15 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

Yes, we are talking about MSAA in VR, I think you’d struggle with those settings in VR with a 1080ti. Maybe not though. No way I could them with a 1080.

Game is stutter free and fps on 60 with this. It run smoother now and prettier after patch

I gonne upgrade gpu when something better than 20 series arrive. And goggles no matter brand is at stoneage level. I wait out to a lighter much more advance come along

Edited May 23, 2020 by 216th_LuseKofte

[II/JG11_ATLAN_VR]

constant 60fps in game , nice graphics and stutter free, and better contact spotting, gtx1080ti pimax 5kplus

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by II/JG11ATLAN

[Bernard_IV]

You might be able to get a bit more by cutting down on the buildings options.