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IL2 Sturmovik: Battle of Guadacanal/Midway

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I'm with many of the guys here in that I love the Pacific theater and my introduction to WWII flight simulation started with Dynamix's Aces of the Pacific. Loved that game and played it for many hours. That said... returning to the Pacific is tricky and its a difficult theater to do justice. It's even harder when we have high expectations of fidelity but this is a theater that has massive scale that the others don't.

 

I think the OP is right that you could do Midway and Guadalcanal fairly well together. I'd be a little more interested in something that focused on the whole of the Solomons campaign. That could be made to work fairly well. The flights from Rabaul would be the hardest bit and again we're getting into some incredible scale issues where I'm not sure if I could be done justice.

 

But I think the real interest for me, should this sim move from the East Front at any point (and I'm quite happy to reside there for a while), would be a move to the Mediterranean. Yes it's a European planeset... but its more evenly balanced, it has incredible variety and variation, the scales of the maps don't have to be impossibly large, and its fresh. No-one has made it a focus of a WWII sim yet and I sometimes wonder why that is - it really is a theatre that has everything.

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I would love to fly a Zero with this engine, but... as many says before i rather go for the MTO first i even love to see

what i never see properly done in any sim that is Guerra Civil Española and the early part of the war from Poland 

to battle of Britain, and as other said no just Malta but a massive map where you can fly long bomber and scort 

missions

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Paint the repeating ground with brown desert textures or make it water and islands, it's not going to change the experience. 

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Tricky bit with Midway is the campaign lasted eight or nine days tops. Having to re-fight it over and over again for years would get old fast.

That's why I think they (Midway, Pearl, Wake, and maybe even the Aleutians) are just small maps in a larger PTO release. 

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Paint the repeating ground with brown desert textures or make it water and islands, it's not going to change the experience. 

 

I agree with that.  Different aeroplane shapes and map colours will not be the magic bullet that makes up for the cheap gameplay.  The devs need to focus their resources towards the in-game experience first.  More of the same will not do them or us any good in the long run. 

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I agree because there is plenty to be interested about across the whole MTO and north Africa etc.

MTO is a logical follow .

We have many of already present aircraft . :salute: 

Edited by A-E-Hartmann

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i am a total pto fan

zeke vs wildcat,george vs hellcats,corsairs,oscar,tony vs p40

lot of exotic possibilities:wilde sau like b17 and b24 night interceptions with gekous...

pt boat hunting in kI 45s...also 4 engined bomber hunt with same mount

 

the probem with the naval part is that every plane made by grumman is not free  to model...

Edited by kashiide

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I agree with that.  Different aeroplane shapes and map colours will not be the magic bullet that makes up for the cheap gameplay.  The devs need to focus their resources towards the in-game experience first.  

 

You're right.  We need to be able to give our robot wingmen names.  That will change everything.   :rolleyes:

 

MTO

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You are like Kimmy Yeager

 

LOL  You can name all the enemy robots "kimmy" if it makes you feel better.

 

The gameplay is shooting things down or blowing things up.  The more things we have to blow up or shoot down in more places, the better.

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I'll be okay with a Med theater, and I agree that it has not been done before, also the area is unique but may seem bland to others, just desert. The pacific campaign seems doable, I would like the carriers far but not close. It's a unique area and I know it's been a subject of many games to come with it. It's a perfect place, USMC taking off in their trusty corsairs on the crushed coral runways! This is merely a suggestion, it's on a wishlist, but still a suggestion. We'll see how things pan out in the months to come. We'll start our way with Eastern Theater, then work our way down.

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I would love to see BOB done in this engage but we have had a lot of BOB games maybe something in Italy with the mighty 8th with Red tail support i don't see any resown why we can't have a add on pack based on bombers for a change.

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What bombers ? G4M1, G3M2 played major role for the Japanese. For Americans ... well, there was big diversity - B-24, B-25, B-26 and not so often bu still B-17.

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Based on 8 planes, I would see

A6M2, B5N1, D3A, G4M vs F4F, Dauntless, P39D and Avenger

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Well, you exclude Japanese Army and pretty much any other service (RAAF, RNZAF, KNIL) on the Pacific. That is why I was explaining why NG would be better :
http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/16187-il2-sturmovik-battle-guadacanalmidway/?p=257599

And saw this more like :

 

The fun aircraft set I considered was something like :
A6M2 - P-39 D
A6M3 - Spitfire Vc/trop
D4Y1- A-24 Banshee
G4M1 - B-26
And premiums would be even greater :
Ki-61 - P-38 F or G
Edited by =LD=Hiromachi

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MTO is a logical follow . We have many of already present aircraft .
Indeed, and several more to come in BoM :)

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Based on 8 planes, I would see

A6M2, B5N1, D3A, G4M vs F4F, Dauntless, P39D and Avenger

I'd dump the Avenger for either the B-25 or B-26. If you are lookiing for a 1 to 1 matchup keep the Avenger and dump the P-39 for either of those two mulit-engined bombers.

 

And add these as the the premiums:

 

F4U-1A and either the Ki-61 or J2M3 (which was comedically over performing in 46' in terms of engine cooling)

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J2M3

J2M3 would be far beyond that scenario. It was mostly use in the defense of homeland and in general didnt arrive on the front until 1944.

 

 

 

was comedically over performing in 46' in terms of engine cooling

You mean it was cooling too fast ? Or was hard to overheat ?

Actually that is correct.  

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J2M2 perhaps? Based upon the J2M3's popularity in the '46 series. As a premium aircraft, presence doesn't have to be historically significant. Just tangentially associated, and I'm fine with that.

 

And yeah, more than once I was in long chases (100 miles plus) in my P-51's. I could overheat in my liquid cooled 437 mph plane at 96% while they just stayed at full throttle in their air cooled 365 mph aircraft. I'd say over cooling was an issue in that game for the J2 series.

 

But it was popular. So, either a version of it which is close in timeframe or the Ki-61 which is both pretty and a heavy hitter.

 

 

I'd love to see some twins thrown in as premiums as well:  P-38F and Ki-46 Dinah. Definitely willing to pay for those.

Edited by HerrMurf

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F4U-1A was shipped in 1943 and firts deployed in early 1944, it wouldn't fit the timeframe of said planes (and tbh not be a fair contender either).

 

What I personally would look most forward too speakign of PTO would be the dive and torpedo bombers. They played an important role in the whole pacific naval conflict and came in a variety of very interesting aircraft.

 

Douglas Devastator, SBD Dauntless, TBF Avenger, Helldiver, D3A Aichi Val, B5N Kate, B7A2 Ryusei, D4Y1,..... there's just too many of them I'd like to have! :)

 

As for fighters I guess air combat would not be as popular as in BoS but still interesting. As far as the ammount of action goes map and mission design is the key. Make a good map with a naval battle or invasion and people surely fin their way into combat.

 

May be my interest in PTO is higher due to not being around back in IL-2 times, but my first combat flight expirience was FCS 2 with Hellcats and P-38s over Wake Island. I still remember how I was flying with keyboard and mouse back than and the fascination I had during my first flight trials. This theatre may have been hooked up by various games but none could do it as much justice as one based on the BoS engine.

Edited by Stab/JG26_5tuka

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J2M2 perhaps?

That one is mid 1943. Raidens were mainly used to defend Homeland, some were used on Philippines but their second important area of operation were oil fields in Dutch East Indies.  

 

 

 

And yeah, more than once I was in long chases (100 miles plus) in my P-51's. I could overheat in my liquid cooled 437 mph plane at 96% while they just stayed at full throttle in their air cooled 365 mph aircraft. I'd say over cooling was an issue in that game for the J2 series.

 

Well, speeds are relative. Besides,  Raiden was much faster than 365 mph. And your 437 mph is a top speed, but achieved at specific altitude. That means he could be flying in his best altitude, but you were not in yours. 

Although in general Raiden and Ki-84 were the only Japanese aircraft capable of fighting P-51. N1K2-J was not a good match for it in 1946.

 

Anyway, Raiden was just a "cool" aircraft, it had effective cooling system. Here is what I can quote, from the ATAIU SWPA tests of the aircraft :

4zO5iq.png

 

You have to forgive me for quality of the picture but I received this reel in terrible quality and there was nothing I could do about it.

So to quote specific part : "Oil and engine cooling was exceptionally good, and gave the impression that it would overcool in cold weather. The engine is fitted with a cooling fan similar to that found in the Focke Wulf 190, a gasoline cooler is also fitted"

 

 

 

So, either a version of it which is close in timeframe or the Ki-61 which is both pretty and a heavy hitter.
 

Hien is really neat, and without much effort one 3d model can play all 3 variants as major changes between Ki-61-I Ko to Ki-61-I Hei were ... internal, such as reduction of fuel load and increase of armor. Externally those aircraft would look almost the same, with Hei only having those Mauser cannons in the wings.

 

 

 

P-38F and Ki-46 Dinahs. Definitely willing to pay for those.

I proposed a P-38 vs Ki-61 above, for me that is most natural and iconic combination for those two.

 

For twin engines there could be Beaufighter Ic and Ki-45, both could be actually used against ships (first one had a huge punch with those four Hispanos and second one had a 37 mm cannon in nose).  

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Bit early in the day ...How long did it take in the original Il-2 Sturmovik? I seem to remember it was after 1946 ( I may be wrong in that order tho) and when it did come along it was a bit weak in missions & campaigns ( some things don't seem to change...) In my opinionit really didn't take off until 3rd party modders got hold of it... :cool:

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Battle of the Philippines (44-45). Navy, army, marines, ships, landings, tanks.....

The problem with going with the later years is the Japanese were totally out gunned... Early War stuff was on par for the most part. 

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F4U-1A was shipped in 1943 and firts deployed in early 1944, it wouldn't fit the timeframe of said planes (and tbh not be a fair contender either).

 

What I personally would look most forward too speakign of PTO would be the dive and torpedo bombers. They played an important role in the whole pacific naval conflict and came in a variety of very interesting aircraft.

 

Douglas Devastator, SBD Dauntless, TBF Avenger, Helldiver, D3A Aichi Val, B5N Kate, B7A2 Ryusei, D4Y1,..... there's just too many of them I'd like to have! :)

 

As for fighters I guess air combat would not be as popular as in BoS but still interesting. As far as the ammount of action goes map and mission design is the key. Make a good map with a naval battle or invasion and people surely fin their way into combat.

 

May be my interest in PTO is higher due to not being around back in IL-2 times, but my first combat flight expirience was FCS 2 with Hellcats and P-38s over Wake Island. I still remember how I was flying with keyboard and mouse back than and the fascination I had during my first flight trials. This theatre may have been hooked up by various games but none could do it as much justice as one based on the BoS engine.

Birdcage F4U's were in combat at Henderson in Feb 43. Throw it up against either of the Japanese planes I mentioned and you have a pretty good fight. As I said, and according to the short history of BOS/BOM so far, the aircraft don't have to be directly associated, just in theater.

The problem with going with the later years is the Japanese were totally out gunned... Early War stuff was on par for the most part. 

Completely agree............with a couple of minor exceptions - Ki-61, Ki-84, Ki-100 (minor player) which would do well on small maps and 1v1 or furballs. Historically they were significantly out manned if not out gunned. Overall, however, I tend to agree.

Edited by HerrMurf

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The problem with going with the later years is the Japanese were totally out gunned... Early War stuff was on par for the most part. 

Rather than outgunned just outnumbered and often outperformed.

 

By 1944 most of the Japanese aircraft had two if not four 20 mm cannons, sometimes with a combination of 12.7 mm or 13.2 mm machine guns. That is not weaker than six .50 caliber machine guns.

The problem was lack of good pilots, allied numerical and tactical advantage and radar at that time ... 

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That one is mid 1943. Raidens were mainly used to defend Homeland, some were used on Philippines but their second important area of operation were oil fields in Dutch East Indies.  

 

 

 

 

Well, speeds are relative. Besides,  Raiden was much faster than 365 mph. And your 437 mph is a top speed, but achieved at specific altitude. That means he could be flying in his best altitude, but you were not in yours. 

Although in general Raiden and Ki-84 were the only Japanese aircraft capable of fighting P-51. N1K2-J was not a good match for it in 1946.

 

Anyway, Raiden was just a "cool" aircraft, it had effective cooling system. Here is what I can quote, from the ATAIU SWPA tests of the aircraft :

4zO5iq.png

 

You have to forgive me for quality of the picture but I received this reel in terrible quality and there was nothing I could do about it.

So to quote specific part : "Oil and engine cooling was exceptionally good, and gave the impression that it would overcool in cold weather. The engine is fitted with a cooling fan similar to that found in the Focke Wulf 190, a gasoline cooler is also fitted"

 

 

 

 

Hien is really neat, and without much effort one 3d model can play all 3 variants as major changes between Ki-61-I Ko to Ki-61-I Hei were ... internal, such as reduction of fuel load and increase of armor. Externally those aircraft would look almost the same, with Hei only having those Mauser cannons in the wings.

 

 

 

I proposed a P-38 vs Ki-61 above, for me that is most natural and iconic combination for those two.

 

For twin engines there could be Beaufighter Ic and Ki-45, both could be actually used against ships (first one had a huge punch with those four Hispanos and second one had a 37 mm cannon in nose).  

Forgot about the Beau with my American bias. Yes, always had fun in that AC.

Edited by HerrMurf

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Forgot about the Beau with my American bias. Yes, always had fun in the AC.

Beaufighter and Beaufort played quite important role in the Pacific. And they just look so cool.

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The problem with going with the later years is the Japanese were totally out gunned... Early War stuff was on par for the most part.

Well, it's really not that different from BoM/BoS then, is it? ;) Just reverse early- and late war :biggrin:

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Would simply love a PTO. I won't cry if it doesn't happen, but I'm fascinated by the theatre, the strategy and the tactics. I just love the wildcat vs zeros tangle.

 

Then there is the whole divebombing AND torpedos possibility if it came to this IL2.

 

My best Il2-46 memories are of the campaign battles in the pacific. I was terrible, but fighting over carrier fleets,... just fantastic.

 

I loved that tubby F4.

 

Tempted to go back now...

 

Me too. I loved flying as for the IJA/IJN; especially late war. It was so satisfying to work for your victories, knocking down a Corsair or Hellcat. But it was the setting that just hooked me in...something about the colors just appealed to me. I remember upgrading my entire rig just to be able to get good framerates with "perfect" settings, ha!

 

Pacific would be cool lots of sweet options there if done correctly to avoid three hour flight times over the blue abyss....

 

I would personly rather north Africa,set around the siege of one of the towns or many battles. Think of huge tank formations kicking up dust for miles to see. Also would be easiest to transition to in terms of dev time.

 

Ps I was a little offended by people saying PTO was the most memorable in ww2. That really depends on where ur from

 

I'm for expanding to all theaters. I didn't find the flight times too bad with 8x time compression (yeah, I'm bring up that here) in the SP. As for MP, most of the mission makes managed to work out a happy medium for it! I think all the theaters were memorable, but that's just me, haha.

 

I'm with many of the guys here in that I love the Pacific theater and my introduction to WWII flight simulation started with Dynamix's Aces of the Pacific. Loved that game and played it for many hours. That said... returning to the Pacific is tricky and its a difficult theater to do justice. It's even harder when we have high expectations of fidelity but this is a theater that has massive scale that the others don't.

 

I think the OP is right that you could do Midway and Guadalcanal fairly well together. I'd be a little more interested in something that focused on the whole of the Solomons campaign. That could be made to work fairly well. The flights from Rabaul would be the hardest bit and again we're getting into some incredible scale issues where I'm not sure if I could be done justice.

 

But I think the real interest for me, should this sim move from the East Front at any point (and I'm quite happy to reside there for a while), would be a move to the Mediterranean. Yes it's a European planeset... but its more evenly balanced, it has incredible variety and variation, the scales of the maps don't have to be impossibly large, and its fresh. No-one has made it a focus of a WWII sim yet and I sometimes wonder why that is - it really is a theatre that has everything.

 

Same here, Shamrock! I started with Dynamix's Aces of the Pacific too. I just think that this engine could really do the Pacific Theater justice. Granted, the scale may be difficult however I would think that with the fact it's mostly water, it wouldn't be too taxing. I have no idea, I'm not a programmer! ;)

 

I wonder if there's any other side teams that may be interested in a tackling a project like the MTO/PTO? I do sometimes wonder why the devs haven't enlisted a team to develop expansion packs akin to the classic '46. Granted, times have changed and the complexity of programs has increased immensely so I'm not faulting them at all. I will buy whatever they release since I do enjoy supporting combat flight sims and I believe these devs are on the right track to developing a true successor to '46.

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Paint the repeating ground with brown desert textures or make it water and islands, it's not going to change the experience. 

 

Just taking off and landing on a carrier is a mini-game I could play for hours. Dive-bombing and torpedo-bombing ships, ships that are burning, exploding, sinking... It would require quite a bit of work on the engine, I imagine. And no frigging tree to crash into! Not quite the same experience, IMHO.

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whilst I enjoyed Pacific fighters very much PTO has already been done. I think what is rather interesting though is the next plane set in BoM, because several of those aircraft were in the Mediterranean theatre. I would love to see a Med map created maybe by Zeus with some P40's BF 110's 109's Ju 88's and of course MC.202's.  Hopefully Hurries will be added to this sim at some point in the future  then we can really have a Med mix up.      

 

 

+1

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ships that are burning, exploding, sinking... It would require quite a bit of work on the engine, I imagine.

They could start with some small stuff, such as this :

u6J4l6.jpg Following the losses at the Battle of the Bismarck Sea the Japanese began employing small vessels, including fishing boats, to help supply bases on the north and northeast coast of New Guinea.  During the Finschhafen campaign in Dec. 1943, fishing boats at Hansa Bay were employed to bring supplies west along the coast to the Japanese Army trapped at Sio.   The story is mentioned in Southern Cross, an account of the New Guinea campaigns written by the Chief of Staff of the 18th Army, Lieutenant General Yoshihara Kane : 

"Here upon, as an emergency measure, the Army began to use auxiliary fishing boats from Hansa for transport round the coast of New Guinea; from Hansa, via Karka, Bagubagu, Long the transport began and so a direct supply line to Sio was established.

 
This daring transport was conspicuously successful and brought great rejoicing to the officers and men of 20th Division. It was amazing the courageous deeds these fishing feats [fleets?] did in the skillful hands of the shipping engineers. With no training, no equipment the captains and crews of these fishing posts braved the front line of the fighting and all the dangerous places, saying, "We are immortal. Bring on your arrows or your guns." When attacked by enemy aircraft, they bravely engaged them and miraculously shot them down. However, this secret transport did not long remain hidden from enemy eyes. With the passage of time they were spotted, and their bases were demolished by bombing and the transport unfortunately ceased."
 
This is bigger than ships presented in last Dev Diary, but its just a small step to a bigger and bigger ones :)

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It was mostly use in the defense of homeland and in general didnt arrive on the front until 1944.

 

Actually, it was used practically everywhere the Japanese fought, with its first appearance being in the Philippines. 

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The problem with going with the later years is the Japanese were totally out gunned... Early War stuff was on par for the most part. 

 

Sure they might have been outgunned, but pilots always use their planes to their best advantage, remember, in world war two that the japanese flew in 15-20 planes formation, against four wildcats or so. Again, like I said, the man that is smart with his machine can down anyone.  Like Hiromachi said, they had 2 or 4 20mm cannons which are pretty devastating.  

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You're right.  We need to be able to give our robot wingmen names.  That will change everything.   :rolleyes:

 

MTO

I disagree. LucasArts BoB game and SWOTL allowed you to name your crews and pilots. Supposedly, as they gained experience they became better at their job. I guess I couldn't really say but it did make me feel like I'd actually suffered a loss when one went down. I don't have that in BoS. 

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Beaufighter and Beaufort played quite important role in the Pacific. And they just look so cool.

 

Trivia time: Jason made the Beaufighter model for Pacific Fighters. :)

Edited by LukeFF
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Actually, it was used practically everywhere the Japanese fought, with its first appearance being in the Philippines. 

Not according to my sources;

- 256th Kokutai operated them in China (Shanghai and partially Hong Kong).

- 301, 302, 332, 352, 1001, 1081, Genzan, Tainan, Takao and Yokosuka Kokutais used them in air defense of Homeland.

- 381st Kokutai operated them in Borneo, Celebes, Philippines and eventually in Singapore.

- Chushi Kokutai also operated its Raidens in China.

 

And actually the first combat victory was achieved over Balikpapan when Chui Keishichiro Hattori intercepted and shot down Liberator.

 

 

Trivia time: Jason made the Beaufighter model for Pacific Fighters. :)

Didn't know that. That's actually cool. Maybe he could make one here :P

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