Game version 4.005 discussion: New airframe damage model

[Bilbo_Baggins]

Sometimes the planes just explode. Saw a Pe2 explode in midair the other day when hit by a MK108.

 

LaGG-3 explodes here: https://streamable.com/pzxefb

[Aero*Bohemio]

I also made this video for other topic, but:

The way the damage is calculated online it's broken and needs a fix:

Online ShVAK is useless from dead 6 and VYa23mm is very underpowered.
 

 

[Mad-Moses]

2 hours ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

The drag penalty when you get hit in the wing is way too much. I mean especially with the P51D and the Tempest 1 20mm hit in the wing doesnt cut the wing(it didn't before either) but now you can't even turn. Sure physics and stuff and your lift goes a bit, but that is waaay too much and i don't like it.

I just experienced it in the Tempest. WOW! I had a long flight home as well, almost threw-up for all the bobbing up and down. You are surely done fighting once that happens to your wing.  Somehow someway I managed to land it, not sure how.

 

Once you slow down the bobbing effect slows in speed a bit and it's a little easier to keep up on it.

 

Crazy... I'm cool with it if that is a real aerodynamic effect, the visual on it isn't much, if it showed a huge hunk of sheet aluminum sticking up out of the wing it would be better so you would know what is going on.

 

Here is a clip of it happening to me about an hour ago online:

 

Mad-Moses

Edited April 14, 2020 by Mad-Moses

[Legioneod]

24 minutes ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

I also made this video for other topic, but:

The way the damage is calculated online it's broken and needs a fix:

Online ShVAK is useless from dead 6 and VYa23mm is very underpowered.
 

 

It's a netcode issue not a damage model issue. 

 

[IckyATLAS]

I just discovered that the media translator does not display anymore images.

I have in my missions images displayed on the screen at certain moments. These do not display anymore. These are JPG images on a 850x500 pixel format, and in version 4.004 were displayed with no problem. With the new version no more images at all. 

However the media translator does work for sound and will play sound tracks. 

Thanks to the devs to check this issue.

[357th_KW]

2 minutes ago, Legioneod said:

It's a netcode issue not a damage model issue. 

 

 

I know everyone is jumping on this bandwagon in that thread, but I'm seeing a similar effect testing with .50s in single player.  I put together a couple test missions and a track of a typical outcome I was seeing and submitted it as a bug report.  I think it's a 109 specific issue, rather than a gun issue, related to the stab problems that they covered in the patch notes.  Hopefully it'll get resolved when they resolve the stab issue.

[Legioneod]

3 minutes ago, KW_1979 said:

 

I know everyone is jumping on this bandwagon in that thread, but I'm seeing a similar effect testing with .50s in single player.  I put together a couple test missions and a track of a typical outcome I was seeing and submitted it as a bug report.  I think it's a 109 specific issue, rather than a gun issue, related to the stab problems that they covered in the patch notes.  Hopefully it'll get resolved when they resolve the stab issue.

I agree the 109 feels a little more durable than it should but I think it's just a 109 issue like you said and not a .50 issue.

I have no trouble taking out other aircraft with the .50s, just the 109s.

 

Once API is modeled I think .50s will be much more effective, at the moment we are only using AP.

 

Only thing I would change with this patch is the way cooling loss/damage is modeled. Damage to the coolant system should overheat the engine sooner even if there is minor leaks. The aircraft may be able to fly for a little with minor coolant damage but once the coolant starts boiling off the engine should quickly overheat.

 

We shouldn't see situations where an aircraft can fly 20min with a damaged coolant line/radiator. The coolant would have already started boiling off by then.

 

Coolant loss rate shouldn't be the only factor in determining overheat, even with a single hole in the system the coolant will start to overheat and boil away within minutes due to loss of pressure. The coolant wouldn't all boil away at once of course but once it start to boil the engine will start overheating and it's game over.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Legioneod

[357th_KW]

Just now, Legioneod said:

I agree the 109 feels a little more durable than it should but I think it's just a 109 issue like you said and not a .50 issue.

I have no trouble taking out other aircraft with the .50s, just the 109s.

 

Once API is modeled I think .50s will be much more effective, at the moment we are only using AP.

 

Yeah, if you go look at my track in the bug report, you can see that just 4 .50s straight up the tail at 100m is instant catastrophic death for every other fighter I've tested on.  And if its the tail, it explains why a lot of people aren't noticing it, as deflection and front quarter shots wouldn't be affected.

[Aero*Bohemio]

1 hour ago, Legioneod said:

It's a netcode issue not a damage model issue. 

 

I understand, but while the MG151/20mm keeps being destructive, ShVAK and more powerful VYA23mm are way off. 

Is it possible Netcode affects only some types of weapon?

 

PS. yes, maybe the 109 tail is an issue, but still it blows up when hit by 151/20

[FTC_DerSheriff]

36 minutes ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:

I understand, but while the MG151/20mm keeps being destructive, ShVAK and more powerful VYA23mm are way off. 

Is it possible Netcode affects only some types of weapon?

 

PS. yes, maybe the 109 tail is an issue, but still it blows up when hit by 151/20

Dunno what the problem is.. I flew 190s and the La-5s and the svaks were really good too. Shvaks are no mineshells, but you can certainly cripple a 109 without problems.
two days a go I got one 20mm hit on my right 109 wingtip which disabled the aileron on that side. Was still moving, but I was totally out of the fight and couldnt really defend myself.

Try to maneuver a plane which is damaged and record the level speed.
A aircraft just doesnt fall out of the sky because critical amount of hits are reached. 

[LLv34_Flanker]

S!

 

Can concur with Der Sheriff. Flew Fw190A-8 and when hitting a La-5FN with the 2 x 20mm and 2 x 30mm + MG´s the result was as desired, a plane that was on fire and pilot had to bail. A bit later was on the receiving end of a La-5FN and the FW190 got disabled very fast so had to bail. Only thing is that when flying 110G and got only a hit or two from a machine gun the plane began to wobble like in heavy turbulence. I doubt 2 holes would make a plane to buck like a rodeo horse ? In general the DM feels a lot better and with updates will just get better.

[Grajo]

As these DM changes have been so "significant", would be great if Devs provide some diagrams showing each aircraft Hit boxes and detailing which part of the aircraft they represent.

 

We could see that way how far this improvement has gone in this matter, at least about the localized damage.

[Tipsi]

5 hours ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

I also made this video for other topic, but:

The way the damage is calculated online it's broken and needs a fix:

Online ShVAK is useless from dead 6 and VYa23mm is very underpowered.

 

The 109 in the video is flying in a straight line.

 

What if it was a human piolt sustaining same damage, would it be able to fly competitively against other planes in a dogfight with the damage?

 

I would think not?

[Aero*Bohemio]

It was a human pilot. You should check video info.

[Hawk-2a]

13 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

 

It was a human pilot.

 

On auto-level. Then you also aim with the german 20s on the wing, with the russian guns you aim at the fuselage. And it looks like some of the hits are from such a shallow angle that it could be ricochets.

[Voodoo_Slayer]

Why are the .50 Caliber machine guns so ineffective?  Why are the Allied bombs ineffective now? (I don’t bomb anymore it’s not worth it)

why hasn’t the spotting issues been addressed? Why are the spotting issues being ignored. 
Why is the 110 now the best fighter aircraft in the game?  
 

 

[Aero*Bohemio]

2 minutes ago, H_Stiglitz said:

On auto-level. Then you also aim with the german 20s on the wing, with the russian guns you aim at the fuselage. And it looks like some of the hits are from such a shallow angle that it could be ricochets.

You need to check video before posting wrong observations. Pilot was also asked to maneuvre his plane after i.e 14 hits by VYa23mm. There are two separate parts, we tested to fuselage and rads, another to wing. 

 

Pilot always reported to have more demolishing  effects to his plane with impacts by 151/20

[SAS_Storebror]

For what it's worth, here's a comparison of stuff from the "luascripts" folder of GTP archives, changes between 4.004 and 4.005b.

https://storebror.it.cx/sas/il2_gb/4004_vs_4005b/4004_vs_4005b_luascripts.html

 

It's a bit hard to compare the values applied to different types of guns as the naming conventions for the shells/bullets have changed.

For instance, in order to see what changed for the MG151/20, you would navigate to worldobjects/ballistics/projectiles

There you find the file "shell_ger_20x82_he.txt".

It doesn't show much of a difference itself, but in order to get the full picture, you would have to compare the different files applying to the "hit object" effect, which in 4.004 was

WorldObjects/Explosions/HEprojectiles/tnt20g_frag70g_HE_expl_object.txt

whereas in 4.005b it is

WorldObjects/Explosions/HEprojectiles/HE_020mm_92g_20g_object.txt

which in comparison would look like this:

https://storebror.it.cx/sas/il2_gb/4004_vs_4005b/mg151_20_shells.html

 

Mike

[IckyATLAS]

5 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

I just discovered that the media translator does not display anymore images.

I have in my missions images displayed on the screen at certain moments. These do not display anymore. These are JPG images on a 850x500 pixel format, and in version 4.004 were displayed with no problem. With the new version no more images at all. 

However the media translator does work for sound and will play sound tracks. 

Thanks to the devs to check this issue.

My humble excuses to devs. I solved the problem. It is that damn HUD that is not active at mission start. If you don't hit the H key you can't see images.

I would appreciate in the future if at Mission start the HUD (just the HUD and nothing else) could be active by default. And then we can hide it if we want as usual with the H key.

Sorry again for my internal brain problem. ? 

 

 

[RedKestrel]

6 minutes ago, IckyATLAS said:

My humble excuses to devs. I solved the problem. It is that damn HUD that is not active at mission start. If you don't hit the H key you can't see images.

I would appreciate in the future if at Mission start the HUD (just the HUD and nothing else) could be active by default. And then we can hide it if we want as usual with the H key.

Sorry again for my internal brain problem. ? 

 

 

There is an option in the interface settings to have the HUD on by default.

[blitze]

Please note that the Devs will in time, have to rework the models of the 109's and the corresponding skins to bring their damage model in line with what is expected.  At the moment they had the option of leaving the 109's as they were with glass rear ends or nullifying the damage to that part of the aircrafts' structure.  The 109's still can have elevator and rudder skin damage and control loss as well.

 

I am sure when they get the time to revisit the models - the Devs will update them for us.  It still didn't stop my Kuban Career Spitfire pilot from downing 3 109's in a furball (2 vs 8 ) and having my pilot killed whilst trying to evade back to home airbase.

 

He had a good send off with a shot of vodka and a tear or two.?

 

Now the Shivaks and their 12.7mm friends are no issue in my flying taking down 109's and as for the A20, I have only gone up against them in 190A5's and unfortunately for the A20's - they get shredded with the 190.

[thermoregulator]

2 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

Can concur with Der Sheriff. Flew Fw190A-8 and when hitting a La-5FN with the 2 x 20mm and 2 x 30mm + MG´s the result was as desired, a plane that was on fire and pilot had to bail. A bit later was on the receiving end of a La-5FN and the FW190 got disabled very fast so had to bail. Only thing is that when flying 110G and got only a hit or two from a machine gun the plane began to wobble like in heavy turbulence. I doubt 2 holes would make a plane to buck like a rodeo horse ? In general the DM feels a lot better and with updates will just get better.

The Bf 110 (both versions) wobbling  happened to me, too. I think it happens when one of the rudders is just slightly damaged. It feels strange. Maybe this also applies to Peshkas, at least AI. One or two MG hits to rudder, and the AI absolutely can't keep in formation. Maybe aircraft with double rudder need some fine-tuning.

 

New DM is great, otherwise.

[Roland_HUNter]

1 hour ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

You need to check video before posting wrong observations. Pilot was also asked to maneuvre his plane after i.e 14 hits by VYa23mm. There are two separate parts, we tested to fuselage and rads, another to wing. 

 

Pilot always reported to have more demolishing  effects to his plane with impacts by 151/20

I like it how did you just ignored my online video, when I shot down 109s with 3-5 23mm Hit. Are you really want to be so hopeless?

46 minutes ago, blitze said:

Please note that the Devs will in time, have to rework the models of the 109's and the corresponding skins to bring their damage model in line with what is expected.  At the moment they had the option of leaving the 109's as they were with glass rear ends or nullifying the damage to that part of the aircrafts' structure.  The 109's still can have elevator and rudder skin damage and control loss as well.

 

I am sure when they get the time to revisit the models - the Devs will update them for us.  It still didn't stop my Kuban Career Spitfire pilot from downing 3 109's in a furball (2 vs 8 ) and having my pilot killed whilst trying to evade back to home airbase.

 

He had a good send off with a shot of vodka and a tear or two.?

 

Now the Shivaks and their 12.7mm friends are no issue in my flying taking down 109's and as for the A20, I have only gone up against them in 190A5's and unfortunately for the A20's - they get shredded with the 190.

In another topic -=PHX=-SuperEtendard made a very good picture about the 109s tail, what is NO destroyable:

  

50 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

About the damage to the 109 tail, just to clarify, the damage has been disabled for one part of the tail, the vertical stabilizer and the joining point of the horizontal stabs (red), the rest of the tail can still be damaged and ripped off (blue):



 

 

[CountZero]

2 hours ago, Valkyrie77 said:

Why are the .50 Caliber machine guns so ineffective?  Why are the Allied bombs ineffective now? (I don’t bomb anymore it’s not worth it)

why hasn’t the spotting issues been addressed? Why are the spotting issues being ignored. 
Why is the 110 now the best fighter aircraft in the game?  
 

 

All is ok and how it should be, you just dont know how to aim all of suden after years of playing ?

[BlitzPig_EL]

I have a multiplayer mission I generated with SYN_Vander's Easy Mission Tool, on the Kuban that has all planes available, and many re-generating flights of enemy AI, so it lends itself to testing the various Allied aircraft against incoming flights of Ju88s, 109G4s, and FW 190A3s.  I don't seem to be having any issues with bagging any of the German types with a Mustang, P47, or P38, though my preferred mount is the P51.

 

I will take the extra ammo loadout and 150octane fuel on the Pony, and typically can get 4 190s, or 3 G4s before needing to RTB for ammo.  Ju88s can go either way, I have brought them down with a single short burst which is no doubt a pilot kill, or they can be quite difficult requiring much more attention.  The fighters are not easy kills, as the AI are very adept at using maneuvering in the vertical, and riding the blackout in turns, requiring much work on my part, but when I get a good solution the .50s seem quite effective, either getting outright pilot kills, or causing enough damage that the enemy will break off and eventually go down, or, about half the time erupt in flames and go down immediately.  Streaming coolant and fuel from leaks does not seem to take them out of the fight initially, but it does often make their maneuvering less violent.  Once I see black smoke I break off, as that is a sure sign of game over.

 

To be sure, the days of the ultra short snap shot burst bringing down planes is pretty much over, but properly aimed, controlled fire is very effective with the .50 Brownings.  Just don't expect Hollywood FX visuals. 

 

Now if I could only get the hang of the Shvaks on the La5FN.  I am WAY better with the US wing mounted guns.  I think that having adjustable vertical dispersion would make all the difference here.

Edited April 14, 2020 by BlitzPig_EL

[III/JG52_Otto_-I-]

9 hours ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

I also made this video for other topic, but:

The way the damage is calculated online it's broken and needs a fix:

Online ShVAK is useless from dead 6 and VYa23mm is very underpowered.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Well, .. same here, ... What do you think about the Pony Damage Model?
it seem almost bulletproof.
 

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by III/JG52_Otto_-I-

[Aero*Bohemio]

Irrelevant to my test and what we discuss there; if your think P51 DM is broken go and present a complaint about it.

[MeoW.Scharfi]

45 minutes ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

Well, .. same here, ... What do you think about the Pony Damage Model?
it seem almost bulletproof.

 

Most wings became study af right now not only the P51 one. But the pony wouldn't be able to maneuver after 1x 30mm hit in the wing, this is how it is right now, so yeah you will get your kill but not by cutting a wing. I stood up for more wing offs for all planes but guess you have to live with that now. The people who stood up for more study wings have all the "upvotes" in the thread. So yeah..

 

And you should fly the P51, you will see how fast you die after 1 taps,  the first hit in the wing of your p51 makes you fly straight only because you are not able to do many maneuvers, you are a standing target and you will die.

 

The problem you often get in physical threads, people write reasonable textes which make sense and sound good and plausible IN THEORY. They get upvotes for that because yes it does sound right. But what these people don't do, is to define this matter not only copy pasting and a bit rewriting from wikipedia.

You really need to define how much a wing can take and how big the holes should be to have significant drag.

 

They come up with all that basic stuff like "iF yOu HaVe a HoLe iN yOuR wInG tHeN YoUr pLaNe hAs dRaG", yeah what a great explaination about the current matter we have in here right now. turly professional!

Edited April 14, 2020 by MeoW.Scharfi

[mattebubben]

Ive not had any issues with the Shvak so far.

Generally i find a short burst to be enough for 109s or 190s.

And ive managed to cut a good number of 109 wings with the LA-5FN (Using the Pure HE Belts).

 

So i dont feel like the 20mm guns are too Weak.

(And the 23mm with full HE belts is still very effective)

 

Also to note with your test.

Since the belts are mixed

and every shot does not hit it so you might not get a perfect comparison.

 

Lets say for example that with the Shvak you miss most of your HE rounds with the AP rounds being the ones that impact.

Where as with the 151/20 you connect with the HE rounds instead of the AP rounds.

Then the Damage caused will be different.

 

So there could be a degree of luck / bad luck involved.

Since with a 50/50 Mix you might easily get a majority of one type hitting while the other misses if firing singles.

 

Also one thing to consider is that with this new DMG the hidden damage can often be more important then the Visible one.

You might hit and not see anything fall off but inside you might have damaged control cables or weakened the structure etc.

 

So the rounds might have done their job but it might take some time to see the results.

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by mattebubben

[stupor-mundi]

About:
"69. Several commands of the tank commander (for example, "Attack ground targets on sight") will work even if the mission script doesn’t include any commands for this tank;"
, under tank improvements:

 

I'm pretty shocked that this huge change ('improvement') to the gameplay is listed as one of so many small improvements. This is a feature which utterly changes the character of TC, somewhat like the difference between a first person shooter and a large scale strategy game.

 

To put this in a flight context, it's somewhat like flying with icons (gps). It's for good reason 'normal' servers exist like 'EU official...' (DED) , and 'full realism', or whatever they are called. Those who like flying on a full realism server wouldn't be thrilled if there were players on the same server who can and are using gps.

 

And that is exactly what this new 'feature' has just done. It has completely killed gameplay. Those few players who think tanking with icons is worthwhile, were already hanging out on 'EU official ...', and won't notice a big change. But the larger group of tankers who don't think so, and who mostly used to hang out on EFront, are screwed now. EFront decided to change their missions, to limit them to only the 'old' tanks, in order to avoid the new 'feature'.

 

Please fix this urgently.

 

[blitze]

2 hours ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

They come up with all that basic stuff like "iF yOu HaVe a HoLe iN yOuR wInG tHeN YoUr pLaNe hAs dRaG", yeah what a great explaination about the current matter we have in here right now. turly professional!

 

Maybe a hole in a Laminar Flow design wing like the P51 is more of an issue for aerodynamics compared to regular wings?

 

Just a brain fart of mine but the design which was a benefit to the Pony in both range and speed might have a weakness when the surface / system is compromised.?

[Roland_HUNter]

Yeah, something is wrong with the 109 tail:
 

You can test it against E-7 after 2   37mm of HE hit the plane gona lose the rudder holder and the horizontal stabilizer+elevator. Its historical for E-7 but not historical for F,G,K series.

The test  made on Berloga.

Edited April 14, 2020 by -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter

[6./ZG26_Custard]

8 minutes ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Yeah, something is wrong with the 109 tail:

41. Bf-109 (all series except E7): the loss of the vertical stabilizer and the central part of the horizontal stabilizer is temporarily blocked due to the interdependence of this damage in the 3D model, which makes this point extremely vulnerable to combat damage and causes undesirable results. We will try to move the breaking point above the stabilizer in the future and fix this limitation. Damage to the rudder, elevators and horizontal stabs are still possible and the rudder and elevators can still be detached. And the left and right portions of the horizontal stab can also be lost.

[Roland_HUNter]

I mentioned this at the end of the video ?

[6./ZG26_Custard]

6 minutes ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

I mentioned this at the end of the video ?

TLDW

 

[357th_KW]

19 minutes ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

Yeah, something is wrong with the 109 tail:
 

 

 

 

This is the exact issue I've been mentioning and submitted in a bug report.  Nice work putting the video together.  It's definitely an issue with .50 AP as well.  It just occurred to me that the next step would be to try it on a 109E7 as it supposedly isn't affected by the stab damage model bug they are currently working on.

[Cavalier]

5 hours ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

 

Most wings became study af right now not only the P51 one. But the pony wouldn't be able to maneuver after 1x 30mm hit in the wing, this is how it is right now, so yeah you will get your kill but not by cutting a wing. I stood up for more wing offs for all planes but guess you have to live with that now. The people who stood up for more study wings have all the "upvotes" in the thread. So yeah..

 

And you should fly the P51, you will see how fast you die after 1 taps,  the first hit in the wing of your p51 makes you fly straight only because you are not able to do many maneuvers, you are a standing target and you will die.

 

The problem you often get in physical threads, people write reasonable textes which make sense and sound good and plausible IN THEORY. They get upvotes for that because yes it does sound right. But what these people don't do, is to define this matter not only copy pasting and a bit rewriting from wikipedia.

You really need to define how much a wing can take and how big the holes should be to have significant drag.

 

They come up with all that basic stuff like "iF yOu HaVe a HoLe iN yOuR wInG tHeN YoUr pLaNe hAs dRaG", yeah what a great explaination about the current matter we have in here right now. turly professional!

The way I see it is that the damage is being modeled but the visuals for that damage is not. Jason said in at least one of the dev diaries that visual effects of damage will be modeled later. So while we are currently seeing a 30mm hit that looks like a bunch of tiny holes in the wing, It may be modeling a hit that is equivalent to having a gaping jagged hole through the top and leading edge of the wing. We just can't see it because it's hiding beneath the generic damage visual.

 

I'm sure that when the visuals are brought up to par in the future, flying with damage will make a lot more sense when you can look over and see the precise extent of your damage.

[Roland_HUNter]

1 minute ago, KW_1979 said:

This is the exact issue I've been mentioning and submitted in a bug report.  Nice work putting the video together.  It's definitely an issue with .50 AP as well.  It just occurred to me that the next step would be to try it on a 109E7 as it supposedly isn't affected by the stab damage model bug they are currently working on.

"You can test it against E-7 after 2   37mm of HE hit the plane gona lose the rudder holder and the horizontal stabilizer+elevator. Its historical for E-7 but not historical for F,G,K series."
I added it under the video now so you couldn't read it before.

[Voodoo_Slayer]

Why does it take hundreds of rounds to bring an enemy aircraft down? 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

I’ve dumped half an ammo load on some but I’ve also gotten kills on a half second burst. It’s very dependent on where the damage is being inflicted. My kill rate overall is only slightly lower than before. My K/D is largely unchanged.