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Tactical Air War

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2 hours ago, ACG_RED_Shadepiece said:

Additionally, the inclusion of some wearhouse type target further back from the front would be a nice change of target that might also help 5he LW some. 


Have you ever flown TAW?

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The funny thing here is somehow the moved from a tactical issue to a developer issue. I bought my 1st IL-2 copy back in 1999 and the same conversations we had back on the SImHq forums are starting to rear their ugly head.

 

I think 777 has do a great job with modeling aircraft to their historic strengths.

 

Which leads back to my argument - The problem is if I am flying my aircraft within its best operation (German fighter) which is >= 3K and if my RED friends did they same, they would be at =< 3K so it seems we have a problem. In order to effectively cover my bomber buddies, I have to fly in an envelope that isn't conducive to my aircraft best attributes. 

 

This will not change unless the TAW changes. Either way - I am fine with DiD or whatever as this is all make believe anyway.

 

 

 

 

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On 5/27/2018 at 10:57 PM, JG5_Schuck said:

 

If you died 40+ times your'e doing something wrong irrespective of what you flew or for which side.....

 

Elitist much?

 

The best K/D ration are on the German side, yet for some reason axis get pasted on plane/pilot loss like a clockwork. 

 

I don't mind 40 death if the kill ratio is i double that, because you are still causing more damage than you take. Getting in and getting job done, over that tank column, is what it means to fight for your Motherland. This double true when you don't fly in regular squad, but with people you find online with you. 

 

It is easy to get in your 109 with your buddies and circle jerk at LEO without accomplishing shit, and dive on some poor smoking dude getting back from a fight. 

Its other matter to get in the thick of combat in a plane you positively know cannot run if things get hairy, and the wing man you have is flying together for the first time. 

Most VVS actually fly pretty historically accurate if you ask me. It is the Axis who are milking this hartmann myth to the extreme. 

1 hour ago, JG7_X_Man said:

 

 

Which leads back to my argument - The problem is if I am flying my aircraft within its best operation (German fighter) which is >= 3K and if my RED friends did they same, they would be at =< 3K so it seems we have a problem. In order to effectively cover my bomber buddies, I have to fly in an envelope that isn't conducive to my aircraft best attributes. 

 

This will not change unless the TAW changes. Either way - I am fine with DiD or whatever as this is all make believe anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

So instead of having somewhat fair fight at the altitudes where your attackers are, you insist on hartmanning in the stratosphere? Even at the cost of your fellow attackers lives? 

 

I mean, don't get me wrong, you still outperform most VVS planes no matter what altitude, but your margin of error just shrinks to the point where you cant just panic dive away from enemy.

 

This speaks volumes about the mindset of your average 109 jockey...

 

The times we had a fight at low altitude where 4 VVS fighters were engaged  by 6 Axis, only to shoot down 1-2 and lose one or two... and then, the remaining 4 axis fighters just fly away in to sunset from the remaining beaten up VVS fighters... (like i already wrote, the worst i saw was 14 vs 5 above blue tanks, and after moderate losses the axis just fucked off) 

 

Instead of pushing it trough and clearing the target, axis will fuck off, and the attackers that are behind, arrive at target that is still defended and has most of its AAA intact. I pity the axis attackers, when ever i fly IL-2, no matter who is online, i can usually count on the fighters to strafe the AAA and loiter close by, covering my rear... and not use me as a bait. 

 

 

Edited by CptSiddy

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The reason why the BLUE side looses is because the Pe-2 can take out an entire supply column in a little more than 2 or 3 sorties.

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5 minutes ago, JG7_X_Man said:

The reason why the BLUE side looses is because the Pe-2 can take out an entire supply column in a little more than 2 or 3 sorties.

 

And Ju-88 cant? 

 

I mean, I already stated that A-20 is a nuclear bomb, and can clean columns just like that but peska is just your average dive bomber that cant get home on a single engine.  

Edited by CptSiddy

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To start understanding why Axis is losing you should stop simplifying a complex matter.

 

There are many factors that lead to Axis losing. So far i fail to see a simple solution to this issue. It would also greatly help if people would leave their faction bias at home...

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On 5/30/2018 at 1:00 AM, Operation_Ivy said:

To start understanding why Axis is losing you should stop simplifying a complex matter.

 

There are many factors that lead to Axis losing. So far i fail to see a simple solution to this issue. It would also greatly help if people would leave their faction bias at home...

 

 

[edited]

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15 minutes ago, CptSiddy said:

 

And Ju-88 cant? 

 

I mean, I already stated that A-20 is a nuclear bomb, and can clean columns just like that but peska is just your average dive bomber that cant get home on a single engine.  

 

Can't isn't the operative word - I think. The average # of ground kills by aircraft will really answer the question.

 

I would love to see TAW's and Wings of Liberty's

 

GK/L - G.Kills per Aircraft Lost
GK/S - G.Kills per Sortie

 

I am focusing on Ground Attack because this ultimately determines winning or loosing in TAW.  

Edited by JG7_X_Man

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1 minute ago, JG7_X_Man said:

 

Can't isn't the operative word - I think. The average # of ground kills by aircraft will really answer the question.

 

So if it can, but wont, the problem does not lie in the Axis hardware.... why even bring up "muh peshka"? 

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9 minutes ago, CptSiddy said:

I think that Bismark is part of your little incestuous clique. And his humble take on the matter is 99% mirroring my own (and this is how i know he is a smart man, he agrees with me 😄 ).  Or is he now too a pariah, because he went against a group think? 

 

Its hard to figure out what opinions are kosher anymore....

 

I guess i unintentionally hit a deeper grudge there? Maybe if you leave the insults out of it, people would take you a little more serious.

 

And to clarify: You weren't banned from the server for a "wrong" opinion or anything like that. You are very well aware of the reason why you eventually got banned. 

Edited by Operation_Ivy

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48 minutes ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

I guess i unintentionally hit a deeper grudge there? Maybe if you leave the insults out of it, people would take you a little more serious.

517432257_cantseethat.thumb.jpg.f79b94527f3fa5546e3c8b0e6fdce8ec.jpg

 

 

It is only an insult if you take it as one, other vice it is called argument you cannot refute. 

 

"Bah, earth going around the sun! What is this hogwash!! THIS IS DIRECT INSULT TO OUR HOLY CHURCH AND POPE"

Edited by CptSiddy

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2 hours ago, StG77_Kondor said:


Have you ever flown TAW?

Yes... :P

 

I mean some additional strategic value type targets that would be good targets gor level bombers. I still wholeheartedly believe that the AAA is much too severe in the server. It's definitely tje reason why I like to fly transport mission instead of ground attack when I'm not in a fighter.

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27 minutes ago, Operation_Ivy said:

 

 

And to clarify: You weren't banned from the server for a "wrong" opinion or anything like that. You are very well aware of the reason why you eventually got banned. 

 

 

Argue the points, not the preferences of your knitting club clique, m8ty. 

 

But since you opened that can of worms, want me to tell everyone just how how ethically upstanding people you associate yourself with? 

It wont add anything to the actual discussion but since you went there (without even knowing really what happened)...

Edited by CptSiddy
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So a JU-88 has all of the ordinance of a PE-2, more if we are being exact, but is unable to make the run and survive. Fine. Why are they failing to come home? The natural answer is that they are being killed. Killed by what? Baring gremlins, it is either AA fire or intercepting fighters. If only there was some kind of tool the Germans had that was fast and nimble enough to evade AA fire and kill the guns on the ground. And I suppose if something were able to bring down the fighters, or at the vary least keep them occupied while the bombers are working, that wouldn't be an issue either. But what could that tool be...

 

Even a cursory glance at the German equipment shows that a 109 is, or can be made, suitable to both these tasks. Throw in the 202 and the 190, both capable of these tasks, and you have more options. The 110 can be an exceptional AA suppression plane and in a pinch can counter hostile fighters. Even the Duck can take out AA guns. So it seems the issue isn't a lack of capable equipment. What else is there?

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22 minutes ago, Disarray said:

So a JU-88 has all of the ordinance of a PE-2, more if we are being exact, but is unable to make the run and survive. Fine. Why are they failing to come home? The natural answer is that they are being killed. Killed by what? Baring gremlins, it is either AA fire or intercepting fighters. If only there was some kind of tool the Germans had that was fast and nimble enough to evade AA fire and kill the guns on the ground. And I suppose if something were able to bring down the fighters, or at the vary least keep them occupied while the bombers are working, that wouldn't be an issue either. But what could that tool be...

 

Even a cursory glance at the German equipment shows that a 109 is, or can be made, suitable to both these tasks. Throw in the 202 and the 190, both capable of these tasks, and you have more options. The 110 can be an exceptional AA suppression plane and in a pinch can counter hostile fighters. Even the Duck can take out AA guns. So it seems the issue isn't a lack of capable equipment. What else is there?

 

 

There is a leak in German equipment that hampers their operation. Its in the head gasket located between the chair and flight stick. 

 

No patch seems to be able to fix that :/ 

 

 

I mean, i get it, covering attackers from 2km is not glorious work. It is dangerous, you need to babysit attackers without scoring any kills. You must stay at position where you are primed to cover attackers and leave yourself open for someone to bounce on you from higher up. And you cannot climb there because then the attackers are going to get pasted while you dive down. 

 

I totally get it, covering sucks. Covering in a mount given by gods, the 109 sucks doubly because then you are only slightly superior to your Asiatic counterparts. It makes average Hans queezy and unsure of himself. But think of the attackers and children! 

 

Also, on the matter of gremlins... This is real issue and needs to be taken in to account; Axis need to up their Anti Gremlin spraying of the fields if they want to win more. 

 

 

 

Edited by CptSiddy
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You guys can keep up the condescending talk, it wont change the fact the axis will lose most of the times. I just wonder how much more it will take until people realise that and stop playing all together, maybe all axis flyiers have their head stuck in their butt and dont really care about the outcome of the campaign.... who knows, but one thing for sure: if one side keeps winning all the time sure it will drive people away at some point.... I mean, whats the point of flying if you know you gonna lose ?

Edited by Willy__
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25 minutes ago, Willy__ said:

You guys can keep up the condescending talk, it wont change the fact the axis will lose most of the times. I just wonder how much more it will take until people realise that and stop playing all together, maybe all axis flyiers have their head stuck in their butt and dont really care about the outcome of the campaign.... who knows, but one thing for sure: if one side keeps winning all the time sure it will drive people away at some point.... I mean, whats the point of flying if you know you gonna lose ?

 

At least someone has been listening! This is why Paul Lowengin's DCG utility creation for IL-2 FB was a God Send! I took to flying off line with veteran AI and life was grand.

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This thread is basicly a couple of posts that try to address some issues with the campaign using logic and statistics and then a couple of dudes who only fly one side arguing for a page or two.

 

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Sounds about right! Some are willing to accept the status quo and some are will to address change.

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Because suggesting it is a tactical issue is just silly! I finally see it. I should have never dained to question the Blue fighters....

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1 minute ago, Amerikanski said:

god i hope this weekend

I'm afraid, I'll have to disappoint you😈
 

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unacceptable, if im not playing TAW in 12 hours your dead to me

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On 5/29/2018 at 5:45 PM, Disarray said:

So a JU-88 has all of the ordinance of a PE-2, more if we are being exact, but is unable to make the run and survive. Fine. Why are they failing to come home? The natural answer is that they are being killed. Killed by what?

 

 

Easy meat. They love to come in 1 by 1 all alone. If you camp a target you are going to smash single bombers all shift.

On 5/29/2018 at 5:50 PM, CptSiddy said:

I mean, i get it, covering attackers from 2km is not glorious work. It is dangerous, you need to babysit attackers without scoring any kills.

 

 

 

Covering attackers is the easiest way to get kills. Two stacks one at 2k the other 3.5k. It can be done with just two fighters as well.

 

I LOVE escort duty. Fixated pilots are the best targets. Plus once the bomber drops the enemy team gets a warning. Walk your bomber out, get altitude and come back for a CAP. Now you get to smash new fighters who are looking down for bombers. Escort duty for attackers is really fun and a great way to get some in the bag in my opinion.

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9 hours ago, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

 

 

I LOVE escort duty. Fixated pilots are the best targets. Plus once the bomber drops the enemy team gets a warning. Walk your bomber out, get altitude and come back for a CAP. Now you get to smash new fighters who are looking down for bombers. Escort duty for attackers is really fun and a great way to get some in the bag in my opinion.

 

Shhhh, don't tell them that! 

 

But on more serious note, when the skilled bunch of fighters go in, you are more than likely not get there alive from covering. Covering is risky because you have to keep yourself at the level where you can cover in time, and getting your attackers home is more important than getting kills. Happy attackers means busy attackers, and that means enemy tonks get killed. 

And if you run in to enemy, odds are they are above you and might take on your first (at this point attackers needs to go home ASAP).  It is far more riskier than just hunting people on your terms. 

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I agree escort duty is a challenge. A really worth it challenge too.

 

I was really close to making top five fighters. I pulled an 8 hour day and killed myself.   :(

Was flying in a new aircraft that I had not flown much, P39 and really tired. I should have logged off as I got bounced like it was day 1 flight sim.

 

I would have been the only fighter with ground kills as well. It is possible to ground pound AND dogfight. You just need to pick battles carefully.

 

21 AK streak and 41 ground kills much of that in a P40. Great campaign. I hope to do better next one.

 

 

When is the new TAW? I miss it!!

Edited by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

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14 hours ago, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

 

21 AK streak and 41 ground kills much of that in a P40. Great campaign. I hope to do better next one.

 

 

 

19 kill streak here, then i took il2 because motherland needed attackers and got shot down by aaa. 

 

I find the streaking (pun intended) to be the biggest obstacle for people with above average skills to do more for the team that they do now....

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4 hours ago, CptSiddy said:

 

19 kill streak here, then i took il2 because motherland needed attackers and got shot down by aaa. 

 

I find the streaking (pun intended) to be the biggest obstacle for people with above average skills to do more for the team that they do now....

You are right that's why we should be able to have a fighter pilot and an attacker pilot, but I understand it's hard to implement and to limit abuse from it. I did two jabo missions when I was on 30+killstreak and  the adrenaline rush was quite something. After a really close call I stopped doing it not to lose my pilot. 

So yes it makes sense that the more experienced pilots stack up streaks with more ease and rapidity and thus stop doing as much for the team in terms of ground attack and low altitude attacker cover.

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1 hour ago, Disarray said:

Hide the stats until after?

I don't think that would really work, people are still aware that they are on a big grind after several sorties and plane shot down. What I really don't get is this server allows you to make a pilot on both sides, but not two pilots on the same side, one fighter and one bomber/attacker. I mean flying on both sides is really not what a TAW campaign is about, at least for me. Why not make that change?

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12 minutes ago, Operation_Ivy said:

Its not a good idea either way. It would simply encourage more suicide runs and wouldn't help really to begin with.

I don't beleive so, you would want a grind on your bomber pilot as well. I really don't see how its a worse idea than having a pilot on both sides. 

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2 hours ago, Operation_Ivy said:

Its not a good idea either way. It would simply encourage more suicide runs and wouldn't help really to begin with.

 

What discourage suicide runs is mainly the rather quick depletion of available hardware. 

 

For average joe, who pisses his +1 plane with Jabo run at enemy AF at the end of the round, stats mean nothing compared the time you need to spend getting new hardware.

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15 hours ago, CptSiddy said:

 

19 kill streak here, then i took il2 because motherland needed attackers and got shot down by aaa. 

 

I find the streaking (pun intended) to be the biggest obstacle for people with above average skills to do more for the team that they do now....

 

 

Silly man, P40 or Peshka if you want to drop bombs. Il2's are a death trap, in my opinion. I die whenever I fly one.

I'm not so sure on your assesment though. Some people just like to take more risk. I can't help myself. I always get into the low and stupid fight. I just like it a lot.

 

5 hours ago, CptSiddy said:

 

What discourage suicide runs is mainly the rather quick depletion of available hardware. 

 

For average joe, who pisses his +1 plane with Jabo run at enemy AF at the end of the round, stats mean nothing compared the time you need to spend getting new hardware.

 

 

I quite like the Coconut system. Just discovered it. The supply and ground war is just ace. I think they have done a great job.

Edited by 7./JG26_Smokejumper

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On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 6:24 PM, 7./JG26_Smokejumper said:

 

 

Silly man, P40 or Peshka if you want to drop bombs. Il2's are a death trap, in my opinion.

 

 

Heh, no.

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