Thoughts on the aerodynamic penalty for .50" cal hits.

[Creep]

3 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

MG-131 has HEI shells, 50 cal has not. HEI shell ll damage the plane surface more. Its cannot be equal.

Do you think it makes sense that a single hit from MG131 with its very small HE component will create a severe drag penalty rendering the plane combat ineffective? Do you realize that dozens of hits from US .50 cal cause no such drag penalty? Also, do you play the game?

[Roland_HUNter]

17 minutes ago, QB.Creep said:

Do you think it makes sense that a single hit from MG131 with its very small HE component will create a severe drag penalty rendering the plane combat ineffective? Do you realize that dozens of hits from US .50 cal cause no such drag penalty? Also, do you play the game?

Did u see any tail loss or wing cut from 1 hit from the 30mm in the game? No. Its realistic? No.https://imgur.com/gallery/HkGqW

The devs choosed this kind of damge modell this time, they ll improve it, I'm sure of it.

[-SF-Disarray]

Do you know the condition of that Spitfire before that round hit it? Do you know how many shells hit that air-frame before that one? Is this the first round or the 10th? Was it a mission ready air-frame before it was selected for testing? Was it rejected for some defect? If it was rejected was it because it was structurally compromised? There are so many questions about this test footage that gets thrown around by you people like it is gospel. For the record I don't know the answer to any of these questions. Also, what dose the amount of damage a 30mm round do have to do with the question you were asked about the absurdly high effectiveness of the 13mm HE rounds?

 

At least we can agree that the devs did chose to put this DM into service. Why they chose to do it when there are these big, and frankly obvious, holes in it is beyond me. I suppose they could tell us why but they don't seem to be very talkative on this matter so I guess we may never know.

 

It would be nice to see the "C kill" data too but I could find no reference to any of the underlying data in that report aside from the fact that it is a thing that they measured.

Edited December 29, 2020 by -SF-Disarray

[Roland_HUNter]

8 minutes ago, -SF-Disarray said:

Do you know the condition of that Spitfire before that round hit it? Do you know how many shells hit that air-frame before that one? Is this the first round or the 10th? Was it a mission ready air-frame before it was selected for testing? Was it rejected for some defect? If it was rejected was it because it was structurally compromised? There are so many questions about this test footage that gets thrown around by you people like it is gospel. For the record I don't know the answer to any of these questions.

 

At least we can agree that the devs did chose to put this DM into service. Why they chose to do it when there are these big, and frankly obvious, holes in it is beyond me. I suppose they could tell us why but they don't seem to be very talkative on this matter so I guess we may never know.

 

It would be nice to see the "C kill" data too but I could find no reference to any of the underlying data in that report aside from the fact that it is a thing that they measured.

Boi there is a video on that link, when 1 30mm it the fully operational wing and destroy it. Are u missed that?!

same on the fuselage:
https://i.imgur.com/7hiQvJq.mp4

[Honza]

5 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

MG-131 has HEI shells, 50 cal has not. HEI shell ll damage the plane surface more. Its cannot be equal.

I hope youre aware that germans went from mid 44 with API ammo in 13mms as HE and HEI ammo was simply not powerful enough to harm later war fighters and bombers that had great, non wood/fabric construction. They abandoned HE fillers because they werent effective. So why its so effective ingame? When 1-2 hits make your plane flying dead duck? If they were that great IRL, they wouldnt have phased them out mid 44.
Meanwhile USAAF and NAVY sticked with AN/M2 .50 for whole war and it was good enough with API ammo which we still dont have, yet 13mms in G14, G6late and D9 are using ammo belts that werent officialy in service by mid 44. In late 44-45 scenarios. .50s were powerful enough to bring down german fighters without significantly long sustain fire. But here? after 70hits, if engine is intact or pilot. Plane remains controlable without slightest difference in performance.
And thats simply wrong, whole idea of levels of damage done is wrong from the beggining, we need specific wing parts that can be damaged, every single wing spar and panel of wing cover. Not like now where, hey, you have level 1 damage over there so its this penalty, oh wow, you've been hit by 13mm HE? Here, have lvl2 damage and 60kph penalty because one insignifficant round just crossed damage level to lvl2. 

[Creep]

2 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Did u see any tail loss or wing cut from 1 hit from the 30mm in the game? No. Its realistic? No.https://imgur.com/gallery/HkGqW

The devs choosed this kind of damge modell this time, they ll improve it, I'm sure of it.

I'm over here arguing that .50 should be slightly more effective than they are OR that MG131 should be slightly less effective than they are. You're arguing that 30mm should be more effective than they are. Do I have that right?

[-SF-Disarray]

1 hour ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Boi there is a video on that link, when 1 30mm it the fully operational wing and destroy it. Are u missed that?!

same on the fuselage:
https://i.imgur.com/7hiQvJq.mp4

 

So that's a 'no'? Ok, good. Just wanted to be sure we were all on the same page.

 

Any way, it sure would be nice if the DM were fixed.

[unreasonable]

3 hours ago, Cass said:

@unreasonable
thank you for finally explaining the mathematics behind those! Being trying to wrap my head around it for a while now.

 

I'd like to the "C" damage chart as well. I think the overall average rounds to fully kill  a plane with .50 cal probably isn't that far off in game. We see some very quick kills providing the right components are hit and there are outliers where a lot more rounds are needed.

 

The issue, and the reason for this thread, is that the .50s don't appear to do enough of the "B" and "C" damage categories and the exponential aerodynamic and structural damage you'd see from hitting the aircraft with 20/30+ rounds doesn't appear to be modelled properly. It's the fact that until you hit something, the target can fly unimpeded in a situation where it should be quite badly damaged.

 

@-[HRAF]Roland_HUNter

They shouldn't be equal no. But the difference between a 13mm HEI round and a 12.7mm AP round is not as pronounced as it is in the game. The HEI component isn't big enough to create the skin damage associated with 20mm+ and is largely there for it's incendiary proposes.

 

No problem! I would be good to find the other tests the report mentions, but if copies still exist they do not seem to be online.  I am unconvinced that the guns do not do enough B damage. As for the aerodynamic issues: the US report explicitly does not address these. In fact it is remarkably hard to find any documentation that would help solve this question: at least we have not seen it here yet.  If I had to make a decision I would tone down the HE rather than boosting the AP in this respect.

 

On the B kill issue: in the report A kills are those that happen within 5 minutes of being hit,  so for fighters these would be mostly PKs plus loss of engine power or control, or fires and explosions.  B kills are any damage that would prevent the target returning to base if it takes more than 2 hours to do so (and includes the A kills). Apart from the A kills, the B kills would be mostly any loss of fluids that lead to eventual engine failure, plus some other mechanical damage leading to same.  Two hours is a bit of a stretch for testing, even in RL not a criterion you could use for a variety of short range fighters, but I think we can understand the concept as failure to RTB within normal operational radius. 

 

I suspect - not having done large scale, systematic testing on 50 cals with the most recent DM - that the 50 cals do plenty of B damage. People just do not identify them as kills as most planes that get hit in MP are downed within 5 minutes for a variety of game reasons. Pretty much any fighter that ends up streaming fuel, coolant or oil will be a B kill in the game and many of the videos shown by people complaining about planes flying on and not dying have been obvious B kills after the first few hits. 

 

 Just to compare the numbers, the B kill p for the P-47 test in the report was 0.037  so:

 

1-0.037 = 0.963 the p of not being a B kill  after one hit

 

0.963^10 = 0.686 the p of not being a B kill after ten hits, p 0.314 of being a B kill if hit 10 times. Say ~30% for 10 hits

 

0.963^19 = 0.489 the p of not being a B kill  after nineteen hits,  p 0.511 of being B kill if hit 19 times.   Say ~50% for 19 hits

 

[MeoW.Scharfi]

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by MeoW.Scharfi

[Bremspropeller]

Looks like now is a good time for flying LW

[MeoW.Scharfi]

 That's above is a bug clearly but i made a separate post.

 

But I agree with @QB.Creep

The 50s are way too weak compared to 131(13mm)

I mean look at this:   

 

 

 (ignore the collision at the end, the collision system is inconsistent, my wingman rammed a Me262 in a headon and he died meanwhile the 262 kept flying)

(keep also in mind that i only recieved damage by the 2x 13mm bullets and not by the collision itself  http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/log/6255170/?tour=67 here damage log and look at the time, no damage received after)

 

Also i want to add that i have another example without a collision with i get hit by 2x 13mm as well and had the same or even worse problems to hold it steady.

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

That Bf109G14 tapped me in the wing with 13mm, only 2 bullets hit, from his flight angle he also couldnt make more bullets into the target than these two 13mm bullets.

It also didn't make the 30mm hitsound or the thic cloud into the wing which indicates that i got hit by 30mm. His loadout was 13mm and 30mm.

http://il2stat.aviaskins.com:8008/en/sortie/6255085/?tour=67

 

 

After he hit me with 2 13mm bullets in the wing of the P47

 

i had massive problems to hold the plane steady and had to give full stick pressure to the left to make it home somehow.

 

BY 2 BULLETS OF MG131(13mm)! One of the biggest wing areas get shreddered like that by 13mm? Na that isn't believable at all.

[ACG_Cass]

Clearly bad design choice making the 47 wing out of wicker. The recent update that changed the 13mm belt from just HE to HE/AP has helped. But that's only because if you're hit by AP you aren't affected at all vs HE rendering your plane useless.

 

If AP is this borked and changing it is going to screw up the WW1 DM then perhaps don't model AP in WW2. Downsize a HE round until it has the desired effect. If underneath the hood you are actually modelling is a 7.62 round with a small amount of HE but it gives the right result for a .50 then I don't think you'd hear any complaints from anyone (obviously ridiculous, loads of people would still complain). It's either that or model all the component's, which is probably a massive job. I know we can't have the 12.7mm with HE because when you put 8 of those on the P47 it ends everything in front of it.

 

It's so frustrating as it spoils both sides for most people who actually enjoy the fight. I know there are plenty of people out there who love to get kills no matter what. But for me, being out flown and riddled by .50s only to land a lucky 20mm while flying a plane that definitely shouldn't be flying right makes me feel dirty and sad.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Cass

[Honza]

1 hour ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

 

 

 

 

Nice example of how useless is basic area level damage in air sim game.... that hit with 20mm near the end (4:15) into the right wing while damaging left wing root.....

Edited December 29, 2020 by =DMD=Honza

[Roland_HUNter]

I tested it myself.
And oh boi. You were right ladies and gentlemen.
I achieved this damage.....with ONLY

9000 bullets from 50 cal.

And I recognised an another bug:

If you hit the tail fuselage "to many times" the game stop registering the hits, the bullets are just going through.
Oh and no radiator or oil damage, no fuel tank on fire or engine, only pilot kill if I concentrated on the upper fuselage from the tail.

[NIK14]

Your aiming must get better if you want kills with the 50s.....

On 12/29/2020 at 4:49 PM, Cass said:

It's so frustrating as it spoils both sides for most people who actually enjoy the fight. I know there are plenty of people out there who love to get kills no matter what. But for me, being out flown and riddled by .50s only to land a lucky 20mm while flying a plane that definitely shouldn't be flying right makes me feel dirty and sad.

 

I dare say this is the mindset of most fans of il-2 BOX...somehow this majority is not being heard however.

On 12/29/2020 at 3:48 PM, Bremspropeller said:

Looks like now is a good time for flying LW

 

Hasn't it been since day one?

Think about it...eastern front, no planes could hang with LW up high...now we have the planes but the guns are cr@p, pretty ironic.

Is there a fear that if LW flyers get fed up the genre will perish, so they must be pleased and every novice has to feel like Hartmann?

[357th_KW]

It’s funny, I’m so used to the guns being terrible that while things were bugged, I was just thinking I was having some bad luck.  Now that the it’s been “fixed” I’m left feeling like it really made very little practical difference.

 

One of these was pre-hot fix and one post.

 

https://combatbox.net/en/sortie/log/1082878/?tour=29
https://combatbox.net/en/sortie/log/1080737/?tour=29

 

Either way 90% of the time, you kill the pilot and win the fight, or you don’t and they get away or kill you.

[Roland_HUNter]

Yep, now its fixed. Easy to give: PK, to ignite fuel tank, very easy to cut the outer wing and even easy to wing cut(around half of the wing) a 109.
1 problem is still in the game: the uranium thick 109 tail ?

[Creep]

1 hour ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Yep, now its fixed. Easy to give: PK, to ignite fuel tank, very easy to cut the outer wing and even easy to wing cut(around half of the wing) a 109.
1 problem is still in the game: the uranium thick 109 tail ?

no, there is more than one problem - .50s don't do anything to the aerodynamics of the plane they hit, whereas a single round from the MG131 causes a severe drag penalty and in some cases makes the plane unflyable

[Roland_HUNter]

9 hours ago, QB.Creep said:

no, there is more than one problem - .50s don't do anything to the aerodynamics of the plane they hit, whereas a single round from the MG131 causes a severe drag penalty and in some cases makes the plane unflyable

AP-->Going trough.
HE--->Surface dmg.

[354thFG_Rails]

3 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

AP-->Going trough.
HE--->Surface dmg.

Unless it's the tail of the 109. Then AP is not going through.

[-SF-Disarray]

4 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

AP-->Going trough.
HE--->Surface dmg.

 

While this is true, in general, it is a gross over simplification of what is happening. 1 13mm HE round used by the Germans packs all of 1 gram of HE. But in game that 1 gram is doing damage over preposterously large sections of skin. Even 20mm HE rounds are causing damage over sections that seems too much. 1 20mm HE round to the wing tip of a 47, for example, will damage the whole wing to the root. None of this lines up with photographic evidence of impacts from these weapons. 13mm HE rounds were found to be so ineffective they swapped them for incendiary rounds mid war and while 20mm HE rounds were effective, they would blow a dinner plate sized hole in a plane, not shred the whole wing.

 

While AP dose hit and go through the skin of the plane that isn't the end of things. Once it is on the inside it keeps breaking things. This doesn't seem to be happening, at least I haven't seen any evidence of this occurring with any great frequency. 190D's seem to be perfectly capable of fighting with one aileron dead.190's, 109's and even 110's seem perfectly capable of fighting on missing large sections of the plane, flaps and elevators being shot off don't seem to be that big of an issue for them. Just the other day I zipped up a 190A8 removing the left hand elevator and stab only to watch as it pulled a 5 G turn like it is a perfectly normal thing for a plane to do when missing critical components. Arguably this is a strict FM issue and nothing to do with AP .50 rounds, and there are more issues along these lines as well. But this may be contributory to the perception that these rather powerful rounds aren't doing any real damage.

[357th_KW]

34 minutes ago, -SF-Disarray said:

While AP dose hit and go through the skin of the plane that isn't the end of things. Once it is on the inside it keeps breaking things. This doesn't seem to be happening, at least I haven't seen any evidence of this occurring with any great frequency. 190D's seem to be perfectly capable of fighting with one aileron dead.190's, 109's and even 110's seem perfectly capable of fighting on missing large sections of the plane, flaps and elevators being shot off don't seem to be that big of an issue for them. Just the other day I zipped up a 190A8 removing the left hand elevator and stab only to watch as it pulled a 5 G turn like it is a perfectly normal thing for a plane to do when missing critical components. Arguably this is a strict FM issue and nothing to do with AP .50 rounds, and there are more issues along these lines as well. But this may be contributory to the perception that these rather powerful rounds aren't doing any real damage.

We just had this experience the other day.  After dragging and bagging some Allied fighters, my wingman’s D9 was missing an entire horizontal stab and elevator.  He didn’t even notice until we pointed it out to him, and proceeded to do a series of aerobatics on the way back to base with no negative flying characteristics.

[Creep]

7 hours ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

AP-->Going trough.
HE--->Surface dmg.

By this logic, I should be able to put 1,000 rounds of .50 cal through the wings of a 109 with no drag penalty. 
Keep your head in the sand if that's what makes you happy I guess? ?‍♂️

[ACG_Cass]

@VBF-12_KWIf you have the track of that, report it in the bug forum. Pretty sure that was supposed to be fixed so they will want to know if it's back.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Cass

[-SF-Disarray]

That bug they fixed was for the vert stab I think

[Roland_HUNter]

5 minutes ago, QB.Creep said:

By this logic, I should be able to put 1,000 rounds of .50 cal through the wings of a 109 with no drag penalty. 
Keep your head in the sand if that's what makes you happy I guess? ?‍♂️

You said that not me. I guess.
As now in the game, if enough AP going through, u cut the wing. U should make surface damage example when u hit the wing from under-behind and the bullets coming out from the upper part of the wing. That should make a lots of surface damage.(the bullets should tear the surface like the m16 doing in the human body-->Entrance just a hole,  outlet teared wound)

[-SF-Disarray]

They should, yes. But there doesn't seem to be any real speed loss from AP rounds hitting a plane. That is one of the major complaints this thread has been going on about for the last 7 months. You can even blow major sections of planes off to no appreciable effect; though this may be a failing of the FM rather than an issue with the AP DM. Go back through the pages of this thread and you can find examples of planes taking absurd punishment from AP .50 rounds to little or no effect on their speed or maneuverability. In short, you have identified the problem. Congratulations.

[Creep]

On 1/3/2021 at 4:32 PM, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

That should make a lots of surface damage.

Should being the operative word. There is no appreciable drag penalty in-game when many M2 .50 rounds hit the wing surfaces of an aircraft.

Edited January 5, 2021 by QB.Creep

[Bremspropeller]

Interesting footage of P-38 shooting down a B-24 which had been abandonned by it's crew:

 

 

[-SF-Disarray]

That is interesting, though I wish there wasn't a cut between the attack and the plane in the water. Maybe someone knows of a longer cut of this film? Also, I don't think that was a P-38 doing the shooting. If you look at the tracers from the rounds converging they are coming in from a much wider angle than you would see with the tight packed gun arrangement of a P-38. At a guess I'd say a P-51 is doing the shooting based on the volume of fire that can be observed.

[[DBS]Browning]

On 1/16/2021 at 6:00 PM, -SF-Disarray said:

That is interesting, though I wish there wasn't a cut between the attack and the plane in the water. Maybe someone knows of a longer cut of this film? Also, I don't think that was a P-38 doing the shooting. If you look at the tracers from the rounds converging they are coming in from a much wider angle than you would see with the tight packed gun arrangement of a P-38. At a guess I'd say a P-51 is doing the shooting based on the volume of fire that can be observed.

 

I suspect this is an illusion from the camera being between the guns. I see what look like cannon HE flashes, which would suggest P-38.

[unreasonable]

Just now, [DBS]Browning said:

 

I suspect this is an illusion from the camera being between the guns. I see what look like cannon HE flashes, which would suggest P-38.

 

I agree. Apart from it being a bit unlikely that the P-38 in the start of the film was flying with a P-51, many of the flashes look far too big for .50 cal API. eg: on the fuselage at 0.59

 

 

 

[Floppy_Sock]

4 hours ago, unreasonable said:

 

I agree. Apart from it being a bit unlikely that the P-38 in the start of the film was flying with a P-51, many of the flashes look far too big for .50 cal API. eg: on the fuselage at 0.59

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately not sure which incendiary round is being fired in this video but you'll see plenty of impact flashes. Some that are surprisingly bug. 

 

 

 

Don't know what vehicle is being hit here and it's hard to tell exactly how big the flash is because of the smoke, but just to illustrate my point, one you can see reaching from the b pillar to the d pillar. I could be convinced the above video it's still just 50's. Especially because it seems like there's considerable convergence happening. ?‍♂️

 

[JtD]

If it is a standard gun camera, it can't be a P-38, because there the camera was installed right below the guns in the centre. What we have is a video, where gun tracers come in from left and right, but the ones from the left are clearly more visible (therefore enter the field of view earlier than the ones from the right). It suggests a gun camera position close to and inboard of the left guns in a wing position. It matches a P-51, where the camera was installed in the left wheel well.

 

The size of the flashes are are not out of the ordinary for 0.50 incendiary rounds.

 

I'd figure this incident is documented somewhere in unit records so a little bit of research should make it possible to know for sure.

[unreasonable]

Well here is the full text from the Youtube posting of this film.

 

 A U.S. Army Air Force pilot shoots down a B-24 after its crew bails out over the Philippines in World War II Camera aboard the P-38 Lightning aircraft of Lieutenant Fritsch, 44th Fighter Squadron, US 13th Air Force, shows another P-38 from his squadron in flight ahead of him. The scene then shifts to view from his P-38 camera of a US Army Air Forces B-24 Liberator bomber in distress. The bomber crew bails out. Several of their parachutes are seen opening. Lt. Fritsch then proceeds to fire on the abandoned B-24. Tracers can be seen as Lt. Fritsch fires at the bomber.. Then smoke is seen rising from water where the bomber crashed. Location: Philippines. Date: July 1945.

 

Edit: I have to assume that the people at the Critical Past website got the information off the introductory slide from the original film.  

Edited January 18, 2021 by unreasonable

[-332FG-SGTSAUSAGE138]

I fly the P47 often and I often find that even a few hits from an 8mm mg (usually on bombers) will cause a large amount of drag and seriously hinder the flight characteristics of the plane. It doesn't really make sense that a few 8mm holes in a wing as large as the 47's would make much difference if any at all. I usually attack bombers from higher alt at high speed and slash attack them but a few hits to the wing will cause my plane to fly very poorly.

 

[CountZero]

[Creep]

 

[354thFG_Panda_]

[=_=HeavenAndClouds]