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Jason_Williams

Opposing Fleets at Midway

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Ki-61 and TBF Avenger would be better for a mid-war installment when they were in wide use

Yes (s.a.) and No. The TBF Avenger (nearly 10000 build!) was in service in June 1942, replacing the doomed TBD Devastator (130 build) immediately. Without that single event Battle of Midway the meagre combat career and the poor performance would have made the TBD an unknown rare bird for the footnotes. But maybe I'm too much European and simply can't see an iconic status this plane in the US might have? That's the only reason I find to simulate that plane except one has the resources to build nearly any plane of WW2.

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I just can't wait to run through a hail of machine gun and flak fire and drop my fish and watch it swim up and kiss an IJN ship.

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I just can't wait to run through a hail of machine gun and flak fire and drop my fish and watch it swim up and kiss an IJN ship.

 

On the off chance that it actually works as intended?  :biggrin:

U.S. torpedoes of the day were notoriously unreliable. 

 

On the other hand when you have an IJN fish heading your way...better be scared.

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On the off chance that it actually works as intended?  :biggrin:

U.S. torpedoes of the day were notoriously unreliable. 

 

On the other hand when you have an IJN fish heading your way...better be scared.

Do they even model duds/misfires in-game?

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Do they even model duds/misfires in-game?

 

They're going to need to for those U.S. torpedoes if possible/plausible - it was a big factor, and should be a big factor in any "what if" scenarios that we'll be exploring thoroughly.

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Not so far.

 

Historically they should but from a game mechanics point of view they probably shouldn't. I can't think of any combat games that do. FPS, Flight Sim, etc. Does WoT or WoW?

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That's a good point Murf...although rarely is malfunction so synonymous with a weapons system.

I won't complain if it's not modeled, whatever the reason. I can see it taking too much time...from a "balance" standpoint though...that's just how it was.

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The TBF Avenger (nearly 10000 build!) was in service in June 1942, replacing the doomed TBD Devastator (130 build) immediately. Without that single event Battle of Midway the meagre combat career and the poor performance would have made the TBD an unknown rare bird for the footnotes. But maybe I'm too much European and simply can't see an iconic status this plane in the US might have? That's the only reason I find to simulate that plane except one has the resources to build nearly any plane of WW2.

That's not exactly true. U.S. Navy indeed brought a small detachment of six brand new TBF-1s but they werent already replacing TBD-1s (especially as they were stationed on Midway), they were replacing them immediately after Midway due to tremendous losses suffered by them, which was more of a consequence of complete absence of escorts rather than TBD itself. TBF-1s did no better during battle and in few following operations. 

Point is that TBD-1 is a unique aircraft, naturally being a part of setup. Skipping it in favor of TBF would be like skipping B5N2 or D3A1, TBF can be added as a premium for sure but shouldnt be added over the TBD. Devastator is a must in my humble opinion. 

 

 

 

I just can't wait to run through a hail of machine gun and flak fire and drop my fish and watch it swim up and kiss an IJN ship.

Firstly you would have to make it through my Zero guns Spektre :P 

 

 

That's a good point Murf...although rarely is malfunction so synonymous with a weapons system.

I won't complain if it's not modeled, whatever the reason. I can see it taking too much time...from a "balance" standpoint though...that's just how it was.

Even without faulty fuze, these torpedoes are still slower and not as effective as Japanese ones. You have to fly slower to drop them safely (like really slow) and they require lower altitude to drop. 

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That's not exactly true. U.S. Navy indeed brought a small detachment of six brand new TBF-1s but they werent already replacing TBD-1s (especially as they were stationed on Midway), they were replacing them immediately after Midway due to tremendous losses suffered by them, which was more of a consequence of complete absence of escorts rather than TBD itself. TBF-1s did no better during battle and in few following operations. 

Point is that TBD-1 is a unique aircraft, naturally being a part of setup. Skipping it in favor of TBF would be like skipping B5N2 or D3A1, TBF can be added as a premium for sure but shouldnt be added over the TBD. Devastator is a must in my humble opinion. 

 

Agreed. Personally I'm really excited to see the TBD Devastator in-game, it's an interesting aircraft and I can't wait to fly her, I just wish it would be sooner rather than later.

Edited by Legioneod

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They're going to need to for those U.S. torpedoes if possible/plausible - it was a big factor, and should be a big factor in any "what if" scenarios that we'll be exploring thoroughly.

 

 

Not so far.

 

Historically they should but from a game mechanics point of view they probably shouldn't. I can't think of any combat games that do. FPS, Flight Sim, etc. Does WoT or WoW?

 

 

I do believe that bombs in this game have a chance of malfunctioning already. Der Sheriff has a video  

here where his bomb fails to detonate. 

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They coud put all 3 islands in a map just make the Ocean smaller it would be a pain to have so much ocean in the game. Probably be disorientating as a game.

NOOOO. Don't make the ocean smaller.... Keep it all real....

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Absolutely! No fantasy maps please.

I'm with you, don't shrink the real stuff. A compressed artificial playground-map will do, but I bet in the large Pacific ToW one can find some historical places perfectly fine for tests and quick fights.

 

(other stuff moved to suggestions)

Edited by 216th_Retnek

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NOOOO. Don't make the ocean smaller.... Keep it all real....

 

It's a matter of balance I think.

There are a few reasons map size becomes an issue, although all the water mitigates one of this reasons.

There are still likely limitations with the engine - this isn't Star Citizen with it's procedural planets.

 

Aside from (likely/assumed) software limitations - You're not going to sit there and fly for 6 hours anyway - don't kid yourself ;)

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Absolutely! No fantasy maps please.

Cheers.

A minority position to say the least. :)

We'll likely need them (or one at least) alongside the other map/s for mission variety and as stand-ins for other maps not actually present in-game.

You obviously were not flying my Pacific co-ops in the old sim - you're also not a mission builder.

A map like this comes in very handy.

From your cockpit, in the sim, it ceases to matter so much.

 

We're not going to get all the maps - a generic islands map that requires minimal development time (by comparison) will serve us well for online use as well as offline

land based missions - of which there were many in the Pacific.

Edited by Gambit21
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I do believe that bombs in this game have a chance of malfunctioning already. Der Sheriff has a video  

here where his bomb fails to detonate. 

Can you pickout the minute? It's a fairly long video and I couldn't find it by skimming. I suspect it's just a (situational) bug and the server note there even says there may be erratic behavior due to overload. I've been flying this sim since day two and I have never had ordinance not explode.

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I remember you said that the ships will really shine for this release, Jason. Are you guys looking at doing anything in particular with the ships on how they operate?

 

Trying not to veer off topic too much, but since we are talking about the opposing fleets it would be interesting to see the flight deck operations serving some purposes. A couple of things come to mind such as someone occupying the position of a landing signal officer. Since pilots have signal gesture animations, I could see similar animations for an LSO. Another is the possibility of someone controlling flight deck operations such as having landed aircraft moved to the sides or down below for rearming/refueling, and raising or lowering the crash net (something especially helpful if you come in too fast but catch the wire with your arresting hook but rips off your tail and arresting hook). Alternatively, this could also be automated as planes land/takeoff.

 

This documentary, although after the Battle of Midway, gives some great visuals of US carrier operations, especially flight deck.

 

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Deck operations are one thing, the other is formation maneuvering and organization of the fleet. For that I have Japanese signal book and carrier striking formation manuals as well as few other documents that could allow for basic formation presets for mission makers or would allow to code ai to respond properly to different threats (aerial attack resulting in circular formation with carrier protected around by cruisers, battleships and destroyers, etc.) 

And there is also this kind of stuff :

 

 

C3GnEZ.png

 

 

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Guys, this post is about opposing fleets and not opposing aircrafts...

 

Considering the map will be quite easy to do, ships will take more time to be done and their selection is as important as the aircraft ones.

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This animated interactive Map gives a good pictorial view of how the Battle unfolded hour by hour, also cites units and numbers involved and tactical movements including A/C

 

http://www.historyanimated.com/Midway.html

 

worth a look to easily get a very decent overview which would otherwise take a long time in written format, actual Battle movements is very well done after codebreaking and strategic overview section is finished

 

Cheers Dakpilot

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One more thing; the librarian in me is starting to kick in, and I don't mean to clutter this thread. Not sure what you guys have collected so far in regards to resources, but there is a the Ike Skelton Combined Arms Research Library (CARL) where you can find a lot of historical documents. For instance, I found a very specific 1945 report on base facilities (with Midway being mentioned), although this report might reflect the setup of the base after the Battle of Midway it still has a lot of very specific information and placement of buildings and resources.

 

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p4013coll8/id/2622/rec/4

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It's a fascinating battle.

Change ONE little thing at any number of points, and you have an entirely different battle and outcome.

 

The good news is that for starters a single carrier type for each side will do if necessary. This will allow a few other ship types to be represented upon release. Also in the good news category is that once a "large ship physics model" is established - it's cut and paste when a new type is added. So it's mostly a matter of modeling and texturing - unlike adding new aircraft. This should allow some of us to help things along a bit eventually.

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A minority position to say the least. :)

- you're also not a mission builder.

 

 

Wrong on both counts. :P  But I only ever built historically-based missions and campaigns. Endless dogfighting over artificial landforms holds no interest for me whatsoever; in this sim or all those that preceded it. What do you expect from someone like me though? Mapbuilder for Il-2 HSFX/SEOW and provider of geographic detail for the English half of the RoF Channel map, plus thirty years as a cartographic surveyor for the Ordnance Survey (British government mapping agency for those not in the UK). It's in my blood! :biggrin:

Cheers.

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Well I'm glad to be wrong in this case :)
If you flew with us you know how much use we got out of that Guadalcanal/Florida Island map.

There were never any Guadalcanal vs Florida island battles - but we made it work!
I'm not suggesting this - this time around however. My point is - you don't know what New Georgia looks like while dogfighting above it at 1500 meters, or what flying between it and Guadalcanal looks like. Thus there's no "hey, that doesn't look like Munda Point!" Know what I mean?

This is where a generic map comes in handy as a stand-in. It can serve the purpose in a pinch and drastically expands gameplay options.

 

Nobody want's historically accurate maps more than me,  but I also understand there are limits to Jason's/the team's resources.

Edited by Gambit21

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...

You obviously were not flying my Pacific co-ops in the old sim - you're also not a mission builder ...

 

:lol: - there it is, the fresh, unspent spirit of the colonies! ;)

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We're going to have fun no matter what - that's the bottom line. It's going to be epic :)

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Here is a link to the Nafziger collection document on the forces at the battle of Midway.  Sorry I could not paste the text in but it did not format correctly.  I try to fix it and repost this weekend.

 

Sorry, got the link wrong, fixed.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32264237/Forces%20At%20Midway.pdf

Edited by Mesha44

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We're going to have fun no matter what - that's the bottom line. It's going to be epic :)

 

Very true - and each to his own, of course. We'll have to see what Jason and the gang give us.

Cheers.

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For people, who are not specialist about the question, as me, I found a site with some nice infos about the IJN.

There is a well detailed description of the activities of the Kaga and the Soryu, during the battle of Midway.

We learn more about the recon mission of the D4Y1, and about one victory of the Chitose's F1M2 on a PBY attacking the Kondo's fleet.

Others not well know treasures can be found.

http://combinedfleet.com/kaigun.htm

 

Some pictures of Akagi:

P864tN.jpg

PeJvZn.jpg

nE1Cmm.jpg

 

CxfBsq.jpg

 

Find on a french forum about world's navies: http://forummarine.forumactif.com/t7023-ijn-akagi (Primal sources unknow)

 

And for finish a nice work of ancients photo which are colorized, lot of IJN boats:

http://blog.livedoor.jp/irootoko_jr

Edited by Notclear
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Can you pickout the minute? It's a fairly long video and I couldn't find it by skimming. I suspect it's just a (situational) bug and the server note there even says there may be erratic behavior due to overload. I've been flying this sim since day two and I have never had ordinance not explode.

2 minute mark

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I know it's more about fleets, but sneaking in a DC-3/C-47 early on will pay dividends for any subsequent expansion later on.

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The number will likely be small and I hope to have a way for 3rd parties to add to it. This is new territory for us and I will once again have a small budget.

 

Jason

 

Well Ships should be the one thing community can help with, many great ships in other simulators built by modders. Best thing they are for free, just a little mention in credits and all free to use

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I found a site with some nice infos about the IJN.

 

This is the homepage of Anthony Tully and Jon Parshall, the authors of the amazing 'Shattered Sword'. Recommended!  :)

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We're going to have fun no matter what - that's the bottom line. It's going to be epic :)

Gambit21, we'll have fun. I'm with you, ones needs a very special breed to fly for hours over virtual seas, looking for virtual contacts maybe showing up. To attract the gamers, to casual sim-pilots, the hungry hunters, there have to be some maps respecting those needs. It might be the vast majority ... Anyhow, if there are "condensed maps", those hopefully are build like the real thing, just deleting some water. It should be easy for the devs to add amounts of "blue nothing" for a second version presenting the historic distances.

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The number will likely be small and I hope to have a way for 3rd parties to add to it. This is new territory for us and I will once again have a small budget.

 

Jason

 

Jason,

 

I realise that this has been asked in the past and I think you mentioned that the company can't be seen to be needing hand-outs etc.  However, is there anyway that you guys can be given funding externally (such as crowd funding or whatever it is called) or something, as I for one would be willing to contribute something to at least keep you guys going and allowing you to go above and beyond what you might be able to do (As you all appear to be currently doing)?

 

In addition, are you able to inform us how the JU52 sales or the BOK sales are going as there is no point in people asking for more from you, if things are not actually selling as you would want them to.  I appreciate that the party line might be "Sales are OK, but we need to sell more", but when we have guys asking for Dakota C-47 etc, they need to realise that the time and effort you guys put into such things, may not be getting the returns that make them worthwhile.

 

Anyway, I for one appreciate all the updates and the openness demonstrated by you and the guys.

 

 

Phil (Haza)

 

PS  Please feel free to move this post or ask me to delete if not appropriate.

PPs.  I would gladly pay for a C-47.

Edited by Haza
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