How bad were the I.A.R. 80 variants?

[KodiakJac]

Did the I.A.R. 80 variants rarely survive their first combat sorties (excluding no contact sorties) during WWII?

 

In my career with Grupul 8 on the Stalingrad map with Power Balance set to Parity and Air Forces set to Medium, my wingmen rarely survive a mission.  All of my higher ranking pilots were killed in our first few missions, and most were replaced with lower rank pilots who all get killed in every mission.  I can't save them all, let alone survive myself.

 

Now my squad is comprised of mostly low rank pilots, which I guess equate to lower skill ratings.  And they all die.  Every time.  The only few who survive exit the fight early on with damage and sneak back to base.  Was the I.A.R. 80 that bad?  Were entire squadrons wiped out in their first few sorties?

 

Edited December 10, 2024 by KodiakJac

[Jaegermeister]

From what I have read, the Romanian pilots that did not get Bf109s flew the IAR-80 mostly on ground support and patrol duty. They survived by not being thrown at opposing fighters every mission. It is a difficult airplane to fly and I would imagine the maintenance was difficult so if they didn’t get damaged in combat, they were replaced or shipped back to Romania for home defense after the German offensives in Russian fell apart.
 

The only way I have managed to survive in it is to get above the enemy planes and dive on them while they are occupied shooting down my wingmen. That of course requires constant attention to the propeller rpm. The key is for them to spot the wingmen first so they don’t fixate on me only. After I get a few, run like hell, because it isn’t particularly fast either.

 

I’m sure others have more details about historical use, that’s just my Cliff notes from memory.

[GT-Katzenkorps]

At the last days of June 1944, Luftwaffe ground attack pilot Hermann Buchner had a demonstration dogfight with his FW 190 (probably F-8) against I.A.R 80, flown by Romanian fighter pilot lieutenant Flandero. In his autobiography "Stormbird"(excellent book, recommended), he describes it was pretty easy for him to get to 6 of Flandero. He says IAR turned better, but otherwise 190 was superior.

 

I have several shelf meters of WW2 history, mostly Luftwaffe, but haven't managed to find any proper book of Romanian pilots in WW2. If someone know one, let me know. Also Italian ones, especially (auto)biographies are welcome.

[LukeFF]

There are a few things going on here:

• The biggest is that by 1942 the IAR 80 was already being left behind, performance wise, when it came to the opposition it faced in the East. It did alright in 1941 against the older types like the I-16 and early Yaks, but a year later and everything was changing.
• In the fall of 1942 the Romanians didn't face nearly as many fighters at Stalingrad as career mode sometimes likes to generate. The mission types you are being given are correct for the time, but before the Soviet counteroffensives in November 1942 Soviet fighter aviation had pretty much been ground to dust on the Stalingrad front. So, I'd suggest setting up the parameters so your side has the numerical advantage, at least up til November 1942.

5 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

From what I have read, the Romanian pilots that did not get Bf109s flew the IAR-80 mostly on ground support and patrol duty.

 

Mostly true from what I've read over Kuban, yes, where they were assigned mostly to defend the coastal convoys. At Stalingrad, yes, they were assigned mostly to ground attack and bomber escort missions.

[easterling77]

8 hours ago, GasTeddy said:

At the last days of June 1944, Luftwaffe ground attack pilot Hermann Buchner had a demonstration dogfight with his FW 190 (probably F-8) against I.A.R 80, flown by Romanian fighter pilot lieutenant Flandero. In his autobiography "Stormbird"(excellent book, recommended), he describes it was pretty easy for him to get to 6 of Flandero. He says IAR turned better, but otherwise 190 was superior.

 

I have several shelf meters of WW2 history, mostly Luftwaffe, but haven't managed to find any proper book of Romanian pilots in WW2. If someone know one, let me know. Also Italian ones, especially (auto)biographies are welcome.

I was searching for a new book to read - thanks for your recommendation - will get it the next week.

[KodiakJac]

19 hours ago, Jaegermeister said:

The only way I have managed to survive in it is to get above the enemy planes and dive on them while they are occupied shooting down my wingmen. That of course requires constant attention to the propeller rpm. The key is for them to spot the wingmen first so they don’t fixate on me only. After I get a few, run like hell, because it isn’t particularly fast either.

 

That's exactly what I've been doing, to the letter!  But I've also been feeling guilty about it...lol

 

 

13 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

• In the fall of 1942 the Romanians didn't face nearly as many fighters at Stalingrad as career mode sometimes likes to generate. The mission types you are being given are correct for the time, but before the Soviet counteroffensives in November 1942 Soviet fighter aviation had pretty much been ground to dust on the Stalingrad front. So, I'd suggest setting up the parameters so your side has the numerical advantage, at least up til November 1942.

 

Thanks for that tip, Luke.  I'll give it a try, and won't feel guilty about it...at least up till November 

 

Edited December 11, 2024 by KodiakJac

[YR-AndreiTomescu]

To add to what @LukeFF said:

- The IAR 80 was, after Stalingrad disaster, redeployed mainly to home defense, facing mostly Liberators, Fortress-es, Lighting's and Mustangs.

They managed to shoot down bombers, faired pretty decent against Lightings, and were decimated by Mustangs. 

-The aircraft was quite outdated in '43-'44, but still fought till the very end, after changing sides, right to the end of '45.

- It had many flaws (poor engine at altitude, weak armament, slow speed and hard to manage all the manual controls) but was still successful due to very good turning, good roll and.....very good pilots. 😊

-if the romanian Bf 109's  used BoZ tactics, the IAR usually fired from below while turning

-clearly the pilots were frustrated by the poor performance and wished for a G4, but managed to use the airframe with great succes until Stalingrad, and acceptably afterwards.

-to make the best out of it: fly it more like a Spitfire with damage engine, and NOT like a Bf or Fw. 

-to get the real feel of a IAR, I strongly recommend the scripted campaign "The little brother"

[YR-AndreiTomescu]

Extract regarding kill/death ratio of IAR:

Quote

 

During the period that the aircraft saw combat, a little over three years, pilots flying the IAR-80/81 claimed an estimated 539 confirmed and 90 unconfirmed victories in the air and 168 confirmed victories against aircraft on the ground.  274 IAR-80/81 were lost during this time frame to combat, anti-aircraft fire and accidents.

 

IMHO the claimed air victories are a bit exagerated, as usual.

[Sandmarken]

In Crimea, the IAR 80s flew patrols over the maritime routes, flying from Sevastopol to Kerch. From the sources I found, they were mostly fighting A20s and other heavy Soviet aircraft with the range to hit those routes. They must have had some success, as the sources @AndreiTomescu helped me find indicate the Germans were happy with the Romanians but also not impressed with the IAR 80s' performance, asking them to fit bombs to the planes so they could attack Soviet seacraft instead of their defense duties. (The Romanians did not have IAR 81s with bomb capability until later in 1944 in this area).

[David_4555]

19 hours ago, AndreiTomescu said:

Extract regarding kill/death ratio of IAR:

IMHO the claimed air victories are a bit exagerated, as usual.

 

I guess it depends on what we consider as victories. The romanian victory system (as modified later in the war) doesn't consider 1 plane shot down = victory. If I remember correctly, a single engine plane is worth 1 victory, a two-engined plane is worth 2 victories, and a plane with more than 2 engines is worth 3 victories. So shooting down two B-17's above Bucharest in Summer 1944 would make you an ace.

[FlyinCoffin]

they were so bad they fall out of the sky.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

15 hours ago, David_4555 said:

I guess it depends on what we consider as victories. The romanian victory system (as modified later in the war) doesn't consider 1 plane shot down = victory. If I remember correctly, a single engine plane is worth 1 victory, a two-engined plane is worth 2 victories, and a plane with more than 2 engines is worth 3 victories. So shooting down two B-17's above Bucharest in Summer 1944 would make you an ace.

Isn't this essentially the same "points" system as the Luftwaffe used? I'm not sure it was used for ace designations or kill counts though; I always thought it was only used for awards?

 

3 hours ago, FlyinCoffin said:

they were so bad they fall out of the sky.

Alright, thanks for your useful and well-sourced feedback.

[YR-AndreiTomescu]

20 hours ago, FlyinCoffin said:

they were so bad they fall out of the sky.

That's quite a useless statement, and an really useless statement towards those young boys who fought and died very often against their desire.

Regarding the actual machine, I would strongly suggest to document before making such statemens/jokes. See, young jedi, on this forum/historic simulator most of us treat respectfully the man and the machines that wrote history, with same consideration regardless of their side. Thank you.

[FlyinCoffin]

It was just some stupid comment cause I was high.

 Iam sorry. Didnt wanted to hurt anyone feelings.

 

ye its all in all just spam. which could lead to time or perma ban if done often.

 

Sometimes that happens to me I say "stupid" things . but not that often. And what me really interest is why I like 2ww dogfighting so much because it is very cruel but lol I faced the madness. so its a bad joke afterall

Edited December 14, 2024 by FlyinCoffin

[YR-AndreiTomescu]

16 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Isn't this essentially the same "points" system as the Luftwaffe used? I'm not sure it was used for ace designations or kill counts though; I always thought it was only used for awards?

Almost. The "one engine,one point" system began only towards '44, to give more credit to those who managed to shoot down Liberators and Fortresses, despite strong defense and weak machines.

Before that was a one plane, one point system. 

Compared to the Luftwaffe, the romanias were a bit more .....loose in their claims, so for a kill to be recorded, it had to:

- have a witness from the air or from the ground, better both

-if the downed aircraft felt on friendly soil, it had to be photographed or a piece recovered. If on enemy soil,one or two witnesses would suffice

-the claim had to be accepted by a special bureau, who weighted witness testimony, and the credibility of those was taken into account. For example, a german ground crew was more reliable than a wingman. This process took weeks.

-after changing sides, most pilots tried hard to erase their victories against the allies, to avoid punishment by the soviets (some succeeded!) 

[Rudini]

@AEthelraedUnraed

the Luftwaffe didnt used the point system like romania did.

 

- Romania used it to quantify the achievements of those pilots shooting down well defendes bombers instead of R-5 or U-2 biplanes. so for example a romanian pilot could be considered an ace with shooting 2 bombers, racking up for 6 victories (3 victories per bomber)

 

- the germans counted only 1 kill/claim as a victory. But in Defence of the Reich the dayfighter pilots were frustrated because it seemed impossible to earn the Knights Cross. Luftwaffe dayfighters needed in 1943 up to 40 victories in the West and 70 in the East to get this award. Fughting daily agains Soviets or up to 5 times a month against Spitfires is okay earning the award. but it was Impossible to get all those kills with JG 1 or JG 11. for example JG 1 had in 1943 most contacts with bombers but the number was only 50 encounters. III./JG 3 far in the southern germany had only 6 encounters. Because facing only fourengined bombers in deadly combat box formations and almost no fighter engagement (doctrine to attack bombers when allied fighters turned back home). So by the end of the year, high command officers like Günter Lützow proposed a point system for Defence of the Reich awards:

for example shooting down a bomber is like 3 points, so you needed up to 18-20 four engined bomber kills to get 60 victories to earn a Knight Cross. Willi Unger or Klaus Neumann each had only 19-20 B-17/B-24 kills to get their Knight Cross.

 

but there was a second reason the point system was introduced: stopping the hunt for victories what worked well all the war but only against fighters. (look at the prolific Red Baron in ww1! he shot down almost no fighters, only twoseaters)

To manage the limited power of homdefence there was the idea of team work (it never worked well) proclaimed by Galland early in 1943. Already on the first day as the Kommodore of JG 1, 01.04.1943, Hans Philipp gave his pilots orders:

 

1. to attack with fighters the combat boxes frontally, not to shoot them down, it needed too much guts and experience. but to split the formation. = separated fourengined bombers were counted as Herausschuss (HSS = shoot out), giving 2 points.

2. then, inexperienced and new fighter groups, like III./JG 1, III./JG 11 or Zerstörer Gruppen from ZG 1, ZG 26, ZG 76 or even nightfighters, and even fighterschool teachers with their best students, had to finally destroy the straglers. a kill was not counted, but you got a final destruction (e.V. = endgültige Vernichtung) and 1 point.

3. only the full destruction of a fourengined bomber get you 3 points for a kill.

4. there is no HSS or e.V. for fighters or bombers with less than 4 engines.

 

for example:

 

Lt. Eduard Example, got his imaginary  killboard like this:

 

victory nr. / date / type / additional remark / points

 

1. 17.08.43 B-17 (3 points)

2. 17.08.43 B-17 HSS (2 points, only separation)

3. 06.09.43 B-17 (3 points)

- 01.10.43 B-17 e.V (1 point, final destruction)

4. 14.10.43 B-17 HSS (2 points)

5. 14.10.43 B-17 (3 points)

6. 19.12.43 B-17 (3 points)

7. 29.01.44 B-17 HSS (2 points)

8. 20.02.44 P-38 (1 point, its only a fighter)

9. 20.02.44 P-38 (1 point)

- 20.02.44 P-38 w.b (0 points, only damadged = wirksam beschossen)

- 20.02.44 B-24 e.V (1 point)

10. 25.02.44 B-17 HSS (2 points)

- 25.02.44 B-17 e.V. (1 point)

11. 09.04.44 B-24 (3 points)

12. 11.04.44 B-17 HSS (2 points)

13. 24.04.44 B-17 HSS (2 points)

14. 27.05.44 B-17 (3 points)

15. 07.06.44 P-47 (1 point)

16. 10.06.44 P-47 (1 point)

 

so this fictional pilot participated in 20 fighting interactions.

- 3 final destructions, no kills credited, although he might has killed 30 human beings!

- 6 shoot outs (HSS), 6 kills credited, although all 6 might have retuned to base with all 60 members alive!

- 4 fighters shot down, plus one damadged, 4 kills credited

- 6 bombers downed by himself alone

- all in all got credit for 16 victories/kills

- 37 points (if i counted correctly) means he still had to gather almost double this points for a Knight Cross.

 

this system didnt work well, because most pilots hated killing those final destructions. and when Shooting down one of these separated bombers, they claimed it often as a whole kill to get the points. then, there were more HSS than e.V. means lot of separated bombers managed to return to base/ dith in friendly theritory.

 

then, finally, there was a little suspicious mobbing of some units. JG 1 and JG 11 pilots seldom got credits for their successes against fourengined bombers, only a handful loyal Nazis got Higher awards like Knights Cross. 

on the other hand, some units like JG 3, JG 300 and most Sturmgruppen did not suffer from this kind of misstreatment. at least as far Prien is comcerned.

 

 

[YR-AndreiTomescu]

On 12/10/2024 at 2:52 PM, GasTeddy said:

, but haven't managed to find any proper book of Romanian pilots in WW2.

I have almost everything written after 2000 about ww2 romanian pilots, but they are all written in romanian language. The diaries and memories are especially awesome. The best to read, however, as a kind of resume, is a rather new one, written by general Victor Strâmbeanu, with lots of details and fotocopies of reports and documents. It's a comprehensive book about the first 12 romanian aces.

[YR-AndreiTomescu]

The book describes real fights, as told or/and documented, and has (luckily for me translated :)) inserts of not only romanian, but also German document. An ex for those lucky to ...deutche sprache :))

p.s. the book also has over 600 pages.....

Edited December 14, 2024 by AndreiTomescu

[KodiakJac]

1 hour ago, AndreiTomescu said:

The diaries and memories are especially awesome.

 

I read everything I could get my hands on about WWI and WWII aviation from the age of about 12 to 16.  Then the pursuit of girls got in the way...lol

 

And like you, I found the diaries the most interesting of reads.  Wrong theater, but the book "Tail of a Tiger" by Robert T. Smith was one of the best diaries I read.  On each left page was a 1 page diary entry in chronological order from when he was a Flying Tiger, and the right page would be his thoughts on his diary entry as an author many years later.  Back and forth as you turned each page.  First, from the eyes of a "20 something" year old Flying Tiger, and then his thoughts looking back on those years, sometimes horrified at what he said in his diary entries.  But those diary pages were from the eyes of a young man seeing death all around him, and the hate that filled his heart from those experiences.

 

It was an eye opening read for a 16 year old full of "flag and country" patriotism.

[LukeFF]

Yes, I've implemented a point system for German careers on the two Western Front maps. Fighters and transports are worth 1 "point", and bombers are worth 2 "points" (since we only have twins and in reality twin-engine bombers were worth 2 points).

[YR-AndreiTomescu]

9 hours ago, KodiakJac said:

the book "Tail of a Tiger" by Robert T. Smith

Oh, yes, you are sooo right! This guy was also a very, very talented writer, so his diaries are also good literature. In a way, a kind of Saint-Exupéry from USA. There was a guy somewhat similar in Romania, lieutenant Theodor Greceanu, but his memories and filosofics hindsight about them were published late, after the fall of communism. Here most of the ace pilots died in prison but some  survived after torture. (Greceanu lost both legs after being kept 48 hrs with them in frozen water, after his last escape attempt).

IMHO reading this kind of literature, being Russian, American, German, or from pilots/authors from any other countries is like a looking thru an open window back in time. Gives you insight and knowledge of the past.

@DFLion made some very good missions, with great immersion, based on the diaries of Clostermann, I've read those, 'cause I've found them translated.

@Sandmarken made a scripted campaign about the exploits of the IAR pilots in Crimea. It's not exact script of their missions, but I can assure you that the missions are very strictly based on actual facts, as described in what reports and stories we could find.

[Sandmarken]

23 minutes ago, AndreiTomescu said:

reports and stories we could find

You could find! 😁 I still think about that report where two Romanian pilots claimed to have fought off (50?!) LA-5s to defend a Red Cross Ju 52.

[YR-AndreiTomescu]

althought their claim is quite "star trek" and despite the fact that they were top ro aces, the report of the colonel leading the evacuation column (he left in one of the Junkers and saw the clash first hand) , remains. Afterwards he sent a letter of commendation to the romanian headquarters, so Dobran's story, as told in his diary, is quite believable. In fact they shifted the battle away from the Junkers that were escaping at tree top level. Althought they had Bf 109 G6 , not IAR.....😁. the actual number of the La-5 is, of course, is something to be taken with a grain of salt.....the report from the Junkers crew states " anything from eight to fifty reds". Their bravery remains none the less.

Edited December 15, 2024 by AndreiTomescu

[Sandmarken]

5 hours ago, AndreiTomescu said:

althought their claim is quite "star trek" and despite the fact that they were top ro aces, the report of the colonel leading the evacuation column (he left in one of the Junkers and saw the clash first hand) , remains. Afterwards he sent a letter of commendation to the romanian headquarters, so Dobran's story, as told in his diary, is quite believable. In fact they shifted the battle away from the Junkers that were escaping at tree top level. Althought they had Bf 109 G6 , not IAR.....😁. the actual number of the La-5 is, of course, is something to be taken with a grain of salt.....the report from the Junkers crew states " anything from eight to fifty reds". Their bravery remains none the less.

And one mission in the Little Brother campaign is loosely based on this story.😃

[KodiakJac]

3 hours ago, Sandmarken said:

And one mission in the Little Brother campaign is loosely based on this story.😃

 

Yes, I love your Little Brother campaign!  Haven't finished it yet, but so far it is very good 👍

[Sandmarken]

20 minutes ago, KodiakJac said:

 

Yes, I love your Little Brother campaign!  Haven't finished it yet, but so far it is very good 👍

Very happy you like it! It was fun to make it and learn more about the struggles of Romanian pilots! 

[Rudini]

@AndreiTomescu

buna ziua tovaras! 😀

 

I have some questions about the ARR since there is not much found in the Internet. Hope you could help.

 

My first question is: What do you know about the 3rd Bomber / Dive Bomber Group. In fact i found only one mentionings on worldwad2.ro, that they flew first Potez 633s and from 1943 on Ju 87 Ds before it was merged with and reduced to 8th Assault-Dive Bomber Group.

 

the thing is: my aunt married the son of one of those 3rd Bomb Group pilot (Emil Petrescu). I want to find out more.

[Rudini]

@AndreiTomescu

buna ziua tovaras! 😀

 

It is said he served on the eastern front from 1941 till the end and never had been wounded nor shot down.

 

nevertheless, he was a technical officer and propably didnt fly too many sharp missions. i did not see amy logbook nor medals.

 

here some photos, hope i can get some more background infos:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Rudini

[Sandmarken]

4 hours ago, Rudini said:

@AndreiTomescu

buna ziua tovaras! 😀

 

I have some questions about the ARR since there is not much found in the Internet. Hope you could help.

 

My first question is: What do you know about the 3rd Bomber / Dive Bomber Group. In fact i found only one mentionings on worldwad2.ro, that they flew first Potez 633s and from 1943 on Ju 87 Ds before it was merged with and reduced to 8th Assault-Dive Bomber Group.

 

the thing is: my aunt married the son of one of those 3rd Bomb Group pilot (Emil Petrescu). I want to find out more.

Hello! In the Little Brother campaign I made for the IAR 80, the 3rd divebomber group made an appearance as they operated from the area in the summer of 1943. This is one of the sources I used: http://www.virtualarad.net/orizont_aviatic/august_2003/articol7/articol_7.htm

 

It's in Romanian and I had to use a translator and get help from Andrei Tomescu to translate.

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/88518-the-little-brother-iar-80/

 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Sandmarken

[YR-AndreiTomescu]

 

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