Korea back to Il-2?

[Rudini]

@LukeFF might be interesting to discuss it in public.

 

 

Hi there,

 

as you all know, this fantastic game has its merits and a lot of loyal hardcore fans around the globe will play it propably forever.

 

BUT! 

As you all know, too, the offline career is unplayable.... yet, there is not much left, to become perfect. 

 

• Droptanks: for example you cant really play Normandy career, flying a Bf 109 from the Beauvais-Tillé airdrome without a droptank. Same with other Bf 109 units in the Bodenplatte career. As we can see on the very first Korea screenshots, there will be droptanks .
• Thowship and Fourship tactics: another bad thing is that Il-2 nowadays is lacking the posibility of formation fighting as a pair, fourship or squadron, linke in the old Il-2 series, 20 years ago.
• and so on 😉

 

My question is,

 

will there be something like a transition move of old 3d models and maps from the actual Il-2 series to the new korea engine? 😃

 

I mean someday after the korea release. i really dont need any better 3d models and design. gameplay is more important to me and propably others.

 

Thanks and best regards,

Rudi (a fan since 2002)

[LukeFF]

Thanks! 

 

4 minutes ago, Rudini said:

My question is,

 

will there be something like a transition move of old 3d models and maps from the actual Il-2 series to the new korea engine? 😃

 

No, everything is being made essentially from scratch for the revised engine. So much is being changed in the way models are being built and textured that it really just isn't worth it.

[TempestV]

"BUT! 

As you all know, too, the offline career is unplayable.... yet, there is not much left, to become perfect. "

🙄

 

To bad you feel like that. I'm having a good time with it. Living out in the Central Pacific isn't the best for multiplayer. (time zones, servers etc.).

 

 

[Rudini]

 

 @TempestV well, psychologists around the world asked themself "who has the most joy with a bottle of excellent wine? a random person or a wine connosieur?" To shorten the answer: the connosieur. The principle is this: the more you know/become a specialist of something, for example wine or airhistory or anything else, the more you can enjoy a good quality. but on the other hand you suffer if it is not perfect.

 

i dont want to prank but i admit buying and reading a lot of literature about airial warfare of ww2 (no tech stuff) and can no longer have the fun of a freshman like in old days flying the very first time Crimson Sky arcade or Demo CD Il-2 Sturmovik with arcade mode in 2002.... okay, i admit, this Il-2 series is semi-arcade. But the career mode is what it keeps me flying. otherwise i would have switched to CoD (no career) or DCS (no career, too few planes) or Warthunder (arcade). Lets say this series has the best emersion feeling during career mode (but still using the career-MODs made by the comunity).

 

I dont know the nieche of this Il-2 product among the other simulations. A little insight from the team or @LukeFF could help to understand their fight for cashflow. We see, selling popular aircraft that makes no sense to the maps like Fw 190 A-3 or Ta 152, is urgent to maintain the hotshot charlies, flying online against humans. Investing in Tanks is pretty cool, but lacking a career mode and abviously lacking the manpower to maintain a non-arcade and AI complex second branch was a bad idea.

The complexity of the early CoD for 100% realistic simers did not make enough cash, either. I suppose the actual Il-2 Product is something in between, or a bunch of lets say 30% cashflow from hotshot charlies flying fighters on servers, 60% cashflow from old Il-2 vets, now in their 40s and 50s switching to more chilling machines like C-47, Ju-52, Hs-129, Bf 110, DFW C.V and so on, with a rest of 10% of unoriented consumers flying anything but are volatile to the Il-2 brand. And lets not forget the lucky fusion with RoF, transfering a totally niche product, ww1s, to the Il-2 world.

 

@others, some more ideas for Korea/Pacific/futurenewengineETO...

• 001 - Droptanks: for example you cant really play Normandy career, flying a Bf 109 from the Beauvais-Tillé airdrome without a droptank. Same with other Bf 109 units in the Bodenplatte career. As we can see on the very first Korea screenshots, there will be droptanks .
• 002 - Thowship and Fourship tactics: another bad thing is that Il-2 nowadays is lacking the posibility of formation fighting as a pair, fourship or squadron, linke in the old Il-2 series, 20 years ago.
• 003 - Career forward base: at least for Luftwaffe, for long distances, ww1 (jastas 4,6,10,10) and ww2. Start a transfer flight in the morning near the frontline, fly 2-5 missions from there, then in the evening transfer flight back to main base. Sometimes staying at the foreward base for one or more nights. variation.
• 004 - Return to base flights: after a long mission, far away from the homebase, sometimes you have to land on any near base to refill and rearm. mainly in Reich Defense missions. Then, for the career, there has to be a return to base flight. Emersion feeling.
• 005 - Mission count: at the moment a transfer flight is counted as a mission. Well, this and most sims fly only combat missions. But there has to be a logbook/flightbook for the career, counting each flight (transfer, training, testing, missions). this is simply wrong. Only missions crossing the border and/or enganging enemy activity should be counted as a combat mission. the rest, without this criteria just as mission. all there, together with transfer, training, testing are counted as flights. 
  • therefore Hartmann has 1.404 missions (Einsätze), a flight with a combat task, but only 825 combat missions (Frontflüge) counted for crossing the border and/or enemy contact. Still contact is no combat - at least in reallife. Often some bogeys were detected but they did not attack, because they had no advantage, were short on fuel or another priority.
• 006 - Extra Emersion Feeling flights: for times with bad weather:
  • repair and test flights, ferrying combat airplanes to the own base
  • transport flights (for example in a Bf 109 unit flying with a Ju 52 to a base in the backjard with the task to get some spare parts or something else)
  • weather recognisance in the early morning, mainly for very young beginner pilots
  • as a squadron leader: regular flights to headquartetrs and bomber/attack squadrons to "talk about frontline tactics/getting detailed orders" before a main big attack or retreat. Look at the flightbook of Johannes Steinhoff, CO of II./JG 52 for 1942. He flew with his Bf 109 G-2 to many "discussions", and back to base.
  • finding a useful airdrome: flying in the evening with a Fiesler Storch low and test landing on an airdrome before a unit transfer, and back to base. then the other day try to land with a frontline aircraft (Bf 109). Then the whole unit follows
  • testflights after a long period without flying. even old hares, after returning to frontline (holidays, hospital) they had to practise 3-5 start and landings at the base. The same for very new pilots.
• 007 - Victories/Claim system: after a mission without eyewitness from the air or ground a victory should not be counted. the same with the cheaters (Hartmann, Rudorffer, etc.) claiming more victories than downed aircraft. Some AI squadmates could be notorious cheaters, for example, raising fast in rank and decorations. PWCG has a nice function: you can claim after a combat the aircraft by yourself. So you have to be careful with identification and couting - it has the posibility to cheat - some victories can be counted even if they were not downed in reality. a punishment (degradation, transfer to another unit) should be implemented if it becomes too notorious.
• 008 - Suqadron fluctuation: well, in a career unit, some squad mates are transfered. but only random, without any sense.
  • competent officers should be transferred to similar units as squadron leaders (see 009).
  • non comissioned officers (very skilled, but no top leading career) should remain in the same squadron or at least same group for their whole career.
  • well, some pilots got bullied and transfered to another suqadron in the same group (see 009).
  • a lot of young pilots were not suitable for frontline duty (aprox. 25%) and transfered to ferry units or transport units or event to ground duty.
  • a lot of young pilots needed more training and were send back to training units.
  • but please, please, please! no transfer of a fighter to a bomber unit. i know no such cases within the war. maybe only after a long career in ww1 or the 30s some might get transfered to attack (Dick Best, Midway) or to bomber units in ww2. fighter to attack were possible, after the 26th year of life. and a transfer of a bomber/attack/transport pilot to the fighters were possible.
  • in some cases a temporary transfer to a training unit for skilled pilots would make sense, returning after 2-6 months.
• 009 - Splitting Luftwaffe units: well, in some rare cases there are squadrons playable (4./JG 52, 7./JG 52, 9./JG 77 in BoN for example). But in most other cases there are only units like II./JG 52 as an example, flying there with the same amount of pilots/aircraft like in squadrons. WELL!!!! It would make more sense to split it in a Stab II./JG 52 for the group comander and their squadrons 4./JG 52, 5./JG 52, 6./JG 52 operating mostly from the same bases, but starting from different corners of the base, different colours of numbers, etc. the cases when some squadrons operated from different bases as the main group cand be found in literature or the internet. So transfering between the squadrons (see 008) could make sense and flying as a whole group in defense of the Reich, 44-45, could be flown.
• and so on...

[AtomicP]

Rise of Flight was essentially remastered (the core bits anyway) into Flying Circus, so you never know. It'd be some years away though, so enjoy what you've got now.

[LukeFF]

Rudini, for many of those things, the only way to implement them is to rewrite the GUI, which is exactly what we are doing for Korea. It's been mentioned in our Dev Brief videos that the GUI in GB is based on very old tech that no one really uses any more for game development.

[Enceladus828]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Rudini, for many of those things, the only way to implement them is to rewrite the GUI, which is exactly what we are doing for Korea. It's been mentioned in our Dev Brief videos that the GUI in GB is based on very old tech that no one really uses any more for game development.

Since Drop Tanks will more than likely never be in GBs, could they just be simulated on aircraft that require them for a mission? For instance on the Bf-109 there is the option to have a fuel load of 125% and 150%

[LukeFF]

No

[taffy2jeffmorgan]

I must agree with Rudini that even small essentials like drop tanks will be important when this fantastic combat flight simulation progresses to the Korean air war, it's a long way too the Yalu river. But more importantly is the AI factor, to be able to communicate with your wingman and flight before and during combat was a factor that the Americans relied on and which contributed to their success against North Koreans, Chinese, and Russian MiG 15 pilots.

 

Cheers

 

[kraut1]

20 hours ago, Rudini said:

 

• 002 - Thowship and Fourship tactics: another bad thing is that Il-2 nowadays is lacking the posibility of formation fighting as a pair, fourship or squadron, linke in the old Il-2 series, 20 years ago.
• 003 - Career forward base: at least for Luftwaffe, for long distances, ww1 (jastas 4,6,10,10) and ww2. Start a transfer flight in the morning near the frontline, fly 2-5 missions from there, then in the evening transfer flight back to main base. Sometimes staying at the foreward base for one or more nights. variation.
• 004 - Return to base flights: after a long mission, far away from the homebase, sometimes you have to land on any near base to refill and rearm. mainly in Reich Defense missions. Then, for the career, there has to be a return to base flight. Emersion feeling.
• 005 - Mission count: at the moment a transfer flight is counted as a mission. Well, this and most sims fly only combat missions. But there has to be a logbook/flightbook for the career, counting each flight (transfer, training, testing, missions). this is simply wrong. Only missions crossing the border and/or enganging enemy activity should be counted as a combat mission. the rest, without this criteria just as mission. all there, together with transfer, training, testing are counted as flights. 
  • therefore Hartmann has 1.404 missions (Einsätze), a flight with a combat task, but only 825 combat missions (Frontflüge) counted for crossing the border and/or enemy contact. Still contact is no combat - at least in reallife. Often some bogeys were detected but they did not attack, because they had no advantage, were short on fuel or another priority.
• 006 - Extra Emersion Feeling flights: for times with bad weather:
  • repair and test flights, ferrying combat airplanes to the own base
  • transport flights (for example in a Bf 109 unit flying with a Ju 52 to a base in the backjard with the task to get some spare parts or something else)
  • weather recognisance in the early morning, mainly for very young beginner pilots
  • as a squadron leader: regular flights to headquartetrs and bomber/attack squadrons to "talk about frontline tactics/getting detailed orders" before a main big attack or retreat. Look at the flightbook of Johannes Steinhoff, CO of II./JG 52 for 1942. He flew with his Bf 109 G-2 to many "discussions", and back to base.
  • finding a useful airdrome: flying in the evening with a Fiesler Storch low and test landing on an airdrome before a unit transfer, and back to base. then the other day try to land with a frontline aircraft (Bf 109). Then the whole unit follows
  • testflights after a long period without flying. even old hares, after returning to frontline (holidays, hospital) they had to practise 3-5 start and landings at the base. The same for very new pilots.
•  

-I like your ideas.

-in 2000 one year before the original IL-2 was released I suggested similar things for IL2, nothing was considered

-The IL-2GB pilot career system is very complex, extremely many config files..., I would compare it a bit with the DGN of 1946.

I think this is the reason why new, additional ideas are not implemented very often.

 

-What I did in 1946 and what I try to do now in current IL2GB:

I give up the idea of the perfect IL2GB pilot career and instead of this I create with mission generators my own standard career missions and from time to time I add some special hand made missions.

-IL2 1946 Campaign Generator il2dcg by Paul Lowengrin used, but not in the DGEN mode, I used the mode for the static campaign.

-IL2 GB I use EMG by Vander as campaign mission generator

-The campaign is either a Excel Logbook campaign

-Or I use the missions for a Scripted campaign

For example I am supporting @Marque on a special eastern front campaign. He created the concept and according to this I am generating the basic missions. Most missions by EMG created but some extra missions similar to your "visit flight to a head quarter" are created manually with ME.

Maybe, with my next campaign It could be an pilot, that flyes very late in WW1 his first missions and later some few in scw and in WW2 maybe as the "technical officer" of a Unit from time to time combat missions.

-For my Normandy EMG mod I have already created some improvised Feldflugplätze closer to the fronts. So as you suggested maybe in a campaign at the morning a mission from the main base to the the advanced airfield, than at the same day one or two combat missions and at the evening to return to the main base.

-But for my selfmade pilot careers I never create all missions at once. I create all missions by using an Excel Sheet for random numbers for mission parameters and I use random parameters in EMG too. And directly after creating I fly the mission. When I have been wounded e.g. I use the Excel Random Table to decide when I am fit for service again. And my next mission considers this time span.

-And what I have done 2015 when IL2GB had no real pilot career mode:

I flew my main campaign with IL21946, created with il2dcg,  but for the Battle of Stalingrad I flew some missions with BoS, to add the BoS results th the 1946 campaign I created there a "Eastern Front" Dummy mission with straight flying unarmed russian bombers, fighters. For each BoS mission I flew the Dummy mission and shot down the same number of planes as I did in BoS.

Here my very first post (2015):

And in the same way, only reversed I will maybe add some few CLOD mission results to a IL2GB campaign.

[Rudini]

@kraut1

i use Excel as a logbook, too 👍 with the same parameters like in the real logbooks, counting each flight.

 

return to base and practice flights i do manually with the mission builder, counting them again in Excel.

 

thats the best way for emersion feeling.

 

hint for Flying Circus career (though missing training aircraft):

 

- on the Rheinland map you can build a gunner school stay at Köln-Butzweilerhof airfield (not so much hangars like in BoNP carree, though) practicing backseater gunnery and navigation in a DFW C.V - the school for gunnery AND flight training FEA 7 was stationed there until march 1917. Afterwards only existend as gunnery school BFS. the Red Baron got his gunnery backseater Training there, too (final training at Großenhain). For spring 1917 a short stay of a week is sufficient like logbooks say, Red Baron took a month stay in 1915 though. 20 flights

 

- here you can skip to the next step or ad a duty with a recon unit as a gunner for at least 6 months with FFA 225. very few later jasta pilots got directly to flight school. But again, skiping would be historically correct.

 

- again on Rhineland map at Crefeld there was a Werksgelände for Condor, used in ww1 by FEA 9, usually based with its flight school at Darmstadt-Griesheim, to train pilots. Crefeld and Köln are the only ww1 airdrome modeled in Il-2 BoX. Alternatively until march 1917 Köln-Butzweilerhof with FEA 7 or like Red Barron in Metz-Frescaty at the unusual frontline unit Brieftaubenabteilung-Metz, here you can build some training missions for a 3 month stay. about 250-400 flights

 

 

- at Lille there you can build some acclimatization missions for the AFP 6, getting used to the front for 1-3 weeks, testflying and ferrying frontline aircraft to aerodromes. 10 flights per week

 

- then, no direct transfer to jasta. in reality you had to serve at least 6 months as an recon flyer, for example with FFA 225.

 

- the Valenciennes airfield is on the map, so you can build some Fighterschool flights at Jastaschule I in some early crates like Fokk E.III, Halb D.II, Alb D.II, Alb D.III (Hantelmann was there for a very short stay of a week in february 1918). 20-40 flights, 10 formation flights.

 

- again AFP 6, then any jasta

 

Edited November 26, 2024 by Rudini

[Hoss]

On 11/14/2024 at 5:26 AM, Rudini said:

 

 @TempestV well, psychologists around the world asked themself "who has the most joy with a bottle of excellent wine? a random person or a wine connosieur?" To shorten the answer: the connosieur. The principle is this: the more you know/become a specialist of something, for example wine or airhistory or anything else, the more you can enjoy a good quality. but on the other hand you suffer if it is not perfect.

I beg to differ......

https://youtu.be/OSl41mW0NK4?si=Ajr4Y7YDtj6ljA6x

[Avimimus]

I'm not sure about that... do people actually enjoy the wine more or do they value the experience of enjoying the wine more? I'd like to see the methods for such a study before reaching any conclusion.

 

Also, it is quite possible that expertise can go in the opposite direction - people can work themselves into being overly narrow in their preferences: 'who has the most joy with a bottle of excellent wine' is the way you put the question - but it could also be put as 'who has the least joy with a bottle of normal wine'?

 

This, of course, could apply to us who in deep within the flight-sim genre...

[Trooper117]

Jesus... now this is a first. Now it's all about wine... instead of whine of course 

[kraut1]

Hi @Rudini

I tried something new for Great Battles:

Command the different flights of a Stuka (or in general ground attack) Squadron:

 

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

Jesus... now this is a first. Now it's all about wine... instead of whine of course 

 

Trying to encourage us to have at little self-awareness... the wine is an analogy.

[Trooper117]

7 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

??

 

Absolutely... I have no idea where it went!

[Avimimus]

5 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

Absolutely... I have no idea where it went!

 

Looked into it, found out what happened - and sent you a PM with the explanation so we can discuss.