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von_Tom

Valve Index website now live

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I've managed to do some testing.  4 x G6s v 4 x La5FNs, random skill set (including me) over Novorossiysk.  Cloudy, with the merge at 3k.  What I found was this....

 

Turning/tracking enemies etc at 3k was 89/90.

Tracking/fighting at around 2k and it dropped to between 75 (looking down) and 85 looking level).

Tracking/fighting firing at 1k dropped to between 70 (looking down) and 75 (looking level) (it was 89/90 looking up).

Turning at 500m to 1k (not watching enemy fighters) was bizarre because it would drop to the low 70s but a lot of the time it was round 85 (which makes no sense) and then it would drop into the 60s for no apparent reason

Landing fluctuated between 55 and 90 again for no apparent reason

Flying down roads between the trees was between 65 and 75

 

I can see that I have gone wrong using the in-game fps counter because then by default you are looking up to your right and by default that is into the sky rather than down at the ground.  In my defence I am not particularly interested in testing stuff, just whether or not it works well enough for me. 

 

@bombdetere in my opinion it's worth it.  I used to agonise over fps but after about 10min using it I turned the fps counter off.  Full retail price is a lot of money though.

 

von Tom

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19 minutes ago, von_Tom said:

 

I've managed to do some testing.  4 x G6s v 4 x La5FNs, random skill set (including me) over Novorossiysk.  Cloudy, with the merge at 3k.  What I found was this....

 

Turning/tracking enemies etc at 3k was 89/90.

Tracking/fighting at around 2k and it dropped to between 75 (looking down) and 85 looking level).

Tracking/fighting firing at 1k dropped to between 70 (looking down) and 75 (looking level) (it was 89/90 looking up).

Turning at 500m to 1k (not watching enemy fighters) was bizarre because it would drop to the low 70s but a lot of the time it was round 85 (which makes no sense) and then it would drop into the 60s for no apparent reason

Landing fluctuated between 55 and 90 again for no apparent reason

Flying down roads between the trees was between 65 and 75

 

I can see that I have gone wrong using the in-game fps counter because then by default you are looking up to your right and by default that is into the sky rather than down at the ground.  In my defence I am not particularly interested in testing stuff, just whether or not it works well enough for me. 

 

@bombdetere in my opinion it's worth it.  I used to agonise over fps but after about 10min using it I turned the fps counter off.  Full retail price is a lot of money though.

 

von Tom

 

i think with Index's different refresh rates (72hz with motion smoothing or 144hz without, wondering if it's even possible) it may be acceptable, i'll test it out when it gets released.

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If I just want to do just flight and racing sims in VR with the Index, do I need the entire $1000 package? Or just the headset and sensor?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

Ha, Ha Ha, we need a proper benchmark to finish all these iterative comments.

 

I tend to believe what Dburne says. Not only because he has the top machine (CPU/Mobo/GPU) but also because other people with that CPU run the becnhmark in the past and they were also very close to 90fps (look to the table).

 

It mus be taken into account that Dburne is using Rift which has much less resolution that O+.

JonRedCorn, with your CPU at 5.0 and a 1080Ti and the Rift with 150%SS, and benchmark  settings you should also be very close to 90fps most of the time. If not something is wrong in your system. Please, use fpsVR app to determine what is blocking your system.

 I would not say exactly a "similar system".

First, he uses the Rift, not the O+.

Second he has a 2080Ti, not a 1080Ti

Third, he has a 9900K at 5.1 (no AVX) with a larger L3 cache than yours. We really don´t know the role that L3 cache plays with IL-2 VR.

 

Yeah I have absolutely zero motivation to not be truthful with what I am getting.

I just provided the information that may be helpful for some currently looking at a new build.

And to show even with a rig like this, constant 90 fps in VR with no drops in fps is still not possible , at least in the two flight sims I currently own.

In some Oculus games, heck yeah no problem.

 

Edited by dburne

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, von_Tom said:

 

I've managed to do some testing.  4 x G6s v 4 x La5FNs, random skill set (including me) over Novorossiysk.  Cloudy, with the merge at 3k.  What I found was this....

 

Turning/tracking enemies etc at 3k was 89/90.

Tracking/fighting at around 2k and it dropped to between 75 (looking down) and 85 looking level).

Tracking/fighting firing at 1k dropped to between 70 (looking down) and 75 (looking level) (it was 89/90 looking up).

Turning at 500m to 1k (not watching enemy fighters) was bizarre because it would drop to the low 70s but a lot of the time it was round 85 (which makes no sense) and then it would drop into the 60s for no apparent reason

Landing fluctuated between 55 and 90 again for no apparent reason

Flying down roads between the trees was between 65 and 75

 

I can see that I have gone wrong using the in-game fps counter because then by default you are looking up to your right and by default that is into the sky rather than down at the ground.  In my defence I am not particularly interested in testing stuff, just whether or not it works well enough for me. 

 

@bombdetere in my opinion it's worth it.  I used to agonise over fps but after about 10min using it I turned the fps counter off.  Full retail price is a lot of money though.

 

von Tom

Shocking.

 

Also it's not no apparent reason, the reason is the games incredibly CPU limited.

 

Just looking in certain directions on certain locations of maps will cut your frames in half. They drop when you look at forests, towns and cities, and at other densely populated areas. Honestly I only press on with this because people think if they spend 2k dollars on a computer they will get 90 fps in this game in their VR headset based on what some people say here. They won't and it doesn't matter how much money you spend you never will. You would get those same results dropping the game to high, or even under some circumstances on balanced. But balanced greatly reduces ground density and draw distance of objects, which gives you much higher frames. But then you are stuck with the crappy blocky clouds.

 

If I save one person from wasting 1300 dollars on a 2080ti then I've done my job.

5 hours ago, bombdetere said:

 

i've been on the fence about getting a 2080ti myself since it came out, and was looking for a glimpse of positive feedback from the players here to sway me in to buying that expensive monstrosity. 😄  If your benchmark truly shows a significant improvement you'll get a convert in your camp. Right now i'm 8700k (5.1) and 1080ti flying on Balanced. It's the only way I can hang with 15+ players furballs in MP. 

Don't waste your money.

Edited by JonRedcorn
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1 hour ago, kestrel79 said:

If I just want to do just flight and racing sims in VR with the Index, do I need the entire $1000 package? Or just the headset and sensor?

 

I believe you can get just the headset and one lighthouse sensor, but I don't actually know how SteamVR setup works. You might need a controller of some kind to click things. You can mix and match systems though, so if you already have Oculus Rift controllers you can use those through SteamVR with any other SteamVR compatible headset.

7 hours ago, dburne said:

My i9 9900k CPU is running at 5.1 GHz on all cores, no AVX offset, and my 2080 Ti running between 2050 Mhz and 2100 MHz depending on GPU temp.

I run 1.6 SS and Graphics on Ultra.

 

😲  Daamn that's a nice setup. I knew you'd bought all that stuff didn' t realize you'd settled on 5.1 with zero AVX. Sweet.

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2 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

 

If I save one person from wasting 1300 dollars on a 2080ti then I've done my job.

 

 

If I'd not bought one I'd be running at mid-40s.  Worth it for me, though the real cost to me is not as much.

 

von Tom

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2 hours ago, Alonzo said:

 

😲  Daamn that's a nice setup. I knew you'd bought all that stuff didn' t realize you'd settled on 5.1 with zero AVX. Sweet.

 

Thanks much, I am very satisfied with it for sure!

It has been rock solid for me so far.

 

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2 hours ago, dburne said:

 

Thanks much, I am very satisfied with it for sure!

It has been rock solid for me so far.

 

So post benchmarks.

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When you fly verse AI, your CPU is crunching the numbers for all the planes; verse real people it isn't so your performance will be better on multi player servers.

  😉

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6 hours ago, Alonzo said:

 

I believe you can get just the headset and one lighthouse sensor, but I don't actually know how SteamVR setup works. You might need a controller of some kind to click things. 

 

I have a OG Vive, you would just set it to seated mode rather than room scale and either guess the floor distance or place the headset on the floor.

 

Only get one base station if you have zero intention of using room scale.

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16 hours ago, JonRedcorn said:

If it did we'd see far larger gains between a 4 core i3 and a i7 with the 6 cores. There's no difference

 

Well, we had some cases from the table to compare influence of L3 cache for same speed:

 

1.- Here we can see two 16Mb L3 cache (i9-9900K) versus 12Mb (8086K) versus 9Mb cache (9600K and 8600K) at same 5.0GHz speed (but different version). No difference for 16 and 12. And 6 fps for the i5`s.

897390768_i5vsi7-i9cache.thumb.jpg.0ba22510c4d19dea30e0be46a8245d39.jpg

 

2.- Here almost no difference (but different versions)

153442790_i5-i7cache.thumb.jpg.edb1e1bd0095be0af991acc0dfc33c0b.jpg

 

3.- Here small difference between 7700K (8MB cache) versos 8700K (12 Mb cache)

87vs77.thumb.jpg.ccd3a77763685138db17214ec068604e.jpg

 

So you are mostly right. No measurable difference so far for 12Mb vs 16Mb. But some small difference (3-6 fps) for 12Mb vs 8-9 Mb. But very few test done.

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14 hours ago, Drum said:

When you fly verse AI, your CPU is crunching the numbers for all the planes; verse real people it isn't so your performance will be better on multi player servers.

  😉

 

I could argue it the other way—when you are flying multiplayer your machine is processing network data from other pilots and predicting their locations, thus using CPU. Unless you measure, there is no way to know. Your statement about MP performance being better than SP vs AI is pure speculation.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

Well, we had some cases from the table to compare influence of L3 cache for same speed:

 

1.- Here we can see two 16Mb L3 cache (i9-9900K) versus 12Mb (8086K) versus 9Mb cache (9600K and 8600K) at same 5.0GHz speed (but different version). No difference for 16 and 12. And 6 fps for the i5`s.

897390768_i5vsi7-i9cache.thumb.jpg.0ba22510c4d19dea30e0be46a8245d39.jpg

 

2.- Here almost no difference (but different versions)

153442790_i5-i7cache.thumb.jpg.edb1e1bd0095be0af991acc0dfc33c0b.jpg

 

3.- Here small difference between 7700K (8MB cache) versos 8700K (12 Mb cache)

87vs77.thumb.jpg.ccd3a77763685138db17214ec068604e.jpg

 

So you are mostly right. No measurable difference so far for 12Mb vs 16Mb. But some small difference (3-6 fps) for 12Mb vs 8-9 Mb. But very few test done.

If anything those charts make it painfully obvious how little effect the GPU has on overall performance. 1080's and 2080s scoring the same avg frame rate as 1080ti's and 2080ti's. Waste of money. Pretty sure all these benches were also ran on balanced were they not? What's unfortunate is the only o+ bench we have was ASW limited.

Edited by JonRedcorn

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Posted (edited)

I ordered an index. And managed to buy another bundle. Both for delivery on June 28th.
Now lets see how the price develops. Probably one of both sets pays for the other:)

 

Edit: My preorders adre back to other people. Decided to go with a Pimax 5k instead.

Edited by Winger

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I got the 2080ti because I intend to get the Reverb and run it at native resolution * 1.2

 

There are reasons for her, but they are very very niche.

 

One thing though is, that after seeing ray tracing in action in Metro Exodus, I honestly can say that the difference is like night and day - and I wish it would find its way into IL-2 / DCS. I know I know, just hopes, probably never fulfilled. It really is that much better. I just thought "meh" before, but afterwards it feels like comparing a watercolor postcard to an actual photograph.

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Posted (edited)

Just surprising that Oculus Abrash prediction turned out to be Valve Index...

 

 

 

Edited by chiliwili69

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Tested just did a week-long testing and have an in-depth impressions video out:

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I already don't like the head strap, it looks bulky, the CV1 strap is by far the best strap I've ever used. Halo is crap, and this one looks half way between the halo and the CV1. Movies look amazing in the O+ on big screen, but leaning back in a chair with a headrest is horribly uncomfortable. Hope this ones not too bulky feeling.

 

Think I will eventually pick this one up, Valve is a great company, the increased FOV, LCD's with the same res as the o+ and vive pro sound pretty good, headphones, no halo, and the biggest thing in my opinion, is the adjustable refresh rate, that's huge, think it goes down to 75hz, I've said it before and the 60hz that the O+ can use is just too low, the 3d effect is diminished, and the screens is very dark and washed out since the pixel persistence is too low at 60hz, the LCD might not even have this issue.

 

But being able to tweak the Hz is huge for performance. Probably end up selling the rift and the o+ and grab this thang.

Edited by JgonRedcorn

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Posted (edited)

I had my hopes up for this one. But, at ~11.30 they compare the lenses and sweetspot size to vive gen1 optics. Narrow sweetspot and as I understand it the first vive was behind the cv1 in that regard. "it's as if they moved over the gen1 vive lenses and added some wider field of view" They didn't really have anything positive to say there.

Unless the cosmos can deliver, pimax is leading the show for me. 

Edited by SvAF/F16_radek

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30 minutes ago, SvAF/F16_radek said:

I had my hopes up for this one. But, at ~11.30 they compare the lenses and sweetspot size to vive gen1 optics. Narrow sweetspot and as I understand it the first vive was behind the cv1 in that regard. "it's as if they moved over the gen1 vive lenses and added some wider field of view" They didn't really have anything positive to say there.

Unless the cosmos can deliver, pimax is leading the show for me. 

That's not what the reviews say at all. They are saying the sweets pot is 110 degrees. Basically the entire field of view of the gen 1 devices. You are sorely mistaken. 

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4 minutes ago, JgonRedcorn said:

That's not what the reviews say at all. They are saying the sweets pot is 110 degrees. Basically the entire field of view of the gen 1 devices. You are sorely mistaken. 



https://youtu.be/HuobWbxGfnY?t=659


Hoping the timestamp works in that link. If not, at exactly 11 minutes in.

 

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2 hours ago, SvAF/F16_radek said:

 



https://youtu.be/HuobWbxGfnY?t=659


Hoping the timestamp works in that link. If not, at exactly 11 minutes in.

 

Yes, to quote speaking about god rays and sweet spot " ..feels very 'first generation to me' like they just ported over from the Vive...."

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See

 for a clarification on the optics quality issue.

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On 5/29/2019 at 10:56 AM, coconut said:

See

 for a clarification on the optics quality issue.

Was pretty dumb of them to say that. Obviously people who want to see the index fail jumped all over it. For whatever reason. Everyone has said the sweet spot, IE how clear the image is all the way to the edge of the screen, is amazing, it's nearly 110 degrees of clear view, as said in other reviews the image is clear for the entire FOV of gen 1 headsets. it only starts to get slightly blurry after that. Pretty damn amazing.

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seems everything is on track!!, verifying address now.

Estimated delivery 28th-June.

index.jpg.835350f296b4217c4bc0e7f9c11338be.jpg

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8 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

seems everything is on track!!, verifying address now.

Estimated delivery 28th-June.

index.jpg.835350f296b4217c4bc0e7f9c11338be.jpg

If you decide to go with the Reverb instead you can sell this one to me! 😋

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Posted (edited)

pretty cool FOV write up from the Index guys..

 

https://www.valvesoftware.com/sv/index/deep-dive/fov

 

and their comment to canted displays, which I think they mean there'll be a SteamVR update to incorporate a fix without relying on the game devs:

 

*********

The main downside of canting is that both the existing software content library and the field of GPU rendering hardware are all typically optimized for parallel eyes. Fortunately, this may be readily compensated for in software using the re-projection techniques we already depend on for maintaining a constant frame rate. We just need to do a tiny bit every frame.... This way, apps past, present, and future may continue rendering in parallel as they always have, and they will "just work" for HMDs with mild amounts of cant angles.

*********

Edited by pomdeterre
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That´s a very nice and easy to read explanation with animated drawings about factors influencing FOV.

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Another confirmation from valve that index will be dispatched on time.

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I received this email today. The thing is getting closer!!

 

image.thumb.png.d8a053f401c16d6a98a48abf382f013f.png

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If ordered today - it won't be shipped until next September...did I get this right?

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36 minutes ago, Blitzen said:

If ordered today - it won't be shipped until next September...did I get this right?

 

they're defining them in "waves" now, so who knows at this point..

 

I'd suggest waiting for the early buyers to get disappointed in them for one reason or another and sell them off. I'm expecting to get mine this Friday. If I don't like the color contrast due to LCD screen (vs OLED) I'll definitely sell it just like I did with my 5k+, no matter how comfortable it may be  along side of some increased FOV.   IL2 really shines with deep contrasts and to me it's the candy that I can't let go off.

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11 hours ago, pomdeterre said:

I'll definitely sell it just like I did with my 5k+, no matter how comfortable it may be  along side of some increased FOV.   IL2 really shines with deep contrasts and to me it's the candy that I can't let go off

 

I didn´t know you sold your 5K+. Do you know you can adjust colors with the Lefuneste mod? Did you try that? Did you adjust your gamma in IL-2?

 

So, which is your current headset?

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11 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

I didn´t know you sold your 5K+. Do you know you can adjust colors with the Lefuneste mod? Did you try that? Did you adjust your gamma in IL-2?

 

So, which is your current headset?

 

yeah, i've played around with settings for about a week and didn't find any middle ground there. Lefuneste's mod is most obvious on the monitor, however in VR it's 1-2% difference. The brightness/contrast controls in pitools would make everything either super bright where the white color would start clipping and overpowering everything, or too dark without any ability to discern the small details...

 

I use vivepro with the gearvr mod.

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Posted (edited)

I have had a HTC Vive for 3 years and been playing IL2-GB for about 18 months on average 3-5 days a week so I have had a lot of usage out of the Vive. I have enjoyed every minute I have flown online(only fly online MP unless testing new aircraft) using it.

The new Index headset has turned up today and I must say I think it has been a great upgrade from Vive. The picture clarity is way better, can see way more detail on objects, aircraft, etc. Never had a problem with spotting aircraft, but now can ID them a lot sooner ;).

 

I am still testing settings on how to get the best balance, but at the moment preset= high, clouds=high, HDR=off, Shadows=low, Mirrors=simple, Distance Landscape Detail= 3x, AA=2x, Steam VR=100%, 80hz and it seems to be maintaining the 80fps. The big test will be on an online server, so

testing still to be done.

 

The sound from the speakers is very good also, bit more bass.

 

One big difference I noticed was the brightness if I was using the Vive my gamma would be set to 0.6, now with the Index HDR on 0.8 or 0.9, HDR off 1.0 or 1.1.

 

My PC is a 4.7OC 6700k, 1080Ti, 16GB 3000mhz Mem.

 

Everyone has their own take on what settings they like to run in the game, and what headset they like, but from what I have seen so far today the Index is a good upgrade from the Vive :).

<S>

 

Edited by Black-Bart
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43 minutes ago, Black-Bart said:

I have had a HTC Vive for 3 years and been playing IL2-GB for about 18 months on average 3-5 days a week so I have had a lot of usage out of the Vive. I have enjoyed every minute I have flown online(only fly online MP unless testing new aircraft) using it.

The new Index headset has turned up today and I must say I think it has been a great upgrade from Vive. The picture clarity is way better, can see way more detail on objects, aircraft, etc. Never had a problem with spotting aircraft, but now can ID them a lot sooner ;).

 

I am still testing settings on how to get the best balance, but at the moment preset= high, clouds=high, HDR=off, Shadows=low, Mirrors=simple, Distance Landscape Detail= 3x, AA=2x, Steam VR=100%, 80hz and it seems to be maintaining the 80fps. The big test will be on an online server, so

testing still to be done.

 

The sound from the speakers is very good also, bit more bass.

 

One big difference I noticed was the brightness if I was using the Vive my gamma would be set to 0.6, now with the Index HDR on 0.8 or 0.9, HDR off 1.0 or 1.1.

 

My PC is a 4.7OC 6700k, 1080Ti, 16GB 3000mhz Mem.

 

Everyone has their own take on what settings they like to run in the game, and what headset they like, but from what I have seen so far today the Index is a good upgrade from the Vive :).

<S>

 

 

I believe you are the first Valve Index user in IL-2 - Congrats!

 

How is the FOV compared to the VIVE?

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My wing leader Black-Witch actually got his yesterday and as he was testing it out, all I got was how good it was, etc, so as you can guess it was a long day lol.

 

From what we tested yesterday me in the Vive and him in Index it seemed that he could see more width and height in the cockpit than me, but nothing major. I know not a great answer like exactly in degrees. But FOV has never been a problem for us as we always fly as a pair, and line abreast, which off sets it a lot.

 

<S>

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1 hour ago, Black-Bart said:

I have had a HTC Vive for 3 years and been playing IL2-GB for about 18 months on average 3-5 days a week so I have had a lot of usage out of the Vive. I have enjoyed every minute I have flown online(only fly online MP unless testing new aircraft) using it.

The new Index headset has turned up today and I must say I think it has been a great upgrade from Vive. The picture clarity is way better, can see way more detail on objects, aircraft, etc. Never had a problem with spotting aircraft, but now can ID them a lot sooner ;).

 

I am still testing settings on how to get the best balance, but at the moment preset= high, clouds=high, HDR=off, Shadows=low, Mirrors=simple, Distance Landscape Detail= 3x, AA=2x, Steam VR=100%, 80hz and it seems to be maintaining the 80fps. The big test will be on an online server, so

testing still to be done.

 

The sound from the speakers is very good also, bit more bass.

 

One big difference I noticed was the brightness if I was using the Vive my gamma would be set to 0.6, now with the Index HDR on 0.8 or 0.9, HDR off 1.0 or 1.1.

 

My PC is a 4.7OC 6700k, 1080Ti, 16GB 3000mhz Mem.

 

Everyone has their own take on what settings they like to run in the game, and what headset they like, but from what I have seen so far today the Index is a good upgrade from the Vive :).

<S>

 

Very nice, I put a reservation on this set this week, might be a good while when I actually get it. Your performance is encouraging too, please do a quick mission in autumn/summer map and report how easy/hard it is to spot ground targets like tanks, I'm suffering with those greatly 😄

 

This looks also quite encouraging :

 

 

 

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