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Tactical Air War


=LG=Kathon
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It's interesting all these attempts to set a realistic scenario for us to play in. Yet we arent' realistic pilots. We are all probably better trained* / informed than the men we are emulating. So of course the results won't be like real history. So... is it better to play to 'real life' rules and accept that the outcome will be unrealistic? Or would it be better to adjust the game to be as realistic as practical to maintain an experience that doesn't lead to frustration?

 

Tricky balances indeed. The desire to disincentiveize kamikaze attacks vs stifling taking risks and doing daring raids. Chute killing purely for pragmatic purposes of tactics (denial of operations) vs being an douche.  

 

I remember having similar discussions in model railroading forums, realism vs enjoyment. It takes all kinds and that can be both an boon and a curse.

 

* In that we get to keep being resurrected and re-doing our missions even long after we would have been poppy food in real life.

Edited by Tailwheelbrownbear
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I remember having similar discussions in model railroading forums, realism vs enjoyment. It takes all kinds and that can be both an boon and a curse.

The crux of all sim gaming.

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216th_Lucas_From_Hell

This is your weekly reminder that we're all adults playing a videogame squeezing plastic triggers to fire virtual bullets into 3D models of planes and pilots.

 

No need to treat each other as if we're a war, because we're not - be nice :)

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curiousGamblerr

This is your weekly reminder that we're all adults playing a videogame squeezing plastic triggers to fire virtual bullets into 3D models of planes and pilots.

 

No need to treat each other as if we're a war, because we're not - be nice :)

I'll have you know, my trigger is metal Lucas!

 

And Riksen, I don't what it is that lets you and the Mr X's of the world do what you do, but frankly I don't think I'm interested.

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216th_Lucas_From_Hell

I'll have you know, my trigger is metal Lucas!

In which case disregard what I said, the yellow wall is going to war!

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curiousGamblerr

In which case disregard what I said, the yellow wall is going to war!

Lol against Tottenham...

 

No it's a good reminder man, I'll shut up now, at least for a couple hours...

 

Edit: Turned out to be minutes...

Edited by 19//curiousGamblerr
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I'll have you know, my trigger is metal Lucas!

 

And Riksen, I don't what it is that lets you and the Mr X's of the world do what you do, but frankly I don't think I'm interested.

 

Oh yeah because you can't shoot down other airplanes in the game, it must be something abnormal with the ones who can. Typical ...

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JG4_Karl_Gratz

It seems to be useless to bomb depots as right now russian side has both at 100 percent damage and they attack with two tank colums, whereas axis has both depots and attack with only one column!

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reasons for more deaths/AC lost:

 

  • soviets fire solid shot AP and have largely done away with rifle calibers
  • LW attracts more rookies unless talked into VVS and has alot of fat in the way of dedicated LW only pilots
  • outdated slow and comparitively fragile attackers, Ju88 also is nowhere near the divebomber the Pe-2 is
  • clearing throat
  • german AA sucks ballz ... since its limited to single barreled 20mm and 88s. Soviet 72k and 61k shoot at 2-3km range and one of their shells hitting rarely be shrugged off.
  • https://imgur.com/XSOGcUm (thats a german airfield btw)
Edited by =FEW=N3croo
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Good Morning! In TAW how do you get a base and how can you supply the bases that are disables?

 

You may also resupply friendly airfield by transport airplanes by about 3-4% each. Transport planes are: Ju 52/3m with cargo, also Pe-2, He-111, Ju-88 with 100% fuel and no bombs and rockets. Ju-52 with cargo resupply airfield by 6%-8%. You must takeoff from an airfield damaged less then 40% and land on an airfield damaged more than 0%. The friendly airfield will not be supplied by transport airplane in two cases:

·   This airfield was damage more than 85% in current mission

·   This airfield was captured by enemy in current mission

 

Cities with airfield has round icon with the airplane inside on the web map and cities without airfield has squared icon with blocks inside. Airfields with a little dot on the map are “border airfields”. They are better protected by AA, faster repairing. You can takeoff by transport planes from it even the damage is more than 40%

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Good Morning! In TAW how do you get a base and how can you supply the bases that are disables?

 

You can only capture if your tanks get in, so protect your tanks, kill enemy defenses, kill enemy tanks/artillery sites.

 

Transports, you fly from one base to a damaged base (that isn't closed) with a plane marked "Transport" so, for example, Germans you could take an He-111, but it has to have 100% fuel and no bombs.  Land on airfield, don't break your plane, you resupply the base.

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Hmm, I looked for that post in this thread and the TAW problems thread and couldn't find it, but I was certain I read it somewhere.  I did find this post for an older iteration of TAW, when it was actually 20%/50% for Russian/German chances of being captured in enemy territory:  https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21029-tactical-air-war/page-27?do=findComment&comment=383974 .

 

Maybe someone from =LG= can clarify what the current percentages are.

Thanks for the link!  I would be interested if this number is still in effect or if it has changed since then. 

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I think a simple change that would work for either side would be that tank attacks should never launch from a destroyed/closed airfield.  Obviously if armor is already rolling, that's one thing, it should continue to attack.

 

Conversely, maybe closed fields shouldn't be able to muster the same defenses as an open field? 

 

This would put the "tactical" back into TAW, imho.

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Thanks for the link!  I would be interested if this number is still in effect or if it has changed since then. 

 

It's 20% and 35% chance to be captured for Allies and Axis respectively.

 

 

 

I returned from holiday and didn't read all posts in details yet. If you have problem with account please PM me.

 

If other problems, bugs etc. write here: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/25544-taw-bugs-errors-and-problems/page-6 

 

It's much easier for me to read this this topic and react.

Edited by =LG=Kathon
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It seems to be useless to bomb depots as right now russian side has both at 100 percent damage and they attack with two tank colums, whereas axis has both depots and attack with only one column!

 

Bombing depots is definitely having an effect. When depots get bombed out the owning team's weapon selection becomes limited, large bombs for the Germans and 37 mm guns for the Soviets aren't available if the depots are destroyed for example. This has a negative effect on the ground effort. A question on this topic though: Are the Germans more affected by depots being destroyed than the Soviets? What with longer supply lines and the general devastation left in the wake of the Red Army's withdrawal one should expect the Germans' lines of supply would be more easily disrupted. Is this reflected in the campaign? 

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We need some number limiter for both sides (37 slots each). Right now it's 30 (VVS) x 44 (LW) but I cant get in to balance the red side ... Maybe something to consider for the next campaign

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JG4_Karl_Gratz

Unfortunately we have players in game that appear to treat TAW as another populated server. However we cant exclude a minority of idiots because I guess that would stiffle MP interest. If numbers are low and depending who or what teams are on the opposite side and depending on what they usually do interms of fighters or bombs depends if I bother logging in. If you annoy players enough with things like chute killing or ramming, players will no longer bother with TAW and the amazing numbers will fall away. However, I guess some players care little about what others think in a game that requies 2 sides and perhaps are more interested in their stats. I would personally like to see that when one side has fewer airfields the total numbers and types of aircraft available are significantly reduced. Currently in map 5 the Luftwaffe have worked hard to gain territory yet VVS have the same number of players and aircraft in fewer airfields and thus I believe will be able to win the map, purely because of pilot attrition. If this continually happens,my interest in subsequent maps will certainly waiver as this is the second time blues have worked well as a team with little to show for it. Just my thoughts.

 

Regards

So it seems for LW better not to fly at all as this causes pilot kills. Just wait until VVS looses theirs while trying to capture airfields Edited by I./ZG15_Karl_Modeller
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How does it work? Currently:

 

LW losses: 

Aircraft 1091 / 1300 Pilots 822 / 900 Tanks 332 / 650 Trucks 1287 / 2000 AA 495 AT 30

VVS losses:

Aircraft 878 / 1300 Pilots 572 / 900 Tanks 355 / 650 Trucks 1634 / 2000 AA 623 AT 31

Yet we have the majority of territory. Does that mean that if we hold most of the territory but lose all our pilots, we lose? 

 

and the pilot attrition rate of LW 75% (822 pilot losses/1091 a/c losses) vs VVS  65% (572 pilot losses/878 aircraft losses) is really telling now. Is that because the VVS AAA is way better than LW AAA (as mentioned above)? LW pilots are definitely flying more ground attack sorties based on VVS tank/truck/AA losses but are losing more a/c (and pilots) in the process.

 

anyway, interesting stats. If the VVS win purely on pilot numbers alone (hope not, territory should count for something), then I call BS on how TAW is scored. Couldn't really find something on this in the manual unless someone can link me to it.

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How exactly does that logic work? How can the LW win the map if all the pilots they have to win the map with are dead? I'm not military genius or anything, but I'm fairly certain the side who's combatants are all dead at the end of the day lose. Or is there some kind of special logic we have to apply for your side that I don't know about?

Edited by Disarray
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IRL you don't stay until everyone is dead, you retreat which means the enemy wins the ground you've vacated.But this is a game which is why I'm asking the question. Does that logic work for you or do you need me to break it down further?

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It's been stated in the Manual page (edited, thought it was in this thread) that aircraft or pilot attrition will mean an instant loss for the current map if a side hits the max allowed loss value(1300/900 respectively). Here it is from the manual:

 

"There are also resource limitation on each map: 1300 airplane, 900 pilots and 650 tanks. If airplane or pilots limit is reached then the current map is lost. If one side exceeds the tanks limit it's unable to produce tanks convoys (a map isn't ended then). This side can still defend. If two sides exceed the tank limit then the map ends in a draw."

 

The current losses for each side are shown right on the main page. While it may seem strange that one side can push the front line forward and lose the map, it's something both sides need to constantly be aware of. Gaining ground at a high loss rate could be considered a phyrric victory if you have no more pilots or aircraft left to field. That's what I take away from the setup - there aren't unlimited resources, so they need to be monitored and used accordingly.

 

While pilot attrition has been a major factor in winning the recent maps, some have definitely been won by capturing all of the airfields (last round of TAW).

Edited by AKA_Relent
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IRL you don't stay until everyone is dead, you retreat which means the enemy wins the ground you've vacated.But this is a game which is why I'm asking the question. Does that logic work for you or do you need me to break it down further?

 

No that logic seems all together sound, and also backing the current situation. If one side is to lose all of one of its critical resources, be they planes or pilots to fly them, then that side loses the map. I'm all together confused as to why you don't accept that as a valid conclusion though. I don't understand why it would be 'BS' as you so succinctly stated, for one team to win by killing off the other team. That rather seems to be the point of this setup - Stop the other team from winning by any means available. Killing all of them seems well and truly stopped if you ask me.

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Sorry what i meant was, it seems all the stars have to align for the LW to win a map. We're 3-1 down, and will go 4-1 down even after holding most of the territory. All the VVS have to do now is not fly and they'll win the map. The AAA will do the rest. I'm to understand what factors would favour the VVS vs the LW (AAA? being shot down behind enemy lines? ruggedness of VVS attack a/c vs LW attack a/c). 

Edited by [ASOR]Pharoah
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1PL-Husar-1Esk

Sorry what i meant was, it seems all the stars have to align for the LW to win a map. We're 3-1 down, and will go 4-1 down even after holding most of the territory. All the VVS have to do now is not fly and they'll win the map. The AAA will do the rest. I'm to understand what factors would favour the VVS vs the LW (AAA? being shot down behind enemy lines? ruggedness of VVS attack a/c vs LW attack a/c).

That won't happen - VVS will be flying to the end. This hypothetical scenario is not argument because it will never be true. Just imagine this If the whole blue team will attack objectives without enemy opposition and coordination to pull away AAA from slow bomber - they for sure can win -but this also won't happen, that why is not any argument. One side has to loose somehow , question is if one has significant disadvantage in current war?

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1PL-Husar-1Esk

Maybe destroyed airfields from level bombing mechanic do not pay dividend for Blues. Maybe because not all airfields can't be damaged/ destroyed at given mission, maybe destroyed airfield do not hinder VVS operation significantly enough. This is delicate matter of ballance , I'm Shure LG team are aware and they for sure making TAW better from one iteration to next. Of course some experiments could have unthinkable outcomes.

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JG4_Karl_Gratz

Look at the map now: 2 aktive af on russian side and still LW looses the map. I repeat: it would be better to stop flying on LW side and wait till aaa took down 900 russian pilots. They wont win the territory either.

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That would work, Modeller, except for one small hitch: Most of the Soviet pilot losses, in so far as I can tell, are not from ground fire. In my experience German planes are far more deadly than the ground based guns. If LW did as you suggest we would just start to push back. We would lose planes to AA fire but not at the rate we would lose to enemy fighter cover. With no German fighters to worry about we wouldn't have to field fighters of our own, increasing the number of ground attackers significantly. Before long the German team would be out of tanks for the map and then we would really start to take ground. In short order we would have the line pushed back to the starting point and then we would start gaining ground just as rapidly. If the Germans want to win maps they are going to have to find a plan that will actually work. Not playing isn't a working plan and whatever the plan for the last few maps doesn't seem to be a winner either.

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JG4_Karl_Gratz

No that logic seems all together sound, and also backing the current situation. If one side is to lose all of one of its critical resources, be they planes or pilots to fly them, then that side loses the map. I'm all together confused as to why you don't accept that as a valid conclusion though. I don't understand why it would be 'BS' as you so succinctly stated, for one team to win by killing off the other team. That rather seems to be the point of this setup - Stop the other team from winning by any means available. Killing all of them seems well and truly stopped if you ask me.

But the game does not take into account that by loosing towns depots and airfields you also loose ressources. So considering this fault it is in vain to conquer territory.

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One question - when plane is ditched it will be back to operations within 1-3 missions. Is it counts for a side as a plane loose? Or only completely destroyed planes counts?

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N

 

VVS have 2 airfields left and LW have 31 pilots.

 

Can it be done? :D

 

No, because with only 4 of us against 13 VVS, they can see exactly where we are spawning from and they are there before we can do anything worthwhile or climb out.  Time for me to park up and wait for map 6 as the majority of Eastern Europe is about to log on!! Almost starting to miss WOL!

 

Although I believe that having a limit of 900 pilots per side is reasonable, I would be interested to see if we could have a ratio of bomber to fighter pilots or even transport guys, therefore when one side is pressing the attack to win say in bombers, the whole team is not penalized for doing this.  I have no idea if this type of approach could or would work, but it might get more players doing different things rather than just bunching all pilots together!?  

Perhaps the ratio of fighter aircraft to bomber aircraft could be used as a starting point for pilot ratios!?

 

Regards

Edited by Haza
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Server down  :(   Maintenance r011.red - r166.red

we will do essential modernization work in our DUS2 datacenter. This will require a scheduled maintenance on 20.09.2017 between 08:00 and 16:00 CEST.

This work is affecting servers with hostnames ranging from r011.red to r166.red.

 

In this maintenance we will install a new reboot system in each server and do a visual control of the hardware. If necessary we will replace failed fans.

This causes a downtime of around 30 minutes and a reboot of each server.

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One question - when plane is ditched it will be back to operations within 1-3 missions. Is it counts for a side as a plane loose? Or only completely destroyed planes counts?

Ditched planes are counted for a side as a plane lost, disconnections as well.

 

Server restarted.

 

We are aware that pilot's limit is a problem. In previous campaigns there were situations where maps was ended during one or two days, now it's very hard to capture all the enemy cities. 

Edited by =LG=Kathon
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But the game does not take into account that by loosing towns depots and airfields you also loose ressources. So considering this fault it is in vain to conquer territory.

True, although it seems that available resources are more tied to the absolute maximums for each resource, such as tanks, vehicles, AAA,, artillery (ie. the losses/maximum allowable losses), as shown on the main page. The Manual does state that depot destruction limits certain weapons on each side (1000kg bombs, 37mm cannon), and it affects the size of armored columns.

 

On the other hand, the campaign setup also does not take into account the ever growing logistical problems the advancing side would face moving supplies and reinforcements from the rear depots to the front lines. In this campaign they are automatically spawned at or near the front line. The map the way it now with two Russian airbases is sort of like the battle of Stalingrad during the winter of '42, where T-34's were coming out of the factoriy(s) there and thrown right into battle :).

 

Just goes to show how difficult it is to come up with the perfect campaign scenario that takes all of the myriad of details into account, but =LG= have certainly come up with a fun and compelling one so far :)

Edited by AKA_Relent
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Ditched planes are counted for a side as a plane lost, disconnections as well.

 

Server restarted.

 

We are aware that pilot's limit is a problem. In previous campaigns there were situations where maps was ended during one or two days, now it's very hard to capture all the enemy cities. 

 

I just want to say that we're all so passionate about this because your labors bring us the best IL2 experience out there.  Consistently.

 

Please don't take our squawking as dissatisfaction, and please keep doing what you guys do!

 

(Now, back to squawking!)

 

Would it be difficult to break up bombers, attackers, and fighters? For scoring, as well as planes/pilots count?  Could be good, could be a disaster, who knows!

 

Scoring wise, I absolutely salute those who bomb/fight without dying, I just don't personally consider either to necessarily be the "top x", at least when it comes to the Tactical air war. 

 

It seems to reward behavior that isn't reflective of the do-or-die nature of the desperate struggle on the Eastern Front.  Off-peak bombing and high/fast picking and running are computer game luxuries.  Getting down in the briarpatch when it's 30 v 30?  The guys that come home from that are the ones that deserve a trophy.

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