Correcting the 109s DB605A(S) with allowed Start&Notleistung from 1min -> 3min

[the_emperor]

I would like to kindly ask to correct (or at least review) 

the current 1min limit of the Start&Notleistung (1.42/2800) for the DB605a (when Start&Notleistung is allowed DB605A, starting ~ 2nd half of 1943) to the correct 3min limit.

Its been debated sind 2018 and documents have been brought forward since then that support the 3min limin but

Thus far no document could have been found and produced to support that the cleared DB605a has the one minute limit but ample to support the 3min limit:

 

FM Reports have already been submitted in January and April

 

Many Thanks

Edited October 30, 2023 by the_emperor

[the_emperor]

Will this get reviewed and maybe fixed with the next patch?

[LukeFF]

I'll ask and see.

[the_emperor]

Any news? Shouldnt that be an easier fix? 

[LukeFF]

Sorry, nothing new to report, but I'll try again.

[Sgt_Joch]

On 10/5/2023 at 8:55 AM, the_emperor said:

 

Its been debated sind 2018 and documents have been brought forward since then that support the 3min limin but

 

 

Not sure why you are on about, but every official Luftwaffe flight manual in 43-44 only shows a 1 minute limit.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/Bf109_G4-R3_G6-R3_Bedienungsvorshrift-Fl_Feb_1944.jpg

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/BF109_G-2-4-6_Bedienungsvorschrift_June43.pdf

 

You will not find any official documents  that shows that the DB605 engine had a 3 minute limit so there is nothing to "fix".

 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Sgt_Joch

[the_emperor]

5 hours ago, Sgt_Joch said:

Not sure why you are on about, but every official Luftwaffe flight manual in 43-44 only shows a 1 minute limit.

 

No, not every manual shows the 1min limit. The 1min limit is only shown in manuals when Start&Notleistung is blocked thus far (two is what you produced so far).

I am talking about the engine/planes with cleared Start&Notleistung starting to appear ~second half of 1943. So that should be blocked completely till then.

If you can produce documents that show the 1min limit with cleared Start&Notleistung that would be finde.

If you care to take a look (which you seemed to have ignored):

 

sometimes there is no time limit given,

sometimes it is said "for a short duration" with no explicit time limit

which is then probably 3min, due to other manuals or markings on the gauges.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by the_emperor

[Yogiflight]

5 hours ago, the_emperor said:

No, not every manual shows the 1min limit. The 1min limit is only shown in manuals when Start&Notleistung is blocked thus far (two is what you produced so far).

I am talking about the engine/planes with cleared Start&Notleistung starting to appear ~second half of 1943.

The question is, when the first manual @Sgt_Joch posted, is from february 1944, why is maximum power still blocked?

[the_emperor]

29 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

The question is, when the first manual @Sgt_Joch posted, is from february 1944, why is maximum power still blocked?

unfortunately the manual is not complete, but it seems to be for the specialised reconnaissance version. 

Regular version are cleared starting second half of 1943 and the DB605 in general is cleared by 1944

with an upgraded cooling system. 

The time frame is certainly debatable. But the 1min limit I have yet to see for the cleared Start&Notleistung

[Sgt_Joch]

no there was only ever a 1 minute limit or it was blocked totally until mid-late 43, so the current limit is WAD, no bug, nothing to fix.

 

The issue here is that you are confused by all the documents. German pilots received a lot of documents related to the operation of their planes. The actual operating limits were in the pilot handbook "Bedienungsvorshrift". All the pilot handbooks available until feb. 44 either show it is blocked or a 1 minute limit.

 

If the Luftwaffe had approved a 3 minute limit, there would be proof, either an updated pilot handbook or some sort of official document stating that. Unless you have that, you are just wasting everyone's time.

[the_emperor]

50 minutes ago, Sgt_Joch said:

no there was only ever a 1 minute limit or it was blocked totally until mid-late 43

 

I agree with you, that Start&Notleistung was blocked till ~mid ´43. Certain engines/planes which did not get upgraded engines may have kept that block.

But do you have any documents that show the 1min limit after that? as I said the time frame is certainly debatable as the upgraded engines/planes start trickle in and reach the frontlines.

So I ask you again, do you have any documents that show the 1min limit for the DB605a (or any plane that utilizes that engine e.g. the HE-177 like I did) with cleared Start&Notleistung?

 

 

 

[the_emperor]

Added some more pictures in the FM-Thread

the later F-4 should probably also receive the 3min Start&Notleistung setting.

Will this get reviewed any time in the future?

[LukeFF]

1 hour ago, the_emperor said:

Added some more pictures in the FM-Thread

the later F-4 should probably also receive the 3min Start&Notleistung setting.

Will this get reviewed any time in the future?

 

Things like this are on the list to be reviewed, but ultimately it's up to the engineers and the producer to decide what/if any changes are made. 

[the_emperor]

Many Thanks @LukeFF

[ITAF_Rani]

On 12/20/2023 at 3:59 PM, the_emperor said:

I am talking about the engine/planes with cleared Start&Notleistung starting to appear ~second half of 1943. So that should be blocked completely till then

The devs could add an engine feature to enable Start&Notleistung, when we select plane loadout in the sim . This will expand the engine limit to 3 min.

In MP contest the administrator server could decide to enable or no this option.

[the_emperor]

2 hours ago, ITAF_Rani said:

The devs could add an engine feature to enable Start&Notleistung, when we select plane loadout in the sim . This will expand the engine limit to 3 min.

In MP contest the administrator server could decide to enable or no this option.

That would probably a wise choice.

Have Start&Notleistung blocked per default for G-4/6 and make Start&Notleistung cleared (3min) an engine option to chose, so it can be used for the correct time frame for mission/MP builders

[Kurfurst]

3 hours ago, the_emperor said:

That would probably a wise choice.

Have Start&Notleistung blocked per default for G-4/6 and make Start&Notleistung cleared (3min) an engine option to chose, so it can be used for the correct time frame for mission/MP builders

 

This makes some sense for the very early G-4, as it came before the release of the Startleistung in the Spring of 1943 for 109s. Less so for the G-6 which came about within a month or so of the release, and the modifications that come with it, which most of them already had as a factory default, and the earlier ones were retrofitted. Both G-4 and G-6 were originally introduced to represent the state of the aircraft at around the Battle of Kuban, so, by mid-1943.

 

OTOH since the remaining G-2s were still very much around after the release well through 1943, they should also get such an option for Startleistung.

Performance wise, it would give you an almost K-4, in 1943, and I am sure many would love to have that.

 

But its a big fuss without real benefits, as the G-4 (which currently has the full rating) represents the late/leftover G-2s (with, by then, usually fixed tailwheels and Startleistung enabled) really well, and the real life difference between them and the G-2s at the same time period were minimal (different radio set and that is it).

 

So personally I would say the most sensible thing to do is to leave it as it is and just fix the time limit for Startleistung from 1 to 3 minutes.

Edited January 10, 2024 by VO101Kurfurst

[the_emperor]

18 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

So personally I would say the most sensible thing to do is to leave it as it is and just fix the time limit for Startleistung from 1 to 3 minutes.

This should also be a quicker and easier fix. 
 

What document does this come from?

and do you happen to have the document you quoted some time ago and cold post that?:

Bisher gesperrte Start- und Notleistung DB 605 kann nach Durchführung des Einfliegens von 10 Stunden entsprechend TAGTTIC 6., Nr. *, lfd. Nr. 705/43, entnommen ist jedoch nur in äussersten Notfällen und keinesfalls länger als drei Minuten zu entnehmen. Voraussetzung ist Vorhandensein des Überdruckventilles auf Schmierstofftank / Aenderung Bf 109G, Nr. 297. Drahtzug für Start- und Notleistung am Ladedruckregler ist einzuhängen und nötigenfalls Ladedruckregler auf 1,42 ata einzuregulieren. [...] Auf Ladedruck- und Drehzahlmesser sind für Notleistung die entsprechende Markierungen anzubringen. Zum Einstellen möglichts Spezialisten heranziehen. F.S. Gen. TT, Abt. G, vom 28.5.1943. betr. Start- und Notleistung DB 605 in Bf 109G is ausser Kraft gesetzt und zu vernichten.'

 

TMGL Nr. 44 07 019 vom 14.3.1944., S. 49.,

BArch RL 3/1293.

Via M. Baumgartl.

[Kurfurst]

22 minutes ago, the_emperor said:

This should also be a quicker and easier fix. 
 

What document does this come from?

 

 

That is all that relevant (its more of a memo of decisions made) and it comes from high level meetings in March 1943. So Startleistung for the 109G was definitely released and used on individual aircraft by around March 1943, i.e. those which have received the necessary modifications, given the requirement to report aircraft individually which have the full Startleistung cleared.

 

Based on other reports on the matter it is clear to me that the release of Startleistung in the 109s was a sort of a quick and simplified solution (simple retrofitting of an overpressure valves to the oil system, to maintain solid lubrication of main bearings) and so it got it early and by July 1943 probably all of them got it. While in the case of the 110 and He 177 it took longer to work out and test the solutions - which was an oil centrifuge - so I suspect the early 1944 order below came as a final confirmation that all engines on all aircraft without exception were built with or retrofitted.

 

The overpressure valves to the oil system could not be fitted to the G-4/R3 and G-6/R3 which were long range recce versions with an extra fuel tank, so hence why you do not see the release the Startleistung released in in their operating manuals even in 1944 (and hence why some like to throw and wave that single manual around, to further their agenda  ).

 

The matter is confusing a bit because several problems existed, and several solutions were developed for it, often parallel to each other, some of which were dead end, and different tests were made for the 3 main types, with very likely different release dates. The early 'band aid' solution was fitting overpressure valves to the 605A in the 109G, and then a full oil deaerator to the 605D in the late 109s (and also 605As in 110s and 177s).

 

22 minutes ago, the_emperor said:

and do you happen to have the document you quoted some time ago and cold post that?:

 

Unfortunately no, but it should be available from the BA-MA under reference RL 3/1293, but that is not accessible ATM (perhaps someone in North Germany could check it). Its a footnote in the new Baumgartl 109 book, which I highly recommend BTW. 

 

Edited January 10, 2024 by VO101Kurfurst

[the_emperor]

2 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

That is all that relevant (its more of a memo of decisions made) and it comes from high level meetings in March 1943. So Startleistung for the 109G was definitely released and used on individual aircraft by around March 1943

 That would explain why the 3min marking appears in the BF 109 G-5 und G-6 Schusswaffenanlage Bedienvorschrift-Wa (March/April of 1943)

 

 

 

[Yogiflight]

5 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Based on other reports on the matter it is clear to me that the release of Startleistung in the 109s was a sort of a quick and simplified solution (simple retrofitting of an overpressure valves to the oil system, to maintain solid lubrication of main bearings) and so it got it early and by July 1943 probably all of them got it. While in the case of the 110 and He 177 it took longer to work out and test the solutions - which was an oil centrifuge - so I suspect the early 1944 order below came as a final confirmation that all engines on all aircraft without exception were built with or retrofitted.

So if I understand it correctly, the Bf 110 G2 shouldn't have 1.42 ata Start- und Notleistung in game?

[the_emperor]

19 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

The overpressure valves to the oil system could not be fitted to the G-4/R3 and G-6/R3 which were long range recce versions with an extra fuel tank

Is there a reason it wasnt fitted to the long range recon versions?

different oil system/tank?

Edited January 11, 2024 by the_emperor

[Kurfurst]

On 1/10/2024 at 10:10 PM, Yogiflight said:

So if I understand it correctly, the Bf 110 G2 shouldn't have 1.42 ata Start- und Notleistung in game?

 

My impression is that the Startleistung release might have came later in the 110 than the 109 - but I am not sure because it is never stated in such clear terms. What is evident from mid-1943 meetings that the outer oil circulation of the 109 could be fixed with fast solution (Fo 870 cooler and Oil overpressure valves), and fitting of an oil deaerator (as used later in the AS/D engines) was expected to provide a further 30% improvement.

 

We also know that 109 manuals were updated no longer bother banning the Startleistung by that time, and that even a later clearance makes no other perquisite than the fitting of the oil overpressure valves - which the 109 already had fitted since the Spring 1943. However on the 110 the oil overpressure valves could not be fitted, so fitting of an oil deaerator and further testing was seen as a solution to lubrication problems. So it may have happened later 1943 on 110, or maybe it was OK and the Startleistung was already released at the same time. In short, we do not know what the final fix for the 110 was. 

 

Note that none of these records state something clearly as in some book because these are all working documents are records. but don't quote me on record on that. I am not sure because I really didn't pay more than fleeting attention to the 110s and I would have to re-check and go through literally thousands of pages scattered around in many folders.

 

The Startleistung relaease is complicated as it is, as they had

(i) multiple issues to be fixed

(ii) parallel developments for several possible fixes

(iii) done by parallel testing institutions

(iv) running several timelines

(v) on several different types. 

 

To make things more complicated they kept investigating alternate solutions parallel to each even though one solution was found, but it was not necessarily good for all planes - and to make things even more complex they are constantly introducing new sources of trouble - poorer oil for example -  when changing something in production, usually to making stuff cheaper in wartime.

Edited February 24, 2024 by VO101Kurfurst

[Kurfurst]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:14 AM, the_emperor said:

Is there a reason it wasnt fitted to the long range recon versions?

different oil system/tank?

Yes, the /R3 ‘super long range’ recce aircraft had an additional oil tank installed in the place of the cowl MG/munitions so it wasn’t a closed oil circuit anymore I think.

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

On 1/10/2024 at 4:36 PM, the_emperor said:

Bisher gesperrte Start- und Notleistung DB 605 kann nach Durchführung des Einfliegens von 10 Stunden entsprechend TAGTTIC 6., Nr. *, lfd. Nr. 705/43, entnommen ist jedoch nur in äussersten Notfällen und keinesfalls länger als drei Minuten zu entnehmen. Voraussetzung ist Vorhandensein des Überdruckventilles auf Schmierstofftank / Aenderung Bf 109G, Nr. 297. Drahtzug für Start- und Notleistung am Ladedruckregler ist einzuhängen und nötigenfalls Ladedruckregler auf 1,42 ata einzuregulieren. [...] Auf Ladedruck- und Drehzahlmesser sind für Notleistung die entsprechende Markierungen anzubringen. Zum Einstellen möglichts Spezialisten heranziehen. F.S. Gen. TT, Abt. G, vom 28.5.1943. betr. Start- und Notleistung DB 605 in Bf 109G is ausser Kraft gesetzt und zu vernichten.'

 

"Previously restricted takeoff and emergency power DB 605 can be utilized after completing a run-in of 10 hours according to TAGTTIC 6., No. *, consecutive [lfd. meaning laufend] No. 705/43. However, it should only be taken in extreme emergencies and under no circumstances for longer than three minutes. A prerequisite is the presence of the pressure relief valve on the lubricant tank / Modification Bf 109G, No. 297. The wire rope for takeoff and emergency power on the throttle lever is to be hooked in and if necessary the throttle lever is to be set to 1.42 ata. [...] Markings corresponding to emergency power are to be applied to the boost and RPM indicators. For adjustment, consult specialists if possible. F.S. Gen. TT, Dept. G, dated May 28, 1943, regarding takeoff and emergency power DB 605 in Bf 109G is hereby revoked and to be destroyed."

 

I think this is a very solid case for increasing Start- und Notleistung to 3 minutes in the G6 Late or AS at the least.
@VO101KurfurstDo you know from when exactly in 43 (I assume 705/43 means it's TAGTTIC 6. number 705 released in 43) this was released?

It may just be an indication the G4 and G6 ought to have 3 minutes of Start- und Notleistung as well.

Edited February 27, 2024 by FTC_ChilliBalls

[the_emperor]

48 minutes ago, FTC_ChilliBalls said:

705/43 means it's TAGTTIC 6. number 705 released in 43

This may just refer to the run in procedure itself and might have nothing to do withe the lift of the Star&Notleistung ban.

but markings on the instruments as described start to come up around late spring/mid 43 so many engines will still have the ban until overhaul. I dont know how many G-4 are still left by that time frame but the March 43 manual for the G-5/6 show those markings so maybe you could say that at least the G-6 should have the 3min Star&Notl. limit.

[Roland_HUNter]

54 minutes ago, FTC_ChilliBalls said:

 

"Previously restricted takeoff and emergency power DB 605 can be utilized after completing a run-in of 10 hours according to TAGTTIC 6., No. *, consecutive [lfd. meaning laufend] No. 705/43. However, it should only be taken in extreme emergencies and under no circumstances for longer than three minutes. A prerequisite is the presence of the pressure relief valve on the lubricant tank / Modification Bf 109G, No. 297. The wire rope for takeoff and emergency power on the throttle lever is to be hooked in and if necessary the throttle lever is to be set to 1.42 ata. [...] Markings corresponding to emergency power are to be applied to the boost and RPM indicators. For adjustment, consult specialists if possible. F.S. Gen. TT, Dept. G, dated May 28, 1943, regarding takeoff and emergency power DB 605 in Bf 109G is hereby revoked and to be destroyed."

 

I think this is a very solid case for increasing Start- und Notleistung to 3 minutes in the G6 Late or AS at the least.
@VO101KurfurstDo you know from when exactly in 43 (I assume 705/43 means it's TAGTTIC 6. number 705 released in 43) this was released?

It may just be an indication the G4 and G6 ought to have 3 minutes of Start- und Notleistung as well.

3 Min for F-4 and G-2+ should be treated separately.
For the DB-601 for the F-4, it was limited to 1.3 ata for a time. 1.42 was restricted for some time. Until 1941 december maybe? I do not remember correctly.
About DB-601N for F-2, I don't know anything about that engine and limits.

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

22 minutes ago, Roland_HUNter said:

3 Min for F-4 and G-2+ should be treated separately.
For the DB-601 for the F-4, it was limited to 1.3 ata for a time. 1.42 was restricted for some time. Until 1941 december maybe? I do not remember correctly.
About DB-601N for F-2, I don't know anything about that engine and limits.

I mean, what I translated is about the DB 605A and the entire thread here is about the DB 605A and AS, so how did you even get the idea I was talking about the 601? 

 

  

24 minutes ago, the_emperor said:

This may just refer to the run in procedure itself and might have nothing to do withe the lift of the Star&Notleistung ban.

but markings on the instruments as described start to come up around late spring/mid 43 so many engines will still have the ban until overhaul. I dont know how many G-4 are still left by that time frame but the March 43 manual for the G-5/6 show those markings so maybe you could say that at least the G-6 should have the 3min Star&Notl. limit.

Good point, perhaps @VO101Kurfurst could check whether the footnote in the Baumgartl 109 book he referred to earlier is dated. Good academic practice at least gives a year, sometimes months are also given.

Edited February 27, 2024 by FTC_ChilliBalls

[Roland_HUNter]

2 hours ago, FTC_ChilliBalls said:

I mean, what I translated is about the DB 605A and the entire thread here is about the DB 605A and AS, so how did you even get the idea I was talking about the 601? 

Oh, yes. You are right. My mistake.

[the_emperor]

Though I have now found and posted numerous pictures of Bf 109 F-4s with the 3min markings as well. so later variants should probably have a DB601E with that limit too

Edited February 28, 2024 by the_emperor

[the_emperor]

On 1/10/2024 at 4:51 PM, VO101Kurfurst said:

The overpressure valves to the oil system could not be fitted to the G-4/R3 and G-6/R3 which were long range recce versions with an extra fuel tank, so hence why you do not see the release the Startleistung released in in their operating manuals even in 1944 (and hence why some like to throw and wave that single manual around, to further their agenda  ).

 

On 2/24/2024 at 6:54 PM, VO101Kurfurst said:

Yes, the /R3 ‘super long range’ recce aircraft had an additional oil tank installed in the place of the cowl MG/munitions so it wasn’t a closed oil circuit anymore I think.

 

Jup...the increased range called for additional oil supply for the prolonged oil consumption due to longer flight endurance

so one might say that overall the ban was general still in place in the first half of 43 but individual AC that came fresh from the line or got overhauled could tap into Start&Notl.

Edited February 29, 2024 by the_emperor

[the_emperor]

On 1/10/2024 at 4:51 PM, VO101Kurfurst said:

The overpressure valves to the oil system could not be fitted to the G-4/R3 and G-6/R3 which were long range recce versions with an extra fuel tank, so hence why you do not see the release the Startleistung released in in their operating manuals even in 1944 (and hence why some like to throw and wave that single manual around, to further their agenda  ).

 

You mean this, right.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/Bf109_G4-R3_G6-R3_Bedienungsvorshrift-Fl_Feb_1944.jpg

 

 

and with this manual out of the race.

this remains the last for the universal ban of Start&Notleistung

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/BF109_G-2-4-6_Bedienungsvorschrift_June43.pdf

 

after that the manuals show Start&Notleistung as cleared for standard fighter versions (and He-177 that uses the same engine and give us a manual with 3min limit beginning in August 43)

Edited February 29, 2024 by the_emperor

[Kurfurst]

On 2/28/2024 at 2:52 PM, the_emperor said:

so one might say that overall the ban was general still in place in the first half of 43 but individual AC that came fresh from the line or got overhauled could tap into Start&Notl.

 

Indeed that was the case - see Ubersichtliste der Anderungsanweisungen Bf 109 from 1 July 1943, and Nr. 297. modification to the Bf 109G (accepted by RLM 24 March 1943), 'Installation of the pressure relief valve on the lubricant tank', (note that this is the same modification that is mentioned as the ony pre-requieste for using Startleistung mentioned in 1944 global release document (see below).

 

It is to be installed at the 'holder' (i.e. whoever has the plane), with listing of G-1, G-2, G-4 and G-6 serial numbers produced by Messerschmitt / ERLA / WNF plants that are to be still modified.

 

In short the modification was accepted in March 24, 1943, and the July update of the modifications list it; the earlier March 1943 GLM meeting that request report of the serials of individual aircraft already released for Startleistung indicates that modification had already taken place on some aircraft, and the rest were retrofitted at the troops / factories / depots over time. 

 

 

 

 

On 2/27/2024 at 8:03 PM, FTC_ChilliBalls said:

 

"Previously restricted takeoff and emergency power DB 605 can be utilized after completing a run-in of 10 hours according to TAGTTIC 6., No. *, consecutive [lfd. meaning laufend] No. 705/43. However, it should only be taken in extreme emergencies and under no circumstances for longer than three minutes. A prerequisite is the presence of the pressure relief valve on the lubricant tank / Modification Bf 109G, No. 297. The wire rope for takeoff and emergency power on the throttle lever is to be hooked in and if necessary the throttle lever is to be set to 1.42 ata. [...] Markings corresponding to emergency power are to be applied to the boost and RPM indicators. For adjustment, consult specialists if possible. F.S. Gen. TT, Dept. G, dated May 28, 1943, regarding takeoff and emergency power DB 605 in Bf 109G is hereby revoked and to be destroyed."

 

 

On 2/27/2024 at 8:03 PM, FTC_ChilliBalls said:

I think this is a very solid case for increasing Start- und Notleistung to 3 minutes in the G6 Late or AS at the least.
@VO101KurfurstDo you know from when exactly in 43 (I assume 705/43 means it's TAGTTIC 6. number 705 released in 43) this was released?

It may just be an indication the G4 and G6 ought to have 3 minutes of Start- und Notleistung as well.

 

I am not positive but the reference number may well refer to the date - maybe 7th of May 1943 (705/43)?

 

On 2/28/2024 at 4:15 PM, the_emperor said:

 

You mean this, right.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/Bf109_G4-R3_G6-R3_Bedienungsvorshrift-Fl_Feb_1944.jpg

 

Yes.

 

On 2/28/2024 at 4:15 PM, the_emperor said:

and with this manual out of the race.

this remains the last for the universal ban of Start&Notleistung

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/me109/BF109_G-2-4-6_Bedienungsvorschrift_June43.pdf

 

This manual was last updated in April 1943, at which point the Nr. 297. may not have been universally fitted or the prints of manuals were not yet updated; I suppose they kept using the same manuals (lest it goes it into waste, it's already printed!) but usually they added modification amendments  as seperate sheets, when the modification was present (or at times I have seen they have crossed obsolate text with a pencil).

 

On 2/28/2024 at 4:15 PM, the_emperor said:

after that the manuals show Start&Notleistung as cleared for standard fighter versions (and He-177 that uses the same engine and give us a manual with 3min limit beginning in August 43)

 

Indeed. To add to this, Rechlin was already testing the DB 605AM (then called G) quite happily and without any trouble at 1800 PS output, bench running it to 100 hours. How was that possible, if the engine was supposedly not able to run at even 1475 in service..? There are not much of a discussion at the GL meethings after that on the release of Startleistung either.

 

So, I am fairly convinced the 605A was cleared for Startleistung in March 1943 already for the 109G and they were retrofitted one by one with the pressure release valve that increased lubricant pressure somewhat, and as such served as 'duct tape' until a more finite solution (oil dearator, as fitted to AS/D series) was possible. 

[FTC_ChilliBalls]

1 hour ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

I am not positive but the reference number may well refer to the date - maybe 7th of May 1943 (705/43)?

 

Does the Baumgartl 109 Book give any date for that quote?

[the_emperor]

23 hours ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Indeed that was the case - see Ubersichtliste der Anderungsanweisungen Bf 109 from 1 July 1943, and Nr. 297. modification to the Bf 109G (accepted by RLM 24 March 1943), 'Installation of the pressure relief valve on the lubricant tank', (note that this is the same modification that is mentioned as the ony pre-requieste for using Startleistung mentioned in 1944 global release document (see below).

 

It is to be installed at the 'holder' (i.e. whoever has the plane), with listing of G-1, G-2, G-4 and G-6 serial numbers produced by Messerschmitt / ERLA / WNF plants that are to be still modified.

 

In short the modification was accepted in March 24, 1943, and the July update of the modifications list it; the earlier March 1943 GLM meeting that request report of the serials of individual aircraft already released for Startleistung indicates that modification had already taken place on some aircraft, and the rest were retrofitted at the troops / factories / depots over time. 

 

this explains why we have the 3min marking already in  the Bf 109 G-5/6 Schusswaffenanlage Bedienvorschrift Wa of March 1943 

Edited March 3, 2024 by the_emperor

[Roland_HUNter]

To sum up:

F-2 stay as it is? Or when the F-4 was authorized for 1.42 in 1941, was the F-2 as well? (I know its a different engine, topic but it has the same "problem")
F-4 from the xy month of 1941 would be 1.42 ata for 3 minutes?
G-2/4/6 from March 1943 would get 3 minutes on 1.42 ata?

[the_emperor]

I would say the G-2 should stay as it is, as a good representation  of the earlier DB605a development.

For the G-4/6 it would be the easiest and fastest to change the  1 to 3 minutes. 

By now its up to the devs whether they implement this change or represent a reasonable explanation and documentation why the 1min limit is in place and will stay as people have done here for the 3min limit.  

Edited March 3, 2024 by the_emperor

[Roland_HUNter]

7 hours ago, the_emperor said:

I would say the G-2 should stay as it is, as a good representation  of the earlier DB605a development.

For the G-4/6 it would be the easiest and fastest to change the  1 to 3 minutes. 

By now its up to the devs whether they implement this change or represent a reasonable explanation and documentation why the 1min limit is in place and will stay as people have done here for the 3min limit.  

G-2: engine modi like for the P-40, from 1943?

[the_emperor]

7 hours ago, Roland_HUNter said:

G-2: engine modi like for the P-40, from 1943?

By 43 the tailwheel was fixed and wings and gears often changed for the bigger and less angeled wheels. 
though many would like to see a sleek G2 with Star&Notleistung  but the harsh airfield conditions demanded for the tougher landing gear. 

[Roland_HUNter]

12 hours ago, the_emperor said:

By 43 the tailwheel was fixed and wings and gears often changed for the bigger and less angeled wheels. 
though many would like to see a sleek G2 with Star&Notleistung  but the harsh airfield conditions demanded for the tougher landing gear. 

You are right, many G-2 had bigger wheels like this:

 

 

But:

 

We do not know how much of it has been converted.

Why am I saying this?

G-2 was produced from 1942 may from 1943 feb.
Based on factory datas it says: from 1942 june until 1942 dec.
Werknummers: 10319-14850.

If this is right, the 14850 was the last 109 from the G-2.

So:

 

 

This G-2 is from the last batch, and has no bulged wings or fixed tail wheel.

 

Or this:

Hptm. Hans Hermann Schmidt was shot down by Russian anti-aircraft fire over the Fischer Peninsula in this aircraft on 11.01.1944 and was taken prisoner of war.
Registration number: probably GJ+QQ
(based on W.Nr. 14784 with the registration GJ+QB)

 

Or this:

Additional information:
Three aircraft take off in Otopeni (Bucharest) in January 1944.

 

Or this:

 

The photo was taken on March 19, 1943 in Malmilla.

The machine was delivered on March 9, 1943 and was written off due to a crash landing on October 18, 1946.

Edited March 4, 2024 by LukeFF
swastikas all over the place