Hanriot HD.1 first impressions (+ some more thoughts)

[BMA_Hellbender]

It's late, I'm working tomorrow and I really don't have much time to fly at all before the weekend, but since some of you have asked, here are my first impressions of the Hanriot HD.1.

 

DISCLAIMER: (click to open)

Spoiler

Yes, I'm Belgian (and so are a few other RoF/FC flyers such as @FlyingShark, @Razneff and @West), and yes, I was born in the same suburb of Brussels as Willy Coppens, where I even went to the Willy Coppens Primary School on Willy Coppens Street (actually the school is not called that and is one street away from there). In the early days of RoF I was borderline obsessed with this machine and even got to meet and interview Walter Pieters, the author on the definitive works regarding the Belgian Air Service and their Hanriot flyers.

 

By the time the Hanriot was actually released in RoF in 2014, I was knee-deep in nappies and had mostly stopped flying, save for the occasional shenanigans with Captain Darling in the Bristol. All this to say: I am not an expert on this plane. Nor have I ever claimed to be one. I'm very much (re)discovering it in FC, as I hope many of you will do too.

 

I can tell you from having flown it briefly in RoF in recent years, that its FM over there matches literature: light, nimble, more refined than a Nieuport, not as maneuverable or unstable as a Camel, but with comparable speed. It makes sense, because, well, it's a French Camel (refused for service by the French).

 

 

• First of all, a huge shout-out to the team for fixing the FFB issues! I've had a quick look at the worst offenders (Triplane, Halberstadt D.II, N11, N17) and they all appear fixed, with elevators now properly falling down with gravity when on the ground.
  
   
• The Hanriot's 3D model looks amazing, as we've come to expect from Yugra Media.
  
   
• ...and it flies remarkably well too. Again: this was a late RoF FM that didn't come with many apparent flaws, which some of the earlier FMs seem to suffer from. It's not a super-plane, far from it, though in many situations it's still a "consummate dogfighter", in that it can outturn almost everything that it can't outrun, and vice versa. It's of course lacking a bit against the Fokker D.VIIF and Siemens-Schuckert D.IV, but then again what isn't?
  
  When looking at its performance, it's pretty much a Camel "light", with two major caveats (see below):
  
  
  
  
  
   
• With only a single machine gun by default (+ an optional overwing), it doesn't pack much of a punch by 1918 standards. Not to mention that because of its central mounting location, forward visibility is not good. The Belgians usually had the machinegun offset to one side, but apparently the Italians did not on the Italian-built Hanriot-Macchi. In any case we have the factory accurate representation in the sim, and there's a way around this poor visibility by looking out the side and "walking in" the tracers.
  
  Likely balloon gun rounds will also need to be looked at in order to make downing balloons slightly easier than with standard ammo.
  
  
  
   
• And that's pretty much it. I'm excited to start flying it properly soon.
  
  However, since I've been given a platform to voice my opinion, I will use it to point out the elephant in the room: we once again have a scout that saw service from 1917, equipped with an engine that only saw widespread service as of mid-1918 (130hp Le Rhône 9Jby). There's nothing wrong with that, it's also the case with the S.E.5a and its 200hp Wolseley Viper, or the Sopwith Camel, which is probably modelled after the performance of a British license-built 140hp Clerget 9Bf. In WWI putting an F at the end of things makes them faster, them's the rules.

 

 

As such, the Hanriot doesn't really have any Central mid-1918 friends to play with (vanilla Fokker D.VII notwithstanding).

Here's how to fix that:

 

1. Copy the 200hp Mercedes D.IIIaü from the Halberstadt CL.II 200hp.
   
    
2. Stick it in the Albatros D.Va. This is the minor engine model change that is needed:
   
   
   
    
3. Call it the Albatros D.Va 200hp. 
   
   You don't need to do a full FM review, just add roughly the same amount of power as you already did for the Albatros D.Va in RoF 1.034, but with the added knocking effect below 1000m.
   
    
4. Sell it to us for $20 as a Collector Plane:
   
   
   
    
5. Profit.

 

 

Now everyone and their mom will come out of the woodwork and say: "Yes and plane X also needs engine Y because Z!".

You're not wrong, but really this is what Central needs: a mainstay mid-1918 fighter that can be thrown at the Belgians (and the rest of the Entente) in large numbers. And the way I see it, with the removal of the Albatros D.II Late, the team still owes us an Albatros.

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by =IRFC=Hellbender
Formatting

[No.23_Starling]

7 hours ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

It's late, I'm working tomorrow and I really don't have much time to fly at all before the weekend, but since some of you have asked, here are my first impressions of the Hanriot HD.1.

 

DISCLAIMER: (click to open)

  Reveal hidden contents

Yes, I'm a Belgian (and so are a few other RoF/FC flyers such as @FlyingShark), and yes I was born in the same suburb of Brussels as Willy Coppens, where I even went to the Willy Coppens Primary School on Willy Coppens Street (actually the school is not called that and is one street away from there). In the early days of RoF I was borderline obsessed with this machine and even got to meet and interview Walter Pieters, the author on the definitive works regarding the Belgian Air Service and their Hanriot flyers.

 

By the time the Hanriot was actually released in RoF in 2014, I was knee-deep in nappies and had mostly stopped flying, save for the occasional shenanigans with Captain Darling in the Bristol. All this to say: I am not an expert on this plane. Nor have I ever claimed to be one. I'm very much (re)discovering it in FC, as I hope many of you will do too.

 

I can tell you from having flown it briefly in RoF in recent years, that its FM over there matches literature: light, nimble, more refined than a Nieuport, not as maneuverable or unstable as a Camel, but with comparable speed. It makes sense, because, well, it's a French Camel (refused for service by the French).

 

 

• First of all, a huge shout-out to the team for fixing the FFB issues! I've had a quick look at the worst offenders (Triplane, Halberstadt D.II, N11, N17) and they all appear fixed, with elevators now properly falling down with gravity when on the ground.
  
   
• The Hanriot's 3D model looks amazing, as we've come to expect from Yugra Media.
  
   
• ...and it flies remarkably well too. Again: this was a late RoF FM that didn't come with many apparent flaws, which some of the earlier FMs seem to suffer from. It's not a super-plane, far from it, though in many situations it's still a "consummate dogfighter", in that it can outturn almost everything that it can't outrun, and vice versa. It's of course lacking a bit against the Fokker D.VIIF and Siemens-Schuckert D.IV, but then again what isn't?
  
  When looking at its performance, it's pretty much a Camel "light", with two major caveats (see below):
  
  
  
  
  
   
• With only a single machine gun by default (+ an optional overwing), it doesn't pack much of a punch by 1918 standards. Not to mention that because of its central mounting location, forward visibility is not good. The Belgians usually had the machinegun offset to one side, but apparently the Italians did not on the Italian-built Hanriot-Macchi. In any case we have the factory accurate representation in the sim, and there's a way around this poor visibility by looking out the side and "walking in" the tracers.
  
  Likely balloon gun rounds will also need to be looked at in order to make downing balloons slightly easier than with standard ammo.
  
  
  
   
• And that's pretty much it. I'm excited to start flying it properly soon.
  
  However, since I've been given a platform to voice my opinion, I will use it to point out the elephant in the room: we once again have a scout that saw service from 1917, equipped with an engine that only saw widespread service as of mid-1918 (130hp Le Rhône 9jby). There's nothing wrong with that, it's also the case with the S.E.5a and its 200hp Wolseley Viper and the Sopwith Camel, which is probably modelled after the performance of a British license-built 140hp Clerget 9Bf. In WWI putting an f at the end of things makes them faster, them's the rules.

 

 

As such, the Hanriot doesn't really have any Central mid-1918 friends to play with (vanilla Fokker D.VII notwithstanding).

Here's how to fix that:

 

1. Copy the 200 hp Mercedes D.IIIaü from the Halberstadt CL.II 200hp.
   
    
2. Stick it in the Albatros D.Va. This is the minor engine model change that is needed:
   
   
   
    
3. Call it the Albatros D.Va 200hp. 
   
   You don't need to do a full FM review, just add roughly the same amount of power as you already did for the Albatros D.Va in RoF 1.034, but with the added knocking effect below 1000m.
   
    
4. Sell it to us for $20 as a Collector Plane:
   
   
   
    
5. Profit.

 

 

Now everyone and their mom will come out of the woodwork and say: "Yes and plane X also needs engine Y because Z!".

You're not entirely wrong, but really this is what Central needs: a mainstay mid-1918 fighter that can be thrown at the Belgians (and the rest of the Entente) in large numbers. And the way I see it, with the removal of the Albatros D.II Late, the team still owes us an Albatros.

 

Your idea on the DVa is surely replicable for all the Merc planes, particularly the DVII?

 

What a world of difference that would do for server balancing and historic accuracy in 1918. 
 

The HD1 could also become 1917 meta rather than Camels which again can help balancing so we don’t have Flyboys situations where every central plane is a Dr1.

[=LD=Bulldog*]

I like the Hanriot apart from its visibility. Will try it in combat along with the N.17.

 

Out of interest, how does the balloon gun rate against aircraft?

 

Bulldog

[Trooper117]

10 hours ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

And the way I see it, with the removal of the Albatros D.II Late, the team still owes us an Albatros.

 

Agreed... short changed again.

[BMA_Hellbender]

2 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

Your idea on the DVa is surely replicable for all the Merc planes, particularly the DVII?

 

What a world of difference that would do for server balancing and historic accuracy in 1918. 
 

The HD1 could also become 1917 meta rather than Camels which again can help balancing so we don’t have Flyboys situations where every central plane is a Dr1.

Yes, absolutely, the Fokker D.VII 200hp would be ideal, but it’s harder to sell people a downgrade of the Fokker D.VIIF (or Pfalz D.XIIf) compared to an upgrade of the Albatros D.Va. There’s also a case to be made for the Pfalz D.IIIa 200hp, though I still have reservations about its DM. Having both the Albatros D.Va and Pfalz D.IIIa 200hp would be a great package deal.

 

I’m also all for treating the Hanriot as a « Camel light » for balancing purposes, but in fact it would have had the 120hp Le Rhône 9Jb in 1917, same as the Nieuport 23.

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

14 hours ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

And the way I see it, with the removal of the Albatros D.II Late, the team still owes us an Albatros.

 

 

No float Hanriot either.

[BMA_Hellbender]

16 minutes ago, J5_Klugermann said:

No float Hanriot either.

True, though technically the HD.2 didn’t participate in WWI. I still would have liked to have it and the Brandenburg.

 

Also forgot to namedrop @Razneff and @West along with @FlyingShark in the OP (and honorary Belgian @J2_Trupobaw). BMA, assemble!

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

Maybe they will issue collector pontoons at some point in the future.

 

Gotha aileron FFB still borked

Edited October 26, 2023 by J5_Klugermann

[SYN_Vander]

I like the plane a lot. But what I never realized is that we should not (just) compare it with 1918 aircraft -although it was used then and even after the war by the Italians-.

According to Wikipedia:

 

Introduction	June 1916[1]

 

Wow! So it's a precursor to the camel? Who even used this aircraft in 1916?

[BMA_Hellbender]

3 hours ago, J5_Klugermann said:

Gotha aileron FFB still borked

 
@LukeFF could you let the team know about this?

 

 

2 hours ago, SYN_Vander said:

Wow! So it's a precursor to the camel? Who even used this aircraft in 1916?

Nobody, the French didn’t want it as a successor to the Nieuport 17 by the time the first batch was completed, as they went all-in on the SPAD (and a few later versions of the N17 up to the N17bis/23/24/27).

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by =IRFC=Hellbender

[Trooper117]

Another interesting fact... it could be fitted with one or even two Vickers guns.

[LukeFF]

51 minutes ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

could you let the team know about this?

 

Already did, yes.

[BMA_FlyingShark]

Also worth mentioning is that back in the day, the HD1 was the first 3rd party plane developed for RoF.

It was created by members of the Oceanic Wing Squadron, the "O" guys.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[Cynic_Al]

Can the Hanriot's engine can be re-started in a dive, subsequent to being stopped fully?  This luxury is not available in RoF.

[BMA_Hellbender]

5 hours ago, Cynic_Al said:

Can the Hanriot's engine can be re-started in a dive, subsequent to being stopped fully?  This luxury is not available in RoF.

 

I can confirm that this does NOT work in FC either. Once the propeller is stopped there's no way to get it spinning again in the air. I got it to move briefly at around 275km/h but it's not enough for the engine start sequence to complete.

 

Maybe the team could look at this?

[No.23_Triggers]

Didn't try the Hanriot out much yet, but first impressions are a bit mixed...it handles nicely, manoeuvres nicely, and should be pretty competitive vs the Alb D.Va in that respect (and to a lesser extent the Pfalz III, but the latter's energy retention abilities can give the Hanriot some problems). Forward visibility and default rear visibility are atrocious, and it was a bit of a nightmare for sighting in any kind of deflection shot. Didn't try it out vs the D.VII yet - I'm guessing it could do well against the vanilla 7, but will get stomped by the 7F's monster energy retention. 

Overall can initially see the Hanriot being quite threatening in the right hands, but I'd want a lot more stick time before fully making my mind up...!  

[BMA_Hellbender]

22 hours ago, No.23_Triggers said:

Didn't try the Hanriot out much yet, but first impressions are a bit mixed...it handles nicely, manoeuvres nicely, and should be pretty competitive vs the Alb D.Va in that respect (and to a lesser extent the Pfalz III, but the latter's energy retention abilities can give the Hanriot some problems). Forward visibility and default rear visibility are atrocious, and it was a bit of a nightmare for sighting in any kind of deflection shot. Didn't try it out vs the D.VII yet - I'm guessing it could do well against the vanilla 7, but will get stomped by the 7F's monster energy retention. 

Overall can initially see the Hanriot being quite threatening in the right hands, but I'd want a lot more stick time before fully making my mind up...!  

I think that’s a fair assessment. The pilot report of the only airworthy Hanriot also points to forward visibility with the machinegun in the default position not being all that great:

 

https://www.key.aero/article/pilot-report-hanriot-hd-1

 

As for getting much stick time with her (in multiplayer), that will depend on mission makers and their willingness to include it. Both the Belgian and Italian fronts are absent from the sim. Having Belgian Hanriots patrol as far South as Ypres (still part of unoccupied Belgium but defended by the British) wouldn’t have been that unusual, though.

 

The nature of the Belgian front being what it was following the flooding of the Yser plain through the opening of the locks at Nieuport in 1914, meant that the frontline remained largely static until the closing months of the war. Compared to the meat grinder of the Somme, Verdun and Ypres/Passchendaele, the leading cause of death amongst the Belgian army was disease and suicide.

 

Belgian pilots were certainly in a more comfortable position than the infantry, all of them coming from well-off families. Motorcycle racer Jean Olieslagers managed to fly from the first till the last day of the war (initially with his own airplane), logging some 450+ combat sorties and surviving 90+ dogfights. He only claimed 6 kills or so to his name, all of them in a Nieuport, Hanriot or Camel. To be fair the Belgians were not to keen on claiming individual kills, and only those scored behind friendly lines could be added to the tally. They were a weird, dandy bunch.

 

All this to say that the aerial resistance which the Belgians faced was in proportion to the threat they themselves posed to the Germans. The likelihood that a Hanriot ever faced a Fokker Dr.I, D.VIIF, Siemens-Schuckert D.IV or other « elite » plane available in small numbers is essentially zero. It’s indeed a good opponent for the Albatros and Pfalz, though the former in particular needs a later 200hp engine, as they were also the first to receive them in 1918. Another option would be to have an earlier Hanriot with a 1917 120hp Le Rhône 9Jb, making it a fairer match for the 180hp D.Va and upcoming D.III.

 

In my opinion the SPAD VII 180hp (which the Belgians also operated) remained a much more potent machine until the very end of the war, but the merits of this « little Camel » shouldn’t be understated. It’s mostly the Italians who flew the hell out of their license-built Hanriot-Macchis, sometimes even refusing to transition to the SPAD XIII when it became available to them in numbers. Likely the death of Baracca in a SPAD had something to do with that.

 

Overall the « similar » Nieuport 28 was historically a far more significant machine than the Hanriot, being America’s first fighter that operated over an active front against famous German aces, and an actual upgrade over the SPAD VII—but we all know by now how they’ve done that FM dirty in RoF/FC. I wouldn’t expect it to be as maneuverable as the Hanriot, but not bleed energy like a brick either.

 

Thank you for reading my blog.

[Riderocket]

The visibility problems in the Hanriot are less of a problem when you fly VR

[Trooper117]

A nice video for all HD1 lovers...

 

 

[Have_Gun_Will_Travel]

On 11/1/2023 at 2:52 AM, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

I think that’s a fair assessment. The pilot report of the only airworthy Hanriot also points to forward visibility with the machinegun in the default position not being all that great:

 

https://www.key.aero/article/pilot-report-hanriot-hd-1

 

As for getting much stick time with her (in multiplayer), that will depend on mission makers and their willingness to include it. Both the Belgian and Italian fronts are absent from the sim. Having Belgian Hanriots patrol as far South as Ypres (still part of unoccupied Belgium but defended by the British) wouldn’t have been that unusual, though.

 

The nature of the Belgian front being what it was following the flooding of the Yser plain through the opening of the locks at Nieuport in 1914, meant that the frontline remained largely static until the closing months of the war. Compared to the meat grinder of the Somme, Verdun and Ypres/Passchendaele, the leading cause of death amongst the Belgian army was disease and suicide.

 

Belgian pilots were certainly in a more comfortable position than the infantry, all of them coming from well-off families. Motorcycle racer Jean Olieslagers managed to fly from the first till the last day of the war (initially with his own airplane), logging some 450+ combat sorties and surviving 90+ dogfights. He only claimed 6 kills or so to his name, all of them in a Nieuport, Hanriot or Camel. To be fair the Belgians were not to keen on claiming individual kills, and only those scored behind friendly lines could be added to the tally. They were a weird, dandy bunch.

 

All this to say that the aerial resistance which the Belgians faced was in proportion to the threat they themselves posed to the Germans. The likelihood that a Hanriot ever faced a Fokker Dr.I, D.VIIF, Siemens-Schuckert D.IV or other « elite » plane available in small numbers is essentially zero. It’s indeed a good opponent for the Albatros and Pfalz, though the former in particular needs a later 200hp engine, as they were also the first to receive them in 1918. Another option would be to have an earlier Hanriot with a 1917 120hp Le Rhône 9Jb, making it a fairer match for the 180hp D.Va and upcoming D.III.

 

In my opinion the SPAD VII 180hp (which the Belgians also operated) remained a much more potent machine until the very end of the war, but the merits of this « little Camel » shouldn’t be understated. It’s mostly the Italians who flew the hell out of their license-built Hanriot-Macchis, sometimes even refusing to transition to the SPAD XIII when it became available to them in numbers. Likely the death of Baracca in a SPAD had something to do with that.

 

Overall the « similar » Nieuport 28 was historically a far more significant machine than the Hanriot, being America’s first fighter that operated over an active front against famous German aces, and an actual upgrade over the SPAD VII—but we all know by now how they’ve done that FM dirty in RoF/FC. I wouldn’t expect it to be as maneuverable as the Hanriot, but not bleed energy like a brick either.

 

Thank you for reading my blog.

I did not know the Belgian pilots all came from wealthy families. 
For the other Entente countries surely it was from all walks of life 

[No.23_Starling]

2 hours ago, Have_Gun_Will_Travel said:

I did not know the Belgian pilots all came from wealthy families. 
For the other Entente countries surely it was from all walks of life 

Yes and no. The majority of officers in the RFC would have come from the wealthier classes as was true of officers more generally. The USAS initially insisted on pilots having a university education (see Parsons’ autobiography). The French had decapitated their poshos so no surprise that the top scorer of the war came from a modest home (Fonck). I think a fair number of German officers came via the cavalry which had strong aristocratic links.

[Have_Gun_Will_Travel]

21 hours ago, US103_Rummell said:

Yes and no. The majority of officers in the RFC would have come from the wealthier classes as was true of officers more generally. The USAS initially insisted on pilots having a university education (see Parsons’ autobiography). The French had decapitated their poshos so no surprise that the top scorer of the war came from a modest home (Fonck). I think a fair number of German officers came via the cavalry which had strong aristocratic links.

Thanks for clearing that up. I can only really relate to the French by the sounds of it.

All the wealthy, aristocratic and well to do pilots I really dislike. 
Plebs like myself would have ended up in the infantry I would guess. (Coming from a working class family)

I’ll stick flying for the French!