Need help with F-86 Sabre and F-84E placards

[LukeFF]

Hey all, we need some help with a placard found in the F-86 A-5 cockpit (circled in red). I've done my best to try to decipher what is written, but owing to the image's resolution and the lack of other similar images this one has been hard to figure out. Could you help us out with what's written here?

What I think is written is:

 

Second line:

(illegible) NOT ENGAGED

Third line from the bottom:

START NOT ENGAGED (and then something else)

Bottom line:

(illegible) SEE T.O. (illegible)

 

[Avimimus]

Hopefully one of these will help:

 

I recommend downloading them and switching between them as needed!

[MajorMagee]

Unfortunately, the F-86A we have here at the museum (NMUSAF) does not have that text on the panel.

[MajorMagee]

This is the 1951 edition of the manual. A quick scan through didn't bring up any similar wording related to a stock aircraft configuration.

 

F-86A Flight Manual

 

If we had the TO number then the text would be part of the Tech Order that added this placard note.

 

 

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, MajorMagee said:

This is the 1951 edition of the manual. A quick scan through didn't bring up any similar wording related to a stock aircraft configuration.

 

F-86A Flight Manual

 

If we had the TO number then the text would be part of the Tech Order that added this placard note.

 

Yes, I can read enough of the text on the last line to see that it refers to a technical order, but it's not clear enough what it refers to. 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

I've apparently got good eyes since I could make out some more:

 

_ application of 

_ controls not exceed

_ external _ inst_

do not [exceed?] [15?]° for lan[ding?]

[if?] _ [time?] of _ _

start_ not exceed [15?]°

_ [time?] for remainder 

[flight] see T.O. _

 

Not enough to understand what it says, but perhaps it'll help someone else (someone who knows a thing or 2 about F-86 operations) to come up with a full transliteration. 

[MajorMagee]

Here are two later revisions of the Flight Manual

 

1952

 

1957

 

The later version refers to itself as TO 1F-86A-1 (versus AN 01-60JLA-1), so that probably indicates that whatever the panel note is, it was applied post 1953.

 

https://www.aircorpsaviation.com/the-t-o-system/

[MajorMagee]

If the word is actually caged, then we may be looking at gyro operation instructions.

[LukeFF]

14 minutes ago, MajorMagee said:

If the word is actually caged, then we may be looking at gyro operation instructions.

 

That's what I was thinking too.

6 hours ago, MajorMagee said:

Here are two later revisions of the Flight Manual

 

1952

 

1957

 

The later version refers to itself as TO 1F-86A-1 (versus AN 01-60JLA-1), so that probably indicates that whatever the panel note is, it was applied post 1953.

 

https://www.aircorpsaviation.com/the-t-o-system/

 

Thanks! Didn't know that about TOs vs ANs. 

Good stuff, guys, please keep it coming. This is all very helpful.

[Stonehouse]

These guys have a F86A5 that served with the 4th FIW at Kimpo. They may have additional reference info or pics. Someone from the Cleveland Ohio area might be able to get pics for you?

 

North American F-86A “Sabre” - MAPS Air Museum

 

Interesting sites perhaps for you too

Korean War F-86 Pilots 334th 335th 336th Reference Guide (yocumusa.com)

Collection Search Results | Query: "North American F-86 Sabre Family" | page 1 (si.edu)  <edit> sorry see that you know this one as you are already using a pic from Ward Hitt's scrapbook. 

Edited September 1, 2024 by Stonehouse

[AEthelraedUnraed]

15 hours ago, MajorMagee said:

If the word is actually caged, then we may be looking at gyro operation instructions.

You mean the word Luke transliterated as "engaged"?

 

Even though the word is barely legible, we can see it has 6 characters so that rules out both engaged and caged. I'm reasonably certain about "exceed", especially when cross-referencing it with what seems to be the same word 4 lines below.

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

These guys have a F86A5 that served with the 4th FIW at Kimpo. They may have additional reference info or pics. Someone from the Cleveland Ohio area might be able to get pics for you?

 

At the least, I'll try to contact them and see if they can help. Thanks for the tip!

[Aapje]

@AEthelraedUnraed

 

'Exceed' seems like a likely word for a placard anyway, since they typically describe certain limitations.

[joseph9929]

1. First Line: "APPLICATION OF"
2. Second Line: "AFTERBURNER IS NOT ENGAGED"
3. Third Line: "THROTTLE MOVEMENTS TO MAX SHOULD NOT EXCEED 5 SEC FOR LANDING"
4. Fourth Line: "START. THE TIME OF RLS ENGAGEMENT SHOULD NOT EXCEED 5 SEC"
5. Fifth Line: "FOR REMAINDER OF FLIGHT SEE T.O. 

[LuftManu]

I ran an AI enhancement but the text stills looks blurry.

 

 

EDIT: Just saw @joseph9929 text and I think he might on the correct path.
This seems to be also some post war placcard as noted above.

 

Kind regards!

[joseph9929]

 

Glad to help out! @LuftManu

I'm a Korean, biggest fan of your hard works.

 

Please let me know if you need any more help/info or translation in regards to anything

 

There is a Sabre actually in one of the regional university here in Korea, that I had a chance to visit.

 

 

[MajorMagee]

The string hanging down and the lip of the gauge in front of it doesn't help.

 

The fact that the instrument panel layout is different than any of the three Flight Manuals posted above raises a few questions as well.

 

p.s. I tried Gigapixel AI, and Photo AI text preservation on it yesterday morning without success as well.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2024 by MajorMagee

[LukeFF]

5 hours ago, joseph9929 said:

1. First Line: "APPLICATION OF"
2. Second Line: "AFTERBURNER IS NOT ENGAGED"
3. Third Line: "THROTTLE MOVEMENTS TO MAX SHOULD NOT EXCEED 5 SEC FOR LANDING"
4. Fourth Line: "START. THE TIME OF RLS ENGAGEMENT SHOULD NOT EXCEED 5 SEC"
5. Fifth Line: "FOR REMAINDER OF FLIGHT SEE T.O. 

 

Thank you very much for this!

[LukeFF]

So, this will be for VikS to decide, but I think given this information we can conclude at this point that the original photo was taken after 1953:

• TOs replaced ANs post-1953
• The very helpful reference above is from an F-model 

That makes me think the original photo was taken stateside post-1953, after it had been returned to the U.S. (or it was an aircraft that never left the U.S. and remained stateside during the war for training). The gunsight is definitely one applied to A-5s.

[BOO]

If you take a look at the digitised scrap book from where I assume the image comes form, its one of 2 quite "offical" looking images of an F86 that are of a completly different size than the more intimate snaps. I would assume the scrap book was put together later and is a mix of personal and sourced images. 

 

Kudos for trying to find a contemporary image though and for shoving the usual "deficiencies" text in there. 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

10 hours ago, joseph9929 said:

1. First Line: "APPLICATION OF"
2. Second Line: "AFTERBURNER IS NOT ENGAGED"
3. Third Line: "THROTTLE MOVEMENTS TO MAX SHOULD NOT EXCEED 5 SEC FOR LANDING"
4. Fourth Line: "START. THE TIME OF RLS ENGAGEMENT SHOULD NOT EXCEED 5 SEC"
5. Fifth Line: "FOR REMAINDER OF FLIGHT SEE T.O. 

Hmm, several of those words don't make sense when looking at the picture.

• There is no space visible between what you read as "afterburner" and "is"; moreover there seems to be too few characters for "afterburner" (although some are obscured).
• Wasn't an afterburner only installed on later F-86 versions?
• As already said, there's only 6 characters visible in the word you transliterate as "engaged", where 7 would be needed.
• Far too few characters for "throttle movements"; a space halfway in "throttle" and no space between "to" and "max". "Should" is split between lines. The number clearly has two digits; whatever comes next is a single superscript character so probably something like an ° for degrees or " for inches.
• You mix up the word order. Start only comes in the next line.
• Not sure how you read "RLS" in the three remaining characters on line 5. The first character is rather open on the right side while the second character appears as a solid blob with a small indent to the top. My guess is "en" for "engine", part of which is obscured by the instrument to the right.
• Again, the amount of digits and the superscript character don't really make sense for "5 sec".
• There's at least 6 additional characters visible before "for remainder..."

 

There's nothing wrong with blind guessing and honestly every comment is helpful, but if you're having a shot in the dark, please state so. Right now it looks as if you're pretty certain or have other sources which in the worst case could result in completely wrong textures in the final game.

 

Of course, if your transliteration does come from another source, please do mention that as well

[LukeFF]

The whole afterburner issue does present some questions, since the model we are making didn't have one. 

[firdimigdi]

All I got from the top half part is:

 

<ILLEGIBLE> APPLICATION OF

<ILLEGIBLE> CONTROLS NOT EXCEED

WITH EXTERNAL TANKS INSTALLED

DO NOT <ILLEGIBLE> 15 FOR <ILLEGIBLE>

 

I see nothing about afterburners

[Mysticpuma]

This is a 50mb file but it contains the original photo and history of the photographer who took it.

https://www.mediafire.com/file/5f04cujgnk4zl3f/5e1ad2ae9ccd4a5456fd03a0e6851bfb.pdf/file

[LukeFF]

Thanks!

[LukeFF]

Hey guys, I have another request here for the F-84E. Unfortunately the placard in question is behind the landing gear handle. Anyone have any sources for what it should say? It seems like it's maybe something about pylons.

 

[Aapje]

I have no sources, but what I think I see is 'Warning' at the top, then 'exceed' on the second line. Given the spacing, I would bet good money that the 2nd line says 'Do not exceed.'

 

Then the third line seems to end with either 'tip' or 'top'.

The fourth and 6th line pretty clearly end with 'pylon.'

The 5th line is unclear. Perhaps it also ends with 'pylon'.

The 7th line seems to end with 'are.'

And the final line seems to end with '-ed'

 

PS. Luke, I found that exact same picture on the site of the national museum of the US air force, but there it is labeled as the F-84G. Are you sure that this is right for the E-model?

 

Edited June 27 by Aapje

[namhee2]

From F-84-f

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

I would us AI.

here I did it for you.

 

https://chatgpt.com/c/685f10f7-a298-8008-a71b-e9ca19476206

 

LANDING GEAR
EMERGENCY EXTENSION
(1) PULL EMERGENCY RELEASE HANDLE
(2) TURN HANDCRANK CLOCKWISE
UNTIL GEAR IS DOWN AND LOCKED

 

MAX ALLOWABLE MACH  
(CRUISING FLIGHT)  
CLEAN .................... 0.92  
TIP TANKS ONLY ........... 0.90  
ANY STORES ............... 0.85

 

 

Edited June 27 by 71st_AH_Mastiff

[LukeFF]

Thanks, guys! Keep it coming. 

[LukeFF]

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

Luke, I found that exact same picture on the site of the national museum of the US air force, but there it is labeled as the F-84G. Are you sure that this is right for the E-model?

 

I asked @=FB=VikS, and he says that late E models and early G models were essentially the same with the cockpit layout, so that might be what you're seeing. 

[LukeFF]

Hey all, I have noticed there are a few F-84Es in museums in Belgium. Is anyone close to them and could maybe find out what they have?

[Aapje]

One is over here: https://www.kleinebrogelairbase.be/index.php/nl/info-links/laatste-nieuws-kb/kleine-brogel-air-museum-kbam

 

And: https://kbam.be/f84eg.php

 

So between Eindhoven and Genk.

 

The other one is here: https://www.museespitfire-florennes.be/musée/le-grand-hall/

 

In the south of Belgium, below Charleroi.

 

In Brussels, they have the F-84G, so I don't think that is of interest.

 

@LukeFF I find your question a bit vague. What do you need to know beyond what is available on the museum websites (that have photos of the outside)? Do you expect people to take a look inside to see whether the interior is intact? And can't you just contact these museums with the questions you have?

Edited June 30 by Aapje

[Aapje]

Wow, someone actually tracked down the fate of all of the 21 F-84E's that Belgium had:

 

https://www.belgian-wings.be/republic-f-84e-thunderjet

 

At Kleine Brogel, they have FS-17, the plane of the CO of fighter wing 10 that was stationed at Kleine Brogel.

 

And this is a nice picture of the F-84E at Musee Spitfire: https://www.airhistory.net/photo/535796/FS-7

 

They claim that it is FS-7, but cross-referencing it with the other site produces strange results, since the 3R-B marking on the plane would supposedly mean that it is FS-6. And the serial number doesn't match FS-6 or 7.

 

PS. And more pictures: https://airfighters.com/photosearch.php?cra=4415

Edited June 30 by Aapje

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, Aapje said:

I find your question a bit vague. What do you need to know beyond what is available on the museum websites (that have photos of the outside)? Do you expect people to take a look inside to see whether the interior is intact? And can't you just contact these museums with the questions you have?

 

I'm trying to find out if there are any interior shots of these planes that would solve the mystery of what that placard days. Yes, I've already emailed 2 of these Belgian museums, but I have no idea if they will respond or even if they do if the information will be helpful. Sometimes this sorta thing works better with people who can show up in person at these museums and just ask. 🙂 

[LukeFF]

Perhaps this will help - I believe the warning card has something to do with these operating limitations. 

 

 

Combined with this additional image, I've come up with the following:

WARNING
DO NOT EXCEED
185 OR 230 GAL. TIP ?
[ILLEGIBLE] PYLON
[ILLEGIBLE] PYLON
[ILLEGIBLE] PYLON
ACROBATICS ARE
PROHIBITED

 

 

Yay, nay, something else? 

[BlitzPig_EL]

Makes sense.

[LukeFF]

Okay, next attempt:

 

WARNING
DO NOT EXCEED
82% ON WING TIP
FUEL TANKS, PYLON
BOMBS, PYLON
ROCKETS ON PYLON
ACROBATICS ARE
PROHIBITED

 

The first line below the DO NOT EXCEED line is almost certainly a warning about the maximum G load permissible. The first word looks like a percentage, so 0.82 = 82%. The second word is a bit sketchy, but it matches up well with "WING" on the placard to the upper right.

 

Going off the page from the manual, it's describing what could be loaded on each pylon, and we do know from the B/W image it does say "PYLON". There does seem to be a comma between each instance of PYLON, which is consistent with how US military terminology works.

 

The last two lines I can, based on the length and pattern of the words, and again, the extract from the manual, confidently say that it says "ACROBATICS ARE PROHIBITED"

I think we're getting closer!

[Aapje]

I don't really understand what would be meant by that though. What does the 82% refer to? They wouldn't specify max G that way, would they?

[BlitzPig_EL]

82% fuel load I suspect is what is meant.