Newbie-?s: Can I turn off AA, but still keep it enemy (yes!)

[Roshko]

I've lifted a great mission, generated by PWCG. Flying a Yak, you're to attack railroad facilities in a Kuban large (not big) city.

I am going to create a series of "attack ground" training missions based on it.

The missions will get progressively more challenging

1. Nice weather, AAA not firing
2. Bad weather, AAA not firing
3. Nice weather, AAA is firing
4. Bad weather, AAA is firing

I  don't want to delete the enemy AAAs, I want them to be around, and I want to give the player a sense of accomplishment if he takes them out. So it would suit my purpose best, if I could have them registered as enemies, but have them not firing.

Can it be done?
 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Roshko

[Sketch]

Yes, it's possible. You just need to make sure your AAA units are set to "high" Priority via a Force Complete MCU.

 

On Begin Play, my AAA units (that have unlimited ammo) are told to look for any enemy air targets within 3k via a Command Attack Area MCU. When I created this Attack Area, I set the Priority of the AAA units to "Low". 

 

Here the AAA units are set to Low priority and will engage any enemy fighters.

 

 

When we're ready to have the AAA units not fire at enemy targets, we can set their Priority to "High". To do this, we just need a Force Complete MCU.

 

When a flare is fired, the AAA units' Priority has been adjusted from their initial "Low" setting, to "High" via the Force Complete MCU.

 

 

I have included my test case for you to use or reverse engineer:

Can_AAA_Turn_Off.zip

 

 

I have also included a video demonstration below. If you have questions feel free to reach out.

 

 

 

[Roshko]

That's just awesome - thanks man!

I'll check it out first thing tomorrow (it's 2 am here, and I've just flown a 40 min. pwcg mission in complete darkness)

I'm a newbie, so I haven't heard about the Force Complete-command before. Also it sounds counterintuitive that a priority of high, will cause them to hold fire Are you changing the priority for high AND setting them to focus on ground targets? I'll have to check that out! At any rate I would never have figured this out myself. I'll reverse engineer your test case tomorrow. In my use case, the trigger can be the mission begin command I would think.

Thank you once again, what an awesome answer and thorough explanation!


 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Roshko

[Roshko]

Heh - Couldn't help but watching some of your youtube-vids - pure gold from my perspective! ?

[Roshko]

21 hours ago, Sketch said:

If you have questions feel free to reach out.

 

I did it -  and I do!

Here's my testcase.

I've wrapped it up as a group and attached it to this thread (the crossed out MCUs are for debug and can be deleted). I am also attaching my current testmission, for anyone curious.

 

But some questions came op while making my testmission:
 

1. What is a realistic or suitable range for AA in general?
    
2. Is it only vehicles with AA in their name that will shoot at planes, or will the odd haubitzer also do it?
    
3. How does the random box in the timers' advanced properties work?
    
4. Is there any way to duplicate an object or MCU with it's target/object links intact?
    
5. Can AA have a leader, like planes or motorcades can? That way I'd only have to disable him?
    
6. In my testmission, I tried getting the messers to strafe the AAs and my plane, but the only way I could get them to attack was if I gave them bombs. I experienced the same in a PWCG mission. I was the leader of 4 yaks, and I simply could not get my wing to strafe after bombing. They would constantly yell out "Attacking this and that" - but I never saw tracers from them. How can I get a group of fighters to strafe ground targets in my mission?

 

Here's a demo where I cycle the AA on and off - it works flawlessly

 

 

Turn_off_AA_demo_mission.zip Turn_off_AA_group.zip

Edited August 31, 2023 by Roshko

[Sketch]

Let me see if I can answer some of your questions.

 

What is a realistic or suitable range for AA in general?

The developers have already set the range for all vehicles. I've attempted to get the nearest 500m distance for most vehicles. You can see my research here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bjt4tMz0JwXfN80FnpB9Oo4lupGdgE3ybcDRFqyvvro/edit?usp=sharing

 

Is it only vehicles with AA in their name that will shoot at planes, or will the odd haubitzer also do it?

That same database will tell you what weapon type the vehicle is, if it's WW1 based, which faction used it, and more.

 

How does the random box in the timers' advanced properties work?

It's the probability that that specific timer will fire. It's an advanced topic for creating randomization in your missions. For now, I would leave it alone.

 

Is there any way to duplicate an object or MCU with it's target/object links intact?

Yes, you can save the group, and all information - including its x and y z location - can be reimported multiple times into your mission as a group.

 

Can AA have a leader, like planes or motorcades can? That way I'd only have to disable him?

Yes, I did not do this to help you understand what the Force Complete MCU is doing. Note that using Parent-Child relationship connections between entities does not work with the Spawner MCU. (Thank you for correcting my mistake, @AEthelraedUnraed. I did intend for it to say not.)

 

In my testmission, I tried getting the messers to strafe the AAs and my plane, but the only way I could get them to attack was if I gave them bombs. I experienced the same in a PWCG mission. I was the leader of 4 yaks, and I simply could not get my wing to strafe after bombing. They would constantly yell out "Attacking this and that" - but I never saw tracers from them. How can I get a group of fighters to strafe ground targets in my mission?

Most likely we can get the AI to run a strafing attack by using low and high priority via force complete, or a command MCU (such as cmd Attack or cmd Attack Area). AI can be funky to get it to do exactly what you want it to do.

 

 

 

Good luck in your mission building, and if you have more questions just ask. I also recommend reading up on the mission editor manual. You can read @JimTM amazing unofficial mission editor manual here -> 

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Sketch

[Roshko]

Awesome, thnks!

I am already using @JimTM's great guide.

With duplicating an object, I meant, like you copy/paste them. When you've created one AA hooked up to the on/off routine, then creating a bunch, all with the same hookup.
Saving them out in a group won't keep their connections to anything that's not saved with them. I don't think it's possible, but would be a nice functionality to have tho.

[Stonehouse]

38 minutes ago, Roshko said:

Awesome, thnks!

I am already using @JimTM's great guide.

With duplicating an object, I meant, like you copy/paste them. When you've created one AA hooked up to the on/off routine, then creating a bunch, all with the same hookup.
Saving them out in a group won't keep their connections to anything that's not saved with them. I don't think it's possible, but would be a nice functionality to have tho.

 

Just one important thing to note with AAA. It is not only the effective weapon range you need to consider but also the trigger range to activate and deactivate the unit. In vanilla career and QMB missions it is quite limited, and this especially disadvantages heavy AAA due to the relatively slow rotation rate of the guns. For example, a Flak37/88 could and did engage aerial targets out to 8-10000m (25000 to 30000 ft, noting that this was usually a box barrage type attack which is not available in game) in real life, however vanilla missions often give the gun an activation range of 5000 or 6000m with an attack range the same. The Flak37 has a rotation rate in game of 9 deg per sec. So, if the gun is facing away from the oncoming aircraft when it activates (very likely if the mission is not a hand crafted one ie all career and QMB missions usually have the guns pointing the wrong way on activation) then it will take 20 secs to turn to bring the gun to bear. In that same time an aircraft moving at 350 mph will cover about 2600 m. So, at best the gun will fire only a few times before the target movement causes the gun to rotate again halting its fire. As the target moves away the gun will only get off another few shots at best before the aircraft moves outside the MCU attack range.

 

So, the current career and QMB representation of heavy flak is like the crew was fast asleep until the target was almost on top of them and then they suddenly wake up and do a very ineffective last sec scramble to engage. In real life the crew was actively looking for targets and getting spotting reports from observers and radar (in WW2). It would be unlikely that an aircraft would get close to a heavy AAA battery without being very low and even then, the heavy battery's attached light AAA would engage such a target and give the heavy battery a warning.

 

Even if you keep a limited MCU attack range I would suggest you should activate the AAA as early as performance considerations allow as this allows the gun time to rotate and begin to track the target before it moves into the MCU attack range. eg if you set an MCU attack range of 5000m then I would suggest that the activation range should be something like 10000m. This will give you a much more realistic representation of flak.

 

The above was the main reason I created the mod to alter career and QMB generated activation/deactivation ranges and MCU attack ranges for career and QMB missions. https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/74938-aaa-mod/

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Roshko]

Uhoh - that's a whole new can of worms (for me at least )

I've bookmarked your mod, and will look into it when I feel ready for it - thanks!

[Sketch]

11 hours ago, Roshko said:

Awesome, thnks!

I am already using @JimTM's great guide.

With duplicating an object, I meant, like you copy/paste them. When you've created one AA hooked up to the on/off routine, then creating a bunch, all with the same hookup.
Saving them out in a group won't keep their connections to anything that's not saved with them. I don't think it's possible, but would be a nice functionality to have tho.

You're correct in that when you duplicate an object that is a linked entity, such as a vehicle, plane, or artillery piece, it does not maintain the target or object links that the copied object has.

 

You can object link or target link many objects that are linked entities, if you name your linked entities correctly. Here I have a ton of linked entities in my mission, but I smartly named the AAA units I want connected to my Command AttackArea -> Bacon Vehicles. When I search for objects through the MCU, I can find all the Bacon Vehicles and connect them.

 

[Roshko]

3 hours ago, Sketch said:

Here I have a ton of linked entities in my mission, but I smartly named the AAA units I want connected to my Command AttackArea -> Bacon Vehicles. When I search for objects through the MCU, I can find all the Bacon Vehicles and connect them.

 

 

That's neat!
 

BTW - I can't seem to find a view option to turn of the yellow range circles. I'd like to be able to do that once in a while, especially when tinkering with a highly complex mission, like the ones PWCG generates. Also because it would be a nice way to produce screenshots of various setups (using the ortho-view). I can of course setup spectator cameras and do the screenshooting in the game, but nevertheless: Is hiding the yellow circles doable?

Edited September 1, 2023 by Roshko
clarification 4

[Sketch]

58 minutes ago, Roshko said:

Is hiding the yellow circles doable?

I've been using the editor since 2016 (see my first post about the mission editor below), and I've never been able to figure out how to turn off the yellow range circles that come from Checkzones, Complex Triggers, and Command AttackArea MCUs. I do believe it's been requested before and it's lost in the mix of mission editor requests. If you figure it out, please let me know. When I take screenshots of my objectives, I either just leave the rings in because I'm lazy/out of time/etc, or I remove the rings in Photoshop.

 

 

 

[Roshko]

I think the conclusion is that it can't be done then, but of course - if I stumble over some miracle-way of doing it, I'll let you know. Should be rather easy to fix one would think. PWCG missions are VERY complex, and some areas are simply solid yellow.

Great thread, I've bookmarked it for future reference!

[Roshko]

Unengageable is actually the most effective idea for my particular scenario! Still - there's actually a lot of enemy A/Cs flying around. They're landing and stuff, but maybe I would like the player(s) to be able to pick a fight with air-targets if they want to, so the AAA on/off is still great. And I learned a bunch from it.

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Roshko

[AEthelraedUnraed]

On 8/31/2023 at 11:45 PM, Sketch said:

Can AA have a leader, like planes or motorcades can? That way I'd only have to disable him?

 

Yes, I did not do this to help you understand what the Force Complete MCU is doing. Note that using Parent-Child relationship connections between entities does work with the Spawner MCU.

You forgot the word "not" there: parent-child relationships do NOT work with Spawner MCU's

They do work with activate/deactivate though.

 

21 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

In real life the crew was actively looking for targets and getting spotting reports from observers and radar (in WW2). It would be unlikely that an aircraft would get close to a heavy AAA battery without being very low and even then, the heavy battery's attached light AAA would engage such a target and give the heavy battery a warning.

That's a somewhat optimistic view and only valid for large batteries far enough from the front. If you read Operational Record Books (ORBs), it occurs relatively often that they didn't encounter Flak on the ingress but after they'd stayed around the target for a minute, the flak started. Of course, the guns were pre-trained to the direction they'd expect the enemy to come from, but for the smaller Flak sites that didn't have as short communication lines with radar/observation posts, this apparently wasn't enough.

 

All in all, it depends on the circumstances. If you're making a 1942 "Ramrod" mission, it's perfectly realistic for the Flak to only start shooting after you're already well past it. If you're flying Bostons on a 5000m bombing raid, you should expect the Flak to start firing as soon as you're in range.

 

2 hours ago, Padda said:

theres a check box for each aircraft, called "engageable" one could uncheck this box and since the plane is unengageable, no enemy aaa/flak could engage it.

Good you mention the "engageable" check box.

 

The Engageable setting and Force Complete (or Waypoint) Priority are basically two completely opposite (yet equally valid) ways to approach the problem. Let's say you've got an Allied flight and Axis Flak. There are two options:

- Setting the Allied flight to non-engageable makes all Axis vehicles/guns/aircraft ignore that specific flight. All other Allied flights will still be shot at, and all Flak will be firing (if within range of an engageable target).

- Setting the Axis Flak to High priority makes that specific Flak ignore all Allied vehicles/guns/aircraft. All other Flak will still fire (if within range), and all Allied flights will be targeted.

 

Depending on your desired behaviour, either one (or both combined) is the way to go

[Roshko]

Ok, since the mission I am building is kind of a template-mission, it's a bit more demanding in the logics than a one-shot mission would be. I don't mind that at all. It keeps me learning. I am going to have several groups of AA, defending bridges, an airfield, the train-station, the train itself etc. And it's so nice that I can turn on only the relevant AA. If the mission is about attacking a train, then I activate the train AA and the train-station AA, and turn off the others and so on - but in the beginner-version of the mission, no AA at all. So I ended up with this little central switch, based on Sketch's explanation of how to do it.

 

The cool thing is, that if I targetlink all AA groups to the "aa Att Air" MCU, they will behave as expected and attack enemy planes, then I can turn off any group I want by simply targetlinking them from the "fc Cease Fire" MCU. This gives me a "one-stop command central" for all aa in template. Making it easy to create various missions from the template file. The reason I've arranged the MCUs like I have, is because the distance between the "aa Att Air" and the "fc Cease Fire" makes it very obvious when looking at the map from a zoomed out view, if an AA group has one or two targetlinks from the switch. If it has only one link, it is active. If it has two, it's inactive. So far I've set up train AA and airfield AA. Only the train AA gets a command to cease fire.

I've added a car-chase to the scenario today. This guy is on his way to Krasnoarmeyskaya with a top-secret receipe for Saurkraut-schnapps. If this recipe reaches the ZKK (Zentrale Küchen Kommando), the whole war could turn somewhat unpleasant .... you'll have to shoot  him on the highway!



But before you do all that, you will have to do a recon-flight over Staro ... long name ... in order to suss out where the different threats are.

In other to avoid raising suspicion, the comrades in the GRU has come up with a clever ploy. You will overfly the city in a U-2vs painted in Luftwaffe colors. The local wehrmact and luftwaffe has been told that Goebbels is producing a propaganda-film, and that their units will star in it. So everyone will think that you're part of the filmcrew, and it's only natural that you'd be filming the airbase, trains, tank-columns and so on.



It's all coming along nicely, and the missionbuilder makes me feel like I'm little kid playing with his toy trains, tanks, cars and aircraft

Edited September 4, 2023 by Roshko

[Roshko]

@Sketch, you wouldn't happen to know of a list of vehicles and/or other of the game-objects with pictures? There is of course a list in the game, but the pictures are tiny and you have to look at them one at the time to find what you need - if you don't know it's name.

Also I was thinking that someone may have compiled a list of known keyboard-shortcuts?

It would be some nice-to-haves, and I've tried googling, but didn't come up with anything.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Roshko

[JimTM]

6 hours ago, Roshko said:

@Sketch, you wouldn't happen to know of a list of vehicles and/or other of the game-objects with pictures? There is of course a list in the game, but the pictures are tiny and you have to look at them one at the time to find what you need - if you don't know it's name.

Also I was thinking that someone may have compiled a list of known keyboard-shortcuts?

It would be some nice-to-haves, and I've tried googling, but didn't come up with anything.

 

From the Il-2 Sturmovik Resources post:

• Objects Reference Chart PDF's
• Key Mapping Command Listing
• IL2 BOX Key Bindings Excel and PDF
• Tank Controls

 

If you are referring to the mission editor keyboard shortcuts, I don't think there is a list but you can do a google search like so:

site: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/ +"mission editor" +"keyboard"

or some variation of this. There are some keyboard shortcuts listed in various posts. Also there are shortcuts listed beside some menu items in the editor.

Edited September 4, 2023 by JimTM

[Sketch]

To add to @JimTM's reply:

 Keyboard shortcuts: 

 

 

Vehicle Database (no pictures sorry):  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bjt4tMz0JwXfN80FnpB9Oo4lupGdgE3ybcDRFqyvvro/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Roshko]

Thanks @JimTM, The Object Reference fits the bill exactly. I did mean "mission-editor" shortcuts, and I tried your search, which was better than any I had tried. You even mention some of the shortcuts in your guide (that thing is so comprehensive)

I'll make a table of the keyboard-shortcuts I can find in your guide and through the search-results at some point, and be sure to share it with anyone interested.

Today I've been kefaffling with a LKW-convoy. Gave me quite some headaches. At one point it drives through a city, and there were two 90 deg. corners that was very difficult to get the convoy through. I ended up using formation command off road, and then on road once the corners were traversed. At one point I spent two hours wondering why the FockeWulf a certain truck kept stopping at a bridge, halting all subsequent vehicles. Until it dawned on me to check the formation numbers, and sure enough, the truck was no. seven in line, but had formation no. #8. On the other hand no. eight in line had #7 of course. Fixing that, fixed everything.

Here I am, spying on them, whilst pretending to be from the PKO (Propaganda Kommando Ost)

Thanks @Sketch - I'll compile a list and we can add to it, if we find more shortcuts.

"Select an MCU, hold shift and left click on the viewport will create a duplicate of that MCU and target link itself to the original MCU. This works great for creating waypoints or a series of icons. "

This doesn't work in my ME, I've tried both shift-keys, and I've tried both clicking and dragging. Perhaps it's because I'm on Linux, but I don't think so. Does it still work in your ME?

[Roshko]

That's a great thread Sketch - thnx!

You've already given me your vehicle-database, it's great.

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Roshko

[Sketch]

3 hours ago, Roshko said:

This doesn't work in my ME, I've tried both shift-keys, and I've tried both clicking and dragging. Perhaps it's because I'm on Linux, but I don't think so. Does it still work in your ME?

This only works for Waypoints and Icon MCUs. All other MCUs do not seem to work in this way.

 

With your first icon selected, press and hold left shift, then left-click anywhere in the viewport to create another icon that matches the one you selected. It will also be target-linked to your original Icon MCU.

 

You can do the same thing with Waypoint MCUs. Select your first waypoint (be sure it is object linked correctly) and then hold left shift and then left-click anywhere in the viewport to place a new identical Waypoint MCU down that is target linked and object linked to your object.

[Roshko]

Ah ok - only WPs and Icons: Furthermore it only works with the last WP in a chain. If you select a waypoint that has a targetlink to another wp it won't work (that would also give you a wrong wp-structure).

Just found out: You don't have to have a WP selected. If you have an object selected, it will start insert WPs for that object. Saves you a trip to the MCU-library.

Another neat thing: the Shift+T shortcut for target links can work for multiple objects (probably also MCUs). That's especially neat when creating a formation and designation a leader: Select all vehicles except the leader in a vehicle-convoy (probably also works for all wingmen in a flight), press Shift+T and click the column/flight-leader ... et voila!

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Roshko