AI two-seaters are the solution to the altitude problem (yes, they count towards your streak)

[BMA_Hellbender]

I'll start by saying that I'm happy to see so much activity on the J5 server, even on weeknights at European evening times, thanks to the release of the map (which is serviceable enough), @J5_Matthias's excellent mission building, and the stats which seems to have galvanised the community. I was concerned about the streak mechanic not being brought over from RoF, as it gives you something visible in-game to build towards between missions. Now I think it may have been a blessing in disguise. The stats page indeed keeps track of all your kills this tour (and this vlife) and there's no competition with an in-game stat.

 

Also, and the importance of this can't be understated: AI kills count towards your total kills and streak. At least that's what it looks like on the stats page. This is a massive departure from RoF, where shooting down an AI was about as consequential as emptying your guns at thin air. Obviously there is room for stat abuse, but with some creative mission building, it could be turned into an incentive to have dogfights happen at a desired altitude.

 

I love flying two-seaters, but I have to admit that I can't really be bothered to do any missions with them or fly them at the altitude they're supposed to be flown (>10,000ft for the Bristols, <100ft for the Halberstadts). I know that there's people who genuinely enjoy doing photo recon or bombing (which can also be done with Entente scouts) and they should be able to continue doing that. Me, for the most part, I don't see the point of helping "my side" in a public game and risk going too deeply into enemy territory or fly low level to attack a trench and get shot down by AAA. Beyond the score that I might build up doing these missions (I'm not sure how that works with photo recon), there's only glory to be had with air kills, and "your side" winning or losing the mission doesn't affect your kill tally anyway. Even so, you may very well have to change sides at some point to balance the teams.

 

However, two-seater missions absolutely need to be carried out regularly, otherwise it's all just scouts looking for trouble. So why not have AI do them?

 

This is what I suggest:

 

• Every 15 minutes, a 4-ship flight of two-seaters appears alternatingly on one side of the map. This means that each side would have a two-seater flight appear every 30 minutes, meaning a total of four flights during a 90-minute mission, with the first and last 15 minutes no new flights appearing.
  
  0:00 [MISSION START]
  0:15 Entente flight A
  0:30 Central flight X
  0:45 Entente flight B 
  1:00 Central flight Y
  1:15
  1:30 [MISSION END]
   
• Each two-seater flight takes roughly 30 minutes to complete its mission. This includes take-off (airstart?) and landing. The Entente flight would consist of Bristols (F.II) completing a high altitude recon mission, not too far behind enemy lines at 10,000ft. The Central flight would consist of Halberstadts (180hp) performing a low level trench attack. The outcome of the mission counts towards one side winning, though this is not really of consequence to most players.
   
• The incentive here is to either hunt or escort said two-seater flights, in the knowledge that downing AI planes counts towards your air victories. In other words: if one side leaves its AI two-seaters unescorted, they are potentially easy kills. But if you go after these easy kills, you may very well run into a human escort. The high altitude Bristols obviously put the D.VIIF at an advantage, while the low level Halberstadts favour the Camel (and SPAD, SE5a, Dolphin...). Human two-seaters can also join the AI formation and help to complete the objective or simply provide additional escort.
   
• In case such AI flights are already taking place and I simply had no idea they were happening, they do have to be announced to the map. The imminent departure of these flights is announced on their own side (green flares at the airfield, in-game message). The flight crossing into NML (at their mission altitude) is announced to the entire map (red/yellow flares at the trenches, in-game message).

Edited October 18, 2019 by J5_Hellbender

[Panzerlang]

My missions since the early days of the first IL2 followed this ethos. It's a no-brainer.

[slug_yuugen]

I think there are AI two-seater flights. I shot one down beetling over no mans land at about 2k feet the other day. I like the sound of this a lot though.

 

I've personally been trying to get recon targets and bomb in the Bristol but right now it feels much safer to cross the front low and then gain altitude. Although I've not managed to actually recon anything as feedback on hitting the elusive bubble is scant.

 

I think part of the issue is that both sides don't see their own targets to defend so tend to try to intercept at the front rather than hang out over a target and there is a lack of defense in depth. This is partially a learning thing as I've started working out where stuff is and actively flying over it but if you're new to the server the map suggests all the interesting stuff is across no mans land. One thing I like from WW2 servers is that you get spotting notifications so can at least act on concrete information that a target is under threat.

 

I'm also new to this all so probably missing something obvious.

[J2_Trupobaw]

Just because AIs are included in parser does not make them count in any meaningful way; it just means we have to scrutinise the page  streak values.

 

I like the idea of  other people climbing to hunt for high AIs, though  (*they* definetly count for the score). 

[Panzerlang]

41 minutes ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Just because AIs are included in parser does not make them count in any meaningful way; it just means we have to scrutinise the page  streak values.

 

I like the idea of  other people climbing to hunt for high AIs, though  (*they* definetly count for the score). 

You do know that the real aces shot down droves of rookies and 'easy-meat' 2-seaters? That's what the AI stand in for.

[BMA_Hellbender]

1 hour ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Just because AIs are included in parser does not make them count in any meaningful way; it just means we have to scrutinise the page  streak values.

 

I like the idea of  other people climbing to hunt for high AIs, though  (*they* definetly count for the score). 

 

The stat page is obviously only valid for the J5 server, and I'm not sure what the actual kill policy is (opinions stated are my own), but I do indeed like to see the AI kills being counted as legit. Especially since kill messages in general are disabled, which I believe has turned out to be a good decision. Otherwise we get the old RoF situation where you break off the fight the moment you realise that you're fighting an AI. You could make your own server with nothing but AI and get a streak of thousands, but it would only be visible on your own parser. And of course you can join the J5 server during off hours with the purpose to hunt down AI and pad your stats, but I can only see that as a win-win, as you're populating the server.

Edited October 18, 2019 by J5_Hellbender

[Panzerlang]

If every pilot in WW2 had been PC-sim standard there would have been few to zero surviving aces.

[JGr2/J5_Hotlead]

This is a great idea @J5_Hellbender! ? I think it would add some adventure/fun to go hunting for low Halberstadts or high Brisfits. It certainly would add to the immersion! 

[Guest deleted@83466]

4 hours ago, J5_Hellbender said:

 

Also, and the importance of this can't be understated: AI kills count towards your total kills and streak. At least that's what it looks like on the stats page. This is a massive departure from RoF, where shooting down an AI was about as consequential as emptying your guns at thin air. Obviously there is room for stat abuse, but with some creative mission building, it could be turned into an incentive to have dogfights happen at a desired altitude.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, J2_Trupobaw said:

Just because AIs are included in parser does not make them count in any meaningful way; it just means we have to scrutinise the page  streak values.

 

I like the idea of  other people climbing to hunt for high AIs, though  (*they* definetly count for the score). 

 

I don't necessarily disagree that shooting down AI might be useful for furtherence of mission goals, just as it was shooting down AI HPs on the old Wargrounds, but as far as measure of pilot skill it is still as " inconsequential as emptying your guns at thin air", so I'm not sure why you are trying to sell it off as some kind of virtue that can be capitalized on by people interested in streak numbers. Sort of reminds me of those "train slayers" in RoF who used to spam their numerical score by repeatedly killing the train over and over.  I suppose it requires a change of the parser script to not group Airborne AI kills with Airborne PvP kills, but that's a shame because they are for all practical purposes two separate categories. 

[Panzerlang]

12 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

 

I don't necessarily disagree that shooting down AI might be useful for furtherence of mission goals, just as it was shooting down AI HPs on the old Wargrounds, but as far as measure of pilot skill it is still as " inconsequential as emptying your guns at thin air", so I'm not sure why you are trying to sell it off as some kind of virtue that can be capitalized on by people interested in streak numbers. Sort of reminds me of those "train slayers" in RoF who used to spam their numerical score by repeatedly killing the train over and over.  I suppose it requires a change of the parser script to not group Airborne AI kills with Airborne PvP kills, but that's a shame because they are for all practical purposes two separate categories. 

Are you saying the WW1 and WW2 pilots who shot down pilots of significantly lesser skill (rookies etc) were bogus aces? The AI in this sim flies better than most of the rookies could.

Edited October 18, 2019 by J3Hetzer

[SeaW0lf]

31 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

I don't necessarily disagree that shooting down AI might be useful for furtherence of mission goals, just as it was shooting down AI HPs on the old Wargrounds, but as far as measure of pilot skill it is still as " inconsequential as emptying your guns at thin air", so I'm not sure why you are trying to sell it off as some kind of virtue that can be capitalized on by people interested in streak numbers. Sort of reminds me of those "train slayers" in RoF who used to spam their numerical score by repeatedly killing the train over and over.  I suppose it requires a change of the parser script to not group Airborne AI kills with Airborne PvP kills, but that's a shame because they are for all practical purposes two separate categories. 

 

I think that if the mission is well balanced and the AI recon route is meaningful, it can bring people to them, just like they did in ROF. Even novices. The HP raids in Wargrounds were a source of engagements because we knew there were always people there to shoot them down. I did not like the fact that they circled the target for several minutes for target practice, but Syndicate had the Gotha raid (I think they went on a 2km altitude path) that I perhaps consider the best mission I have ever played in WWI. There were so many engagements at high altitude to shoot them down or defend them. In this case I think AI kills should count half the kill of PvP or something. Even a full kill. 

 

The only downside to it is the players who log in at night with the server empty to shot down AI to bump their score. But something could be devised. I'm not sure what can be done with the MB, but perhaps AI should only count as a kill after the server has a certain numbers of players?

 

Just thinking aloud.

[BMA_Hellbender]

44 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

I don't necessarily disagree that shooting down AI might be useful for furtherence of mission goals, just as it was shooting down AI HPs on the old Wargrounds, but as far as measure of pilot skill it is still as " inconsequential as emptying your guns at thin air", so I'm not sure why you are trying to sell it off as some kind of virtue that can be capitalized on by people interested in streak numbers. Sort of reminds me of those "train slayers" in RoF who used to spam their numerical score by repeatedly killing the train over and over.  I suppose it requires a change of the parser script to not group Airborne AI kills with Airborne PvP kills, but that's a shame because they are for all practical purposes two separate categories. 

 

We've had this discussion before, I really do miss the old streak mechanic. Horribly inaccurate as it was, going wonky when the master server went wonky (a.k.a. all the time), it was more or less an indicator of how well you were doing on your present vlife. Yes, you could also go look at stat parsers to get a more accurate picture, but in the end the streak was the one official stat which you could build up and which would follow you around. It was something. Now we have nothing, at least nothing official. So now that it's stat parsers or bust, it also means that server operators are free to choose what they consider to be a victory. For any given server, it would be good to know whether this includes AI or not.

 

If we're going to start filling servers with novice AI scouts flying around at random, those victories will quickly lose their meaning. So my suggestion instead is not to discount the AI kills, but have them be meaningful kills. Kills that actually contribute to the mission, that is, and move the focal point of dogfighting to a desired location/altitude.

 

16 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said:

The only downside to it is the players who log in at night with the server empty to shot down AI to bump their score. But something could be devised. I'm not sure what can be done with the MB, but perhaps AI should only count as a kill after the server has a certain numbers of players?

 

Just thinking aloud.

 

That will happen, and I think that's fine to a certain degree. I would also give the AI gunners expert accuracy, which should make it hard for a single scout to clean house. I'm not sure how effective this would be with Halberstadt, it's an idea that needs a lot of testing, if it happens at all (I'm not a mission builder).

 

We (un)fortunately all live in different timezones, so when at least 1 person is on in the early hours of the morning, it might just attract another who happens to be looking at the serverlist in the afternoon. Still, I wouldn't judge people too harshly if what they want to do is get the AI two-seaters. All the more reason to keep a watchful eye and escort them whenever possible.

[SeaW0lf]

That's true. Some people from Oceania / West Coast many times spend the night having fun alone on the servers.

[Panzerlang]

Hunting AI, no different to the likes of Manfred going out hunting easy meat. That's how the real aces 'padded their stats'.

[JGr2/J46_Sturm]

I agree that the AI two seaters are a great idea. Only thing I am not sure of is what kind of stress it puts on the mission or server. If it is possible I would love to see it happen. There many a time I am on alone and having a something to pursue would be fun. There are already AI fighters that are fun as well. AI two seaters on a mission would add to the immersion for me.

[No.23_Gaylion]

Just put a flight of five in there on ace skill level and you'll soon see why attacking a formation of two seaters by yourself is and was a horrible idea. 

 

?

 

Need to make a script where they go into a lufberry circle when attacked. 

[SeaW0lf]

The problem with ace skill level is the consistent pot-shots coming from nowhere. AIs and two-seaters deserve so much attention (development) at the moment, especially due to their importance during the war.

 

I expect the see Gothas (HPs) rather soon than later. Loved to raid with a Gotha / so vintage. It was a pleasure.

[US103_Baer]

One man's night is another guy's afternoon when the wife is out shopping.

Edited October 19, 2019 by US103_Baer

[Guest deleted@83466]

When I was a member of a squad in RoF, it meant something to be awarded a "medal" after a 20 kill PvP streak, that very first time.  And then again at 40, and at 80 or whatever the number.  It matters not worth a damn what I think in a game I barely even play, and whose future is uncertain, but I do think that it is a motivational mistake to mix AI kills with PvP kills because insofar as role-playing is concerned they aren't equivalent. 

Edited October 19, 2019 by SeaSerpent

[No.23_Triggers]

1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said:

It matters not worth a damn what I think in a game I barely even play, and whose future is uncertain, but I do think that it is a motivational mistake to mix AI kills with PvP kills because insofar as role-playing is concerned they aren't equivalent. 

 

I more or less agree with this, although I'll say that I'm more afraid of AI gunners than human ones as it currently stands. I think in regard to J5 Flugpark's Pour le Merite, including AI planes in a streak doesn't bother me. That medal serves a good function to give players a reason to keep coming back to the server, and including AI in the required 25 victory tally means that players won't get put off when nobody else is on, meaning in turn that they'll go on and potentially seed the server. 

 

In US103, however, and I'm sure in the other squadrons, AI aren't counted towards "medals". And you're right. When I got my hands on the Legion d'Honneur in US103 I was definitely proud to show it off - it might not have felt quite so special if half of the required victories were over AI. 

 

Either way, first time seeing Server medals and I think it's a very neat idea. I think including AI in the streak is also a good idea, and if players want a bit of an added challenge, sign up with a Squadron and start gunning for their 'big' medals. 

 

[Guest deleted@83466]

Well, I guess I'm too old school, but what it means to be good at the game and some of the squadrons that form the backdrop of it all have definitely changed since I was in the World War I fray a few years ago.

Edited October 19, 2019 by SeaSerpent

[No.23_Triggers]

I used to wing up a lot with J2_Adam when I was still with J2, I've heard the stories of the 'Glory Days' and the Aces of old! 

Edited October 19, 2019 by US103_Larner

[BMA_Hellbender]

Some very good feedback so far, thanks one and all.

 

Since we're all dating ourselves here, I have lived through the dark ages of RoF on the CoCos coop server (everything was fair game with the Russians, I have to give them that) and been lucky enough to experience the glory days from the relative safety of Darling's pilot seat while he downed entire Jastas in a single sortie — we're not getting any of that back. Thank Jason, we're not.

 

If you're still flying RoF today, that's entirely your call. I'm not going back. Well, I may have to go back for Bloody April. There's reasons aplenty, not least of which the damage model improvements and g forces on pilots and gunners. Flying Circus will almost certainly never experience the popularity RoF had, especially after F2P became a thing and the chat was flooded with "How do I start my engine?", "Press B." As @J2_Trupobaw mentioned in the other thread, they were lambs to the slaughter, orders of magnitude worse than even rookie AI. Some of them learned, many of them left. What we have now is a community mostly comprised of RoF veterans and a few interested WWII flyers who have no idea what they're getting themselves into. Absolutely no one is buying Flying Circus with no prior interest in RoF or IL-2. If you are, please let yourself be known, we have a medal for that too.

 

So about PvE: it's absolutely needed in a limited fashion, if only to create urgency and a reason to join the server even when it's empty. After all, ground attack is also PvE, at least until Volume 7: Landship Crew (still one volume before we get Zeppelins). I had no idea that the J5 Flugpark had a few AI scouts flying around until I checked the stat pages, but considering the quality of the AI compared to RoF, it's not such a bad thing. If server performance becomes an issue, I would rather see the scouts go in favour of mission-based two-seaters.

 

I agree that this solution is far from perfect. Eventually I'd love to see two-seater squadrons form and the need for AI to disappear completely. Until then, I think it can serve us better than just placeholders who disappear when enough pilots join. That always seemed like the more gamey option.

[Panzerlang]

Did any of you who won medals playing strictly pvp still feel proud when you were pulling UFO Gs against noobs?

Now we have physiology AND a vastly improved AI, that flys combat better than many of the real novices ever did until they were killed, the AI is most certainly legit. Killing it is no more easy than seal-clubbing noobs.

PvP-only servers present about as bogus a sim experience as I can think of. It's not a simulation of WW1 air combat, it's an e-sport. No thanks, I'd rather watch a plank warp.

Edited October 19, 2019 by J3Hetzer

[J99_Sizzlorr]

Haven't noticed the altitude problem yet...

[BMA_Hellbender]

Of course you wouldn't with your bloody Höhengas!

[J99_Sizzlorr]

14 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

Of course you wouldn't with your bloody Höhengas!

 ?

 

No in all seriousness is there really an altitude problem on the J5 Server? I have met plenty of people up between 2000m and 3500m. It sounds like there is even more going on down in the mud?

 

Edit: I think a good soloution to this problem (if it exists) is to have more two seater objectives up high counting towards the War Stress Level (WSL), like correcting artillery fire, trench mapping or contact patrols for example. Also balloons are still missing, which brought people at least to a height of 1500m. One could also put some expert AI Anti Aircraft MGs in the trenches. This would put them up at least 500m.

 

If there is more to do up in the air, people will be there...

Edited October 19, 2019 by J99Sizzlorr

[Zooropa_Fly]

I think ai and people kills should be kept seperate.

It's worth noting that the (ace) bots in FC fly much better than RoF ones.Thing is, if they fly to the levels of an inexperienced human pilot - they still shoot like Lee Harvey Oswald.

Also always thought it would be good to be able to set a bots' flying skills and gunnery seperately - would make for a more dynamic experience.

 

Streaks - in-house are great, but so was the global kill streak - it was one of only two stats I cared about. (The other being shooting % which bizzarely isn't given to us in BoX stats).

But with in-house streaks you can go and get splattered elsewhere, then return to your favourite server and give it the 'full real' still alive spin.

There's no reason for both not to exist.

 

As for flying around for half an hour looking for a fight vs some fast action dogfighting...

Neither is actually any closer to real life than the other.

 

 

[BMA_Hellbender]

Just now, J99Sizzlorr said:

 ?

 

No in all seriousness is there really an altitude problem on the J5 Server? I have met plenty of people up between 2000m and 3500m. It sounds like there is even more going on down in the mud. 

 

Haha, I was kidding but you're right, it's a fair question.

 

I've been flying almost exclusively Entente in the past two weeks (Central is usually stacked) and it's true that fights are going above 3000m or even happen on the deck, mostly because people are looking for each other, and that's where you need to go to find the D.VIIFs and the Camels, respectively. Most of the time, though, there is very little happening at all. Some people have noted that they spend their entire time flying without finding a soul. While it may be realistic, I don't think it's a good long term situation.

 

What we quickly figured out in the Bristol, is that by staying below 2000m and forcing D.VIIFs to come down instead, we have a much better fighting chance. There's very little incentive for us to go higher other than we're bored and want action. On the other hand, I see very few Central flyers choosing an Alby or Dr.I and duking it out with Camels down low. Again, why the hell would they?

 

What AI would do is give Entente a reason to climb to 10,000ft and subject themselves to you, and for Central flyers to stick around the deck and go up against the likes of @SeaW0lf. If nothing else it would lead to more action, which is what we need on weeknights. I feel that with the very unbalanced planeset and relatively large map, we otherwise run the risk of running out of steam in a matter of weeks. J5 Flugpark doesn't need to become a Fast Food BERLOGA style server, but it needs to be a place where you can log on and know you'll see action.

[Panzerlang]

16 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

I think ai and people kills should be kept seperate.

It's worth noting that the (ace) bots in FC fly much better than RoF ones.Thing is, if they fly to the levels of an inexperienced human pilot - they still shoot like Lee Harvey Oswald.

Also always thought it would be good to be able to set a bots' flying skills and gunnery seperately - would make for a more dynamic experience.

 

Streaks - in-house are great, but so was the global kill streak - it was one of only two stats I cared about. (The other being shooting % which bizzarely isn't given to us in BoX stats).

But with in-house streaks you can go and get splattered elsewhere, then return to your favourite server and give it the 'full real' still alive spin.

There's no reason for both not to exist.

 

As for flying around for half an hour looking for a fight vs some fast action dogfighting...

Neither is actually any closer to real life than the other.

 

 

Me and my brother are regularly flying against a mix of high and ace AI and while the AI certainly doesn't fly like a novice its gunnery isn't particularly good or bad. Going into a fight against five of them is no cake-walk but neither is it insta-death. We've not tackled the 2-seaters yet though (they're set to normal, to nerf the arcade rear gunners hopefully).

Flying around for half an hour, try two hours and seeing nothing (the common lot of the WW1 pilot). My brother got bored of that so I turned on the AV. Lol.

I guess the difference is e-sport vs simulated combat experience and I totally get why most are into the former. But call stuff accurately and stop pretending the AI is unrealistic. If it is it's only because it actually flies and fights better than most of the real pilots did. Most of them were too scared to do more than a standard bank when attacked, if they even saw their attacker coming. Pretending otherwise is sheer snobbery in my opinion.

 

"Good photographs required both skilled flying and an operator who could devote time to handle the camera and the unwieldy and heavy glass plates it required. In time, longer focal length lenses were used, cameras and gear grew lighter and bigger, and for survival, operating altitudes increased up to the 12-18,000 foot level. Driven high, aircrews began to use oxygen and heated clothing items."

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by J3Hetzer

[J99_Sizzlorr]

3 minutes ago, J5_Hellbender said:

 

Haha, I was kidding but you're right, it's a fair question.

 

I've been flying almost exclusively Entente in the past two weeks (Central is usually stacked) and it's true that fights are going above 3000m or even happen on the deck, mostly because people are looking for each other, and that's where you need to go to find the D.VIIFs and the Camels, respectively. Most of the time, though, there is very little happening at all. Some people have noted that they spend their entire time flying without finding a soul. While it may be realistic, I don't think it's a good long term situation.

 

What we quickly figured out in the Bristol, is that by staying below 2000m and forcing D.VIIFs to come down instead, we have a much better fighting chance. There's very little incentive for us to go higher other than we're bored and want action. On the other hand, I see very few Central flyers choosing an Alby or Dr.I and duking it out with Camels down low. Again, why the hell would they?

 

What AI would do is give Entente a reason to climb to 10,000ft and subject themselves to you, and for Central flyers to stick around the deck and go up against the likes of @SeaW0lf. If nothing else it would lead to more action, which is what we need on weeknights. I feel that with the very unbalanced planeset and relatively large map, we otherwise run the risk of running out of steam in a matter of weeks. J5 Flugpark doesn't need to become a Fast Food BERLOGA style server, but it needs to be a place where you can log on and know you'll see action.

If people complain they fly around and they don't see anybody, maybe we should get back to AV. There were certainly no complaints on that matter, when AV was on last week.

 

With J5_Darling in your Bristol altitude doesn't matter, he fires upwards just as good as downwards

The thing with taking it out in Albatros' over the trenches with Camels, is that the Albatros as we have it in FC right now was outclassed even 1917, there is literally nothing you can do against a Camel, which turns better, climbs better and is faster than you. In the Albatros you need that altitude advantage against anything. 

[Zooropa_Fly]

I love fighting bots - the times I play it's my only option just now !

Having had my first taste of some NFF server-type action this week in FC, I'm finally getting into it. Trouble is there's not a server to cater for that yet.

In comparison to RoF : the bots utilise energy rather than flat turns ; dont' drag you to the deck instantly ; haven't had FF or been rammed by one yet either !

Come to think of it I haven't taken many bullets from the bot 'ace' fighters so maybe they aren't so uber after all - the 2 seat gunners seem to be though, and on 'high' setting.

They also open fire at 1km which is a bit disconcerting. Is this ww2 setting that might change for release.. ?

But it's a fact of life that some people hate bots and take no pleasure in shooting them down.

 

If this game is to succeed it needs to pull in the regular fast action junkies, as well as the 1/week mission specialists.

So all types of game play should be respected and encouraged.

 

 

[BMA_Hellbender]

1 minute ago, J99Sizzlorr said:

If people complain they fly around and they don't see anybody, maybe we should get back to AV. There were certainly no complaints on that matter, when AV was on last week.

 

With J5_Darling in your Bristol altitude doesn't matter, he fires upwards just as good as downwards

The thing with taking it out in Albatros' over the trenches with Camels, is that the Albatros as we have it in FC right now was outclassed even 1917, there is literally nothing you can do against a Camel, which turns better, climbs better and is faster than you. In the Albatros you need that altitude advantage against anything. 

 

I really dislike AV because it messes with your distance perception, though I think it only affects people flying at 1080p and it works better with 4K or VR. If it comes to that, I'd rather just have icons, which is fair to everyone. The new icons are supposedly good, I haven't tried them yet. Still not a fan of icons, though, zooming in and out to spot targets is as close to scanning and focusing in real life as we can hope for.

 

Agreed about the planeset, though. What we have now is basically: D.VIIF (above 3000m) > pretty much everything Entente > the other Central planes. Feel free to comment on our LiveJournal blog post about it (it needs an update for the physiology effects). Darling is hardly a good basis of comparison, but even then, fighting a D.VIIF at 3000m is hard as hell, and it should be. Same for fighting Camels on the deck.

 

To return to the topic of AI two-seaters, it's to force those engagements to actually happen and reward you for it. You could say that it's a better idea to have everyone, including the two-seaters flying at 2000m. But that is not at all historical, nor fair on Central, especially for the Halberstadts who used to fly at less than 100ft (I'm not sure how well the AI can do that). Once we have the bombers we can have those flying at around 2000m where they belong, but for now this is what we have.

[Panzerlang]

There's no valid reason not to have the halbs doing high-alt recon flights, any more than using the Bristols for the same.

As for servers, I've had a little go using my PC as a VR-only venue on two nights of the week. I think it probably had all the WW1 VR players on it (less than two handfuls, lol). So the thing there is trying to justify spending a bunch of cash on a dedicated box that can be run 24/7 when next to nobody would make use of it (and that's talking about throwing it open to all, not VR-only). I have no idea if the e-sport emphasis has driven people away from MP and thus no way to gauge if running realistic scenarios would bring them back and justify the cost.

[Zooropa_Fly]

Icons are still far too over-bearing, even if they disappear behind things now. (Although the way it's been done the icon is 'part of the plane' and stays vivible after the plane disappears).

This game badly needs a flexible icons system.. but that's another topic.

I don't think icons would ever be agreeable to the majority who frequent, say the current J5 server.

[Panzerlang]

Icons are arcade, period. I'd rather be myopic AND have grease smeared on my goggles (VR). Lol.

But when the setup is e-sport I can't see that it matters.

Edited October 19, 2019 by J3Hetzer

[Zooropa_Fly]

Well, I find the concept of someone sitting with a VR headset on crying 'arcade' over one single game setting... well...

S!

[DD_Arthur]

1 hour ago, J3Hetzer said:

PvP-only servers present about as bogus a sim experience as I can think of. It's not a simulation of WW1 air combat, it's an e-sport. 

 

Agree and stats only encourage this.

 

In the meantime; bring on Bender's two-seaters!

[US63_SpadLivesMatter]

2 hours ago, J3Hetzer said:

Now we have physiology AND a vastly improved AI, that flys combat better than many of the real novices ever did until they were killed, the AI is most certainly legit. Killing it is no more easy than seal-clubbing noobs.

 

 

Can confirm, FC AI is waaaay better than RoF noobs.

 

Flew about an hour last night 8pm PST, praying for someone else to log on (nobody did).  No way I would have lasted that long trying to seed the server without those AI.

[Panzerlang]

59 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Well, I find the concept of someone sitting with a VR headset on crying 'arcade' over one single game setting... well...

S!

That's talking about how one sees as opposed to what one sees.
 

Here's the thing, as I see it (my opinion)...all you veteran sim flyers, who have championed the PvP-only scenario, be it on fast-food air-quake servers or mission-oriented ones, have done more to drive away newcomers to the MP scene than probably any single other reason (there are others in the mix). While you were whooping it up and having fun clubbing them you killed your own environment. Most likely if they'd had targets they could cope with (AI) and a way to both grow their confidence and skills they'd have stuck around. Own the consequences, a moribund MP scene.

Edited October 19, 2019 by J3Hetzer