Invulnerable water coolers

[Bilbo_Baggins]

Not sure how this got through testing, but just a heads up that water coolers are invulnerable now. Can take a blown water radiator and stream coolant at prolonged high power with no overheat.

 

First noticed it when P51 AI flew forever fighting with blown water coolers, then tested with 4x I-16 planes shooting my P51 and was then able to exploit it to climb up and fly on with no problem. 

 

Video: https://streamable.com/4ocl59

 

Regards

 

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Bilbo_Baggins

[Jason_Williams]

If it's a real bug report it in the topic about the update, otherwise we probably won't see it.

 

Jason

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

P-51 water radiator is vulnerable, depending on the amount of hits and which weapon or fragment hit it will have different leak rate determining how much time it will be able to sustain engine cooling.

For example I took a P-51 and I got shot by an I-16 with only ShKAS, my radiator was hit so I ran away and started counting time.

At 8 minutes since the leak started the cooling system began losing efficiency, water temperature climbed to 110°C.
At 16 minutes water temperature was 125°C, radiator was fully opened.
At 19 minutes engine overheat message came up.
At 26 minutes the engine seized.

So it is vulnerable, in this case it took a good while for the engine to die because it was a small hit. I don't know how much time exactly it would take for the entire P-51 coolant supply to drain enough to cause an engine stoppage from a couple 7.62mm hits, that I can't answer.
 

[II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson]

1 hour ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

P-51 water radiator is vulnerable, depending on the amount of hits and which weapon or fragment hit it will have different leak rate determining how much time it will be able to sustain engine cooling.

For example I took a P-51 and I got shot by an I-16 with only ShKAS, my radiator was hit so I ran away and started counting time.

At 8 minutes since the leak started the cooling system began losing efficiency, water temperature climbed to 110°C.
At 16 minutes water temperature was 125°C, radiator was fully opened.
At 19 minutes engine overheat message came up.
At 26 minutes the engine seized.

So it is vulnerable, in this case it took a good while for the engine to die because it was a small hit. I don't know how much time exactly it would take for the entire P-51 coolant supply to drain enough to cause an engine stoppage from a couple 7.62mm hits, that I can't answer.
 

 

I don't believe it should take very long at all. It's not just about how much coolant you have in the system, it's also about how much pressure the system is under. If you have lost pressurization due to perforation, you should start to see overheating very quickly irrespective of how much coolant is left in there. 

[Bilbo_Baggins]

7 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

P-51 water radiator is vulnerable, depending on the amount of hits and which weapon or fragment hit it will have different leak rate determining how much time it will be able to sustain engine cooling.

For example I took a P-51 and I got shot by an I-16 with only ShKAS, my radiator was hit so I ran away and started counting time.

At 8 minutes since the leak started the cooling system began losing efficiency, water temperature climbed to 110°C.
At 16 minutes water temperature was 125°C, radiator was fully opened.
At 19 minutes engine overheat message came up.
At 26 minutes the engine seized.

So it is vulnerable, in this case it took a good while for the engine to die because it was a small hit. I don't know how much time exactly it would take for the entire P-51 coolant supply to drain enough to cause an engine stoppage from a couple 7.62mm hits, that I can't answer.
 

 

Thanks for chiming in. My video was 12 minutes hard on the power, climbing and stalling too. After 12 minutes of thrashing it around streaming coolant without overheat I stopped. This never happened before the update. Don't you think this is too long for a water cooler that's lost pressurization? 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Bilbo_Baggins

[Bilbo_Baggins]

20 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

P-51 water radiator is vulnerable, depending on the amount of hits and which weapon or fragment hit it will have different leak rate determining how much time it will be able to sustain engine cooling.

For example I took a P-51 and I got shot by an I-16 with only ShKAS, my radiator was hit so I ran away and started counting time.

At 8 minutes since the leak started the cooling system began losing efficiency, water temperature climbed to 110°C.
At 16 minutes water temperature was 125°C, radiator was fully opened.
At 19 minutes engine overheat message came up.
At 26 minutes the engine seized.

So it is vulnerable, in this case it took a good while for the engine to die because it was a small hit. I don't know how much time exactly it would take for the entire P-51 coolant supply to drain enough to cause an engine stoppage from a couple 7.62mm hits, that I can't answer.
 

 

Hey PHX, after seeing your account of the water cooler damage I decided to test again. Lasted 21 minutes at combat power on the blown water cooler - I think this effectively makes the water coolers invulnerable, and that's a significant problem.

 

Video of 21 minutes combat power on the blown water cooler: https://streamable.com/wvzdli

 

Only reason I didn't go longer is that the machine ran out of fuel.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Bilbo_Baggins

[Bilbo_Baggins]

13 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

If it's a real bug report it in the topic about the update, otherwise we probably won't see it.

 

Jason

 

I apologize for the original title of this thread, Jason - I've just made a little discovery and have edited the title to suit. It is not just the P51 as I first observed. 

 

It appears all water cooler systems are invulnerable with this update now. I just tested the Bf109 and had the AI planes bust my water cooler, I was able to fly on infinitely as with the P51. That said, this is a serious problem for the water-cooled machines in the simulator.  

 

You can still overheat and bust the motor with manually controlled water coolers, but they are invulnerable to enemy fire after the update. 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Bilbo_Baggins

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

11 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

Thanks for chiming in. My video was 12 minutes hard on the power, climbing and stalling too. After 12 minutes of thrashing it around streaming coolant without overheat I stopped. This never happened before the update. Don't you think this is too long for a water cooler that's lost pressurization? 

It may be, I guess that's for @AnPetrovich to comment on as I don't know the inner workings of the system in game. I just test it.

Edited April 9, 2020 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[-DED-Rapidus]

The tests will be carried out, and your videos and tracks will be a good help for us.

[Bilbo_Baggins]

1 hour ago, -DED-Rapidus said:

The tests will be carried out, and your videos and tracks will be a good help for us.

 

You're a star, mate. 

 

Here's another - https://streamable.com/9s4aup  - BF109 16 minutes on blown water cooler no problem. 

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

I made a video this time me in a P-51 getting hit by AI MC 202, and timing it taking into account time compression
 

After being hit: at 13 min the automatic radiator started opening to counter the rise of temperature, at 18 min the radiator was fully opened, 23 min the water hit 150ºC and engine overheat message appeared, at 25 minutes the engine died. Looks like once after overwhelmed the engine dies pretty quickly as expected, maybe with the loss of pressurization this should happen sooner with small amounts of hits.

I tried to have the AI heavily damage the radiator (a very long burst from I-16 or MC 202) to recreate the situation I posted with the P-38 and Bf 109 in the update thread but AI caused tail control loss or fuel tank fire given their aim. Maybe tomorrow I will be able to do it with a player in a server.

[-DED-Rapidus]

@Bilbo_Baggins, I've done shooting tests on the P-51 and its radiators, everything breaks through, leaks out and then breaks down, but given the typical 3/4 projection of shots from the upper plane, as in the screenshot

the water radiator is really hard to break through the fuel tank. With a small leak, the engine can fly for a very long time, which is logical in principle, until the DM systems are implemented (the dependence of the pressure in the systems on the volume, temperature and performance/serviceability of the pumps), so, Yes, while you see a leak, but how strong it is and how quickly the coolant is lost, we can not know. Andrey Petrovich previously wrote that the current version of the DM is still far from ideal. thank you for paying attention to water radiators, I tested the system again)

 

[Bilbo_Baggins]

1 hour ago, -DED-Rapidus said:

@Bilbo_Baggins, I've done shooting tests on the P-51 and its radiators, everything breaks through, leaks out and then breaks down, but given the typical 3/4 projection of shots from the upper plane, as in the screenshot

the water radiator is really hard to break through the fuel tank. With a small leak, the engine can fly for a very long time, which is logical in principle, until the DM systems are implemented (the dependence of the pressure in the systems on the volume, temperature and performance/serviceability of the pumps), so, Yes, while you see a leak, but how strong it is and how quickly the coolant is lost, we can not know. Andrey Petrovich previously wrote that the current version of the DM is still far from ideal. thank you for paying attention to water radiators, I tested the system again)

 

 

Thanks for this post -DED-Rapidus!

 

What about the BF109 though? It also goes on continuously with a blown water cooler: https://streamable.com/9s4aup 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Bilbo_Baggins

[E69_geramos109]

3 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

Thanks for this post -DED-Rapidus!

 

What about the BF109 though? It also goes on continuously with a blown water cooler: https://streamable.com/9s4aup 

109 shoud have shut oof valves on the radiators so if one is damaged you can close one circuit so you can work with one to save the plane. That is not modelled on the game. Some time ago I provided all data and info about the system to devs. If you @-DED-Rapidus want the ingo to model that on the future fuel and system update I can provide it to you

[SCG_motoadve]

Its very easy to damage the water cooling system, usually 1 hit and start streaming white smoke.

If it is a small hole it should last some time, it its leaking a lot from both radiators (109) or big holes then should last not so much.

How much time? hard to tell.

 

I can compare it to a car, friend of mine drove his dad's car with a broken radiator hose , it started to overheat , he kept going, white smoke from under the hood, he kept going, started to run rough , he kept going, started to loose power , he continued, until the engine stopped (yes very dumb, we were 16 years old , I was the copilot) from when the temp started to rise to the engine seizing it took about 15 minutes.

[=RS=Stix_09]

FYI: based on @-=PHX=-SuperEtendard video above , as water is boiling off above 100 deg C there must be pressure still in the system. (quite possible depending on what is damaged, in almost all  likely cases rads will get hit as all the other vital  parts of the water system  are enclosed in main body of air frame in front of pilot).On p-51d the radiator is less exposed than say a 109's rad which has  water lines to rads in wings also exposed, but a smaller target, so also in 109 radiator is most common thing hit, its a common fail point on the 109)

 

Its harder to test your own plane taking hits without a buddy shooting at you.

I did some quick tests with bf109e7/f4 and p51d, shooting AI pilots, and the 109 was able to take a hell of a lot of 7.92mm MG fire in rads and I never was able to get AI planes engines to quit, only engine performance dropped off to the point the planes eventually belly landed.

 AI idle the engines once water empties and the engines keep running until they crash. Water loss is def much reduced in comparison to pre patch (where minor leaks are concerned, , and maybe that's more real or just need tweaking? Its not easy to judge extent of damage from visuals alone. (without some sort of debug tool showing actual damage to plane (using mission editor  your options are limited in getting accurate damage info).

 

Its just possible the current patch just does a better job of modeling minor leaks(more fine grained), so they take a lot longer, where before any rad hit, downed a plane much quicker. Certainly noticed a lot of variation in time to boil all water dry, seemed to be in proportion to how much i appeared  to damage rads. Its always been the case prepatch that once water pressure gets to a certain low point, you can no longer control temp and u get thermal runaway, and this is still the case in my testing.

AS far as I know there is no header tank in these systems(looking at diagrams) , so I would expect even small loses of water to cause runaway fairly quickly in a pressurised system (the p51d had 16.5 gallons of water in its coolant system, what % causes runaway , not sure??).

 

You can test this on a bf109 by damaging a single rad, once the other starts venting, thermal runaway is in progress, and the AI , throttles back the engine to idle.

LINK: Bf109 water cooling system

Below figure is the P51D cooling system:

 

 

Spoiler

(from DCS p51d manual)

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by =RS=Stix_09
updated after more tests.

[-DED-Rapidus]

17 hours ago, E69_geramos109 said:

If you @-DED-Rapidus want the ingo to model that on the future fuel and system update I can provide it to you

Thank you for your offer of help, plans for further development of the damage model can be shared by @AnPetrovich in one of the developers ' diaries.

21 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

 

Thanks for this post -DED-Rapidus!

 

What about the BF109 though? It also goes on continuously with a blown water cooler: https://streamable.com/9s4aup 

Your link doesn't open.

[rowdyb00t]

@-DED-Rapidus

 

  I had no trouble with opening the link using google browser

[Bilbo_Baggins]

18 hours ago, -DED-Rapidus said:

 

Your link doesn't open.

 

DED, here's another link if you'd like to try again. I could run the BF109 on high power continuously with the blown water cooler and no overheat.

 

 

Regards

Edited April 12, 2020 by Bilbo_Baggins

[-DED-Rapidus]

@Bilbo_Baggins, if you have a small leak option to fly quietly for at least 7-9 minutes if you keep low rpm (1300-1500).