The K-4 Isn't Special

[MiloMorai]

Willey Messerschmitt

Following World War II, Messerschmitt was tried by a denazification court for using slave labor, and in 1948 was convicted of collaborating with the Nazi regime. After two years in prison, he was released and resumed his position as head of his company.

 

Also what was not mentioned in Kurfy's extract from the USSBC document is that the Fw190 had a 'better fit and finish' than the Bf109.

 

[ZachariasX]

51 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

Do some digging on Russian news, state funding, RMHS and 1C  

Every monday morning they convene, checking whether they could fiendishly bias your bias. Every time they were not successful, someone got shot. 

[MiloMorai]

Doesn't matter what it says Kurfy as you yourself have stated that 1.98ata wasn't officially cleared for operational use til 20.3.45.

Edited September 15, 2018 by MiloMorai
bold text

[ZachariasX]

8 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

Would you kindly translate the following German text for us. Which you have seen, many times.

 

 

This is actually a rather funny document. This is from somebody typing up a report trying to not get his for doing something stupid, namely following Gallands (a man whose technical literacy ends with the use of a screwdriver) demand for „more power immediately“ by arbitary increasing boost levels to 1.98, that, when tried in test runs after demands have been made, reliably destroyed all 4 engines that they made test runs with. Naturally, people must have been fuming for such a moronic rating that kills engines went out as possible mod and heads must be rolling. We then have this  lad typing up that report essentially saying he wasnt the idiot (and neither the Technische Amt) who sent out that rating, it was much rather Galland.

 

 

[Kurfurst]

So would you translate what it says. Why keep dancing around it so much. 

[ZachariasX]

It says Galland came and demanded the 1.98 rating. The clerks present at the time duly followed orders and sent out that rating to the units. When testing the rating, it killed all engines they tried it with. The Technische Amt and engineers at DB were furious that this happened and now have to retract the issued 1.98 ata rating.

 

In short, @VO101Kurfurst, it really supports the argument that a 1.98 ata rating went out to the troops. It also gives a reason why it was retracted ASAP. The engine blows up if you run it at 1.98 ata.

 

That is what is says. Literally.

 

Edit: If we get 1.98 ata mod (why not?), it should be such that the engine gets killed after a short timer.

Edited September 15, 2018 by ZachariasX

[=EXPEND=Tripwire]

32 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

If we get 1.98 ata mod (why not?), it should be such that the engine gets killed after a short timer.

 

Hmmm... just like we do now? 

[Kurfurst]

 No sign of Galland demanding this or that, regardless of his meagre technical expertise.

 

Basically a meeting is held in Berlin on 20 Janaury, discussing technical issues with the DB 605D. Rechlin’s chief is p/o at Daimler Benz for clearing a 1,98ata rating for the operational units which have set the engines to it without his approval first, and also because several engines failed in the test stand (and if you actually read prior DB internal memos, you will learn that the actual problem was that one subcontractor sent oversized pistons, and workers did not tightened valves enough, hence about 60 engines failed in the factory in December during test run due to faulty assembly/parts, then were re/assembled correctly and ran without problems - apparantly some of the faulty engines were also delivered in the meantime for outside testing).  DB puts up a defense that it had ample and positive testing basis for the clearance of the rating. Basically a production SNAFU happened at the factory and everyone’s big ego was hurt. It is at this meeting 20 January that they decide that 1,98 is recalled until further operational testing (by II/JG 11), 1,8 ata will be used with delayed ignition by the troops (and is also tested by II/JG 11), because the quality variation with B-4 fuel that this latter setup uses. Actually, the impression from all the docs is the problem is with the 1,8 ata setup and B-4, rather than the 1,98ata setup.

 

In any way, indeed the highlighted parts clearly show that both the 1,98ata rating and the 1,8ata rating was cleared at the same time, and was operationally used before this meeting took place, i.e. 20 January 1945. Actually says the following literally (and I am trying to keep the English a very close to the German):

 

Sondernotleistungsstufe mit 1,98 ata seitens der Firm direkt an Herrn Galland gegeben worden sei

Specialemergencypower with 1,98ata on behalf of the Firm have been given to Mr. Galland

 

dass seitens des Technischen Aussendienstes diese Leistungen direkt der Truppen angeboten werden und the die Motoren umgestellt werden

that on behalf of the Technical Office these Ratings have been given/offered to the Troops and the Engines have been set to [it]

 

dass die 1,98ata in der entsprechende TAGL gleichzeitig mit des Freigabe des Ladedruckes 1,8 ata ausgegangen ist

that the 1,98 ata [rating] has went out in the same TAGL at the same time with the Clearance of the Rating 1,8ata

 

Now, the question is when this TAGL and the 1,8 ata and 1,98 ata ratings went out - luckily I have both, since both the 1,8 ata and the 1,98 ata rating was cleared in the DB 605DB/DC Motorenkarte, 1st December 1944, and the DB TAGL issued a few days later, on 5 December 1945, which shows how to set up the 605D engine for 1,8 or 1,98 respectively.

 

Long story short, they cleared and operationally used the 1,98 ata rating since early December 1944 until some time in late January 1945, then its use in February 1945 was limited to II/JG 11, and they cleared it again in March 1945 and used it primarly with JG 27 and JG 53 in the West (and perhaps others).

[ZachariasX]

17 minutes ago, =EXPEND=Tripwire said:

 

Hmmm... just like we do now? 

Currently on MW50 it is not that short of a timer. It is useful.

 

Personally, I do not oppose high MAP ratings, even if they were the exception rather than the rule. I think people should be able to choose what is fun for them. This is a game. It is supposed to be fun for all parties involved.

 

The only condition that would make me oppose uncommon ratings is if they somehow tilt the FM of a plane such that realigning everything would become serious work. 

 

20 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

No sign of Galland demanding this or that, regardless of his meagre technical expertise.

The first paragraph you marked says they submitted that rating directly to Galland, obviously bypassing standards. They must have done that for a reason.

 

23 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Basically a production SNAFU happened at the factory and everyone’s big ego was hurt.

Yep. But that is what mass production is all about. It may well be that by April things worked better and @SCG_Riksen may maybe have his >0 total of planes having that rating. Maybe.

 

The second paragraph that you marked actually says that the report vehemently frowns upon the fact that

30 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

that on behalf of the Technical Office these Ratings have been given/offered to the Troops and the Engines have been set to [it]

actually happened. It happened by mistake. If you take just the second part of the sentence, you are inverting the meaning.

 

Although some might dispute the fact that any 1.98 ata rating on paper ever went out to the troops, it really seems that it did and given the realities, all parties involved knew it happened as a mistake at that time. Troops had the SNAFU engines too. Getting a screwdriver and setting that engine to 1.98 ata and lining up next to the „Super“ pump will guarantee that the pilot, if at all, will come home by foot.

[unreasonable]

1 hour ago, ZachariasX said:

Every monday morning they convene, checking whether they could fiendishly bias your bias. Every time they were not successful, someone got shot. 

 

I take WW2 video games made by Russian companies with the same large grain of salt as I take WW2 movies made by American studios.  In the one regime you can get into trouble with the law for showing a swastika, in the other for being, or having ever being, a member of the communist party.  

 

Clearly only British games and films are devoid of bias.    

[HagarTheHorrible]

16 minutes ago, unreasonable said:

 

Clearly only British games and films are devoid of bias.    

 

Unless, that is, they are modern films in which case the British are the personification of evil and rampant discrimination  who, without the help of the plucky Johnny Foreigner would have succumbed in a cloud of bigoted ineptitude.

[unreasonable]

38 minutes ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

 

Unless, that is, they are modern films in which case the British are the personification of evil and rampant discrimination  who, without the help of the plucky Johnny Foreigner would have succumbed in a cloud of bigoted ineptitude.

 

Yes of course, all those evil posh white men, stealing the ideas of penicillin, gravity and the empirical method from the Wakandans in the intervals between whipping their dusky native mistresses.  Now that penicillin, gravity and the empirical method have been invented, I have little to do in between sessions of dusky native mistress flagellation: fortunately she enjoys it, I can tell from the way she says "Nooo, please stop!".  

 

Fortunately shooting down Huns in my Spitfire fills some of the time, even if their markings look different from those I remember.   I expect the K-4 will burn just as well as the other rotters.

Edited September 15, 2018 by unreasonable

[DD_Arthur]

4 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

 This thread reminds me of UBI Zoo. 

 

Just needs more charts and some allegations of holocaust denial and we're there!

[csThor]

You guys are taking all of this way too seriously. ?

[6./ZG26_Loke]

I'm looking forward to the K-4, not so much to fly it, as I sucks as a fighterpilot.

But to paint one. A K-4 landed May 4th. '45 not far from where I live today and that one is the one I'm gonna repaint. ?

[MiloMorai]

3 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Long story short, they cleared and operationally used the 1,98 ata rating since early December 1944 until some time in late January 1945, then its use in February 1945 was limited to II/JG 11, and they cleared it again in March 1945 and used it primarly with JG 27 and JG 53 in the West (and perhaps others).

 

The K-4s only arrived at II./JG11 on Dec 23 1944 (a 75% staffel). By month end that was down to 11 K-4s (a 69% staffel). Two were lost on Jan 1 1945, WNrs 331510 and 330510 (a 56% staffel). How many more were lost before II./JG11 was transferred to the Eastern Front on Jan 23 1945 is not known.

 

Between March 20 1945 and April 1 1945, III. and IV./JG53 were nowhere near the border of the Bodenplatte map. The JG53 units can be ignored. I. and III./JG27 were only based near  but outside the eastern border of the Bodenplatte map for a few days and then based far away from the eastern border of the map. (see map posted earlier)

 

Then there is the lack of C3 avgas and methanol. The production of methanol had dropped substantially and what was produced was required in the production of explosives. C3 avgas was required by BMW801 powered Fw190s.

 

I like historical scenarios and the 1.98ata K-4 would be gaming the war game/sim, especially if there is no 11lb Tempests and 18/21lb Spitfires XIVs. I might reconsider my stance if and when the 2 British fighters are added and if the map is expanded.

Edited September 15, 2018 by MiloMorai

[Kurfurst]

1 hour ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

Just needs more charts and some allegations of holocaust denial and we're there!

 

I am searching for the Chart to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything by Jg14_Josf(?), but no luck so far.   

[JtD]

The manuscript probably got lost when he got shot down, after a V-engined aircraft turned inside his radial engined aircraft, which he thought was physically impossible.

[CountZero]

"The K-4 Isn't Special"

 

if Red side have Spitfire XIV, without that its gona be special and best thing in game for long time not mather what ata it can do ?

[Kurfurst]

I hope there will be an option to fill the booster tank with Allied Tears instead of MW 50. ? 

[Talon_]

3 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

I hope there will be an option to fill the booster tank with Allied Tears instead of MW 50. ? 

 

I always approach these discussions from the aspect of historicity, but then I see posts like this and I despair. 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Talon_

[Kurfurst]

Wait, wait, let me just fetch a bucket.

[Talon_]

8 hours ago, Legioneod said:

P-47D-28 and the D-30 have the same exact power rating so there is no reason to have the D-30 apat from the dive flaps (which aren't really needed)

 

The P-47D-30 also has a few upgrades as standard such as the K-14 lead-computing gunsight and the dorsal fin, along with a new cockpit layout and integrated mirror. Regardless it was not the "first" version of the plane during our campaign so we won't be getting it...

7 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

Would you kindly translate the following German text for us. Which you have seen, many times.

 

 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

 

And this report is for the DM engine we should see?

[CountZero]

12 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

I hope there will be an option to fill the booster tank with Allied Tears instead of MW 50. ? 

 

Loot of them in that big jucy 47s ? if only 30mm were as effective as rusky 23 o what a joy that would be 

[Legioneod]

10 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

The P-47D-30 also has a few upgrades as standard such as the K-14 lead-computing gunsight and the dorsal fin, along with a new cockpit layout and integrated mirror. Regardless it was not the "first" version of the plane during our campaign so we won't be getting it...

D-28 had all those upgrades as well. Also, the K-14 and dorsal fin were not standard from the factory on the D-30, they didn't become standard until later.

The one and only thing that the D-30 has that we wont get is the dive flaps, everything else the D-28 received in the field.

[ZachariasX]

3 hours ago, 77.CountZero said:

"The K-4 Isn't Special"

 

if Red side have Spitfire XIV, without that its gona be special and best thing in game for long time not mather what ata it can do ?

"Red" side will have the Tempest. Significantly more powerful and faster than the K4, better armed. High up the K4 has even more competition.

[Legioneod]

36 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

"Red" side will have the Tempest. Significantly more powerful and faster than the K4, better armed. High up the K4 has even more competition.

Many people don't seem to realize this. The germans are going to be squeezed in Bodenplatte. They may not be outclassed, but they will have nowhere to go, and they won't be overwhelmingly superior at any given altitude.

 

The allies have two excellent high alt fighters and the Tempest is just a beast down low, we also have the spitfire, which is a good all round fighter despite it's speed.

[CountZero]

38 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

"Red" side will have the Tempest. Significantly more powerful and faster than the K4, better armed. High up the K4 has even more competition.

 

lol yes good point, i totaly forgot how well get Tempest V, yes its on par with Ks at low mid alts, and thouse 4x hispanos will blow anything in one pass, when is that beast scheduled to come i wonder

[LukeFF]

12 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

LukeFF, they have shown a small clipped bit of an document with a few lines and number that proves absolutely nothing. Nothing at all. A real document states conditions, setup etc. I¨ve read the Russian test report on captured Bf109G-2 for example, quite a different than this "proof" of yours. That was just a snip where a speed was shown and out of context without the rest of the document. I wonder what magic data they have got what Oleg did not have, for example? And yes, I refuse to believe them as they are affiliated to RMHS thru 1C. Do some digging on Russian news, state funding, RMHS and 1C  

 

Great - so what you're telling me is you think guys like @=FB=VikS and @Gavrick are liars when they say they aren't using data from specially prepared planes. 

 

Oh, and spare me the stupid winks and the cheesy virtual salute you feel the need to start every post with. 

[PatrickAWlson]

So there is some evidence of higher boost.  There is not overwhelming evidence of widespread use of higher boost.  Can we put a fork in this one?

 

Just my $.02 - I always prefer to have the most common version first and foremost.  Everything else is a bonus.  Problem here is both sides want their best version while arguing, in some cases, for the worst version of the other guys plane.  If we do not get the most common type then that IMHO is grounds for complaint.  If we do, quit bitching and just fly the damned things.

[SCG_Syn]

Agreed with PatrickAWIson, Compromise, you get 150 octane, we get 1.98 (only last for 10 minutes unlike your 150 oct) Everyone is happy. Or we could just keep the spitfire limited to what it is now, keep allied planes at their 95-100 oct. and Germans get the 1.8 ata k4. Either way, it shouldn't be Germans get 1.98 ata and allies don't get 150 oct or vice versa, not only is it unbalanced (I know balance means little in the sim community but I still appreciate it where it can be placed with historical backing and reasoning) Theirs no need to call out that the k4 with 1.98 was a fantasy plane, you might aswell dismiss the 262 as it was extremely rare as well.

Actually its not compromise all, I plan on flying the spit and p38 quite a bit so I'll be happier with the 150 oct as well! 

Edited September 15, 2018 by SCG_Sinerox

[Talon_]

Regarding the commonality of 150 octane, we have confirmation that it was used by the Spitfires flying from B.56, B.88, B.90, B.78. This leaves only squadrons from B.77, B.85 and B.60 in doubt - however these airfields are only a few km from the confirmed airfields, which makes it pretty much confirmed that virtually all of 2TAF's Spitfires were flying on 150 octane petrol in the first weeks of 1945.

 

[MiloMorai]

The common fuel for Allied planes was 100/130 fuel and had been for quite awhile Sinerox.

 

1.8ata K-4s were very common but 1.98ata K-4s were as scarce at chicken teeth and the units 'cleared' for that boost were based outside the borders of the Bodenplatte map for a VERY short time and then based a long way from the border of the Bodenplatte map. The JG JG53 units were based a long way from the map border. 

 

In early April 1945, I. and III./JG27 had 16 and 15 K-4s serviceable, that is 2 staffels. III. and IV./Jg53 had 5 and 30 a/c serviceable (again 2 staffels) .

[PikAss]

Hello guys,

 

i just wanted to remind you, that my Favorit air toy is the bestestestest.

 

Change my mind.

[PatrickAWlson]

6 minutes ago, [3./J88]PikAss said:

Hello guys,

 

i just wanted to remind you, that my Favorit air toy is the bestestestest.

 

Change my mind.

 

 See page 30 of "Important Airplane Stuff"  that clearly indicates that it is my Favorit air toy that is the bestestestest while your Favorit is stinky and smelly looks ugly too.

 

Convinced?  Shall we argue about it for 3 pages?

[sevenless]

14 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

Would you kindly translate the following German text for us. Which you have seen, many times.

 

 

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

 

Thanks! Didn´t know that document. Yes it says Messerschmitt company informed Galland directly (without going over Rechlin) about free usage of 1,98ata and it also says that this increase was offered directly to the operational units and that the necessary changes to the engines are already ongoing.

 

Document is from end of jan 45, so based on this document I would assume the field units were using 1,98ata in 1945. My only question would be: Does anyone know the percentage of machines which were converted? You can identify those by the C3 triangle right behind the canopy. It took them 6 weeks to convert JG54s early 190-D9s to 1900PS in the field so I would also assume a gradual conversion process here.

[ZachariasX]

1 minute ago, sevenless said:

Does anyone know the percentage of machines which were converted?

0%. The engine blows if you „convert“. It does so most assuredly as they found out, stated in the document. That‘s why the guys at DB and the Technische Amt were fuming for someone actually sending such a rating to the field units.

 

Not before production of the engines could be improved would the engine substain that rating.

[sevenless]

5 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

0%. The engine blows if you „convert“. It does so most assuredly as they found out, stated in the document. That‘s why the guys at DB and the Technische Amt were fuming for someone actually sending such a rating to the field units.

 

Not before production of the engines could be improved would the engine substain that rating.

 

Erm,..the document says "zunächst negativ" which means the first runs were negative and all runs after that were positive. Further the document says that DB prooves that enough evidence for usage (gute Erprobungslage) was existing and also showed the proof (und legt die gefahrenen Läufe ...vor). So according to Daimler-Benz there had been more than enough arguments to release 1,98ata in parallel with 1,8ata to the troops. (based on this document)

 

Do we have any documentation about the blown up engines and the problems stemming from increase to 1,98ata? Not a rethorical question, genuine interest. Are there any documents which reverted or forbade the usage of 1,98ata?

 

[453=Thornley]

 

4 hours ago, SCG_Sinerox said:

Agreed with PatrickAWIson, Compromise, you get 150 octane, we get 1.98 (only last for 10 minutes unlike your 150 oct) Everyone is happy. Or we could just keep the spitfire limited to what it is now, keep allied planes at their 95-100 oct. and Germans get the 1.8 ata k4. Either way, it shouldn't be Germans get 1.98 ata and allies don't get 150 oct or vice versa, not only is it unbalanced (I know balance means little in the sim community but I still appreciate it where it can be placed with historical backing and reasoning) 

 

I don't have a dog in this fight, but if you want fair Sinerox, if the Luftwaffe get their best mass-produced 1944/45 air-combat 109, the Bf109K-4 running 1.8 ata with the option for 1.98, then the RAF should get their best mass-produced 1944/45 air-combat spit, the Spitfire XIVe running 18 psi with the option for 21 psi.

 

Stating the Late 44 model of the 109 should be competing with an upgraded version of a spit released in 1941 and used almost solely for ground attack in winter of 44/45 is at best, disingenuous. 

 

Bloodsplatter

Edited September 15, 2018 by Bloodsplatter
I gramma goodly

[sevenless]

46 minutes ago, Bloodsplatter said:

...should get their best mass-produced 1944/45 air-combat spit, the Spitfire XIVe running 18 psi with the option for 21 psi.

 

I´m with you. Not so much because of the argument 1,98ata and 150 octane etc. I could care less because I only play SP (career), but because I really would LOVE to see the Mk XIV in this game, which saw a lot of action against GAF 44/45 and were, amongst other duties, one of the antidotes against marauding 262 Jabos. I hope they include that griffon spit as a collectors plane.

 

Some good reading about them here: https://ospreypublishing.com/griffon-spitfire-aces