Combat AI timer?

[clod65]

Hi Guys,

 

This may have been asked before, or information on the net about it, I just uploaded a dogfight and the AI disengage after about 5 minutes

has anyone thought that maybe a timer in the code that causes this? 

Has team fusion found how to extend the combat time?

 

 

[Mysticpuma]

Worth reading these in-depth threads involving @paul_leonard who has identified this as an issue and reported it back to the team. Whether they will address it or not, depends if they start considering AI and Single Player content as important as the priority Multiplayer they focus on, but Paul is fighting our corner.

 

 

 

 

 

Particularly this important reply by Paul:

 

[clod65]

@MysticpumaThanks for that, I read some of that before, pretty much all of it, that answers my question then.

7 minutes of combat is better than nothing, I threw as many planes on one spawn point which was 6 x bf109e1s, I can create another spawn point in fmb

and add another 6, now that would be an interesting fight against 1. If you are able to knock one down from 12 in that time of 7 minutes without being knocked out

that would be an achievement.

I noticed to when i do get taken out like in one of the videos that i parachuted after being hit, and get back into the same multiplayer session, the 109s don't react to being shot at. I see that has already been mentioned.

It is interesting on how the ai has been programmed. 

Edited October 30 by clod65

[Dagwoodyt]

From the 2024 "Year in Review"

 

This looks like TFS-speak for "not gonna happen". The combat "timer" and subsequent AI descent into "target drone" mode make 1v1 fights extremely unsatisfying. If there were serious interest in SP those issues would have been assigned top priority status ten years ago. TBF though, any serious attempt to change AI behavior for the better might collapse the whole house of cards. So there's that.🥴

[paul_leonard]

There are potential workarounds (maybe better described as kludges) that I employ as I build my BoB missions.  Yes, sometimes I get very frustrated with the limitations in the sim, but like any movie maker, they work with the tools/budget at hand to create the illusion of reality, just don’t look behind the curtain… and with the tech available at the time.  I sometimes feel sorry for the last guy to make a sci-fi movie before Star Wars premiered.
 

Most of the historical BoB encounters were many on many, not 1v1 or even 6v6.  In fact most were many RAF squadrons/flights versus many Luftwaffe Staffeln/Schwarms.  When I feed in units over time, usually based on historical records, I find that most of my combats will last 15-20 minutes or longer (much closer to historical outcomes).  Yes, early arriving units are leaving (given mystery time limit) but the new entrants mean the combat continues.  I’ve also written elsewhere about how to set landing waypoints to get leaving AI to “bug out” instead of “drone out”. As you the player are the only participant not subject to a timer (just don’t call me late for dinner) there is lots of action to go around. 

This can all be done using the FMB, with either the canned triggers, or more easily done by just have some units start farther away or at a different altitude.  The timer doesn’t seem to start until an AI has commenced combat.  Sadly, I don’t think the Single mission options allow for any of this (I don’t know as I’ve never really looked at that).  However, I have posted elsewhere about how to get started with the FMB.  So if you are interested….

 

 

 

Edited October 30 by paul_leonard

[Dagwoodyt]

If I watch the video featured in this thread I cannot help but wonder why all those 109's seem to mill about pretty aimlessly much of the time. Maybe it's to do with skill level assignments, but it looks super odd. That Spitfire seems to carry a lot of ammo too, throttle walled much of the time, rad at 100% and sight doesn't look to be set to relevant AC distance/wingspan so I'm wondering what Realism settings were used. In any case the video pretty much showcases the issues that make such missions very unrewarding whether while in mission or in replay. In my experience the AI doesn't seem to necessarily be bound by the same limitations as human pilots, so there's also that  to contend with. It's like the player always needs to make up for things that have been lacking since forever. What's most vexing is the likelihood that it will always be so. VR cannot fix this, but without VR there is little incentive for me to even start CloD up any more.

[clod65]

It's fine guys, I was just asking, I enjoy the sim regardless, it's still the best in my opinion.

must remember how much developers achieved in 6years of making the sim. There's two aspects that I like about it

1. You can create your own missions via the FMB

2. And run those missions on local area network dedicated server (I'm old school love lan)

 

Look for the positives, rather than the negatives, look what we got

Graphically it's great and there's good features built in

 

oh I had unlimited ammo set only, I didn't play around with the site settings in cockpit.

@Dagwoodyt watch this one I uploaded before the one above, they weren't milling around, they took me out:-

 

 

Edited October 30 by clod65

[Dagwoodyt]

Maybe displaying Realism settings prior to mission start might be helpful to viewers:

 

[clod65]

@Dagwoodyt these are the settings for the server:-

 

 

ill test again by selecting/deselecting all in realism options.

Edited October 31 by clod65

[clod65]

yeh didn't make much difference to ai behavior

[Dagwoodyt]

TBH I don't see much value for viewers in watching videos where the player turns a "simulator" into an FPS. That's my rationale for showing Realism settings at outset.

[BENKOE]

Allow me a brief remark at this point:
“Wind and Turbulence on/off” doesn’t work in the current Blitz version, nor in Desert Wings.

 

[FTC_Rostic]

1 hour ago, BENKOE said:

Allow me a brief remark at this point:
“Wind and Turbulence on/off” doesn’t work in the current Blitz version, nor in Desert Wings.

 

 

Do you mean there is no way to turn it off??? Wind is definitely working. Turbulence effect is there too. Happening when player fly through border of two different wind layers. Though that effect implementation is terrible. Feels like a glitch to rudder pedals input.

[FTC_Rostic]

 

9 hours ago, clod65 said:

...these are the settings for the server:

Remove check box from "Anthropomorphic Control" not adding anything to immersion but may cause a lot of glitches in attempt to control your aircraft (it ignores input if delay between some input commands is too short).

Edited October 31 by FTC_Rostic

[Dagwoodyt]

This AI cheat is the "deal breaker" for me with CloD:

 

 

Sure, I can eventually catch up with an AI 109 when I fly a Spitfire 1A (100 Oct.), but by then the AI is in "drone" mode so a pointless time waste.

 

I made a mission that demonstrates the "fun":

Spit 1A 100 Oct v 109E4No Tracer 08192025.zip

 

 

[clod65]

I just have one spawn point which I use for spitfire

And i created aircraft to fight against bf109, it will attack for few minutes but then

when i take chase and try to shoot it down, it dodges me really well.

I selected ace level for the bf109, next video i'll post it here.

Again im only using the older version of clod

 

note the video's above were both spawn points i.e spit vs bf109

Edited November 2 by clod65

[FTC_Rostic]

8 minutes ago, clod65 said:

I just have one spawn point which I use for spitfire

And i created aircraft to fight against bf109, it will attack for few minutes but then

when i take chase and try to shoot it down, it dodges me really well.

I selected ace level for the bf109, next video i'll post it here.

Again im only using the older version of clod

 

note the video's above were both spawn points i.e spit vs bf109

 

Well, I guess you already read that: 

Here is AI skills preset I use as starting point.

 

FIGHTER

 

BOMBER

 

[clod65]

Ok here it shows that the bf110 C-7 frantically tries to get away from being shot at, this went on for sometime 10minutes, infact it could go on forever if i didn't shoot it down.

I did get shot at from the rear gunner of bf110 the whole time. 

This is a multiplayer scenario I created in the FMB, I also created two aircraft points in the FMB.

and changed the bf110 to ACE level.

The grey clouds are worse with the icing effect, it does have an effect on the engine.

 

 

 

 

[clod65]

It is odd because when I had just the aircraft spawn points, the ai controlled aircraft would not take evasive action from being hit after the 5 minute combat time.

I'll do some further testing, and report back.

The thing I will try is just have two aircraft spawn points, jump from one aircraft to the other then back again, and see if the evasive action happens.

 

Yep I just tried it, it would seem that after switching planes from spit to bf110 then back to spit, the bf110 does evade.

This should also occur with any other plane like the bf109. I hit 'a' on aircraft before switching 

 

Edited November 2 by clod65

[Dagwoodyt]

How is this news?

[paul_leonard]

How is it not?  Someone else is looking at AI behaviour through a different lens.  

[Dagwoodyt]

3 hours ago, paul_leonard said:

How is it not?  Someone else is looking at AI behaviour through a different lens.  

I am just searching for method here. What are the lessons being taught to viewers in these videos? So far as I am to understand, the version of CloD being used relates to a personal color scheme preference. Is there any other rationale for using that pre-Blitz Cliffs version? If AI behavior is materially different between current and featured CloD variant, how so?

[clod65]

You can try this with blitz version, ill test this to, create 2 aircraft spawn points red and blue.

if you are red, crash the plane or get shot down on purpose, get back in the session.

shoot near the enemy plane, does it evade. yes/no

switch planes, back to the plane you are flying, does it evade then.

 

Or let the enemy plane go into drone mode after combat. when you fire near it, does it evade?

If not switch planes and see if it does evade then.

 

I'm just observing things, just curiosity

Edited November 2 by clod65

[Dagwoodyt]

19 minutes ago, clod65 said:

You can try this with blitz version, ill test this to, create 2 aircraft spawn points red and blue.

if you are red, crash the plane or get shot down on purpose, get back in the session.

shoot near the enemy plane, does it evade. yes/no

switch planes, back to the plane you are flying, does it evade then.

 

Or let the enemy plane go into drone mode after combat. when you fire near it, does it evade?

If not switch planes and see if it does evade then.

 

I'm just observing things, just curiosity

You could continue to accumulate observations, then report any conclusions and recommendations for discussion. 

[MoeFactors]

I've noticed that after the AI exhausts all its ammunition, it becomes highly prone to entering "drone mode."

Reducing the Advanced Flight Skill (below 0.6) can effectively decrease the AI's frequent barrel roll maneuvers.
Lowering the Situational Awareness Skill (below 0.5) can significantly reduce the AI's instant evasion capability.

Additionally, I suspect that the AI only reacts to the first detected flight group. Once all the initially detected hostile aircraft are destroyed, it quickly enters drone mode, regardless of whether there are other flight groups attacking from behind, and only performs defensive maneuvers.

Edited November 3 by MoeFactors

[clod65]

The spawn aircraft don't have any skill level to set, I just keeping it simple right now with just 2 spawn aircraft:-

-red:- spitfire2a

-blue:- bf109

 

[clod65]

I think waypoints is the key with the enemy planes, I created a map using Trigger/Action with 'passthrough' feature, per below, where the static balloons are when i go through there it will spawn bf109, I created 4 waypoints for bf109 and the fight lasted longer. I think Paul mentioned this already.

 

 

 

 

Not sure what the Target inbetweening does, i just checked all 3 boxes

Edited November 3 by clod65

[paul_leonard]

11 hours ago, MoeFactors said:

I've noticed that after the AI exhausts all its ammunition, it becomes highly prone to entering "drone mode."

Reducing the Advanced Flight Skill (below 0.6) can effectively decrease the AI's frequent barrel roll maneuvers.
Lowering the Situational Awareness Skill (below 0.5) can significantly reduce the AI's instant evasion capability.

Additionally, I suspect that the AI only reacts to the first detected flight group. Once all the initially detected hostile aircraft are destroyed, it quickly enters drone mode, regardless of whether there are other flight groups attacking from behind, and only performs defensive maneuvers.

Adjusting AI settings has an impact on combat behaviour but as I’ve posted elsewhere in these forums at about the 7:30 mark AI will break off and head home regardless of ammo/fuel supply.  That remains a frustration to 1v1 single player experience.  Not such a big deal in large encounters but certainly in small encounters.

 

Clod65 observations are very interesting especially in light of the version he is using.  Did something change in Blitz?  If so, then perhaps it could be changed back?

 

It’s not Target inbetweening, it’s Target something at a waypoint.  Inbetweening is a separate function ( notice the checkboxes are in a separate box) that allows one to automatically generate multiple waypoints between the current waypoint and the previous waypoint.  This is very handy if you want to manage how AI climb, but to me more importantly descend as they move from waypoint to waypoint.  AI attempt to change altitude to the next waypoint’s setting ASAP.  Descending can often lead to the classic barrel rolling bombers as they attempt to shed altitude but not exceeding set speed.  Setting multiple waypoints and interpolating speed results in more gradual and controllable AI behaviour. I can go on if anyone is interested.  I use it reasonably often.

Edited November 3 by paul_leonard

[clod65]

just uploaded the mission i created per my last post, if anyone wants to try it, 

try adding more waypoints in rectangle fashion, see if the bf109's dogfight lasts even longer....

trigger1.zip

 

Off course I am still using the old version of clod, but it may work in blitz version.

I will be away for couple of days but will check in to see any updates on this.

 

Yep i just tried it in blitz and dogfighting seems to last longer. 

Edited November 3 by clod65