Autopilot and AI

[spherehead]

Brief description: ai on wingmen not working properly on takeoff
Detailed description, conditions: I am flying BON, Spitfire IX in career mode. I have attempted 4 different careers and bailed on each because instead of getting a clearance to take off at the beginning of the mission, I get clearance to taxi instead. This causes the flight leader to taxi off the runway, circle around behind the flight, then crash into the last plane of the flight. The leadership of the flight then passes to the next plane, which commences to do the same thing. When I fly as leader, I get the taxi clearance instead of the takeoff order. If I just take off anyway, I will get the takeoff order 3/4 way through my takeoff run . Some of the wingmen will follow me but one will usually do that same taxi maneuver of taxiing off the runway, circling behind the flight, and then crash into another plane waiting to take off. If there is no plane in its way, it will then get take off clearance. This process requires me to circle the airfield until the flight is together, which causes me to run out of gas on the return journey and ditch. I dont think this is how she should be working. My Stalingrad career nor my Kuban one has done this, this bug seems to effect the Normandy career. 
Additional assets (videos, screenshots, logs):
Your PC config data (OS, drivers, specific software):  AMD Ryzen 7 3800X 8-Core Processor  3.89 GHz         32.0 GB ram       NVidia  GeForce RTX 2070 Super   windows10, fully updated, Logitech Extreme 3d pro joystick

[LTPYTHON]

Brief description: Flying Circus German AI wingmen don't know how to land

Detailed description: In my pilot career in the 1917 setting, my AI Albatross wingmen never land after completing a mission, they just endlessly circle the airfield. The first AI in line to land will line up with the airfield and begin his landing approach, only to throttle up and go around. There are no enemy aircraft in the area and no obstacles on the airfield that would prevent them from landing.

 

[Yogiflight]

Brief description: Too low speed during climbing and waiting for squadmates

Detailed description: In my Bf 109 E7 career on the Moscow map I noticed that the AI climbs to the mission altitude after takeoff with 0.8ata (43% power) at a speed of 230km/h. With the same speed the flightleader waits for missing members of the flight, which is pretty dangerous, when he waits for the flight to form up after the bombing of a target or an airfight over enemy territory, as it makes the waiting an easy target for enemy AAA and fighters. For all aircrafts which can fly more than 400km/h the speed for waiting for flight members should be more 300km/h, if not higher.

[JG4_Moltke1871]

missionReport(2023-05-27_21-15-20).zip

 

In my last missions Gothas crash to death when  arrive at the airfield (RTB)

[AcidBath]

Well, now that FC 2 is a firm reality and FC 3 is on its way, I feel compelled to yet complain again about the AI behavior of the Airco DH.4.  More that a year ago I posted a report that its AI behaves like a Sopwith Camel when encountering enemy aircraft, rather than the bomber for which it's known and identified as, for it'll immediately drop its bomb payload and engage in an aggressive turnfight with the enemy.  Here's my prior posting pointing out this problem.  And while I'm at it, the behavior of all the AI FC aircraft is rather dreadful, in that when they (bother to actually) attack other aircraft, they will fly about like gnats before attempting an attack.  Comparatively, attacking BoX AI usually will quickly snuff out any aircraft that isn't doing its immediate best to defend itself.

 

BTW, it's OK if I got something wrong about the role of the DH.4 so please let me know if so.  For the time being, in my multiplayer missions all DH.4 AI aircraft are grounded and its missions are flown by the Bréguet 14 who's AI knows how to properly fly its mission. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by AcidBath

[Charon]

Brief description: Ground Attackers self-preservation needs tuning
Detailed description, conditions: Fighter AI is okay, but attackers often ignore threats too long.

 

With some testing, it seems like higher skill AI is more willing to defend itself, while 'Low' AI will almost always ignore threats. But even Ace AI will sometimes just fly straight and level while under attack. All in all I see this suicidal behavior much more than I want.

 

And that's exactly what we see here: this is adapted from an AQMB mission (I made it single-player, bumped the AI to 'Ace' and deleted other planes in the area, to ensure a reproducible test environment). The 190s are flying an 'Attack Area: Ground Targets' command with medium priority. Sometimes the 190s drop bombs and break to engage me, but in this test they declined to deviate from their attack. I don't think it's just a failure to spot me, because they don't deviate even when I shot one and then deliberately fly directly in front of the whole flight. (I didn't shoot to kill here, because killing one would have triggered the emergency RTB mission logic).

 

This sort of behavior maybe makes sense for planes with defensive guns, but it's jarring when fighter-bombers approach a target (at not especially high speed) like this, and it usually just results in them getting shot down in droves.

 

It seems you already have logic for them to defend themselves, and I think that just needs tuning. 'Low' AI can maybe stay as is, but Medium should probably show the self-preservation of the current 'Ace', and 'High' and 'Ace' just shouldn't disregard a threat they're aware of.

 

Additional assets (videos, screenshots, logs):

 

 

Mission and Track files: https://user.fm/files/v2-38b2933a2509a257cacc5bf9cd845807/ground-attack-ai.zip

Your PC config data (OS, drivers, specific software):

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by I./JG3_Charon

[Yogiflight]

1. When I started my Hs 129 Stalingrad career a few weeks ago, my squadmates were flying evasive maneuvers as soon as enemy fighters came near. This changed at some point and now they don't fly any evasive maneuvers at all, even when directly attacked. They stay flying straight in formation until they get shot down or turn away heavily damaged.

 2. When I fly an artillery position attack mission with the Hs 129, we strafe the artillery guns after we dropped our bombs. When I fly an escort mission for Bf 109 E7s, they, too, strafe the artillery guns after they dropped their bombs. When I was flying an artillery position attack mission in my Bf 109 E7 Staligrad career, we dropped our bombs and RTBed, no strafing.

[LukeFF]

1 minute ago, Yogiflight said:

1. When I started my Hs 129 Stalingrad career a few weeks ago, my squadmates were flying evasive maneuvers as soon as enemy fighters came near. This changed at some point and now they don't fly any evasive maneuvers at all, even when directly attacked. They stay flying straight in formation until they get shot down or turn away heavily damaged.

 2. When I fly an artillery position attack mission with the Hs 129, we strafe the artillery guns after we dropped our bombs. When I fly an escort mission for Bf 109 E7s, they, too, strafe the artillery guns after they dropped their bombs. When I was flying an artillery position attack mission in my Bf 109 E7 Staligrad career, we dropped our bombs and RTBed, no strafing.

 

I went ahead and passed along the message, but it would also help if you could attach mission file(s) showing the problem.

[czech693]

On 6/11/2023 at 2:02 PM, AcidBath said:

Well, now that FC 2 is a firm reality and FC 3 is on its way, I feel compelled to yet complain again about the AI behavior of the Airco DH.4.  More that a year ago I posted a report that its AI behaves like a Sopwith Camel when encountering enemy aircraft, rather than the bomber for which it's known and identified as, for it'll immediately drop its bomb payload and engage in an aggressive turnfight with the enemy.  Here's my prior posting pointing out this problem.  And while I'm at it, the behavior of all the AI FC aircraft is rather dreadful, in that when they (bother to actually) attack other aircraft, they will fly about like gnats before attempting an attack.  Comparatively, attacking BoX AI usually will quickly snuff out any aircraft that isn't doing its immediate best to defend itself.

 

BTW, it's OK if I got something wrong about the role of the DH.4 so please let me know if so.  For the time being, in my multiplayer missions all DH.4 AI aircraft are grounded and its missions are flown by the Bréguet 14 who's AI knows how to properly fly its mission. 

Yep, see my post about the DH4 fighter style tactics.

 

 

[Yogiflight]

On 8/24/2023 at 10:27 PM, LukeFF said:

but it would also help if you could attach mission file(s) showing the problem.

the mission files for the second issue, this time a supply convoy attack with the Bf 109 E7, again, just bombing. With the Hs 129 the AI even strafes tank convoys.

Bf 109 E7 supply convoy attack.zip

 

I'll post mission files of the first issue when it happens next time

[Flying_Anchor]

Brief description: you forgot to put AI into the boxes.
Detailed description, conditions: TC AI hasnt had pathfinding AI for years and TC is still be unplayable.
Additional assets (videos, screenshots, logs):
Your PC config data (OS, drivers, specific software): any kind.

P.S. There're 5 tanks sunk in the river.

P.P.S. Alreaady 6.

[Yogiflight]

The AI still crashes into the hills southeast of the Anapa airfield, when trying to land from that direction, because they fly stupidly low airfield approaches.

The other two crashed aircrafts were Hs 129s of my flight. Youl lose your flightleader in every mission, your flight has to land in that direction, and often a second one, who tries to land directly after the flightleader has crashed, like in this mission.

Low airfield approach crashes.zip

 

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

The AI still crashes into the hills southeast of the Anapa airfield, when trying to land from that direction, because they fly stupidly low airfield approaches.

The other two crashed aircrafts were Hs 129s of my flight. Youl lose your flightleader in every mission, your flight has to land in that direction, and often a second one, who tries to land directly after the flightleader has crashed, like in this mission.

Low airfield approach crashes.zip 619.38 kB · 0 downloads

 

 

Thanks, I'll forward this to our QA people. 

[easterling77]

12 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

The AI still crashes into the hills southeast of the Anapa airfield, when trying to land from that direction, because they fly stupidly low airfield approaches.

The other two crashed aircrafts were Hs 129s of my flight. Youl lose your flightleader in every mission, your flight has to land in that direction, and often a second one, who tries to land directly after the flightleader has crashed, like in this mission.

Low airfield approach crashes.zip 619.38 kB · 0 downloads

 

Thank you @Yogiflight I noticed this recently with my FW190 career from Anapa again but forgot to save the mission file to report here.

 

Can confirm it's quite frustrating to complete missions and than loosing wingmen to such unnecessary complications.

[Yogiflight]

10 hours ago, easterling77 said:

Thank you @Yogiflight I noticed this recently with my FW190 career from Anapa again but forgot to save the mission file to report here.

 

Can confirm it's quite frustrating to complete missions and than loosing wingmen to such unnecessary complications.

As you can see, I made a bug report about that issue quite a while ago, but didn't get any reaction from the team

 

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Posted February 10

I just wanted to report the same issue as @Ram399

On 2/8/2023 at 11:47 PM, Ram399 said:

Brief description: AI Aircraft Crash in Landing Pattern

In my FW 190 A5 career, my squadmates constantly crash into the mountains southeast of Anapa airfield, when turning to final aproach in northwestern landing direction

FW 190s crashing into mountains.zip 658.04 kB · 0 downloads

 

• Ram399
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Wow, that looks really strange

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Yogiflight

[easterling77]

hm....maybe they'll look at it now....one can hope

Edited November 3, 2023 by easterling77

[Sp33db0lt]

Brief description: General bomber and attacker intercept mission issue when close to own airfield

Detailed description, conditions: If at least one bomber or attacker got succesfully intercepted by your flight at a position somewhat close to your airfield the flight leader (doesn´t matter if AI or player) and/or single members of your flight instantly stop the intercept by returning to base. The rest of the bombers or attackers keep on going for their target and the covering enemy fighters have an easy time shooting down your not reacting flight members. It has nothing to do with the amount of ammo and fuel left or if your wingmen got damaged or not. In these cases the problem is always the fact that your flight is too close to your own airfield when a bomber or attacker got intercepted.

 

Additional assets (videos, screenshots, logs): I attached a mission file for an example of this issue occuring on a bomber intercept mission on the stalingrad career with the I. JG3 based at Pitomnik. But the issue occures in every career with every intercept mission where the enemy passes or gets close to your own base.

_gen.Mission.txt

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Sp33db0lt said:

Brief description: General bomber and attacker intercept mission issue when close to own airfield

Detailed description, conditions: If at least one bomber or attacker got succesfully intercepted by your flight at a position somewhat close to your airfield the flight leader (doesn´t matter if AI or player) and/or single members of your flight instantly stop the intercept by returning to base. The rest of the bombers or attackers keep on going for their target and the covering enemy fighters have an easy time shooting down your not reacting flight members. It has nothing to do with the amount of ammo and fuel left or if your wingmen got damaged or not. In these cases the problem is always the fact that your flight is too close to your own airfield when a bomber or attacker got intercepted.

 

Additional assets (videos, screenshots, logs): I attached a mission file for an example of this issue occuring on a bomber intercept mission on the stalingrad career with the I. JG3 based at Pitomnik. But the issue occures in every career with every intercept mission where the enemy passes or gets close to your own base.

_gen.Mission.txt 4.49 MB · 0 downloads

 

Thanks, I'll let them know.

[Sp33db0lt]

Brief description: Issue with behaviour of wingmen on escort missions.

 

Detailed description, conditions: On escort missions your wingmen don´t commit properly to a fight with the attacking enemy fighters when they´re too far away from the  friendly bombers or attackers you have to protect. Your wingmen constantly switch between "engaging the enemy" and "race after the friendly bombers or attackers" what results in most cases in not shooting the enemy at all while the enemy has an easy time shooting down your flight.

 

Additional assets (videos, screenshots, logs): I attached the the mission file below. Again I flew the escort mission with the I. JG3 based at Pitomnik but it seems like that the issue appears with every mission (more or less) no matter which career / unit / aircraft.

_gen.Mission.txt

[Sp33db0lt]

So do all these career ruining bugs get fixed anytime soon? Because i am not interested in multiplayer and the career mode is really not worth playing in my honest opinion due to the lack of immersion which is caused by all of the already in this thread reported bugs there is sadly no reason for me to play this game anymore.

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, Sp33db0lt said:

So do all these career ruining bugs get fixed anytime soon? Because i am not interested in multiplayer and the career mode is really not worth playing in my honest opinion due to the lack of immersion which is caused by all of the already in this thread reported bugs there is sadly no reason for me to play this game anymore.

 

Yes, they do, but they take time to get fixed.

[Sp33db0lt]

Would it help to make the progress of fixing this stuff faster if i continue reporting these bugs and problems of different missions on and on or is one example like already listed enough information for the devs? I have no problem in doing so because i really would love to see this fixed so i can enjoy playing career mode and the game in general again like many other players i guess.

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, Sp33db0lt said:

Would it help to make the progress of fixing this stuff faster if i continue reporting these bugs and problems of different missions on and on or is one example like already listed enough information for the devs? I have no problem in doing so because i really would love to see this fixed so i can enjoy playing career mode and the game in general again like many other players i guess.

 

It's generally more beneficial to continue reporting these issues here, just so the developers can better ensure they aren't missing an important piece of information.

[BB-Madman]

Brief description: AI escort fighters keep crashing into each other.

 

Detailed description, conditions: American P51 campaign, Normandy map, bomber escort missions. Right around bomb drop (usually just after), most (if not all) of the AI fighter escorts will gravitate to the same altitude and weave back and forth until the inevitable crashes occur.

 

This behavior (from my somewhat limited observations) only seems to occur if there is no contact with enemy air opposition. I've seen 2 cases (different campaigns) with enemy contact (planes shot down), when all escorts got home.

 

This behavior also seems to have just started recently. Maybe something got twisted in the last patch?

 

We had 3 bomber escort missions in the first 2 days of a new campaign. We lost 11 pilots/planes out of 23 that started the missions. All were due to collisions.

 

I can post screenshots of the carnage if needed.

 

Thank you.

[LukeFF]

On 12/17/2023 at 9:33 AM, BB-Madman said:

Brief description: AI escort fighters keep crashing into each other.

 

Detailed description, conditions: American P51 campaign, Normandy map, bomber escort missions. Right around bomb drop (usually just after), most (if not all) of the AI fighter escorts will gravitate to the same altitude and weave back and forth until the inevitable crashes occur.

 

This behavior (from my somewhat limited observations) only seems to occur if there is no contact with enemy air opposition. I've seen 2 cases (different campaigns) with enemy contact (planes shot down), when all escorts got home.

 

This behavior also seems to have just started recently. Maybe something got twisted in the last patch?

 

We had 3 bomber escort missions in the first 2 days of a new campaign. We lost 11 pilots/planes out of 23 that started the missions. All were due to collisions.

 

I can post screenshots of the carnage if needed.

 

Thank you.

 

Hi, if you have the mission file from this sortie, that would be best. Thanks!

[BB-Madman]

Hi, Where will I find this file? Thanks.

[LukeFF]

15 hours ago, BB-Madman said:

Hi, Where will I find this file? Thanks.

 

It's _gen.mission in the /data/missions folder. It's overwritten every time a new mission is generated, so it's important to save the file first.

[BB-Madman]

Damn, I've flown since then so it's already overwritten.

 

When/If it happens again, I'll save and try to get it posted here.

 

Thanks.

[BB-Madman]

That didn't take long. File is too big (26.5mb) to upload here. It's available here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kC4--Bw69AAQ_ZT0vQXWVeNra5npkpoI/view?usp=sharing

 

This is from a brand new campaign (American P51, Normandy). 5 of 8 escort fighters were lost in collisions. Thank you.

Edited December 20, 2023 by BB-Madman

[LukeFF]

Thank you!

[BB-Madman]

You're welcome....hope it helps.

[BB-Madman]

Here's another one. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A2MQIuBNrQ-REbgP4Is2-P3Q5pDRrAZd/view?usp=drive_link

 

British Typhoon campaign, Normandy map.

 

We (8 Typhoons escorted by 6 Spitfire IX's) tasked with attacking a railroad junction in France. Over The Channel on the way home, 3 Spitfire lost due to collisions. 1 actually survived the collision (with serious rudder damage) and continued the flight.

 

Not the same type of mission (bomber escort) but still an issue with escorting fighters.

 

2 observations that may (or may not) be relevant: 1. Could a missing flight leader have any bearing on this? I've noticed that the flight leader of the escorting fighters will sometimes "lose interest" in the mission at hand. He'll start slowly circling in a small area while the mission continues on without him. He may (or may not) rejoin the mission later. 2. Could flying distance be involved? I've got 2 other campaigns (109/ Moscow & Yak/Kuban) that haven't shown any signs of this, but the missions on those maps seem to be quite a bit shorter.

 

Thank you.

 

[BB-Madman]

Another. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c0PkKZHcUWSH4i0zv4T43NWKRNWAve-G/view?usp=drive_link

 

Yak campaign, Kuban map, bomber escort.

 

Escort fighter flight leader went AWOL. No enemy contact. On the flight home after bomb drop, 3 escorts clump together then crash into each other. A few minutes later, 3 more escorts repeat the process. Here's what they looked like right before the crash. Flight leader showed up shortly afterwards.

 

[BB-Madman]

An observation regarding the missing flight leader: If he stays with the flight for the whole mission everything seems to work as intended. When he goes missing, bad things usually happen. He often seems to go missing if one of his flight goes "missing". Sometimes 1 or 2 of the escorts will make a really wide turn and end up way behind the bomber formation. When this happens, the flight leader will usually go racing back to find the "missing" plane(s). Once he's far enough from the bomber formation, maybe he falls into a conflict loop between escorting the bombers and searching for his "missing" mates and ends up doing neither. He stops and circles. After bombs away, some of the remaining escorts decide to have a pissing contest over who gets to be flight leader. They drop down from their assigned altitudes to the lowest position above the bombers.....where the fight leader would be. Then they all try to occupy the same piece of sky. After the first crash, I believe that the real flight leader may return to the flight (still have to confirm this). Maybe he gets a message of his flight sustaining losses and he heads that way.

 

Hell, I don't know....maybe just an old man rambling. 

[BB-Madman]

And another: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1URb5CJZ8Eq2CEi9MLwZrCXXg1PCcbwZr/view?usp=sharing

 

Yak campaign, Kuban, Bomber Escort

Very early in the mission, 2 of the escorts made that big looping turn and fell behind. Flight leader heads back, finds them, loses bombers, then circles. The 2 "missing" escorts had no problem catching the bombers.....the flight leader circled. Well before reaching the target area (maybe because the flight leader went missing so early), 3 of the escort fighters start doing "The Dance of Death". Right about this time the flight leader stops circling and heads straight towards the bomber formation. Soon the dancers are rewarded(?) with their first collision (2 down). I'm cruising about 1,000 ft. above and about half a mile off to the side watching the insanity unfold. The remaining 3 escorts drop down and join the dance. Crash! 2 more down. Bombers hit their target and turn for home. Crash! 2 more fighters down. My flight leader finally got back and weaved protectively over the bombers all the way home.

 

The Germans were a no show.....and we still lost 6.

 

Should I keep posting these as I run into them?

[LukeFF]

17 hours ago, BB-Madman said:

Should I keep posting these as I run into them?

 

Yes, please do. I pass along all these reports to our QA team.

[BB-Madman]

5 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, please do. I pass along all these reports to our QA team.

 

Then here's another one: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1l4ygSrGTMVDA0jNHTMdr4JACQu5YWwck/view?usp=sharing

 

American Mustang campaign, Normandy, Bomber Escort

 

This one is very similar to the last.

 

Very early in the mission, 4 of the escorts made that big looping turn and fell behind. Flight leader heads back, finds them, then circles. The bombers were still relatively close, but he started circling. The 4 "missing" escorts had no problem catching the bombers.....the flight leader circled. We were crossing the French coast and he was still circling over the English coast. After crossing the coast, 6 of the escort fighters start doing "The Dance of Death". 2 collisions before the target, and 1 right after we turned for home and 6 escorts are down. My flight leader finally got back and weaved protectively over the bombers all the way home. 

The Germans were a no show again.....and we still lost 6.....again.

 

[BB-Madman]

More rambling.....

In 1 of those last 2 problem missions (don't remember for sure which 1), the conversation with ground control had a reference to me being the flight leader. My flight leader still had the chevrons, but ground control didn't seem to agree.

 

If George (auto-pilot) is flying my plane when the escorts drop altitude for "The Dance", my plane will drop and join in as well.

 

In 1 of the missions (after the 6 escorts had crashed), I put it on auto-pilot and my plane immediately dropped down to the lowest escort altitude over the bombers. Shortly after, when my flight leader arrived, he took position above me and stayed there for the rest of the flight. He still had the chevrons, but I was the flight leader.

 

When a flight leader gets damaged or runs out of ammo and heads for home, the chevrons and command pass to the next in line. Is a message somehow getting sent to all remaining members of the flight that they are all the new flight leader? Then they all crashed....except me. I became the flight leader because I was the last man standing.

 

Could the chain of command gone haywire be causing any of this? 
 

[Yogiflight]

A few updates ago the developers made the AI to not jettison their bombs immediately, when enemy fighters come close and it worked really good. The AI in the Bf 110s kept their bombs and stayed on route to the target. This changed some time later to the way that AI still keep their bombs, but again start to engage enemy fighters, which is of course the most wrong thing to do with an aircraft, which is slower and less maneuverable than single engine fighters and which has still about 1000 litres of fuel, additional armor and 500kg (or in the bridge bombing mission yesterday 1000kg) of bombs at the bomb racks.

I posted it before, with the argumentation of the developers, the Bf 110 E2 was a pure ground attack version and therefore had the engines of the Bf 109 E7 instead of the engines of the Bf 109 F2, the Bf 110 E1 was equipped with, the AI should be flying it like they fly the two seater IL-2 and not like a bomb carrying fighter aircraft.

[LukeFF]

59 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

A few updates ago the developers made the AI to not jettison their bombs immediately, when enemy fighters come close and it worked really good. The AI in the Bf 110s kept their bombs and stayed on route to the target. This changed some time later to the way that AI still keep their bombs, but again start to engage enemy fighters, which is of course the most wrong thing to do with an aircraft, which is slower and less maneuverable than single engine fighters and which has still about 1000 litres of fuel, additional armor and 500kg (or in the bridge bombing mission yesterday 1000kg) of bombs at the bomb racks.

 

Yes, it's been reported internally as an issue.