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Does IL-2 GB need to return to the Eastern Front?

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My vote goes for the Soccer War of 1969, between El Salvador and Honduras.

 

 

(Just kidding, btw)

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1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yeah, well, I'll take the experience of Jason in building and marketing these sorts of games over the past decade or so over your opinion. Look, it's really simple and blunt: no one gives a crap about a regional southeast Asian conflict in the mid-30s any more than they give a crap about the Spanish Civil War - to say nothing of the research effort needed for such a title. You think Jason and the guys have a hard time finding reliable material for WWII Japanese planes? It would be dramatically more difficult finding said info for mid-30s planes.

 

All of this reminds me of the laughable suggestions I've also heard for a flight sim depicting one of the wars between India and Pakistan in the Cold War. You gotta market to what interests people. 

If this was true , CFS WW2 genre ends with Bodenplatte.

Jason have aimed to get new people into this sim,  in that process he disregarded a great deal of old WW2 CFS people, he said if he had to rely on that base this project is dead already. So basically he do not act on experience gained since 2000 , he act on what he think is right. It is not exact science , rendering your answer to Finkern pretty arrogant. 

Do not ever use 18 years of CFS WW2 experience as a base for such an answer. We are a lot of people with the same experience not agreeing in this. 

The fact that the "player base " wants a new plane every day is not new, those bothering about what important actually feel this move too quickly .

It is something about this endless and enormous delivery of packs we are getting now that concerns me deeply.  The impression that people want faster airplanes might make one blind. I know a Finland map with a few extra planes. Buffalo and Fokker on Finland side. A couple of double-deckers on Russian side + a SB 2 . Would make money. Maybe more than a big pack . I believe there still is people wanting early war. Maybe there is a time in this games lifespan that it is proper to collect the old IL 2 player base. If you are right, this simply won't last long

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2 hours ago, Finkeren said:

 

...“forgotten battles”, and it was a huge success, not due to name recognition but due to it having stellar SP content and interesting stories to tell.

 

 

I think those days are gone now.  Those things began to disappear at about the same time that flight sims lost popular appeal.  

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37 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

Jason have aimed to get new people into this sim

 

And you don't do that by modeling the Second Sino-Japanese War or the Spanish Civil War. 

 

37 minutes ago, LuseKofte said:

rendering your answer to Finkern pretty arrogant

 

So, tell me, where are all those combat flight sims depicting mid-30s conflicts that had great sales numbers?

Edited by LukeFF

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People want a game that is authentic, important as far as portraying aviation history as much as it can, the good and bad.

 

There is as much potential in portraying events in China and Spain in the late thirties as there is to the great power fighters of the late forties in what was the greatest period of aircraft development the world has seen and as far as any kind of technological advances before or since.

 

We like to fly, does not matter if it is a Fokker DR1 or a late Griffon Spitfire.

 

Yes you have to stay viable as a business but you have to provide your customer with something they like or you go under.

 

What made/makes the old Il-2 so compelling, then and now is that it pushed the boundaries beyond what would be considered the norm and it won over many/most of those of us that have always had this fascination for aircraft.

 

This series claims to be the updated equivalent of that franchise so should be equally prepared to go where others might not in applying modern technology to the age old theme we love so much.

 

Thing is it will not come overnight, each will have to wait for their own particular favourite, and for some it could be a long wait.

 

I for one look forward to whatever is put out by these guys, barring a few issues, all has been good so far and has certainly been up to and exceeded most of our  expectations.

 

The old game took some time to get where it did, so will this, please do not dismiss out of hand those who request certain aircraft or scenarios because all are important and each due its own consideration going forward, cost cannot be the only consideration.

 

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.:biggrin:

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The only way to get a definitive answer to who would be interested in the lesser known air battles would be if everyone who owned any or all the BoX series would answered the question of what they want to see in the future. The odds of that happening are slim to none. Given that, all Jason and his team can do is use their own experience when deciding on future installments. I'd agree with Luke that it would lead to the demise of this series.

 

As an oldtimer, both in age and longevity in the flight sim world, I fit the demographic as an average user of this series. There was a poll here not so long ago that showed the average user was 40+ with many in my older age group, the 50-60 year old age group. It was a larger number than the youngsters here. It isn't good business, unless you are an AARP type business, trying to build it on an aging customer base. If the idea is to draw in a younger group, then most of those customers likely would not be interested in obscure battle grounds or aerial combat arenas with airplanes that most would not find familiar or glamorous. Ask an average 20 something year old who plays video games, what was a famous fighter plane from WWII and how many would be able to come up with an answer? 20%? 30% maybe? Now ask someone who hasn't played a lot of games and I'd bet the percentage goes way down. If they show any interest at all, it will be for the Messerschmitt, Spitfire, Mustang and Zero as they are the most well known. It isn't a lack of knowledge but more a lack of interest. WWII is fast receding into history. The interest in it will continue to diminish just as all human history does as those with any connection to the event leave this world. It's just human nature. While the world is still influenced by what happened 70 plus years ago, it doesn't affect daily life in an immediate way that makes an impact on our lives in a conscious way.

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5 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

So, tell me, where are all those combat flight sims depicting mid-30s conflicts that had great sales numbers?

 

In the year 2000 you might have asked “Where are all those combat flight sims depicting the Eastern Front of WW2 that had great sales numbers?” with equal amounts of confidence. 

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One thing Forgotten Battles proved, was that you can make even the least-known aircraft and scenario hugely successful - Providing you have the gameplay to back it up.

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2 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

 

In the year 2000 you might have asked “Where are all those combat flight sims depicting the Eastern Front of WW2 that had great sales numbers?” with equal amounts of confidence. 

Are you that confident it was the theater of action that drew people in or was it a combination of a higher level of flight dynamic, modeling of aircraft and game play? In my case, the theater wasn't the big draw. It was the feeling of flight and the feeling of "being there" that drew me in. The rest was more gravy than anything.

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I personally bought into the series despite the Eastern Front setting, not because of it.

I was drawn by better flight model, better ballistics, better damage modeling, and the hope that we'd get out of Russia some day.

 

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37 minutes ago, Rjel said:

Are you that confident it was the theater of action that drew people in or was it a combination of a higher level of flight dynamic, modeling of aircraft and game play? In my case, the theater wasn't the big draw. It was the feeling of flight and the feeling of "being there" that drew me in. The rest was more gravy than anything.

 

I never said it was the theater that drew people in, rather it was exactly the things you said. My point is: The theater wasn’t a huge drawback either.

 

By saying that this sim can’t sell a 2nd Sino-Japanese War setting to the players, you are essentially saying, that this sim doesn’t have the quality and expandability as well as room for new innovations in game play to draw in people and that it has to rely on familiarity and people’s nostalgia for things they’ve seen done well before. I simply don’t think that’s correct.

53 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

One thing Forgotten Battles proved, was that you can make even the least-known aircraft and scenario hugely successful - Providing you have the gameplay to back it up.

 

Exactly! Focus should be on improving and expanding gameplay. 

 

I know we are very likely moving to the Pacific with the next title, and that’s fine by me. It’s not my favorite, but it’ll still be a lot of fun. 

 

BUT: The question we (and the devs) need to ask ourselves is: How is this going to be better than the half a dozen PTO flight sims that came before? And more specifically: How is it going to improve on the last big title IL2-PF? 

 

The next title needs to be better than the title, that it is naturally going to be measured against, and not just in the areas, where this sim is already superior to the old IL2 (graphics, FM, DM, ballistics and whatnot) It needs to offer a gameplay experience that’s overall better than what we got from Pacific Fighters, and how is it going to do that? That’s a serious question that should occupy the minds of the devs far more than source material on Japanese aircraft.

Edited by Finkeren

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It's that so many more people were interested in high fidelity flight sims that they could get away with making the Eastern Front and have it sell in the largest market (in 2004, the US).

 

Now, they cannot get away with that based on a good sim alone.  Now, it needs to be a combination of a great game AND a popular setting if they want to sell the most copies possible. 

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14 minutes ago, II./JG1_EmerlistDavjack said:

It's that so many more people were interested in high fidelity flight sims that they could get away with making the Eastern Front and have it sell in the largest market (in 2004, the US).

 

Now, they cannot get away with that based on a good sim alone.  Now, it needs to be a combination of a great game AND a popular setting if they want to sell the most copies possible. 

 

The reason the original IL2 and several subsequent titles sold so well was, that it offered a great gameplay experience, not just good graphics and high fidelity (for the time) Otherwise CFS3 with its supposedly more popular setting would have beaten it off the market.

 

And that’s exactly what the Great Battles series needs to do: Deliver stellar gameplay. The setting is secondary.

 

The primary target group for recruiting new players are younger people who already play games like War Thunder and IL2-1946. These players are already familiar with the iconic aircraft of the Inter-war years, but they have never seen them put in a proper historical context. If this sim can offer great gameplay that surpasses IL2-1946 in every aspect (except for sheer number of plane types represented) then it can sell just about any setting and any plane set.

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35 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

 

I never said it was the theater that drew people in, rather it was exactly the things you said. My point is: The theater wasn’t a huge drawback either.

 

By saying that this sim can’t sell a 2nd Sino-Japanese War setting to the players, you are essentially saying, that this sim doesn’t have the quality and expandability as well as room for new innovations in game play to draw in people and that it has to rely on familiarity and people’s nostalgia for things they’ve seen done well before. I simply don’t think that’s correct.

 

If it were possible to simply add a minor theater, planes and missions to the sim in a quick way, then yes it might be possible. But when each new addition to the series is a year long process or more, and each seemingly a make or break chance for the team to take, then no I don't think it makes sense.

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59 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

I was drawn by better flight model, better ballistics, better damage modeling, and the hope that we'd get out of Russia some day.

 

 

There you have the key argument why most of us love this sim. It is not the scenario, but the mechanics. However everyone of us (those that already play GB) have different interests in different scenarios. It is the same with newcomers who have played sims in the far past or never played them at all. To gater their interest (newcomers) in GB you need to have a title which hooks with them. Which they heard about and interests them due to whatever reason. Otherwise you produce module after module for your installed base, but inevitably shrink your sales by only listening to those who already play your sim. You need to listen to the interests of those who don´t play your sim to increase your installed base. IMHO of course.

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13 minutes ago, Rjel said:

If it were possible to simply add a minor theater, planes and missions to the sim in a quick way, then yes it might be possible. But when each new addition to the series is a year long process or more, and each seemingly a make or break chance for the team to take, then no I don't think it makes sense.

 

Then you are essentially saying, that the CFS genre is dead. That the best we can hope for is a cycle of recreating the same handful of popular settings, with the same couple dozen popular aircraft with slight improvements in fidelity and graphics, but nothing ever quite living up to the nostalgia of the old IL2. I refuse to believe that.

 

I think the genre has the potential to not just live up to - but exceed the standards set by IL2-1946, to bring air battles to life that have never been seen in a sim before, to create new ways of storytelling through immersive careers, campaign modes, coop, mp, you name it. I want the Great Battles series to be front-and-center in this, but it takes determination, ambition and sometimes it means taking a risk.

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If your demographics are correct, and it's an older than average core driving this ship, be sure, we ain't into wasting our time.  This nonsense of expecting us to run multiple sims won't fly.  If your going to split up the gravy, in the end you will lose.

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11 minutes ago, Finkeren said:

 

Then you are essentially saying, that the CFS genre is dead. That the best we can hope for is a cycle of recreating the same handful of popular settings, with the same couple dozen popular aircraft with slight improvements in fidelity and graphics, but nothing ever quite living up to the nostalgia of the old IL2. I refuse to believe that.

 

I think the genre has the potential to not just live up to - but exceed the standards set by IL2-1946, to bring air battles to life that have never been seen in a sim before, to create new ways of storytelling through immersive careers, campaign modes, coop, mp, you name it. I want the Great Battles series to be front-and-center in this, but it takes determination, ambition and sometimes it means taking a risk.

 

Imagine a classic R.G. Smith painting depicting the Battle of Midway.  Don't you think most flight simmers would picture themselves being a guy in an SBD dropping a bomb on Kaga in an iconic battle, rather than be some guy from China flying a Goshawk?   Is the market now so saturated by Pacific War sims right now that people will say "meh, another battle between Wildcats and Zeros...give me China 1938 instead".  I don't think so.

 

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2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

And you don't do that by modeling the Second Sino-Japanese War or the Spanish Civil War. 

 

 

How do you know, much be nice to know all the things you do.

People might surplice you, I for one do not believe you and Jason got all the answers, however I do believe Jason has a strategy on how to run a business and follows it. That is completely different than knowledge. I think when  all this new stuff is over, it might be wise to go early / pre war. After all this game engine was made for lighter planes

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4 hours ago, Finkeren said:

They then followed it up with a title literally called “forgotten battles”, and it was a huge success, not due to name recognition but due to it having stellar SP content and interesting stories to tell.

 

I personally didn't buy IL2:FB for the allure of the scenario, but more the game engine improvements - the new maps and continuing to support the game in the hope that Western front planes wouldn't be far off.

Edited by =EXPEND=Tripwire
Clarity

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I would love to see a China scenario but its too much of a coin toss on whether it would be successful or not. I think a lot of people are simply not informed well enough about it to care, i can tell you as soon as i started to research the battles that took place over china i found it to be a very exciting period in aviation. (plus i love a good underdog story, who doesn't?)

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8 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

I personally didn't buy IL2:FB for the allure of the scenario, but more the game engine improvements - the new maps and continuing to support the game in the hope that Western front planes wouldn't be far off.

 

I probably bought Forgotten battles because it had a Hurricane shooting down a Stuka on the front and I was browsing the shelves at Best Buy looking for a new game.  Times were different then.  It's been a long long time since I played it.  Didn't Forgotten battles come with all or most of the content of the original IL-2: Sturmovik?  I played one of the Crimea campaigns, and yet I don't think I ever owned the original Sturmovik, only FB and Pacific fighters.  Am I misremembering, or am I correct in saying that Forgotten Battles was a lot more than just the Finnish stuff?

Edited by SeaSerpent

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1 hour ago, Finkeren said:

 

The reason the original IL2 and several subsequent titles sold so well was, that it offered a great gameplay experience, not just good graphics and high fidelity (for the time) Otherwise CFS3 with its supposedly more popular setting would have beaten it off the market.

 

 

You don't seem to see what I am saying.  You are absolutely correct about the original IL2 vs CFS3.  I personally played IL2 because, as you said, it was simply a better game than CFS3 in almost every way.  That era has gone.  There is no CFS3 type competition now.  Just IL2 and DCS and both leave plenty of room for the other.  That is because the market contracted, so now, a viable business has to go for the greatest number of folks if they want to maintain quality. 

 

Going full-niche is not going to help anything, otherwise I want an entire game with nothing but floatplanes hunting subs.   

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3 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

 

I probably bought Forgotten battles because it had a Hurricane shooting down a Stuka on the front and I was browsing the shelves at Best Buy looking for a new game.  Times were different then.  Besides, and it's been a long long time since I played it, didn't Forgotten battles come with all or most of the content of the original IL-2: Sturmovik?  I played one of the Crimea campaigns, but I don't think I ever owned the original Sturmovik, only FB and Pacific fighters.  Am I misremembering, or am I correct in saying that Forgotten Battles was a lot more than just the Finnish stuff?

Yes it did.

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Yeah, I remember Forgotten Battles as being a very complete flight sim.  The Wikipedia says 129 flyable aircraft.  It's a pipe dream to think we can get that today unless somehow the studio crowd-funds $1 million.

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1 hour ago, Finkeren said:

 

Then you are essentially saying, that the CFS genre is dead. That the best we can hope for is a cycle of recreating the same handful of popular settings, with the same couple dozen popular aircraft with slight improvements in fidelity and graphics, but nothing ever quite living up to the nostalgia of the old IL2. I refuse to believe that.

 

I think the genre has the potential to not just live up to - but exceed the standards set by IL2-1946, to bring air battles to life that have never been seen in a sim before, to create new ways of storytelling through immersive careers, campaign modes, coop, mp, you name it. I want the Great Battles series to be front-and-center in this, but it takes determination, ambition and sometimes it means taking a risk.

It isn't* necessarily dead, but it sure isn't a thriving genre either. IF and it is a mighty big if (snicker. I kill myself :) ) Jason found a backer with very big pockets and no concern about monetary returns on his investment, then I'd be all for experimenting and plenty of new theaters and niche corners of WWII to play in. But that isn't the reality. So yeah, for now, tried and true likely rule the day.

 

*isn't

Edited by Rjel

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8 minutes ago, Rjel said:

Yes it did.

 

Ok, yeah I thought so.  For this reason, I'm not quite so sure that I agree with Finkeren's contention that "Forgotten Battles" was all about Forgotten Battles and this demonstrates you can just give the market any old air conflict, and they'll eat it up.  I don't think I would have been as interested in it if it were just about Brewsters versus I-153's or something.  It had a lot more.

Edited by SeaSerpent
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6 minutes ago, SeaSerpent said:

Am I misremembering, or am I correct in saying that Forgotten Battles was a lot more than just the Finnish stuff?

 

Nope, you remember correctly.

 

I was going to buy it anyway, but for me the allure was the Hurricane - I was finally able to get out of my Lagg3 and Yak. Back then I didn't have anywhere near as much interest in the less well known battles as I do now. Targeting the big battles with well known planes is what brings in those that aren't already invested in the series.  Once they are hooked - then they branch out to other scenarios.

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4 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

Nope, you remember correctly.

 

I was going to buy it anyway, but for me the allure was the Hurricane - I was finally able to get out of my Lagg3 and Yak. Back then I didn't have anywhere near as much interest in the less well known battles as I do now. Targeting the big battles with well known planes is what brings in those that aren't already invested in the series.  Once they are hooked - then they branch out to other scenarios.

 

yep, same for me, back then.

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3 hours ago, Missionbug said:

We like to fly, does not matter if it is a Fokker DR1 or a late Griffon Spitfire.

 

C'mon, you know that is hardly the case. People want to fly what they know, and I'd be willing to bet that 8 or 9 out of 10 people would choose a Griffon Spitfire, every time. 

3 hours ago, Finkeren said:

In the year 2000 you might have asked “Where are all those combat flight sims depicting the Eastern Front of WW2 that had great sales numbers?” with equal amounts of confidence. 

 

The difference is that the Eastern Front was a gigantic theater of war. Something like the Spanish Civil War or the Khalkin-Gol Incident were sideshows, by comparison.

Edited by LukeFF

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After 20 years of following flight sims, I've discovered that I don't really mind what aircraft it is.  Whether it's a Potez or a P-51.  If the gameplay isn't there, it just isn't going to get my interest.

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The smaller conflicts could be fun but IMHO not worth a full title, especially with so much of WWII left. 

France 1940, BoB, Channel, North Africa, Italy, France 1944 ... lots of stuff left in the west.

Bagration, northern front, and many other battles still left to do in the east.

All of the pacific.

 

BTW: imagine Crimson skies with IL2 flight models.  I would buy it :)

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2 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

After 20 years of following flight sims, I've discovered that I don't really mind what aircraft it is.  Whether it's a Potez or a P-51.  If the gameplay isn't there, it just isn't going to get my interest.

To a degree, I'm the same way. But I find things that do maintain my interest. While there are still areas in this series that lack polish and some depth of play, I can find other things to entertain myself. Test flying has become my interest in this series as much as the combat aspect of it. I like to see how close some of these planes are to reality. I do it just for fun and only to please myself. Not as a way to create conflict with the developers. It's been a great way to explore some planes I really have little interest in. It also keeps me from becoming bored flying nothing but Bf-109s all the time. After flying IL-2 from the original demo, I have more hours in Messerschmitts than any other plane in the entire series. I've also enjoyed using it as a way to create "film", guncam and entertainment. Mostly just for my own enjoyment. I still believe this series will get to that gameplay depth you and many of us are looking for. I can be patient. 

7 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

BTW: imagine Crimson skies with IL2 flight models.  I would buy it :)

Me too. I did enjoy that game.

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The carrier war definitely has the Walter Mitty component that I think Combat Flight Simmers are looking for, but my personal primary concern is multiplayer playability.  You can't attack the Shoho every day in your Devastator.  So even though I would rather disembowel myself with a salad fork than agree with somebody like Gambit, I do think that a theater like New Guinea and the operations of 5th Air Force is the best bet (or earlier) if you want to have a simulation based on day-to-day battles that can sustain a robust and believable multiplayer environment.  I don't know though...it's hard to beat a tactical situation with a front line and forward airfields not too far apart like you have in the Eastern Front.  Is it 100% certain that North Africa, Med, and Italy are completely off the table because Team Fusion is doing them for CloD?

 

 

 

Edited by SeaSerpent

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With the Il2 series I was glad to have got out of the Western Front.  A genre poorly done and done to death by many by 2000.  Il2 brought to life what I consider the real crux of the war in the European theater with it's huge numbers of men and material along a vast front line.  Nothing else can compare with what the Soviets and Axis forces went through during that period of time.  It was hell where the outcomes of a single battle would see the decimation or capture of hundreds of thousands of people.

 

For the Western Europe, it was really more so Southern Europe where the fighting and progress is harsh but because Hollywood focuses on France and the low lands, the majority forget the slog that was from the Med up through the mountains.

 

Il2 Great Battles introduced me also to the country that I now call home.

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Pet peeve of mine - Nothing has been “done to death”, especially not done to death WELL.

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An exercise: what planes do we need to flesh out tactical warfare in Europe?  I'm not talking about every plane, just the critical ones.

Early on there are French types and the early Spitfire and Hurricane, as well as early Me109, Ju87, and Me110.

Battle of Britain uses those same planes, so it's a new map.

In Africa we probably need a different P40 and the next mark of Spitfire and Hurricane, plus some Italian.  German lineup is pretty good.  Not sure if early P-38s made an appearance.

By the time we get to Italy we can add some early American types: P-38, P-47, P-51B.  The British will already have Mk Vs.  The Germans are pretty well set.  Italian types I am less familiar with.

For France 1944 we already have a great stable of German types so a focus on American and British early 44.

For Bagration we will already have most German types so some Russian types would fill in the gap.

 

I think we are talking about 20-30 fighter types and maybe 10-20 tactical bombers.  

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Well we need the early Spit , Hurricane , Some french types BR 20  Some 3 engines Italian planes . You would need the DO 17 and Blenheim

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I would be glad, if the Pacific would be chosen for the next scenarios.

Probably it would attract new players and e. g. Guadalcanal has nearly everything you need for a new experience.

From fleet operations with CV and BB to air operations with long range bombers and fighters, the main ingrediences  for an exiting new install are there.

 

Please add a new aspect then: the needed navigation tools to fly over the vast areas of ocean. Interesting aspect, too. 

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7 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Battle of Britain uses those same planes, so it's a new map.

In Africa we probably need a different P40 and the next mark of Spitfire and Hurricane, plus some Italian.  German lineup is pretty good.  Not sure if early P-38s made an appearance.

By the time we get to Italy we can add some early American types: P-38, P-47, P-51B.  The British will already have Mk Vs.  The Germans are pretty well set.  Italian types I am less familiar with.

 

Different types of Spitfire Vbs were in Service that time. The trop variant was worse than the Spitfire Vb we know from IL2. The 109 E/F Trop had also differences which had a negative effect on the flight Quality. Overall the flight Quality of every trop plane was significant worse because the filter and bad weather(hot weather is bad flying weather). So small changes are needed.

But the Idea of North africa is super cool and awesome. It would be even nice to see 1c/777 helping Team Fusion with their 5.0 Project.

 

The life of a soldiers in North Africa, especially of a Pilot was everything but easy. Flying sleepy, ill, unhealthy Living coniditions took it's Tribute About their pilots.

But back to the Topic itself, i would really support that idea! But Team Fusion does a good Job and if then it should be supported and not made another North africa in my opinion.

I mean the DCS ww2 1944 idea was awesome but the struggle with the Moduls disappointed a lot People so the Bodenplatte idea was very good in my opinion which I fully support.

 

But I WANT Spanish Civil War OR Pacific. In first place. Quite obv if you check out my Squadron tag that I want SCW. But Korea is a bad Idea tho. I mean it's cool but with such Speeds you must Need another plane Rendering distance. And kicking very high Gs and blacking out all day Long isn't that much fun in my opinion. Even a G suit won't help under such coniditions. I know the Blackout effect in Great Battles isn't that great tho.. or let's say strong. But the Korean war Thing seems just a bit boring when they do SUCH A GOOD JOB with Propeller planes and their flight models, there are sooo many other battles that are 10 times more intresting.

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