anyone gonna fly the ju88c6 in mp?

[Bremspropeller]

On 5/2/2020 at 12:23 AM, III/JG53Frankyboy said:

about a 3 MG151 armament Option:

i have seen Pictures where the nose MG-FF was replaced by a MG151 , easy to see by ist longer Barrel. But i NEVER saw those longer barrels aka MG151 in the gondola !

 

and btw, give the 88A-4 a MG-FF Option (that would remove  the bombsight !) and it would be far superiour over the C-6 in ground attack IMHO

 

"Bloody Biscay" by Cris Goss 

 

page 11 (C-6)

page 98 (C-6)

page 113 (R-2)

 

 

On 6/6/2021 at 2:05 PM, BlitzPig_EL said:

It has no under wing racks.  And it does carry a reduced bomb load internally.  Remember it was intended as a long range heavy fighter and marine patrol aircraft, hence, fuel tanks took up much of the available space in the bomb bays.

 

It should be little more complicated than that. First, it has the same wing as the A-4, so there's no reason why it couldn't fit racks.

And there's a KG 40 bird in "Bloody Biscay" (on page 54) with an external tank fitted on the inboard left wing.

 

I think it's probably safer to say it was seldomly fitted with racks as those were too draggy and too heavy for the mission.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by Bremspropeller

[BlitzPig_EL]

Yes, I was wrong about the racks.

[Chief_Mouser]

I wish that we could have a Biscay map - just for us masochists. Cornwall/Devon to Santander and everything in between. And the Wellington, Hampden, Whitley, Beaufighter, Beaufort, Hudson, Halifax, Sunderland, Catalina, B-17,  B-24 Liberator, Fw200 Condor, Heinkel He177 and more... not going to happen, too many engines and gunners ?.

For SP I would be quite happy pootling about over the ocean for hours on end searching for U-boats and blockade runners and trying to avoid enemy aircraft.

Multiplayer... might not be so popular.

Cheers

[Denum]

Definitely flying it.

 

My favorite mission in the Ju88 now is doing shipping strikes on Kuban.

 

Now I get to use the C6 and hit rail depots!

I just need a rainy low ceiling map on FVP and I'll be in a place of pure comfort. 

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

"Bloody Biscay" by Cris Goss 

 

page 11 (C-6)

page 98 (C-6)

page 113 (R-2)

 

Any references in that book about when the MG 151/20 started being fitted?

[ScotsmanFlyingscotsman]

May as well try our luck, the Ju-88 was fast, so we may be able to give the fighters a scare, light on fuel and in a corner....may as well turn and show them your smile.

Surely it would also give the B-25 a bad day, and I WANT to get back at the PE-2, who's gunners are all hot shots. Yeh why not

[Thad]

On 4/29/2020 at 7:07 PM, LuseKofte said:

I will fly this monstrous plane whatever it carries. And a lot of red players will be grateful for the freekills they get

Ah... seeee, there is always a silver lining in war. ?

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

Any references in that book about when the MG 151/20 started being fitted?

 

Haven't been able to find anything quickly. Maybe somebody else could chime in.

 

 

Currently sifting through Sönke Neitzel's dissertation "Der Einsatz der deutschen Luftwaffe über dem Atlantik und der Nordsee 1939-1945".

 

One interesting note ref. bomb-racks so far:

p. 143 / note 264: Starting in June '43, 900l tanks could be carried, bumping mission-radius from 900km to 1500km.

Based on a pilot-report, flying two missions in June '43 with a 900l tank.

[Juri_JS]

3 hours ago, 216th_Cat said:

I wish that we could have a Biscay map - just for us masochists. Cornwall/Devon to Santander and everything in between. And the Wellington, Hampden, Whitley, Beaufighter, Beaufort, Hudson, Halifax, Sunderland, Catalina, B-17,  B-24 Liberator, Fw200 Condor, Heinkel He177 and more... not going to happen, too many engines and gunners ?.

For SP I would be quite happy pootling about over the ocean for hours on end searching for U-boats and blockade runners and trying to avoid enemy aircraft.

Multiplayer... might not be so popular.

Cheers

The devs could just add an ocean-only map, like the one we had in Il-2 1946. It could be used for all kinds of maritime scenarios from the Bay of Biscay to the Barent Sea. Of course all missions would be airstarts, but that's OK for me.

[NightFighter]

I don't know the exact dates about the MG 151 being fitted, but I know that they were definitely fitted on some aircraft in 1943.

 

 According to page 122 in Junkers Ju 88 by Ron Mackay, "The nose armament of three 7.92mm MG 17 machine guns and  a single 20mm MG-FF cannon (the latter subsequently displaced on some aircraft by an MG151/20mm cannon-calibre variation)..."

 

 

On page 126, you can see this photo of a Ju 88C-6 with what appears to be the extended barrel of an MG151/20mm cannon in the nose. The photo description reads "... Ju-88C-6's belonging to V/KG40 are lining up for take-off on September 19, 1943..."

 

 

Here is also a diagram of the MG151/20mm cannon being fitted inside the Ju 88C-6

 

Hope this helps in any way.

Edited September 11, 2021 by NightFighter

[Bremspropeller]

@LukeFF

 

Quoting Neitzel's aformentioned book (p.193 / note 291*):

 

The MG/FF was replaced by the MG151/20 from July '43 onwards.

 

Also cited and probably of interest may be:

Coastal Coammand Tactical Memorandum Part I, No. 1/44.

24th May 1944: Air Fighting Tactics for A/U Aircraft (PRO, AIR 15/304)

 

Ju 88R-2 and G-1 starting in August '43 and January '44 respectively (p.199 / note 307).

 

___

* citing:

Previous A.I. (K) Report No. 305C/1943, Weekly Intelligence Summaries, No. 205, 7.8.1943 (PRO, AIR 22/78)

[Avimimus]

8 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

@LukeFF

 

Quoting Neitzel's aformentioned book (p.193 / note 291*):

 

The MG/FF was replaced by the MG151/20 from July '43 onwards.

 

Just for clarity - that is the non-gondola guns? Or all three guns? ...and officially, or as field mods?

[357th_KW]

11 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

The devs could just add an ocean-only map, like the one we had in Il-2 1946. It could be used for all kinds of maritime scenarios from the Bay of Biscay to the Barent Sea. Of course all missions would be airstarts, but that's OK for me.

It seems like there are a lot of potentially interesting maritime focused scenarios, where you could build a map that was mostly ocean with just a bit of land.  A Brittany map could contain RAF Portreath (248 squadron Mosquitos) and all the rest of 19 groups bases, along with Brest (infamous submarine base) and Lorient (ZG1’s C6’s).  The map would be fairly large, but mostly water.  
 

Another interesting possibility would be a Banff-Stavanger map - some Norwegian fjords (home to JG5’s G14’s and A8’s) and a bit of Scotland where the Beaufighters, Mosquitos, and Mustangs of the Banff strike wing were based out of.

[ZachariasX]

12 hours ago, NightFighter said:

Hope this helps in any way.

The guns are tilted downwards. Are they meant for strafing primarily? Against aircraft, wouldn’t one put them in firing straight ahead or on a slight upward angle?

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

[Bremspropeller]

5 hours ago, Avimimus said:

Just for clarity - that is the non-gondola guns? Or all three guns? ...and officially, or as field mods?

 

One in the nose, two in the BoLa. All reaplacing the MG/FF that were there.

 

1 hour ago, VBF-12_KW said:

It seems like there are a lot of potentially interesting maritime focused scenarios, where you could build a map that was mostly ocean with just a bit of land.  A Brittany map could contain RAF Portreath (248 squadron Mosquitos) and all the rest of 19 groups bases, along with Brest (infamous submarine base) and Lorient (ZG1’s C6’s).  The map would be fairly large, but mostly water.  

 

That's a great idea. If it came with all the right airplanes and AI asstes, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

 

 

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

From the Pics so far we get 6 Guns, 5 of which could be 20mm of either kind. That's pretty nice.

We get 2 Bomb Racks as well, which will at least 500kg Bombs, so 1.5 tons total at least, maybe even SC1000 and SC1800.

It's gonna fare well in MP and fit my flying style perfectly.

[Bremspropeller]

31 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

From the Pics so far we get 6 Guns, 5 of which could be 20mm of either kind. That's pretty nice.

 

Unless flying a G-1 (and later) with the 4x20mm Bodenwanne, the max amount of 20mm you'll get in the Ju 88 is three, plus three MG 17s.

Fitting Schräge Musik, that'll give you an additional one or two 20mm, firing upwards.

 

Sou you'll end up with 75% the firepower of a Mossie. In a larger, slower airplane with 100% additional crew and about 30% less installed power.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

15 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Unless flying a G-1 (and later) with the 4x20mm Bodenwanne, the max amount of 20mm you'll get in the Ju 88 is three, plus three MG 17s.

Fitting Schräge Musik, that'll give you an additional one or two 20mm, firing upwards.

 

Sou you'll end up with 75% the firepower of a Mossie. In a larger, slower airplane with 100% additional crew and about 30% less installed power.

But it's gonna be there for Battle of Moscow and I'd rather be in a C-6 against and I-16 than on foot because the Mossie hasn't been invented yet.

[Bremspropeller]

6 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

But it's gonna be there for Battle of Moscow and I'd rather be in a C-6 against and I-16 than on foot because the Mossie hasn't been invented yet.

 

Against the I-16 the Ju 88A is "fighter" enough in that sense.

 

By the time of the Battle of Moscow, PR Mossies were flying recce missions over France.

The contemporary "Zerstörer" in RAF was the Beaufighter, which also outperformed the C-6. Even though not by the same margin as the FB VI.

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

@BremspropellerI just googled "Neighsayer". I wish I hadn't.

[Bremspropeller]

You should google more. ?

[Lusekofte]

It is coming with the Normandy map. I guess we will have versions up to that date.

I am not very educated in the matter I just like shnellbobers of all brands. 

And if you care not for virtual death. Nothing really stop you from flying it

[BlitzPig_EL]

The Kuban map should provide ample opportunities for mission makers to exploit the anti shipping capabilities of the C6.

 

A Scotland/Norway map done to proper scale, like the others in this series, would be fine for single player, but I suspect not wildly popular simply because of the flight times involved.  For multiplayer it would be a "no go" for most.

 

Still, the coast of Norway, rendered in this engine would be a beautiful thing to fly over.

[Avimimus]

5 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

One in the nose, two in the BoLa. All reaplacing the MG/FF that were there.

 

Ah... interesting. So the MG-FF becomes is obsolete after July 1943...

 

The confusion comes from the fact that some crews were replacing their nose mounted MG-FF with an MG-151/20 earlier (while keeping the Bola MG-FF). So Luke-FF will still need a date for that process beginning I suppose

 

But it is interesting that BoN (and BoBP) probably shouldn't have the MG-FF... while BoK would!

 

3 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Unless flying a G-1 (and later) with the 4x20mm Bodenwanne, the max amount of 20mm you'll get in the Ju 88 is three, plus three MG 17s.

Fitting Schräge Musik, that'll give you an additional one or two 20mm, firing upwards.

 

Sou you'll end up with 75% the firepower of a Mossie. In a larger, slower airplane with 100% additional crew and about 30% less installed power.

 

Yup ...and 22% heavier with 28% more wing area (so a lower wing loading)...

 

I suppose the one other benefit is the existence of a rear-gunner - you forgot about that  So it is five 7.92mm (two of which are flexible) and three 20mm... also, if we had the Schräge Musik (which we won't), they sometimes used more than two 20mm cannons in the early installations.

 

7 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

The guns are tilted downwards. Are they meant for strafing primarily? Against aircraft, wouldn’t one put them in firing straight ahead or on a slight upward angle?

 

Yes - it appears so - although I haven't seen any research so far that confirms the intent your observations would seem to be correct.

 

You can try it out in Il-2 Desert Wings... it does make strafing easier - although downward visibility is a bit difficult (so it changes how one conducts attack runs - with the ground target staying above the gunsight initially in my experience). The big downside is that control surfaces tend to get damaged/jammed in Desert Wings during such attacks (if anti-aircraft fire is encountered). It'll be interesting to compare the flight models and damage models for this plane - although Desert Wings does the shorter wingspan C-2 & C-4... not the later C-6.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Avimimus

[Bremspropeller]

A lightly loaded G-1 could give the Mossie a good run for it's money, as proven by an episode in Roland Beaumont's "Tempest over Europe".

One has to take note, however, that both aircraft seldomly met under these circumstances.

 

9 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

Ah... interesting. So the MG-FF becomes is obsolete after July 1943...

 

The confusion comes from the fact that some crews were replacing their nose mounted MG-FF with an MG-151/20 earlier (while keeping the Bola MG-FF). So Luke-FF will still need a date for that process beginning I suppose

 

I haven't found anything more specific about the topic so far.

Maybe a Ju 88 expert could chime in.

 

9 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

I suppose the one other benefit is the existence of a rear-gunner - you forgot about that  

 

Nah, I'd rather leave the gunner at home and save the weight or have it replaced by fuel and more powerful engines.

I'm more in tune with the original "Schnellbomber" concept. The Brits got it right with the Mossie.

 

Kind of like the german night-fighters claiming they'll need at least three people aboard a night-fighter, when the Brits did just fine and dandy with two aboard the Mossie...

Edited September 12, 2021 by Bremspropeller

[Avimimus]

14 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Kind of like the german night-fighters claiming they'll need at least three people aboard a night-fighter, when the Brits did just fine and dandy with two aboard the Mossie...

 

Usually, but I've heard that the PRU Mossies had a Gremlin on board... so that makes three crew. ?

[Bremspropeller]

1 minute ago, Avimimus said:

Usually, but I've heard that the PRU Mossies had a Gremlin on board... so that makes three crew. ?

 

You should be fine there - unless he's getting wet or fed past midnight...

[Irishratticus72]

57 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

You should be fine there - unless he's getting wet or fed past midnight...

With the  low heights some of those PRUs flew at, I`m not surprised he`s wetting himself.

 

[CountZero]

In MP if you have Me-410 why would you take Ju-88C6, 410 is faster, have better bomb load, and most importantly it has better rear gunners, 2x13mm, take 20% fuel and you can turn with it like 110s do now. Ju-88C6 is maybe better then Ju88A4, only because you can destroy factorys, harbors and so on with guns in this game so you dont need bombs, but compared to 410, why would anyone pick other ground attacker.

 

Regarding Mosquito, it dont have rear gunners, it wont be popular in MP, it will probably be used less then any other allied ga, P-38 can do anything better and have more bombs, and for any improvment in GA B-26 or B-25 should come.

 

BoN 410 is great improvment for MP for axis, ju-88c6 not mutch and 234 will be limited so its just another SP only thing.

Edited September 12, 2021 by CountZero

[NightFighter]

@ZachariasX and @Avimimus, I do think that the guns were angled downward mainly for attacking ground targets, that way the large plane did not have to enter such as steep dive, however, I have not seen that explicitly stated. I don't know if they were angled differently for mission types, but in the Ju 88C-6 german manual, there is a diagram of the guns being angled horizontally, but again, I don't know if this was just easier to draw for the artist or if the guns were actually in this arrangement.

 

On the Ju88G-1 series, the 20mm cannons were housed in an underbody tray, and they were also at a downward angle.

Edited September 12, 2021 by NightFighter

[SYN_Ricky]

1 hour ago, CountZero said:

In MP if you have Me-410 why would you take Ju-88C6, 410 is faster, have better bomb load, and most importantly it has better rear gunners, 2x13mm, take 20% fuel and you can turn with it like 110s do now. Ju-88C6 is maybe better then Ju88A4, only because you can destroy factorys, harbors and so on with guns in this game so you dont need bombs, but compared to 410, why would anyone pick other ground attacker.

 

Regarding Mosquito, it dont have rear gunners, it wont be popular in MP, it will probably be used less then any other allied ga, P-38 can do anything better and have more bombs, and for any improvment in GA B-26 or B-25 should come.

 

BoN 410 is great improvment for MP for axis, ju-88c6 not mutch and 234 will be limited so its just another SP only thing.

While I quite agree with your conclusions, some people don't always fly multiplayer only thinking about taking the most efficient or best planes, they just want to fly a plane they enjoy and that is historically accurate with the mission theme.

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, CountZero said:

In MP if you have Me-410 why would you take Ju-88C6, 410 is faster, have better bomb load, and most importantly it has better rear gunners, 2x13mm, take 20% fuel and you can turn with it like 110s do now. Ju-88C6 is maybe better then Ju88A4, only because you can destroy factorys, harbors and so on with guns in this game so you dont need bombs, but compared to 410, why would anyone pick other ground attacker.

 

Regarding Mosquito, it dont have rear gunners, it wont be popular in MP, it will probably be used less then any other allied ga, P-38 can do anything better and have more bombs, and for any improvment in GA B-26 or B-25 should come.

 

BoN 410 is great improvment for MP for axis, ju-88c6 not mutch and 234 will be limited so its just another SP only thing.

 

Hmm.... well this assumes that all servers allow the Me-410... so BoBP or BoN only... for earlier war servers it is more realistic to compare the Ju-88C to the Bf-110... 

 

As for the Mosquito - the machine guns have lower calibres but, in return, it quadruples the 20mm armament when compared to the P-38... also, if the P-38 is limited to historic loadouts...

 

 

13 minutes ago, NightFighter said:

On the Ju88G-1 series, the 20mm cannons were housed in an underbody tray, and they were also at a downward angle.

 

Interesting!

Edited September 12, 2021 by Avimimus

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

2 hours ago, CountZero said:

Snip

The Me-410 will only be available in late Planesets, the C-6 is pretty much available starting in 1941.  Me-410 will be better in BoN Context, but in BoM, BoS and BoK the Ju-88C-6 is better by default, because there is no Me-410.

 

[Bremspropeller]

It's hard to tell, but it seems they're angled down by maybe 2°

 

[Juri_JS]

I always thought that the guns were slightly angled to compensate the tail down flying position of the Ju-88.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

The guns seem to be angled down to about 5º

[ZachariasX]

3 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

I always thought that the guns were slightly angled to compensate the tail down flying position of the Ju-88.

They much rather should point up 5 deg. That‘s free alpha if you were to shoot aircraft. 

[Guest deleted@83466]

4 hours ago, ZachariasX said:

They much rather should point up 5 deg. That‘s free alpha if you were to shoot aircraft. 

Probably designed that way to attack level bombers, requiring little deflection in that axis, and added benefit for strafing.

Edited September 13, 2021 by SeaSerpent

[ZachariasX]

That would make sense as a compromise. Sunderlands and Catalinas would be targets. I doubt a Ju88 pilot would be too much tempted to take on a Mosqito anyway in such a scenario.