Opposing Fleets at Midway

[Heywooood]

Let them get out of the gate...and be thankful they aren't opening with Pearl

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

Then there must be one ship of each type excluding aircraft carriers

because it would be really boring to take off from the same carrier each time especially for japanese side which won't have any island...

Attacking the same type of carrier every time is also very boring

 

 

Suggested type of ships to make :

 

AKAGI-KAGA-HIRYU-SORYU-ZUIHO carriers

1 Battleship

1 Cruiser

1 Destroyer

1 Sub

1 Cargo

= 10 IJN ships

 

 

YORKTOWN-HORNET-ENTERPRISE carriers

1 Heavy Cruiser

1 Destroyer

1 Sub

1 Torpedo Boat

1 PT Boat

= 8 USN ships

 

I added the Zuiho carrier with the 4 main carriers for the 2 following reasons :

 

1- It allows to make Invasion force for almost nothing as there should be Destroyer and Oiler/Cargo whatever. Very useful for the campaign.

2- It is a very different carrier compared to the main ones (flat top carrier and shorter) providing a lot of fun itself.

 

 

ZUIHO in 1944 with the COOLEST carrier skin EVER !!! (Different however at Midway)

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Zuiho is nice but Zuikaku/Shokaku and Junyo/Hiyo are more practical for any other 1942-1944 operations. And from island lacking carriers, Chitose/Chiyoda after conversion are even nicer than Zuiho. 

 

 

Let them get out of the gate...and be thankful they aren't opening with Pearl

Yeah, that would be quite ... onesided.

[JG5_Zesphr]

Yeah, that would be quite ... onesided.

I believe this totally historical footage says otherwise 

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

I'd be ashamed of having anything to do with that movie. Also, that 1:20 stick handling ...

 

There are much better and more accurate 3d animations you know :

 

Aircraft behave in believable way, but its different kind of approach to 2001 Hollywood. 

[StaB/Tomio_VR***]

Zuiho is nice but Zuikaku/Shokaku and Junyo/Hiyo are more practical for any other 1942-1944 operations. And from island lacking carriers, Chitose/Chiyoda after conversion are even nicer than Zuiho. 

 

 

Of course but they are not part of Midway battle.

Junyo/Hiyo were in the Aleutians too far away. Zuiho was with the invasion fleet not so far behind the carrier task force

[Gambit21]

"In the Aleutians" is why they're essential for Midway.

If they're not included then they will be simulated with other carriers.

 

The "what if" scenarios are going to be the focus of the mission builders in many cases.

Those carriers being turned around sooner, or never sent north in the first place being one of the

primary 'what if's'.

 

How events unfolded in the real battle are very specific and we know the results.

Playing with the variables is going to be the fun part.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Re-reading this post I see several requests for submarines. There were some pretty significant tactical applications for submarines during the battle. Their overall usefulness in the sim, however, would be minor. While the I-168 is important, the Japanese screening force as a whole was an absolute failure. American subs contributed in an odd way for commander McCluskey but were otherwise similarly unsuccessful. We won't be driving them and we not be seeing them for the most part either. For an initial release they can be left in port on a DEV's computer in favor of a surface asset which can be seen and engaged.

[Gambit21]

Agreed on one hand Murf.

However on the other hand we get back to the "what if" scenarios and semi-historical mission possibilities.

 

As a mission builder I can have a lot of fun with submarines considering I'll have aircraft on both sides to hunt them with, both carrier and land-based including most

likely the PBY since this likely will be included at some point given it's prevalence in the battle.

 

What I really need is a 'branching' or conditional mission progression in the scripted campaign.

If you find the sub you go to the next mission, if you don't find it the campaign "branches" and you go to another mission, taking off again perhaps as a different

flight to continue looking for it. If you don't find it that time, the following mission you're informed that it was found and attacked by another flight, etc.

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Sure, I want to see them eventually as I want to see any number of capital ships as well. I just don't think they are critical to the initial release, though they are in a few of the suggested lists above. I used to drop subs into missions for no apparent reason all the time because I love seeing type IX's steaming in and out of harbor.

Edited February 13, 2017 by II/JG17_HerrMurf

[Gambit21]

I'd say not critical for the initial release, but more useful than capital ships if they could be squeezed in.

[Dakpilot]

Were there any US submarines docked at the naval base on midway at the time of the Attack?

 

or were they all deployed/at sea at this time

 

Cheers Dakpilot

[Notclear]

The submarines were all deployed, 12 formed a defensive quarter circle West to North of Midway, the submarine base was at pearl harbor.

cl. Narwhal: SS-168 Nautilus

cl. Dolphin: SS-169 Dolphin

cl. Cachalot: SS-170 Cachalot, SS-171 Cuttlefish

cl. Tambor: SS-198 Tambor, SS-202 Trout, SS-209 Grayling, SS-210 Grenadier, SS-211 Gudgeon

cl. Gato: SS-212 Gato, SS-214 Grouper, SS-229 Flying Fish

 

For the ships directly attached to Midway:

11 motor torpedo boats from Motor Torpedo Boat Squadron 1 (possibility of 2 of them at Kure Island)

1 gazoline tanker

2 destroyers

 

1 destroyers, 2 seaplane tenders defending French Frigate Shoal, East of Midway

1 mine sweeper, 1 patrol boat and 1 fleet oiler for defending Pearl and Hermes Reef, East of Midway.

4 patrol boats at Lisianski, Gardner Pinnacles, Laysan and Necker, East of Midway

 

http://www.midway1942.com/order.shtml

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/M/i/Midway.htm

For PT action during Midway: http://www.ptboats.org/20-07-05-reports-003.html

Edited February 13, 2017 by Notclear

[Chief_Mouser]

MIDWAY LOCAL DEFENSES in the immediate area on the day of the attack. Submarines all out on patrol as Notclear says.

USMC Motor Torpedo Sqn 1       PT       8x PT Boat (Midway)
                                                     PT       2x PT Boat (Kure)

Hermes Reef                               Yacht    PY-25 Crystal
                                                     MS       AT-144 Vireo

 

Cheers.
 

Edited February 13, 2017 by 216th_Cat

[SYN_Mike77]

Well, they've done WW1 subs, so the tech is already in place!

[Gambit21]

That's what I was thinking

[hames123]

But it would be suicide to attack a fleet of ships alone, you would get shot down in less than 15 seconds. That is why on multiplayer, there has to be a popular, full-time Midway server, with incentives to listen to the air-marshals. If not, all this research will go to waste, and the game will turn into a few Anerican planes commiting suicide by flying into a wall of steel alone(similar to reality, in fact).

[=362nd_FS=Hiromachi]

Maybe, maybe not. Once in a while lone aircraft could penetrate cover or approach unnoticed, depends on clouds and situation. That kind of events occurred during battle of Coral Sea and Santa Cruz. It would be fun if AI would not react like it always knows you're there but if you could surprise enemy fleet. 

 

Well, developers can do only so much. It's up to people then how they use it.

[sinned]

I can't agree more. Instead of ships having omniscient detection of spheres, having some variables affecting detection would be really good.

 

Examle - distance of aircraft from ships, weather (rain, sunset, bright day, squall), camo of plane, presence and distance to cloud, state of ship (smokes, fire) could factor, influence the detection sphere and probability...

 

Oh.. just thinking about it makes me jizz in my pants.

[mondog]

P-40 we already have. Ki-61 is late spring 1943 aircraft, it has its place in New Guinea/Philippine Islands/Home Islands campaigns but I think adding it to Midway particularly is not exactly the best idea. Check my signature if you are more interested in seeing Ki-61 mate. Ki-43 would have to be Model I which offers pretty much nothing over a Zero and has one major flaw for me - telescopic gunsight. That thing is terrible to aim with and any recent attempts to make it somewhat realisitc in War Thunder failed, its just not easy thing to do. 

I'd love to see New Guinea as that allows for far more variety in terms of aircraft and what mission makers can do.

[Gambit21]

As a mission creator I already have a list of ideas for Midway - there's no shortage of possibilities there believe me.

[Frequent_Flyer]

Taking off and landing on a carrier when under attack will be  far more interesting and difficult than anything in the first three iterations of this sim. Need carriers.

[TheElf]

Fleet related, here is the WWII US Navy Carrier Pattern. This has never been modelled/simmed properly.  Typically these operations were conducted Zip-lip (meaning no radio transmissions), and they continue to be done this way even today during day operations.
 
Seeing as how Carrier Aviation is unique to a few nations and very different in terms of "Field Ops" I think some in game tutorials and some features that are specific to this environment are warranted.  For my money the immersion of Carrier Operations is very important to the success of this release and of the larger franchise.  My sincere hope is that sufficient resources will be allocated to making the Carrier environment feel alive and visceral.
 
Some features of note:
 
1.  Functioning elevators.
2.  A spawn system that prevents simo-spawn and blocking of aircraft on the fantail (A huge problem in IL-2: 1946)
3.  Hangar Deck
4.  Live Flight deck crews (Yellow shirts, LSOs,)
5.  Period PA announcements and deck audio
6.  Funcioning Landing Signal Officer with a feature (Either Padlock view or pop up) for seeing his signals.
 
 
I could go on and on, but I know it will just frustrate Jason because he wants the same things, but is grounded in the reality of Dev limitations
 
In any case if any of these things are outside the scope for the initial release, putting the plumbing in place so they might one day be a reality would suffice for now.

 

[SOLIDKREATE]

You know I did serve in the US Navy for almost 16 years. Pretty sure I can help with the ambient ship 1MC announcements. Maybe since I was an Air Traffic Controller...................the LSO radio transmissions. I even happen to know some real LSO's. Just saying. And I know some BM's (Boatswains Mate's).

 

 

 

 

"Flight quarters, flight quarters, all hands man your flight quarters stations."

 

"Fire, fire, fire. Fire on the flight deck deck. Fire on the starboard side of the forward elevator."

 

"Rig the barricade, rig the barricade."

 

"General quarters, general quarters. All hands man your general quarters stations. Yeoman submit muster reports to the watch."

 

"Sweepers, sweepers man your brooms. Give the ship a good clean sweep down both fore and aft. Sweep down all ladder wells decks and passageways. Now sweepers."

 

 

 

ect...

Edited February 22, 2017 by II./ZG1_SPEKTRE76

[BlitzPig_EL]

Would those be the same as were used in the 40s though?

[TheElf]

You know I did serve in the US Navy for almost 16 years. Pretty sure I can help with the ambient ship 1MC announcements. Maybe since I was an Air Traffic Controller...................the LSO radio transmissions. I even happen to know some real LSO's. Just saying. And I know some BM's (Boatswains Mate's).

 

 

 

 

"Flight quarters, flight quarters, all hands man your flight quarters stations."

 

"Fire, fire, fire. Fire on the flight deck deck. Fire on the starboard side of the forward elevator."

 

"Rig the barricade, rig the barricade."

 

"General quarters, general quarters. All hands man your general quarters stations. Yeoman submit muster reports to the watch."

 

"Sweepers, sweepers man your brooms. Give the ship a good clean sweep down both fore and aft. Sweep down all ladder wells decks and passageways. Now sweepers."

 

 

 

ect...

 

 

Hired.  Period accuracy notwithstanding...

[TheElf]

Here is an Article from Hook on how the Japanese Navy conducted Carrier Operations.

 

http://www.ussessex.org/pdfs/Japanese%20Carrier%20Operations.pdf

[SOLIDKREATE]

Would those be the same as were used in the 40s though?

 

 

 

One thing we are is 'traditional', LOL.

 

 

http://www.policeinterceptor.com/navysounds.htm

 

 

 

 

 

USS Coral Sea CV43:   CV43GQ.wav

Edited February 22, 2017 by II./ZG1_SPEKTRE76

[Haza]

You know I did serve in the US Navy for almost 16 years. Pretty sure I can help with the ambient ship 1MC announcements. Maybe since I was an Air Traffic Controller...................the LSO radio transmissions. I even happen to know some real LSO's. Just saying. And I know some BM's (Boatswains Mate's).

 

 

 

 

"Flight quarters, flight quarters, all hands man your flight quarters stations."

 

"Fire, fire, fire. Fire on the flight deck deck. Fire on the starboard side of the forward elevator."

 

"Rig the barricade, rig the barricade."

 

"General quarters, general quarters. All hands man your general quarters stations. Yeoman submit muster reports to the watch."

 

"Sweepers, sweepers man your brooms. Give the ship a good clean sweep down both fore and aft. Sweep down all ladder wells decks and passageways. Now sweepers."

 

 

 

ect...

 

"Abandon ship"

[Gambit21]

You know I did serve in the US Navy for almost 16 years. Pretty sure I can help with the ambient ship 1MC announcements. Maybe since I was an Air Traffic Controller...................the LSO radio transmissions. I even happen to know some real LSO's. Just saying. And I know some BM's (Boatswains Mate's).

 

 

 

Back in the day wasn't there a "Now hear this!" command?

[SOLIDKREATE]

Back in the day wasn't there a "Now hear this!" command?

 

 

 

Maybe in Hollywood.

[Gambit21]

Yeah always heard that in the old movies

[SYN_Bandy]

So, there is some interest, but is there any organization of the community, such as a list of assets and volunteers signing up to mod them?  Or am I missing some obscure thread, or simply perhaps thinking too far ahead given the nascent state of the title?

 

Also just IMHO, but the early PTO is so much more interesting than the superiority of the (arguably) mid-  (and most certainly) the late war.  What's the point?  More lopsided PvP servers???  Have to agree with Gambit, Solomon Islands chain and surrounding has plenty of mission opportunities.

 

Also, not sure why many are raving about the presence of the B-26.  Re-reading Midway: Incredible Victory, the B-26 played less than a marginal role, the B-17's had much more 'presence' if they didn't hit anything either... 

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

Re: the B-26. It's about history AND gameplay. The B-26 is fairly versatile and can be armed/flown in several different ways; high level bombing, low level bombing with para-bombs and most notably torpedoes. The B-17 is not planned for this game presently and cannot do the majority of the missions the B-26 can. I don't even like the -26 that much (heresy). I'm more of a B-25 aficionado but I can see why others are excited about it and why it would be included.

[Sgt_Joch]

Fleet related, here is the WWII US Navy Carrier Pattern. This has never been modelled/simmed properly.  Typically these operations were conducted Zip-lip (meaning no radio transmissions), and they continue to be done this way even today during day operations.

 

 

"Jane's F/A-18"  had a very complete modeling of carrier ops. 

 

You could contact ATC which would give you instructions of where to orbit (distance/altitude/vector) and when to begin your descent to land or you could just do an informal break turn to line up behind the CV.

 

It was very immersive and complete, I used to love doing night/bad weather landings where you relied on your instruments.

 

I don't expect that level of detail, but certainly more than what we had in IL-2:Pacific Fighters.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Sgt_Joch

[SOLIDKREATE]

"Jane's F/A-18"  had a very complete modeling of carrier ops. 

 

You could contact ATC which would give you instructions of where to orbit (distance/altitude/vector) and when to begin your descent to land or you could just do an informal break turn to line up behind the CV.

 

It was very immersive and complete, I used to love doing night/bad weather landings where you relied on your instruments.

 

I don't expect that level of detail, but certainly more than what we had in IL-2:Pacific Fighters.

 

 

You can get that level right now. Just create some ATC channels in the BoS TS3. And then a mission writer can set up a camera in a control tower. I for one would bee interested in preforming ATC duties. I have 10yrs of ATC experience both Tower and RADAR while serving in the US Navy.

[TheElf]

Re: the B-26. It's about history AND gameplay. The B-26 is fairly versatile and can be armed/flown in several different ways; high level bombing, low level bombing with para-bombs and most notably torpedoes. The B-17 is not planned for this game presently and cannot do the majority of the missions the B-26 can. I don't even like the -26 that much (heresy). I'm more of a B-25 aficionado but I can see why others are excited about it and why it would be included.

 

 

The B-26 was more active in PNG operating against Rabaul from Port Moresby.  If the Devs elect to not provide a Bonus land campaign map ala PNG or Solomons, then the B-26 has less a role in a BoMidway release.  Don't get me wrong.  I am ALL FOR a B-26.  Other than MS CFS I don't think it has been modeled, at least as well as this Sim would do.

I believe this totally historical footage says otherwise 

 

 

Worst war movie of all time.  Shameful.

[Gambit21]

Re: the B-26. It's about history AND gameplay. The B-26 is fairly versatile and can be armed/flown in several different ways; high level bombing, low level bombing with para-bombs and most notably torpedoes. The B-17 is not planned for this game presently and cannot do the majority of the missions the B-26 can. I don't even like the -26 that much (heresy). I'm more of a B-25 aficionado but I can see why others are excited about it and why it would be included.

 

Yep

If you're going to Midway, the B-26 is a tough one to leave out.

[BlitzPig_EL]

The B 26 was also used early in the New Guinea campaign too.

[6./ZG26_5tuka]

Both the B-26 and B-17 are great airplanes, but I really hope for a Catalina instead. Not only because it played an important role (even though as reconissence) but it could also help to balance the planesets due to the limitations the japanese side gets (no medium/heavy bomber).