Tactical Air War

[Carl_infar]

Frankly speaking I dont understand above posts about that 23mm gun related to current campaign - all 3 maps won by Allies were won when the German side run out of pilots, and not by tank kills.

Moreover as far as I remember Germans each time have at least equal number or quite often more tank kills on each map than allies.

Additionally each time they conquer more airfields and gain more ground than allies. 

 

Their bombers can do much more damage not only to depots which are being closed on regular basis (for allies with PE2 its simply close to impossible) but also to defense, arty positions and airfields. Combined with superior numbers  (at least each time when I'm flying) and better german fighters the allies just don't 

have chance to win except one small thing: the carelessness of many german side pilots - i saw so many times single planes attacking our fields and being shoot down within 10 sec of attack...

 

as for Il2 I invite any of you to attack a column single handed (or in two planes) and to see how much time  he will last...

[Inkophile]

Frankly speaking I dont understand above posts about that 23mm gun related to current campaign - all 3 maps won by Allies were won when the German side run out of pilots, and not by tank kills.

Moreover as far as I remember Germans each time have at least equal number or quite often more tank kills on each map than allies.

Additionally each time they conquer more airfields and gain more ground than allies. 

 

Their bombers can do much more damage not only to depots which are being closed on regular basis (for allies with PE2 its simply close to impossible) but also to defense, arty positions and airfields. Combined with superior numbers  (at least each time when I'm flying) and better german fighters the allies just don't 

have chance to win except one small thing: the carelessness of many german side pilots - i saw so many times single planes attacking our fields and being shoot down within 10 sec of attack...

 

as for Il2 I invite any of you to attack a column single handed (or in two planes) and to see how much time  he will last...

 

I've been silent for quite long in this thread, but it's fortunate for me that the most recent post in the thread echoes basically exactly what I came to say.

 

As far as I am concerned the VVS has one single advantage over the LW. ONE. That is the IL-2. The IL-2 both has a greater capability to knock out more tanks in a single attack run than a Stuka has, and it offers a much greater surivability rate for the pilot since the plane is built like a tank, and even if it crashes the pilot has a pretty good chance of surviving the impact.

 

That's where VVS' good things end. Their fighters are generally worse with the exception of the Yak-1B and possibly the Spitfire and La-5 (they are still inferior to the 109 F-4+ and the 190, but they offer redeeming qualities that can be exploited like good roll rate and speed or a good capability for sustained turns), and the P-40 in map #2 which made the air fight balanced, but that's a premium compared to the 109 E-7 (E-7 being a jack of all trades, while the I-16 and P-40 are specialized at different tasks. Together they form a complete opponent where the 109 doesn't automatically have the advantage).

 

Since basically every single VVS fighter is worse than the German fighters (especially as the lineups on the different maps is made) it certainly doesn't make it easy for the VVS to protect those IL-2s or to achieve any kind of air superiority. A few excellent pilots manage to use these planes well, and overconfident/bad LW-pilots throw away their otherwise vastly superior 109s in bad situations that disciplined flying could have got them out of.Their bombers are stronger - much stronger in fact.

 

The fact that LW's bombers are so strong (Two He 111 can in one single pass basically wipe out an airfield or supply depot) means that it is very easy for Germany to push the Russian airfields back. This means that the flight distance is too long for the IL-2s to be able to get to the enemy tanks before the enemy fighters get there, and thus the VVS' only advantage (the IL-2) has been invalidated.

 

That's really where it ends up: The VVS' chances to have an even fight in the sky relies on greater pilot skill than the LW has, because their planes on average are worse. Either that, or a numerical advantage of fighters, for example a 3:2 or 2:1 ratio of LaGGs vs 109 F-4s to make the fight in the skies even. Thus even if the 109s both are faster, climb better, have a much higher performance ceiling, and generally fly better, at least the numerical advantage of the VVS offers some kind of compensation.

 

Right now not even that exists though.

 

This has ultimately kind'a made it into "If you are an avarage pilot, don't even bother flying VVS fighters", and "Even if you can do transports it's useless because LW will bomb out the airfields faster than you can repair them anyway" and "fly the IL-2 and Pe-2 as much as you want. The LW air superiority will kill you either way." So now that we are past map #2 which was the first and last map with a balanced lineup, what is there to motivate non-ace players to play for the Russian side? How are average players flying VVS supposed to not lose planes at a higher rate than they can replenish them?

 

For example my fighter planes on average live something like 20 minutes, because there's nothing my Yak-1, LaGG or MiG can do against a 109 F-4 if the fight has even numbers, unless surprising the 109s and shooting them down before they see me. If my plane is spotted I automatically lose and the only chance of survival is to run to an airfield's AAA-protection or be lucky enough that another flight of VVS fighters is near enough and above the fight so that they can swoop down to the rescue. Since the 109s generally are higher, or easily can get higher since nothing the VVS has can outclimb them, they practically always have the energy advantage. Even if I dive on a 109 flying 450 kph with my LaGG flying at 650-700 kph, if I miss my pass (i.e. detected so the 109 evades) I'm dead. Even if I climb the 109 will equalize the energy states in no-time, and if I try to run he'll soon have caught up because I can't outrun him even with that speed advantage for more than maybe 20km at most.

 

Here we are again the numerical advantage: Unless having more inferior planes than the Germans have 109s there's nothing to do to win, unless - again - being an exceptionally good pilot. It is however pretty darn hard to learn to be a decent pilot when there almost exists no planes in the VVS lineup to even make the fight somewhat fair, and even that requires undisciplined LW pilots who don't know to maintain their energy.

 

Due to the existing planes however there isn't that much that can be done with the planesets aside from making the Yak-1 a CM+1 plane in map #5 and onwards. The only other thing I can think of is to restrict team sizes, and that unfortunately has to be in the favour of the VVS to at maybe a 3:2 ratio, because with even numbers the only thing that compensates right now are players like bivalov, HeY, Krupinski, chappyj and the like, and some smaller squadrons like 2SS, AKA TWB (which exists on both sides, and generally do a bigger work on the LW) and E69, and of course reckless 109-pilots that for example like to solo-attack airfields with full AAA defenses.

 

At this point if I'm even spotted by a 109 that decides to engage I can just as well bail out to save my pilot. After all it doesn't matter if I can dodge, 5, 10, or even 15 passes. Eventually my luck (and energy) runs out and I'm dead without an opportunity to turn the tables (unless the enemy plays like crap).

 

So... what would the reason be to play on TAW unless choosing Germany right now?

Edited September 17, 2017 by Inkoslav

[FTC_Riksen]

It's funny how some people say that it is really easy to be good and be untouchable when flying for the LW but when they do fly for the LW they struggle to survive for more than 10 missions, nevermind reach a high streak ...

Edited September 17, 2017 by 4./JG52_Riksen

[Inkophile]

It's funny how some people say that it is really easy to be good and be untouchable when flying for the LW but when they do fly for the LW they struggle to survive for more than 10 missions, nevermind reach a high streak ...

 

Survive for ten missions? I'm glad if I survive as more than two for VVS unless flying transport (which is pointless from a campaign perspective since unless entire VVS flies transport we can't repair faster than the LW can bomb), and I know I'm far from alone. I've dropped from almost being promoted above Major to now almost losing my 2nd Lieutenant rank since the 109 F-4 was introduced into the campaign, which should be quite indicative of how things have turned survival-wise.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Inkoslav

[[TWB]Pand]

It's funny how some people say that it is really easy to be good and be untouchable when flying for the LW but when they do fly for the LW they struggle to survive for more than 10 missions, nevermind reach a high streak ...

 

To be fair, I assume most people flying German (at least us), do more than just fly fighter sweeps and pick --- our team flies 109s with bombs, we fly 110s, we fly stukas, we fly bombers, all with the primary objective of moving the front line.  If we all only flew at 6K and specifically picked our engagements, and never engaged enemy ground targets, I'm sure we'd have much higher streaks. 

 

Our objective is to win the map, not get our name in lights on the front page.  If getting recognized on the front page is a by-product of moving the map, then so be it.

 

Salute and good hunting. 

[FTC_Riksen]

To be fair, I assume most people flying German (at least us), do more than just fly fighter sweeps and pick --- our team flies 109s with bombs, we fly 110s, we fly stukas, we fly bombers, all with the primary objective of moving the front line.  If we all only flew at 6K and specifically picked our engagements, and never engaged enemy ground targets, I'm sure we'd have much higher streaks. 

 

Our objective is to win the map, not get our name in lights on the front page.  If getting recognized on the front page is a by-product of moving the map, then so be it.

 

Salute and good hunting. 

 

I think you got my comment above wrong. I meant that some people flying VVS always like to blame the 109/190 better performance for their own mistakes when flying but I bet that if they flew LW planes they would also have a hard  time in it. No plane is easier than the other, it just requires adaptation. The pilot matters the most, not the plane. Of course if someone masters the 109, this person will be very hard to defeat. I did not mean to disrespect you or your squadron ... If that is how you felt then my sincere apologies.

Edited September 18, 2017 by 57.GIAP_Riksen

[BraveSirRobin]

I think you got my comment above wrong. I meant that some people flying VVS always like to blame the 109/190 better performance for their own mistakes when flying but I bet that if they flew LW planes they would also have a hard  time in it. No plane is easier than the other, it just requires adaptation. The pilot matters the most, not the plane. Of course if someone masters the 109, this person will be very hard to defeat. I did not mean to disrespect you or your squadron ... If that is how you felt then my sincere apologies.

 

The German side is usually stacked.  So people with a conscience don't usually get a lot of stick time in the 109 or 190.

[Pharoah]

 

So... what would the reason be to play on TAW unless choosing Germany right now?

 

Funny. And yet the VVS has won 3 maps vs 1 for the LW. We're losing the war of attrition ie. our numbers of a/c shot down are similar but we lose way more pilots than the VVS. Why? can't be chute shooting (ok thats a joke)...maybe you're right - the IL2 is built very rugged and you survive crashes more than LW planes. 

 

At the end of the day its the war on the ground that matters and we (LW) are getting our butts kicked. Just like the last campaign. So head on over and fly for the LW if you want a challenge. It seems we can only win with a large numerical advantage in pilots.

[[TWB]Pand]

I think you got my comment above wrong. I meant that some people flying VVS always like to blame the 109/190 better performance for their own mistakes when flying but I bet that if they flew LW planes they would also have a hard  time in it. No plane is easier than the other, it just requires adaptation. The pilot matters the most, not the plane. Of course if someone masters the 109, this person will be very hard to defeat. I did not mean to disrespect you or your squadron ... If that is how you felt then my sincere apologies.

 

Oh no Risken--- no disrespect taken!  Salute!   I agree with you that the pilot matters most, but the aircraft for ground pounding in a close second.   

 

Unfortunately most of the LW team would never hop in an attacker or bomber, would NEVER attach a bomb to their precious 109, or ever risk getting killed attacking a ground target as they would lose their streak.   If all the LW Hartmanns focused on escorting their attackers/bombers, dove in to distract and take out AAA at targets so their bombers could get through, the LW would be far more effective at actually winning a map.  

[[TWB]Pand]

Funny. And yet the VVS has won 3 maps vs 1 for the LW. We're losing the war of attrition ie. our numbers of a/c shot down are similar but we lose way more pilots than the VVS. Why? can't be chute shooting (ok thats a joke)...maybe you're right - the IL2 is built very rugged and you survive crashes more than LW planes. 

 

At the end of the day its the war on the ground that matters and we (LW) are getting our butts kicked. Just like the last campaign. So head on over and fly for the LW if you want a challenge. It seems we can only win with a large numerical advantage in pilots.

 

Is the capture percentage rule still in effect?   That also would also help to explain the attrition.

 

At least in earlier TAWs I remember:

• If a German pilot was shot down over enemy lines he had a VERY slim chance of getting a successful bailout, with the high percentage of being captured (which counts as a pilot loss/death).
• If a Russian pilot was shot down over enemy lines he has a much higher percentage chance of not getting captured, thus the pilot survives.

If you look at the aircraft loss on each side they are often *pretty close*; however, for the similar amount of aircraft lost, the Germans are more often captured after bailing out, resulting in the high pilot attrition numbers.

 

Not complaining or saying it isn't accurate--- just how those numbers decide who wins the map more often than not.   For the LW to win the attrition war, they need to make sure they chute down the Russian pilots and make sure those pilots don't survive--- far more than driving the ground war based off of the design of the current game mechanics. 

[Inkophile]

Funny. And yet the VVS has won 3 maps vs 1 for the LW. We're losing the war of attrition ie. our numbers of a/c shot down are similar but we lose way more pilots than the VVS. Why? can't be chute shooting (ok thats a joke)...maybe you're right - the IL2 is built very rugged and you survive crashes more than LW planes. 

 

At the end of the day its the war on the ground that matters and we (LW) are getting our butts kicked. Just like the last campaign. So head on over and fly for the LW if you want a challenge. It seems we can only win with a large numerical advantage in pilots.

 

And again that is thanks to a few exceptional players who can rack up four, six, ten kills in a single battle. If it weren't for those few aces the VVS would get their ass handed to them completely. Especially as Germany finally has started to play on a team-level as they are supposed to play (using their bombers better, cleaning up ground targets with jabos, pushing the VVS back by bombing their airfields into shit so that it is easy for LW to establish air dominance over and even on the way to the targets for IL-2s and Pe-2s). Denying VVS their only real strength (the IL-2s and the Pe-2-divebombing) the only thing the LW can lose at is to recklessly lose pilots (for example having Ju 87s attacking tank columns before Ju 88s and Bf 110s have cleaned up the AA, poor CAP over their Stukas with their superior 109s, etc).

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

.....

 

Unfortunately most of the LW team would never hop in an attacker or bomber, would NEVER attach a bomb to their precious 109, or ever risk getting killed attacking a ground target as they would lose their streak. If all the LW Hartmanns focused on escorting their attackers/bombers, dove in to distract and take out AAA at targets so their bombers could get through, the LW would be far more effective at actually winning a map.

From last 24 h I see blues do things differently good work LW it's very likely that I could not have chance to see current map after i come back this evening

[A_radek]

Good work blue. From a red perspective, last map has been a night and day difference. Now facing a coordinated team effort. 

[JG1_Pragr]

...

The fact that LW's bombers are so strong (Two He 111 can in one single pass basically wipe out an airfield or supply depot) means that it is very easy for Germany to push the Russian airfields back. This means that the flight distance is too long for the IL-2s to be able to get to the enemy tanks before the enemy fighters get there, and thus the VVS' only advantage (the IL-2) has been invalidated.

...

According to my experience this isn't true.

 

The SC1000 can't destroy the single whole target on the AF. Hangars, storage and planes within each target group are spread enough to make this impossible. Maybe it's possible to eliminate one target by one He111 loaded with 2xSC1000. So you need three Heinkels at best. Moreover only few or even just one AF is/are marked as target and therefore they can be attacked. The others are untouchable. In most case that means you have to fly 30 km to the target instead of up to 20 km. 

[Retrofly]

I'd like to comment on whether VVS or LW planes are better.

 

There may be an official answer, maybe the 109's are better, but IMO pilot skill, tactics and teamwork account for more than the plane, by a long way.

 

I see such generalizations as "If I see a 109 I automatically lose" and "109's are always up high", and laugh.

 

There is never a clear cut outcome to a scenario, if an Il2 can shoot down an F4 in a dogfight then certainly a Lagg or a Yak.

 

Maybe its just me but I spend a lot of time in my 109 being dived on by Mig's and Yak's flying high at 8-9-10km, almost every time I get into a dogfight with a VVS fighter, there are at least another 1 or 2 waiting to get involved.

 

"But now you're just like everyone else complaining about the other side" I hear you cry.

 

But wait, if I was fly VVS I'd probably be saying the exact same things "109's always diving on me", "too many 109's", "109 OP plz nerf"

 

The truth is, if you're getting shot down its probably because the other guy is better than you, or a flight is working together better than you are. Or in some cases you were just unlucky.

Its not the planes or the ammo or balance.

[scram77]

 

The truth is, if you're getting shot down its probably because the other guy is better than you, or a flight is working together better than you are. Or in some cases you were just unlucky.

Its not the planes or the ammo or balance.

Yep - that's why I get shot down most of the time. 

 

I am always amazed at how good some pilots are in this game - It's great to watch....although grates after the 100th time in a row!!

[A_radek]

I'd like to comment on whether VVS or LW planes are better.

 

There may be an official answer, maybe the 109's are better, but IMO pilot skill, tactics and teamwork account for more than the plane, by a long way.

 

I see such generalizations as "If I see a 109 I automatically lose" and "109's are always up high", and laugh.

 

There is never a clear cut outcome to a scenario, if an Il2 can shoot down an F4 in a dogfight then certainly a Lagg or a Yak.

 

Maybe its just me but I spend a lot of time in my 109 being dived on by Mig's and Yak's flying high at 8-9-10km, almost every time I get into a dogfight with a VVS fighter, there are at least another 1 or 2 waiting to get involved.

 

"But now you're just like everyone else complaining about the other side" I hear you cry.

 

But wait, if I was fly VVS I'd probably be saying the exact same things "109's always diving on me", "too many 109's", "109 OP plz nerf"

 

The truth is, if you're getting shot down its probably because the other guy is better than you, or a flight is working together better than you are. Or in some cases you were just unlucky.

Its not the planes or the ammo or balance.

In many ways I agree. I tried going blue for a few missions last campaign and it was hardly easy mode. However, when teams are 20:50 and your going up in a lagg against fw's and F4's, there's no denying things get very interesting.

 

My only wish in terms of balancing is to have some way of limiting excessive team stacking. If there's 20 red and 40 blue, don't allow more blue to join and fill up the server. This would go both ways.

Edited September 18, 2017 by a_radek

[JG1_Pragr]

Well, if you're going to call me out, you could start by showing me where I made any errors - what you've said does nothing to justify this statement.

 

Just leave it. This would be a long discussion.

 

I use the bomber case as an example of what I was pointing out. Yes, you were talking about the bomb load. But then you wrote that German bombers have advantage because of that. I try to say that the whole situation is far from to be so easy. Just for illustration, lets say there are two bombers. One can fly 500 km/h with 1 000 kg of bombs, the other 250 km/h with 2 000 kg of bombs. Stated that the second one has huge advantage because of its amount of bomb is wrong the same way as say the first one has huge advantage due to its speed. Survivability is another factor here. Higher speed supports you with lower loss per mission ratio. lower loss ratio means higher number of bomb delivered to the target. Additionally if you use faster bomber the time you need to get to the target is shorter. Therefore when you join the mission in progress and there are 30 minutes to the end you can take the faster bomber and do your job. Not the slower one. I don't claim the VVS bombers are better than German. I claim that both side differ. And that I think there is the edge on the German side. But far from be so huge as many seem to believe.

 

The other points are very similar, but as I wrote. Just leave it.

[JG1_Pragr]

In many ways I agree. I tried going blue for a few missions last campaign and it was hardly easy mode. However, when teams are 20:50 and your going up in a lagg against fw's and F4's, there's no denying things get very interesting.

 

My only wish in terms of balancing is to have some way of limiting excessive team stacking. If there's 20 red and 40 blue, don't allow more blue to join and fill up the server. This would go both ways.

I don't understand why people still argue about 20 reds vs 40-50 blues. Yes, there is a time, usually around 9.00 p.m. CET where the German side has 2:1 advantage. But during other period of day the situation is sometime even worse in opposite terms. Usually it's morning and early afternoon of CET.

[A_radek]

I don't understand why people still argue about 20 reds vs 40-50 blues. Yes, there is a time, usually around 9.00 p.m. CET where the German side has 2:1 advantage. But during other period of day the situation is sometime even worse in opposite terms. Usually it's morning and early afternoon of CET.

Yes though that time you mention happens to be the only time a day I have an opportunity to do some flying. And like you yourself say it happens both ways. So what would be a valid argument not to fix this? I realize excessive red/blue pilots might choose another server if their side is full, but it might also attract more pilots to the currently unpopular team.

 

Not asking for a 1:1 ratio. Only to have a limit when it's more than 2:1.

Edited September 18, 2017 by a_radek

[Herne]

Is the capture percentage rule still in effect?   That also would also help to explain the attrition.

 

At least in earlier TAWs I remember:

• If a German pilot was shot down over enemy lines he had a VERY slim chance of getting a successful bailout, with the high percentage of being captured (which counts as a pilot loss/death).
• If a Russian pilot was shot down over enemy lines he has a much higher percentage chance of not getting captured, thus the pilot survives.

If you look at the aircraft loss on each side they are often *pretty close*; however, for the similar amount of aircraft lost, the Germans are more often captured after bailing out, resulting in the high pilot attrition numbers.

 

Not complaining or saying it isn't accurate--- just how those numbers decide who wins the map more often than not.   For the LW to win the attrition war, they need to make sure they chute down the Russian pilots and make sure those pilots don't survive--- far more than driving the ground war based off of the design of the current game mechanics. 

 

 

I have wondered about this myself. This is only my second campaign, flew LW in the first one and VVS this one, but I was shot out of the cockpit so many times flying various LW planes, but very rarely flying as VVS.

 

ofcourse some of my LW deaths could be attributed to trying to vulch some poor i16, and realising too late that my controls had locked up lol.

[curiousGamblerr]

I have wondered about this myself. This is only my second campaign, flew LW in the first one and VVS this one, but I was shot out of the cockpit so many times flying various LW planes, but very rarely flying as VVS.

 

ofcourse some of my LW deaths could be attributed to trying to vulch some poor i16, and realising too late that my controls had locked up lol.

I get the impression most 109 pilots remove the headrest as a rule, and that's your rear facing armor. I'm curious how much this has to do with the number of pilot deaths on LW but there's no way to tell for sure.

[Mad_Mikhael]

IMO the cause is AP ammo. IIRC, VVS got 2 AP and 1 HE in ammo belt, LW: 1 AP and 2 HE. And looks like AP ammo is much better then HE in BO. In previous campaing I was flying on VVS side, and A LOT of my kills were by pilot kill. Target plane was flying, but pilot was dead. On LW side, so far I killed maybe 2 pilots with my guns.

Edited September 18, 2017 by =L/R=Mad_Mikhael

[Retrofly]

If we check the current stats

 

Axis lost:

Aircraft 573 / 1300

Pilots 442 / 900

77% Death rate

 

Allies lost :

Aircraft 498 / 1300

Pilots 320 / 900

64% Death rate

 

There would defiantly be evidence to suggest that VVS planes are more survivable. But in this case it doesn't matter, even if every VVS lost plane caused a death they would still be winning by nearly 100 pilots.

 

There may be other factors at play here, obviously you don't know how people are dieing, are they pilot sniped, flying too low, kill at low alts by ground fire etc but still interesting.

Edited September 18, 2017 by =FEW=Retrofly

[AKA_Relent]

Just leave it. This would be a long discussion.

 

I use the bomber case as an example of what I was pointing out. Yes, you were talking about the bomb load. But then you wrote that German bombers have advantage because of that. I try to say that the whole situation is far from to be so easy. Just for illustration, lets say there are two bombers. One can fly 500 km/h with 1 000 kg of bombs, the other 250 km/h with 2 000 kg of bombs. Stated that the second one has huge advantage because of its amount of bomb is wrong the same way as say the first one has huge advantage due to its speed. Survivability is another factor here. Higher speed supports you with lower loss per mission ratio. lower loss ratio means higher number of bomb delivered to the target. Additionally if you use faster bomber the time you need to get to the target is shorter. Therefore when you join the mission in progress and there are 30 minutes to the end you can take the faster bomber and do your job. Not the slower one. I don't claim the VVS bombers are better than German. I claim that both side differ. And that I think there is the edge on the German side. But far from be so huge as many seem to believe.

 

The other points are very similar, but as I wrote. Just leave it.

Well, you have your opinion, and taking other things into account like speed, sure, it affects the ability to get to the target within a certain time, compared to the other side with slower bombers. However, there are a lot of other factors as well, which I didn't get into - I was only talking about payload. Two things quickly come to mind - one is that in my experience any bombers making it to the supply depots are typically escorted. So even getting to the bombers can be difficult. Another is that the 110's can be used for the same purpose, and they are just as fast as the Pe-2's, and carry a similar payload (more actually, after looking at the loadout options). So your points are valid, just taking into account different perspectives, so I personally won't say what you said is full of errors.

 

And if you want me to just leave it, then have some respect instead of instantly saying what I've said is full of errors, which you've still not justified, lol! Ok now I'm ready to leave it if you are ready to leave your generalizations at the door as well .

Edited September 18, 2017 by AKA_Relent

[ACG_KaiLae]

Is it intentional that if you shoot down a plane after damage stops your engine, that it doesn't count?

[[TWB]80hd]

I don't understand why people still argue about 20 reds vs 40-50 blues. Yes, there is a time, usually around 9.00 p.m. CET where the German side has 2:1 advantage. But during other period of day the situation is sometime even worse in opposite terms. Usually it's morning and early afternoon of CET.

It has markedly improved of late... it's the overall average that most of us scrutinizing this are looking at.

[[TWB]Pand]

If we check the current stats

 

Axis lost:

Aircraft 573 / 1300

Pilots 442 / 900

77% Death rate

 

Allies lost :

Aircraft 498 / 1300

Pilots 320 / 900

64% Death rate

 

There would defiantly be evidence to suggest that VVS planes are more survivable. But in this case it doesn't matter, even if every VVS lost plane caused a death they would still be winning by nearly 100 pilots.

 

There may be other factors at play here, obviously you don't know how people are dieing, are they pilot sniped, flying too low, kill at low alts by ground fire etc but still interesting.

Don't forget what I mentioned above regarding bail out survivability in enemy territory. It is my understanding that the VVS have a much higher percentage of survival instead of getting captured (pilot loss) than the LW does.

 

I believe this has a far larger impact than everyone realizes.

[AKA_Relent]

Don't forget what I mentioned above regarding bail out survivability in enemy territory. It is my understanding that the VVS have a much higher percentage of survival instead of getting captured (pilot loss) than the LW does.

I believe this has a far larger impact than everyone realizes.

From what I read somewhere in this forum from an =LG= member, it's a 60-40% ratio of avoiding capture for Russians vs Germans, if bailing or crash landing in enemy territory. This is based on the premise that the battles are over Russian/Soviet land, and that the civilian population is more apt to help a Russian pilot avoid capture than a German pilot, which makes sense.

 

Attacking over enemy territory is risky, and the way these campaigns have gone so far, the German side has been much more aggressive and successful in taking territory. But it's at a cost - higher pilot attrition - so I'm not surprised that the only way the Russian side has won many of these maps is typically because of lower pilot attrition. I would think due to the successes on the German side that the Russians fly a higher percent over their lines defending than on the other side attacking. Also (at least during the times I fly), I'm usually on the side with less numbers, so it's more risky to cross the lines as there is a greater chance that most/all targets are being CAP'd.

 

So (tongue firmly in cheek), if the Germans want to win more maps, stop attacking the Russian targets! :D...

Edited September 18, 2017 by AKA_Relent

[FTC_DerSheriff]

Sometimes I wonder why the guys dont think about bailing in the fights. The just often fight until its to late!

[FTC_Riksen]

Sometimes I wonder why the guys dont think about bailing in the fights. The just often fight until its to late!

Because of players like HeY who wont hesitate to shoot you hanging in your chute ...

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Sometimes I wonder why the guys dont think about bailing in the fights. The just often fight until its to late!

True. Either fly so low the Drop won't kill you (5m or less) or high enough so your Chute opens (400+m), and if you are inbetween, if you still have a slight bit of control, pull up to Eject.

Because of players like HeY who wont hesitate to shoot you hanging in your chute ...

2ndSS are so honourable, they will try to Chutekill Ju-52 Pilots. Now these guys are Grade A Cunts. 

 

I'd go so far to ask for some Support from both sides to make their lives difficult and bleed their Ranks until they leave. They do not fly Ground Attack and their behaviour is cancerous.

Edited September 18, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[FTC_DerSheriff]

Because of players like HeY who wont hesitate to shoot you hanging in your chute ...

So rather jam into the ground?

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

So rather jam into the ground?

We had the Sky Police in War Thunder back then, which I was a Part of, against invulnerable Gun Shippers in B-17s who made it impossible to fly any late war Scenario in Sim Mode. 

We basically rammed the Bombers out of the Skies in friendly Aircraft back then. 

 

So why not dust off these old Badges and work from the inside again. Report 2ndSS Positions to German Players with strict Orders to Strafe and Chutekill them. 

 

After all, one of the rules of War is that absolute Brutality wears out the Troops and Kills Morale. SS Units which were known to kill POWs were often "stabbed in the back" by Wehrmacht Units trying to save their own Backs in case they were captured themselves. 

 

There is a Reason PoWs are a thing. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[Major_Issue]

Got a headache. Facepalmed hard.

This is Kindergarten-Level and the same old stupid chute-killing stuff all over again.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Knez

[6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann]

Got a headache. Facepalmed hard.

This is Kindergarten-Level and the same old stupid chute-killing stuff all over again.

LW not being able to do anything while double the numbers but one or two guys chutekilling is the biggest problem. GG.

It's a Show of extreme Disrespect in a Sphere that many regard in the same way like an RPG. In a way it's like breaking Role just to be extra mean, Rule Playing. 

 

It's like sitting in a Pub watching a Football Match, you and your mates rooting for one side, and on the other table another Group of Guys, both having a good time, some beers and some Banter inbetween the Tables. And once in a while there is a little fight. 

Now Chutekilling is like one of the Guys from that other Table winning a fight  and just starting to  piss you straight in the Face in Victory.

 

That is the Kind of Disrespect the guys getting Chutekilled feel.  

Edited September 18, 2017 by 6./ZG26_Klaus-Mann

[Haza]

We had the Sky Police in War Thunder back then, which I was a Part of, against invulnerable Gun Shippers in B-17s who made it impossible to fly any late war Scenario in Sim Mode.

We basically rammed the Bombers out of the Skies in friendly Aircraft back then.

 

So why not dust off these old Badges and work from the inside again. Report 2ndSS Positions to German Players with strict Orders to Strafe and Chutekill them.

Unfortunately we have players in game that appear to treat TAW as another populated server. However we cant exclude a minority of idiots because I guess that would stiffle MP interest. If numbers are low and depending who or what teams are on the opposite side and depending on what they usually do interms of fighters or bombs depends if I bother logging in. If you annoy players enough with things like chute killing or ramming, players will no longer bother with TAW and the amazing numbers will fall away. However, I guess some players care little about what others think in a game that requies 2 sides and perhaps are more interested in their stats. I would personally like to see that when one side has fewer airfields the total numbers and types of aircraft available are significantly reduced. Currently in map 5 the Luftwaffe have worked hard to gain territory yet VVS have the same number of players and aircraft in fewer airfields and thus I believe will be able to win the map, purely because of pilot attrition. If this continually happens,my interest in subsequent maps will certainly waiver as this is the second time blues have worked well as a team with little to show for it. Just my thoughts.

 

Regards

[curiousGamblerr]

Got a headache. Facepalmed hard.

This is Kindergarten-Level and the same old stupid chute-killing stuff all over again.

It honestly just makes me want to do it more.

 

Kill 'em all! Pft

[[TWB]Pand]

From what I read somewhere in this forum from an =LG= member, it's a 60-40% ratio of avoiding capture for Russians vs Germans, if bailing or crash landing in enemy territory. This is based on the premise that the battles are over Russian/Soviet land, and that the civilian population is more apt to help a Russian pilot avoid capture than a German pilot, which makes sense.

Does anyone have a link to that post?

Edited September 19, 2017 by [TWB]Pand

[AKA_Relent]

Does anyone have a link to that post?

 

Hmm, I looked for that post in this thread and the TAW problems thread and couldn't find it, but I was certain I read it somewhere.  I did find this post for an older iteration of TAW, when it was actually 20%/50% for Russian/German chances of being captured in enemy territory:  https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/21029-tactical-air-war/page-27?do=findComment&comment=383974 .

 

Maybe someone from =LG= can clarify what the current percentages are.