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IL2 Sturmovik: Battle of Guadacanal/Midway

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Guncams are a bit problematic, they shown only a short moment of combat. Initially I was more referring to modern airshows or so, and those videos at least give some perspective on the aircraft in the air.

 

But to answer the question, Japanese rarely installed gun cameras on their aircraft so none is there. 

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Ki-61? More like Japanese MC. 202, kidding, I prefer IJA planes to IJN planes, why did IJA even have more planes than their Navy? 

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Why did IJA even have more planes than their Navy?

For the same reason the USAAF operated way more plane types and in far greater numbers than the USN: When you have to transport an air force around on carriers with limited space and long supply lines it puts severe restrictions on both the number of planes that can be carried and the number of plane types that can be serviced.

 

I don't think any aircraft carrier in WW2 ever operated more than 3 plane types at a time.

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Ki-61? More like Japanese MC. 202, kidding, I prefer IJA planes to IJN planes, why did IJA even have more planes than their Navy? 

Because the variety of tasks Japanese Army was dedicated to was greater than Japanese Navy and also a bit outdated doctrine. Ki-43 basically fulfilled requirements for a long range escort fighter with great rate of climb and superior dogfight capabilities and after all was a main fighter used by IJA until 1944.

Ki-44 was a response to 1938 Heiki Kenkyu Hoshin, which was basically a plan to modernize and improve Japanese Army aviation service. Ki-44 role was eventually specified in 1939, after some experiences of Khalkin-Gol and more importantly Spanish War, when it was recognized that there is a need for an interceptor with speed of 600+ km/h, great rate of climb and heavy armament (2+ heavy machine guns, or actually machine cannons as Japanese considered everything of 12+ mm as kikanho - a machine cannon). Maneuverability and range had secondary importance.

 

Ki-61 was a response to 1940 requirements for a new, modern and with considerably better performance aircraft. Its concept also evolved after failure of Ki-60, generally Ki-61 design team focused on fulfillment of two seemingly mutually-exclusive requirements: maximum speed and maximum agility. Ki-61 represented a modern high speed, well armed and most importantly well protected aircraft.

 

So how to answer that initial question ? Well, Japanese Army had a great variety of aircraft because of great variety of tasks. Their doctrine was also focused around two types of aircraft - light and heavy fighter. First (kei tanza sentoki) came as Ki-43 and second (ju tanza sentoki) as Ki-44. Ki-61 and Ki-60 were also supposed to fit that, but experiences of war and great mind of Takeo Doi allowed to make one fighter to satisfy both needs - a medium fighter (chukan sentoki).

I know it looks a bit weird, but that was Japanese Army doctrine from 1930s, to have two types of fighters for different purposes. Eventually they realized that such idea is artificial. It was argued that in real combat conditions it was unrealistic to expect enemy fighters to be engaged exclusively by light fighters or bombers to be attacked by heavy fighters only.

 

 

On the other hand Japanese Navy was satisfied with one fighter, as the criteria for its design were more harsh. After all Zero was did what Ki-43 and Ki-44 could do almost as good but also could do far more things which they couldn't. The confirmation of theory came  during a joint performance competition held in January 1941. 

Japanese Army proposed to the Navy's Yokosuka Air Base that a joint contest be held, consisting of dogfights, speed, climb performance, diving and zooming performance, turn performance, etc. 

Japanese Army entered the competition with three machines : 

1. Ki-27 Otsu 

2. Ki-44-I

3. Ki-43-I

Navy accepted the proposal and decided to enter with only one fighter, the Zero. In the contest Zero was a bit handicapped, as the evaluation did not consider several of Zero's strongest points: its ability to land on aircraft carriers, its ability to serve as a long-range escort, and its 20-mm cannons. Also if compared to Zero, all three Army fighters were specialized.

 

But the results were more than optimistic for Navy, Zero did not loose in a single event except for the climb contest. Ki-44 in this area proved to be superior. However in turn performance but also vertical maneuvers Zero was superior to other aircraft, though Ki-27 could make a tighter turns but overall dogfight performance was inferior to Zero. A Zero pilot, Lieutenant Shimokawa commented; "If the comparisons had been made in all-around performance, including range and effectiveness of the 20-mm cannons, the superiority of the Zero would be even more obvious".

 

So Japanese Navy had one machine to satisfy all needs.

 

 

 

When you have to transport an air force around on carriers with limited space and long supply lines it puts severe restrictions on both the number of planes that can be carried and the number of plane types that can be serviced.

Not best comparison. Japanese Navy was not only operating from carriers but also land bases. Navy was responsible for defense of their own bases and carry their own operations. The differences between USAAF and USN dont really apply to IJN and IJA.  

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For the same reason the USAAF operated way more plane types and in far greater numbers than the USN: When you have to transport an air force around on carriers with limited space and long supply lines it puts severe restrictions on both the number of planes that can be carried and the number of plane types that can be serviced.

 

I don't think any aircraft carrier in WW2 ever operated more than 3 plane types at a time.

Some complements included two fighters/fighter bombers, F6F and F4U, but yeah no more than four main types. Much of this also had to do with limited repair facilites as much as the space available for the aircraft themselves. You have to be able to store parts and the crews to work on them. They used the same/similar engine so the engine shop would have overlap, as would most systems and general aircraft maintenance. On the other hand you'd still have to keep airframe specific parts and crews aboard to service each type. The USN also kept the F4F in service by relegating them to light carriers for much of the war in the PTO. This kept more aircraft numbers and types in the air at any one time in the latter years of the Pacific campaign.

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I know some of you don't like Pacific Theater of Operations.

 

Uh what makes you think that? I would love a Pacific theater expansion. They can segway into it by making 'IL-2 STURMOVIK: THE BATTLE OF MANCHURIA'.

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Take note of the snappy roll rate on the P40 compared to the other three...

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Right now, anything I can fly can suit me, but we're stuck on this big old patch of ice! We need hotter weather..

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There is always some airshow in US  :)

 

I have seen this plane (F6F-5 from VF-12) in person and seen in fly. I work at Boeing at Paine Field (KPAE). I live 25min from this museum. There is another museum adjacent to it that has a flying B-29, F8F-1b, F7F-1, Spitfire Mk.IX, Mustang Mk.III that I know of. It is called the Historic Flight Foundation.

 

 

edit:

 

 

post-12904-0-40193200-1434909599_thumb.jpg

 

Edited by 6./ZG1=SPEKTRE76

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Take note of the snappy roll rate on the P40 compared to the other three...

Yes, I noticed that too. That rapid changes seem to be matching the documentation for early P-40's. Although we cant be sure if other pilots were moving their sticks to the limits :) That only makes me more interested in P-40 were getting in September !

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not gonna happen. this is called il2, not p40. the reason this franchise is failing because they're going after the american market which is dominated by other genres and has a tiny little sim market. go after the europeans. il 2 was made by russians and largely consumed by euros. please go back to that. stop pandering to americans with unlocks and bs like that.

 

thank you.

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Ekehm, look around - on this forums we have guys from Australia, New Zealand, Bangkok, etc. Also implying that Europeans have no interest in Pacific, when there were also British and Dutch pilots fighting in the skies over Burma or New Guinea. 

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All aside,  I came to my conclusion, I think we should hit North Africa next, makes sense with the aircraft, Bf 109s, 110s,, Macchis and Tomahawk/Kittyhawk action

 

 

 

 

 

marse1.jpg

 

 

Hans Joachim Marseille

 

Messerschmitt_bf_109e-7_trop_color_JG27_

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not gonna happen. this is called il2, not p40. the reason this franchise is failing because they're going after the american market which is dominated by other genres and has a tiny little sim market. go after the europeans. il 2 was made by russians and largely consumed by euros. please go back to that. stop pandering to americans with unlocks and bs like that.

 

thank you.

Utter tripe, I can't think of a single American who wanted or likes the unlocks. Nice try on the anti-American rant.

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If someone would be curious how the operations were looking from the other side, here is the original footage of Japanese aircraft carriers and some daily activities :

 

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Huh, the thread has collected a lot of dust since last post.

I have found something new and extremely interesting for all those who like to hear the real pilots, I remember all that excitement after videos for DCS with Erich Brunotte or others.

 

So here is interview with Mr. Honda Minoru.

 

 

 

Honda Minoru was a WWII Ace in the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Force, and later flew as a member of the Japanese Self Defense Forces. He clocked in over 9800 hours of flying in his entire career, and is credited with at least 17 kills. This is the beginning of his story.

 

Edited by =LD=Hiromachi
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SNAFU:  :negative: 

 

 

Brewster Wildcat? :blink:  

post-86794-0-52573000-1449505657_thumb.jpg

Really an F4F?  :cool: 

post-86794-0-39969600-1449505711_thumb.jpg

 

Movie Goof "Midway": :blush:   

post-86794-0-05759500-1449505726_thumb.jpg

Movie Goof: "Beware of Propellers & Jet Blast" (Movie "Midway", FM-2 Wildcats on Lexington's elevator, on-board scene filmed in 1975 aboard the USS Lexington, CV-16, today a museum ship in Corpus Christi, Texas)

 

 

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@Jubles
 

Come on men, you don't want to be a Butch O'Hare

 
BTW, here is an interesting video (25 Min.) about O'Hare:
 
<KETC | Living St. Louis | Edward Butch O'Hare>
 
 
 
For watching the video outside the US a YouTube proxy with server location in the United States is required:
 
 
 
 
BTW: The caption "DEC. 4,1943--Lieutenant Commander Edward H. O'Hare talks with young pilots..." of photo 8 is wrong, as O’Hare’s final action took place on the night of November 26, 1943.
 
 
 
@19te.Deafbee
 

Brings back good memories from Battlehawks 1942 on the Amiga back in 1988.

 
I played BH1942 on the Atari, later on PC with CH Flightstick  :happy:
 
 
The Battlehawks 1942 manual was impressive:
 
 
 
 
The following mission in BH1942 was rated "Impossible", I never completed it successfully:  :blink:
 
"Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands: Fly CAP in your Wildcat, and protect the Hornet from a combined attack of Vals and Kates"
Edited by Felix_VF-3

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I think if they did anything Pacific-wise it would be more like:

 

 

IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Khalkhin Gol

 

 

Aircraft would be this:

 

VVS:
 

  • SB-2M-103
  • I-153 (M62)
  • I-15 BiS
  • I-16 Type 5  & Type 10
  • TB-3-4M-17F
  • TB-3-4AM-34FRN
  • R-5Sh

IJA:
 

  • Ki-10-II Type 95-2
  • Ki-15-II Type 97
  • Ki-21-IIb
  • Ki-27b Type 97b
  • Ki-30
  • Ki-36
  • Br.20M
  • Ki-4 Type 94
  • G3M1
  • A5M1 Type 96

 

 

 

So, pretty early war machines to say the least. The I-16 would become a 'Troll' bird on MP servers for sure.

Edited by 6./ZG1=SPEKTRE76

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No, please, just no. Let's start somewhere after 1941 and use the major players in the PTO. Maybe get to these niche within a niche within a niche barttles after the franchise is flush with money and can take a risk on the lesser known early war campaigns.

Edited by [LBS]HerrMurf
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It's just a movie brah. You can write anything into a script you want. Just because it is historically themed doesn't mean it is historically accurate. In fact most movies which are, "based on fact," take liberties with the truth/actual events. Some small, some rather flagrant.

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IMHO it is unimaginable, for example, O'Hare or Vraciu could have acted in this way! :soldier:

 

The "Last Friends" movie stunt pilot flying the F6F was Kevin Eldrige of Planes of Fame Air Museum, most likely he did not realize, this Japanese movie would be used to stain the reputation of WWII US Navy pilots... :negative:

Transgressions of the laws of war and basic human rights happen in all wars on all sides. Can't see how this is a "stain" on anything.

 

When these violations become planned and systemic, that's what seperates the "good guys" from the "bad guys" in war.

 

To imagine soldiers on one side in WW2 being paragons of virtue is just kidding yourself.

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To imagine soldiers on one side in WW2 being paragons of virtue is just kidding yourself.

Probably so. But given that premise, I'd sooner have been on the side with at least a sliver of "moral conscience". While I'm certain atrocities of one degree or another occurred in all the warring combatants, none were planned by the U.S. or the other Western allies. Certainly none on par with that of the Axis powers.

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I dont think atrocities and war crimes are really part of this forum, so it would be best to simply avoid those kinds of topics. Talking about war, military equipment and so on is a one thing, but it brings bad attitude when discussions shifts towards atrocities. 

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Likely so. But unfortunately it's difficult to discuss the machines without discussing the hows and whys of their use. I was merely replying to the two previous posts and the points made in them.

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I came across an interesting site with Chronology of seemingly all USAAF WWII operations' day by day

example for Aug/43

 

http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/wwii/usaf/html/Aug.43.html

 

Sunday Aug 1

 

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, P-40's and US Navy aircraft again hit Munda on New Georgia Island
bombing AA positions, ammunition dumps, and other targets. 21 B-24's, 16
P-38's, and P-40's, and 30+ US Navy airplanes pound Kahili Airfield on
Bougainville Island; other P-40's and 80+ Navy aircraft hit shipping in
nearby waters.
The 64th Troop Carrier Squadron, 403d Troop Carrier Group, arrives at
Tontouta, New Caledonia Island from the US with C-47's and begins flying
missions on 7 Aug 43.
The 371st Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 307th Bombardment Group (Heavy)
ceases operating from Funafuti Island in the Ellice Islands with B-24's and
returns to it's base on Espiritu Santo Island, New Hebrides Islands for
R&R.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): A lone B-24
bombs the airfield at Lae, New Guinea.

 

Full site 

 

http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/wwii/usaf/html/

 

not sure how definitive it is or how accurate but certainly seemed worth posting

 

Cheers Dakpilot

Edited by Dakpilot

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Now hold thy ponies bros, what about Battle of Wake Island, Iwo Jima, Marianas, and Japan (Mainland Japan!).  Lets not forget the Battle of Korea (the whole Korea) between the Soviets and Imperial Army of Japan (Dai-Nippon Teikoku Rikugun) and its Air-force (which this tropic already established) Imperial Army Air Force of Japan (Dainippon Teikoku Rikugun Hikōsentai).

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Battle of Wake Island

Rather a small event, too small for a whole game.

 

 

 

Iwo Jima

Whole aerial battle lasted less than a week. It's really just a Zeros desperately trying to fight with much superior in numbers, skills and performance Hellcats.

 

 

 

Marianas

That would actually be cool. One can get a major naval battle and there are still islands to land, defend, attack and multiple ways to make scenarios.

 

 

 

Japan

Way too big itself, though a small part of it like Southern Kyushu and Okinawa area would be totally fine. That would cover months of operations, in particular kamikaze ones. That would also allow to bring very late war Japanese and US designs.

 

 

 

Battle of Korea
 

There wasn't any battle for Korea, there was a big operation in Manchuria where Japanese tried to resist but the massive disproportion in forces made it impossible to hold the ground.

Campaign was short and didnt see much aerial combat. 

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There wasn't any battle for Korea, there was a big operation in Manchuria where Japanese tried to resist but the massive disproportion in forces made it impossible to hold the ground. Campaign was short and didnt see much aerial combat. 
 

 

OK, OK, I meant to put it bluntly as Soviet–Japanese War of 1945.  There should be some evidences of a Japanese Imperial Army Air Force remains in Japanese Fifth Area Army to encountered the Red marines of the Soviet Navy and Mongolian Cavalry Group.

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Philipines please. At least any kind of successor for pacific fighters. Id throw my money on the screen

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Philippines 1942 or 1944 ?  :lol:

 

Either way its a very big area to cover, proper choice of island and airfields might not be easy. Also it would be hard to choose proper planeset, there are just so many options since you have Japanese Army, Navy, US Navy, Marines ... 

Japanese would be a bit underdog here, their top fighters would be Ki-61, N1K1-J and Ki-84 with some older models like Ki-43-III, Ki-44-II and A6M5 present as well. Not to even mention all the bombers, G3M, G4M, Ki-48, Ki-67, Ki-51, B5N, B6N, D3A2, D4Y ... 

 

I'm more into Burma, due to shorter distances, beautiful landscapes and more limited setup. 

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Burma sounds like a good scenario...Spitfires etc

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Possible planeset for 1944 would be :

 

                                        Allied  aircraft   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Japanese Aircraft

Standard

              Hawker Hurricane MK II B or C  - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Mitsubishi A6M2/A6M5 or Nakajima  Ki-43 Model II (late model)

                  Supermarine Spitfire Mk VIII  - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Nakajima  Ki-44 Model II or Ki-43 Model III 

                          Vultee Vengeance Mk II - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Mitsubishi Ki-51 

               North American B-25 J Mitchell - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  Kawasaki Ki-48-IIc or Mitsubishi Ki-21-IIc

 

Premium

               North American P-51A Mustang - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate

 

Thats of course not all. There were also Thunderbolts II (P-47 D-25), Moahawks, Mosquitos, Wellingtons X. But its one thing. 

 

The actual possibility for missions, the need to take into account an extreme differences in heights and amount of events around (Arakan, Kohima, Imphal, attack on Myitkyina and Allied offensive towards Irrawady ...), Burma creates great possibilities while does not require outstandingly large map and brings most of the fun stuff flying in less popular variants. 

Edited by =LD=Hiromachi

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Do we really want the side show before we finish the major operation?

The PTO can wait until we get the med, channel front, battle of France, Italy, Balkans, Finland, etc.

The pacific was the last priority for the allied high command, this it should be last for this series.

If you really want to see some player numbers increase make some relevant theaters.

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Laughing so hard my sombrero fell off and i dropped my taco !

 

Do we really want the side show before we finish the major operation?

W almost finished second major operation as a matter of fact, that is Battle of Moscow.

 

The pacific was the last priority for the allied high command, this it should be last for this series.

Logic behind it would astound Aristotle. But nope, Far East might have been least priority for British and Canadian Commands, but Australian, New Zealand and most importantly US could disagree about PTO. While Europe (Germany) was first indeed, which was agreed upon before the Pearl Harbor the usage of resources was greater on Pacific than in Europe almost until the end of 1943. As late as December 1943, the balance was nearly even. Against Japan, the U.S. had deployed 1,873,023 men, 7,857 aircraft, and 713 warships. Against Germany the totals were 1,810,367 men, 8,807 airplanes, and 515 warships. It was the operation Overlord that shifted balance towards ETO. Still, according to official U.S. statistics, 70 percent of the U.S. Navy and all the Marine Corps were deployed in the Pacific as well as the 22 percent of the Army deployed to the Pacific at the time of Germany's surrender so its far from "last priority".

 

The PTO can wait until we get the med, channel front, battle of France, Italy, Balkans, Finland, etc.
If you really want to see some player numbers increase make some relevant theaters. 

First you mentioned Balkans, Finland and Italy and then you speak of relevant theaters. Right ... 

Edited by =LD=Hiromachi
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