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Opposing Fleets at Midway

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It seems that your sights are on the battle of Midway. I have nothing against it as it is a perfect air sea battle. Nevertheless I would have preferred the Guadalcanal campaign. It has a lot of advantages.

It stretches over a year, with gradual introduction of various airplane types from wildcat to B17. You have land, air and sea battles. You can profit from the land battle experience you have on BOS and BOM for that.

It is a scenario that I find very rich, with the troops landing on barges (quiet on Guadalcanal Island but violent on Tulagi just on the other side of ironbottom sound), and that can allow for multiple additions. The region also stretches along the Solomon Islands, with various local battles as the islands where conquered one by one.

Battle of Midway is a one shot scenario. The Battle of Guadalcanal is a full campaign that can be declined in multiple scenarios that are chronologically organized, and that could keep IL2-Pacific Fighters on the front scene for many many years..

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Not so far.

Historically they should but from a game mechanics point of view they probably shouldn't. I can't think of any combat games that do. FPS, Flight Sim, etc. Does WoT or WoW?

Silent Hunter does. I've had a few hits in WoW that didn't detonate as well. Well, if the planes use the same technology as the subs - then they should be terrible. I use SH4 and the torps used by the US are absolutely horrid. I honestly don't know how they sunk anything at all. US torps didn't get any more effective until later in the war. I never played U-boats in SH4 but did of course in SH3 and their torpedoes seemed to be much more reliable.

 

It's frustrating - but realistic too! So I vote for realism.

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I'd like to see first a good damage model of those ships, with various systems reacting differently depending on the hull damage. Then it would be nice to have faulty mechanisms and stuff like that. I remember that in some instances, torpedo fuze could be so sensitive that torpedo would go off in ships wake. 

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Also please model the fire/hanger deck explosions that did damage after the initial hits

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It seems that your sights are on the battle of Midway. I have nothing against it as it is a perfect air sea battle. Nevertheless I would have preferred the Guadalcanal campaign. It has a lot of advantages.

It stretches over a year, with gradual introduction of various airplane types from wildcat to B17. You have land, air and sea battles. You can profit from the land battle experience you have on BOS and BOM for that.

It is a scenario that I find very rich, with the troops landing on barges (quiet on Guadalcanal Island but violent on Tulagi just on the other side of ironbottom sound), and that can allow for multiple additions. The region also stretches along the Solomon Islands, with various local battles as the islands where conquered one by one.

Battle of Midway is a one shot scenario. The Battle of Guadalcanal is a full campaign that can be declined in multiple scenarios that are chronologically organized, and that could keep IL2-Pacific Fighters on the front scene for many many years..

 

Midway will be good - lots of options... Lots of "what if" scenarios to explore.

With a supplementary map or two - were going to get a lot of bang for the buck out of Midway.

This was the right decision to get us into the Pacific.

 

After Midway then for reasons outlined in my signature yes Guadalcanal is the best way to go imho.

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Midway will be good - lots of options... Lots of "what if" scenarios to explore.

With a supplementary map or two - were going to get a lot of bang for the buck out of Midway.

This was the right decision to get us into the Pacific.

 

After Midway then for reasons outlined in my signature yes Guadalcanal is the best way to go imho.

 

 

Guadalcanal could very possibly be the gateway to the F4U-1 'Birdcage'. I have the flight manual for this bird too.

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Guadalcanal could very possibly be the gateway to the F4U-1 'Birdcage'. I have the flight manual for this bird too.Ywp

Yep.

For the price of a map and a few extra aircraft we're up and running.

Black Sheep!

 

With Midway, I'm looking forward to turning those carriers around that headed to The Aleutians and adding them to the mix...letting the Japanese find the American carriers earlier...committing more assets

earlier in the battle...making some different decisions about surface ships... It's going to be fun creating these scenarios. 

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Midway will be good - lots of options... Lots of "what if" scenarios to explore.

With a supplementary map or two - were going to get a lot of bang for the buck out of Midway.

This was the right decision to get us into the Pacific.

 

After Midway then for reasons outlined in my signature yes Guadalcanal is the best way to go imho.

 

I do agree that Midway can be seen as an entry step into the Pacific Theater. After all the big job of modelling air carriers, and various battleships, submarines, cruisers, destroyers, oilers,  from both sides, as well as the carrier landing physics, a nice rough sea simulation with the ships motions, damage model, realistic waves and ship wakes, you name it have to be done anyway. Once this is done it can be easily used in the Guadalcanal campaign. I can only dream of a return flight to my carrier with a nice sunset glittering on the pacific through faraway dispersed clouds.

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Sorry for going off a rail a bit.

Anyone recommends Rising Sun, Falling Skies by Cox?

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Anyone recommends Rising Sun, Falling Skies by Cox?

Nope, I had no opportunity yet. But reading authors biography I think we are very much alike so based on that I'm going to recommend it. Does that suffice ? :)

 

What a glorious sight!

Let me borrow that ...

 

RgiyKq.png

Edited by =LD=Hiromachi
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Not so far.

Historically they should but from a game mechanics point of view they probably shouldn't. I can't think of any combat games that do. FPS, Flight Sim, etc. Does WoT or WoW?

Third Wire sims do, the reliability/accuracy problems of early AAMs are modeled.

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Interesting about the U.S. not having any of the BBs at Midway (didn't know that actually), but it makes sense as the remaining old line ships were being raised/repaired after Pearl Harbor, and ships like the North Carolina class were just entering the fleet.

 

I hope for the Pacific content at least a couple types of each ship class can be made on each side.

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Even without the losses of Pearl Harbour, the US Navy at that time didn't have any BB's that would be able to even remotely operate with carrier groups, with none of the old ones being faster than ~21kn. The Japanese ships were on average 5 knots faster and could both tactically and strategically much better operate with carrier groups.

 

Outside of carrier groups, it would have been hard for US BB's to serve any real purpose at Midway. The IJN could use their in support of their landings after air superiority had been established. The US, however, could just sacrifce theirs in case of Japanese air superiority, or not need them in case of US air superiority, because the Japanese would most likely withdraw. Imho, while none were available, they weren't needed in the first place.

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28.jpg

 

Sorry for the google translet:

 

"This photo was taken while the Kido Butaï  left Sterling Bay (Celebes Island) on March 26, 1942 to begin its raid in the Indian Ocean. Aircraft carriers are not in "boxes" because the squadron is sailing in transit and air operations are not scheduled in the short term.
One recognizes in the middle of 5 p-a the 4 fast battleships of the class Kongo the only ones of Nippon Kaïgun able to follow the fast aircraft carriers thanks to their Vmax of 30 knots.
 
The Kaga does not participate in the raid, on March 15 he was sent back to Japan after he tapped a rock in the Palau on 9 February.
 
The socks visible on the islet of the Akagi under stuffed with Kapok or any other vegetable fiber are not hammocks, often the Japanese will also use looped loops as splinters on their footbridges."
Edited by Pollux

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That is a cool picture.  Haven't seen that one before.

 

Something some may not know is that not only was the Kongo (like in the picture above) originally built as a Battlecruiser (starting) in 1911, but was built in England for the Imperial Japanese Navy.

Edited by vipe155

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We Finns are really waiting the Brewster F2A-3 and different subtypes of it, mostly our Finnish Air Force Model 239 (F2A-1),too... ;) It should be great if developers are modelling the US Marine Corps' Brewster to the Battle of Midway! Maybe they can later create some other Brewster's too and before it we can skin the F2A-3 to famous Finnish variant. My squadron mate WMaker has a lot of technical and flight data from all the Brewster models such as these ones:

Brewsters.jpg

Edited by LLv32_Kanttori
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We Finns are really waiting the Brewster F2A-3 and different subtypes of it, mostly our Finnish Air Force Model 239 (F2A-1),too... ;) It should be great if developers are modelling the US Marine Corps' Brewster to the Battle of Midway! Maybe they can later create some other Brewster's too and before it we can skin the F2A-3 to famous Finnish variant.

Maybe there could be a selectable modification for "Make this the B-239" :)

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Seeing as how this thread is about the opposing fleets, I'll make my first entry in this arena about how to begin setting expectations for the community, while hopefully getting as much necessary content as we can to make the battle representative.

 

To my mind the vast Russian steppe scenery from previous releases will be replaced chiefly by open water populated by small floating steel towns, a few medium sized floating cities, and an amazing model of Midway Island.  So for the map makers, assuming no other terrain is intended to be provided (Solomons, New Guinea), and until told otherwise, much of the scenery and objectives will come down to the ships.

 

Prioritizing Jasons list a bit, I would surmise that the Carrier Striking Force (Kido Butai) would be the most important of the many IJN TFs present as Midway is after all about the carriers.  So looking at that TF, we have 4 similar, but different CVs which in a perfect world would all be modelled in their quirky unique way, plus another 6 unique classes for a best case total of 10.  Thats a lot of ships for just one side of the conflict no less.  If we must accept compromise, at least as far as the CVs, I would suggest the following 2 COAs

 

1.  Combine the Sisters into two ship classes rather than 4.  After all this is an Air Combat sim and its about planes and the view from the air.  Evenly uniquely modeled CVs will be indistinguishable from 5k' and above.  Not a popular tack I'm sure for those purists out there.  Me either.

 

2.  The Program manager in me thinks if the tech and the talent are available, build the CVs in a modular approach.  Same hull, Same general flight deck arrangement, similar appearance to the Upper works and structural framing.  If the modeller approaches the task as a single ship with some differences rather than 2 entirely different models much could be done to make them unique with a little extra work.

 

So a max of 10 in the best case scenario, minimum of 6 given maximum constraints on the Devs.  Anyway, just my thoughts...more to come.

 

Akagi                     Akagi                     Aicraft Carrier                     Carrier Division 1                             Carrier Force              Combine into one model

Kaga                      Kaga                     Aicraft Carrier                     Carrier Division 1                             Carrier Force              OR model modular components

 

Hiryu                     Soryu                     Aicraft Carrier                     Carrier Division 2                             Carrier Force              Combine into one model

Soryu                    Soryu                     Aicraft Carrier                     Carrier Division 2                             Carrier Force               OR model modular components

 

Haruna                  Kongo                    Fast Battleship                   Battleship Division 3 Section 2         Carrier Force                2 present, only BB-class present

 

Tone                     Tone                       Heavy Cruiser                    Cruiser Division 8                             Carrier Force              2 present, Only Heavy CA-class present 

 

Nagara                 Nagara                   Light Cruiser                       Destroyer Squadron 10                     Carrier Force              1 present, could be skipped 

 

Nowaki                 Kagero                   Destroyer                            Destroyer Division 4                         Carrier Force              9 present, numerically most important 

   

Kazagumo           Yugumo                   Destroyer                              Destroyer Division 10                       Carrier Force             3 present, optional second DD-class 

 

Oiler #1                Unknown                Oiler                                    Supply Group                                   Carrier Force            Lower Priority as Oilers tend to stay in the rear, and aren't really a main target at Midway. 

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I've applied the same logic to the US ship classes with one exception.  Fortunately to represent the CV classes present at Midway we only need the Yorktown class.  I've made a concession here that would be contingent on any extra terrain content (New Guinea, Solomons) that would call for a Lexington class CV.  If the answer is no, only Midway will be modelled then the Lexington would be a waste of dev time.

 

The condensed list below takes the total number of ship classes from 27 to 7 if there is a desire for a Lexington.  No submarines, PTs, etc., only ship classes that would run with the Carrier TFs, and thus be necessary for game play. 

 

Best case 7 ships, worst case you could go down to 4 if you eliminate the CV Lexington, DD Farragut, and AO Cimarron.

 

The main difference between the IJN and US navy is that the CV TFs for the USN operated near each other, but in separate formations.  The IJN maneuvered all 4 CVs in the same formation.

 

Yorktown               Yorktown                Aircraft Carrier                    Task Group 17.5                                Carrier Group

 

Lexington              Lexington               Aircraft Carrier                    Coral Sea                                          Carrier Group            Modeled only if extra content allows for a Coral Sea spin off

 

Astoria                   New Orleans         Heavy Cruiser                     Task Group 17.2                                Cruiser Group            4 present, most numerically significant 

 

Morris                    Sims                      Destroyer                            Screen Task Group 17.4                 Destroyer Group           5 present

 

Atlanta                     Atlanta                Light Cruiser                        Task Group 16.2                                Cruiser Group        An important singular AAA Cruiser

 

Alywin                      Farragut              Destroyer                             Screen Task Group 16.4                 Destroyer Group        optional second DD Class

 

Cimarron                  Cimarron             Oiler                                     Oiler Group                                        Oiler Group         3 present, not necessary for CVTF modelling

 

 

A grand total of 72 vessels for the U.S. at Midway with several small craft on the extreme fringe of the battle area. Notice no battleships at all on the U.S. side. The U.S. Navy also sent additional ships to the Aleutians to counter the IJN in the extreme north of the Pacific.

 

Note: This represents 27 distinct classes of ships, boats and submarines.

Edited by TheElf

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It seems that your sights are on the battle of Midway. I have nothing against it as it is a perfect air sea battle. Nevertheless I would have preferred the Guadalcanal campaign. It has a lot of advantages.

It stretches over a year, with gradual introduction of various airplane types from wildcat to B17. You have land, air and sea battles. You can profit from the land battle experience you have on BOS and BOM for that.

It is a scenario that I find very rich, with the troops landing on barges (quiet on Guadalcanal Island but violent on Tulagi just on the other side of ironbottom sound), and that can allow for multiple additions. The region also stretches along the Solomon Islands, with various local battles as the islands where conquered one by one.

Battle of Midway is a one shot scenario. The Battle of Guadalcanal is a full campaign that can be declined in multiple scenarios that are chronologically organized, and that could keep IL2-Pacific Fighters on the front scene for many many years..

 

Guys,

 

Please no more posts like this. I don't have time and it gums up my threads. I'll say it again. We need to build lots of tech to make a plausible Pacific battle and fleets of ships. Time, resources and money I would otherwise spend on making maps I can spend making ships viable. Without good ships and ocean we have no Pacific. Anyways, I'm not going to speak about this again. Let's stay on topic.

 

Jason

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Geez this a pretty impressive load out for the TBD-1. I never thought this plane was so rare, only 126 made.

 

  • Bombs:
    • 1 × Mark XIII torpedo or
    • 1 × 1,000 lb (454 kg) bomb or
    • 2 × 500 lb (227 kg) bombs or
    • 12 × 100 lb (45 kg) bombs

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Seeing as how this thread is about the opposing fleets, I'll make my first entry in this arena about how to begin setting expectations for the community, while hopefully getting as much necessary content as we can to make the battle representative.

 

To my mind the vast Russian steppe scenery from previous releases will be replaced chiefly by open water populated by small floating steel towns, a few medium sized floating cities, and an amazing model of Midway Island.  So for the map makers, assuming no other terrain is intended to be provided (Solomons, New Guinea), and until told otherwise, much of the scenery and objectives will come down to the ships.

 

Prioritizing Jasons list a bit, I would surmise that the Carrier Striking Force (Kido Butai) would be the most important of the many IJN TFs present as Midway is after all about the carriers.  So looking at that TF, we have 4 similar, but different CVs which in a perfect world would all be modelled in their quirky unique way, plus another 6 unique classes for a best case total of 10.  Thats a lot of ships for just one side of the conflict no less.  If we must accept compromise, at least as far as the CVs, I would suggest the following 2 COAs

 

1.  Combine the Sisters into two ship classes rather than 4.  After all this is an Air Combat sim and its about planes and the view from the air.  Evenly uniquely modeled CVs will be indistinguishable from 5k' and above.  Not a popular tack I'm sure for those purists out there.  Me either.

 

2.  The Program manager in me thinks if the tech and the talent are available, build the CVs in a modular approach.  Same hull, Same general flight deck arrangement, similar appearance to the Upper works and structural framing.  If the modeller approaches the task as a single ship with some differences rather than 2 entirely different models much could be done to make them unique with a little extra work.

 

So a max of 10 in the best case scenario, minimum of 6 given maximum constraints on the Devs.  Anyway, just my thoughts...more to come.

 

Akagi                     Akagi                     Aicraft Carrier                     Carrier Division 1                             Carrier Force              Combine into one model

Kaga                      Kaga                     Aicraft Carrier                     Carrier Division 1                             Carrier Force              OR model modular components

 

Hiryu                     Soryu                     Aicraft Carrier                     Carrier Division 2                             Carrier Force              Combine into one model

Soryu                    Soryu                     Aicraft Carrier                     Carrier Division 2                             Carrier Force               OR model modular components

 

Haruna                  Kongo                    Fast Battleship                   Battleship Division 3 Section 2         Carrier Force                2 present, only BB-class present

 

Tone                     Tone                       Heavy Cruiser                    Cruiser Division 8                             Carrier Force              2 present, Only Heavy CA-class present 

 

Nagara                 Nagara                   Light Cruiser                       Destroyer Squadron 10                     Carrier Force              1 present, could be skipped 

 

Nowaki                 Kagero                   Destroyer                            Destroyer Division 4                         Carrier Force              9 present, numerically most important 

   

Kazagumo           Yugumo                   Destroyer                              Destroyer Division 10                       Carrier Force             3 present, optional second DD-class 

 

Oiler #1                Unknown                Oiler                                    Supply Group                                   Carrier Force            Lower Priority as Oilers tend to stay in the rear, and aren't really a main target at Midway. 

 

 

I've applied the same logic to the US ship classes with one exception.  Fortunately to represent the CV classes present at Midway we only need the Yorktown class.  I've made a concession here that would be contingent on any extra terrain content (New Guinea, Solomons) that would call for a Lexington class CV.  If the answer is no, only Midway will be modelled then the Lexington would be a waste of dev time.

 

The condensed list below takes the total number of ship classes from 27 to 7 if there is a desire for a Lexington.  No submarines, PTs, etc., only ship classes that would run with the Carrier TFs, and thus be necessary for game play. 

 

Best case 7 ships, worst case you could go down to 4 if you eliminate the CV Lexington, DD Farragut, and AO Cimarron.

 

The main difference between the IJN and US navy is that the CV TFs for the USN operated near each other, but in separate formations.  The IJN maneuvered all 4 CVs in the same formation.

 

Yorktown               Yorktown                Aircraft Carrier                    Task Group 17.5                                Carrier Group

 

Lexington              Lexington               Aircraft Carrier                    Coral Sea                                          Carrier Group            Modeled only if extra content allows for a Coral Sea spin off

 

Astoria                   New Orleans         Heavy Cruiser                     Task Group 17.2                                Cruiser Group            4 present, most numerically significant 

 

Morris                    Sims                      Destroyer                            Screen Task Group 17.4                 Destroyer Group           5 present

 

Atlanta                     Atlanta                Light Cruiser                        Task Group 16.2                                Cruiser Group        An important singular AAA Cruiser

 

Alywin                      Farragut              Destroyer                             Screen Task Group 16.4                 Destroyer Group        optional second DD Class

 

Cimarron                  Cimarron             Oiler                                     Oiler Group                                        Oiler Group         3 present, not necessary for CVTF modelling

 

 

A grand total of 72 vessels for the U.S. at Midway with several small craft on the extreme fringe of the battle area. Notice no battleships at all on the U.S. side. The U.S. Navy also sent additional ships to the Aleutians to counter the IJN in the extreme north of the Pacific.

 

Note: This represents 27 distinct classes of ships, boats and submarines.

I'd love to see this kind of diversity..............eventually.

 

But in hopes of getting to market on time, which the DEV's have been pretty good about, I think just five or six types will do in the short term. We can get away with a single carrier, cruiser, and destroyer per side. A battleship type for the Japanese. A generic oiler and or cargo/support ship for both sides. Just to start - other types can follow in patches/updates. Adding a second carrier type for both sides (Lexington please) is preferable if time allows.

 

To get a general order of battle, that is all we really need in the short term. I want what everyone wants in terms of variety and fidelity of surface types. I just don't want a complete order of battle while failing to deliver on all of the other great qualities we have come to love in this series - graphics, FM, DM, physics. If a larger selection of surface types is possible in the appointed time frame I am all in.

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Yep

Han commented a while back that they can't get away with the lower polygon count of the old IL2 ships - they're going to take quite a bit

more work now.

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The one thing on my super duper deeper wish list is an actual LSO with paddles to guide me in and reacts to my altitude and wing level. That would be the bomb!

 

Everyone else on the decks can be lightly animated like the AAA gun crews are now.

 

You know, if there's time.......................

 

Edit: This is my only request that can be truly characterized as feature creep but it would still be awesome.

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf
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One carrier per side will be very depressing.

I know this is a flight sim where emphasis would be on planes.

But! Having 1 carrier is like having one exact looking city across the map.

 

Akagi, kaga, soryu and hiryu are all distinctively different classes.

That would be equivalent to a naval sim with only one plane set per side..... a wildcat looking fighter plane but representing hellcat, corsair, mustang etc.

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Not really. The others will definitely follow, possibly in fairly short order. I can't imagine ships, with the fidelity we are used to won't be a humongous undertaking and equally time consuming.

 

I'm only saying for an initial release next December.

 

Edit: Also, only having to concentrate on a single CV initially will allow the DEV's to work out the inevitable bugs for the type before committing an entire Kido Butai and American contingent. There will be bugs. They will get fixed.

 

Edit 2: Fixed it CuriousG

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf

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I'm only saying for an initial release in December.

 

You mean next December, right? PTO is still two years away.

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One carrier per side will be very depressing.

I know this is a flight sim where emphasis would be on planes.

But! Having 1 carrier is like having one exact looking city across the map.

 

Akagi, kaga, soryu and hiryu are all distinctively different classes.

That would be equivalent to a naval sim with only one plane set per side..... a wildcat looking fighter plane but representing hellcat, corsair, mustang etc.

 

We'll make what we can afford to make. If everyone who bought 1946 bought BOS we could make them all very easily. 

 

Jason

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@ Jason, it`s up to you guys, even if you bring us just one carrier per side, tbh, who cares, that`s a new expanding theater. 

 

It will be a blast to have naval stuff and carrier ops in your engine, there was never such a nice sim like yours before! You have created a very good attention to detail and provided us with a great flight experience!

 

Thanks 

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Yeah, as long as experience is there, it should be a success. It's all about getting the feeling of that so different war that counts. Working dive bombing, torpedoes, ships reacting in believable way to different kind of threats, proper scouting and radar implementation ... those are things that will define the experience. You don't need dozens of types of ships, some basic setup that will be continuously expanded is more than fine. 

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We'll make what we can afford to make. If everyone who bought 1946 bought BOS we could make them all very easily. 

 

Jason

 

Hmmm. Maybe not? For every person who followed the series from the beginning there were a load who picked it up cheap in the bargain bins later on.

 

Anyway, to the point:

This is what I'd hope to see as a minimum ship set so that many scenarios can be played out, not just the basic one.

 

IJN - Striking Force & Midway Invasion Force. Going to need both if it's going to be anything more than a dogfight scenario.

 

Akagi

Kaga

Hiryu

Soryu

Generic Battleship - Kongo class

Generic Heavy Cruiser - Tone class

Generic Destroyer - Kagero class

Oiler

Transport

 

Task Force 17 and Midway Defense Force

 

Yorktown/ Enterprise. One model, two paint jobs?

Hornet

Generic Heavy Cruiser - New Orleans class

Generic Destroyer - Farragut or Sims class

Oiler

PT Boat - got to have something around Midway and these would be useful.

 

 

Just my thoughts. Cheers.

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They seem to over deliver to my expectations more often than not. I suspect somewhere between my list and yours is what we will end up with. They will continue to fill it in over time. 

Edited by II/JG17_HerrMurf

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C-47 and Brewster F2A are very interesting a/c to me as they are historic options for both Midway as well as on Eastern Front....2 birds one stone so to speak.

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The upcoming Pacific scenario is rife with "2 birds one stone" opportunities. Even 3 birds ;) We'll just have wait and see what they can afford out of the gate.

Edited by Gambit21

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We'll just have wait and see what they can afford out of the gate.

We will just have to buy more to make them afford more. I cant wait for Midway preorder. More than one is mandatory here :) 

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I'll be doing that as well I think.

Right now my slush fund us still recovering from Christmas.

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