Crystal order is in.

[Panzerlang]

They appear to have done me out of around Y1200 (my pre-order deposit was Y5000, they've 'discounted' my price by Y3800). It says four weeks until I get it. $1900 including shipping and taxes.

[HogMenTheHog107]

Odd about the 1200 yen....

 

 I hope you enjoy your Crystal.  I have mine and I love it for IL-2.  Running at a solid 90 fps and so clear I can actually do ground attack missions now.  I was running a reverb G2  and found it a great step up.

 

 

[Panzerlang]

Here we go again. I've had an email asking me to confirm my shipping address. Included is this:

"Please note: The payment you made did not include duties and taxes, which might be imposed when the goods arrive in your country."

On the purchase page it very clearly stated that, for Japan, EUR and AUD, all taxes and duties were included in the purchase price (Y275000/$1900).

I've told them that if this is no longer the case to cancel my order and refund my money.

Full price, WITHOUT tax, is $1599.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Hetzer-JG52

[HogMenTheHog107]

probably just default text.  I'm from Canada and had to pay customs/taxes.  For Canada its just standard,  funny thing is sometimes I get charged by Customs Canada (part of the Canadian Government), sometimes I don't.  I got away with only paying $138 canadian dollars.  Nothing Pimax can do about it though, at least here.

 

 

[Charlo-VRde]

I got the same email today from Pimax to confirm my home address, and my credit card was already charged a couple weeks ago the tax of $147.16 (I live in Los Angeles, so that is very close to our sales tax rate).

 

We'll see if I get charged any more than that.

[Panzerlang]

Still waiting...?

[Drum]

The waiting is the worst.  ☺️

[Panzerlang]

Opting for the wide FOV lenses might have delayed things.

[Charlo-VRde]

7 hours ago, Hetzer-JG52 said:

Opting for the wide FOV lenses might have delayed things.

 

Ditto

[dburne]

 Pimax states first batch of wide FOV Lens availability the end of Sept.

https://pimax.com/crystal-notice/

Wonder how many are in a batch...

Edited July 31, 2023 by dburne

[Dagwoodyt]

45 minutes ago, dburne said:

 Pimax states first batch of wide FOV Lens availability the end of Sept.

https://pimax.com/crystal-notice/

Wonder how many are in a batch...

Has anyone ever tested the wide FOV lenses?

[Panzerlang]

4 hours ago, Charlo-VR said:

 

Ditto

One would like to think they'd send the headset with the extra lenses to follow later. But hey ho.

[Panzerlang]

"

Dear valued customer,

 

Hope the mail find you all well.

 

We are eager to deliver it to you as soon as possible.

Your Crystal might be shipped out  around   Mid-Aug.  currently .

 

The future progress of your order  is avaible under "my account" . 

With the recent high volume of inquiries, responses may not be timely.

Please check here for more information and contact us again if your question is not solved.

 

We would like to express our sincerest apologies for the delay in shipping your order. 

We understand that this has caused inconvenience and frustration, and we take full responsibility for our mistake.

To make it up to you, we would like to offer you a $30 accessory voucher that is valid for one year. 

This voucher can be used towards any future purchase on our website.

Once again, we apologize for any inconvenience caused and hope that you will accept this gesture of goodwill.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further concerns or questions.

 

 

BR!

Pimax Support Team"

Edited August 7, 2023 by Hetzer-JG52

[HogMenTheHog107]

I don't think you should have included the Code:#######.   Someone is going to use that and you'll not be able to use it.

[Charlo-VRde]

I received the same email as @Hetzer-JG52, with the same code. Not thrilled about the delay, but also aware that by the time I receive the HMD Pimax may have improved the software and QA process. May have.

[TAIPAN_]

Surprisingly my headset arrived before any of my new PC parts (sorry guys!). Testing it out on my old nvidia 3090 fps is around 75 and frametime 12ms with SteamVR and 100% SS with a few in-game settings reduced. These settings were closer to 90fps when I used to have G2. 

 

I might try Opencomposite to see if openXR is better, but I'm confident things will be great when I build my 4090 new PC. I've decided to go up to 7800X3D as well since I may as well do a new build first if I'm going to go through a whole tweaking phase this next month or so.

 

Cockpit clarity is extremely high, external terrain & enemies are still not as good as a 4k monitor but it's getting alot closer! 

 

World scale things seem a bit small so I may push it up to 110-120% similar to G2 but will need to try a few different aircraft. Apparently DCS has the same issue. 

 

Happy the new headsets come with comfort gasket pre-installed, DMAS sound, and the powdered USB hub that extends battery life & saves USB ports. No volume issues with DMAS as some had previously reported, I'm running about 60% volume and it's great there is a volume rocker directly on the headset itself to adjust during flight. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by TAIPAN_

[Charlo-VRde]

My Pimax Crystal has arrived and it was pretty easy to get it going, once I updated the firmware and shoved the display port cable deeply enough into the HMD's socket. Vertical FOV, clarity, and significantly larger sweetspot are impressive after the last three years or so with the Reverb G2. I'll have no more excuses when I get bounced in MP ?

 

I always liked the off-the-ear speakers of the G2, and the sound in the Crystal's DMAS speakers would be improved with cups - they are just a little tinnier than the G2. 

 

The headset is heavy but well-balanced, and I already have the Studioform Apache strap to help it rest more comfortably on my head. Still, I can tell I will need to get used to how it feels, since it was uncomfortable after two hours this first session.

 

I'll eventually try out OpenXr, but first want to see the best performance I can get from SteamVR and the same game settings I enjoyed with my trusty G2, which averaged 90 FPS most of the time. With my 4090 FE GPU and 13700k CPU, I'm experiencing 45 fps at times in the Crystal, with averages in the 50s. I have turned off motion smoothing in SteamVr.

 

What SteamVR settings do folks recommend from their own use with the Crystal when playing IL-2 Great Battles?

[TAIPAN_]

On 8/29/2023 at 12:47 PM, Charlo-VR said:

My Pimax Crystal has arrived and it was pretty easy to get it going, once I updated the firmware and shoved the display port cable deeply enough into the HMD's socket. Vertical FOV, clarity, and significantly larger sweetspot are impressive after the last three years or so with the Reverb G2. I'll have no more excuses when I get bounced in MP ?

 

I always liked the off-the-ear speakers of the G2, and the sound in the Crystal's DMAS speakers would be improved with cups - they are just a little tinnier than the G2. 

 

The headset is heavy but well-balanced, and I already have the Studioform Apache strap to help it rest more comfortably on my head. Still, I can tell I will need to get used to how it feels, since it was uncomfortable after two hours this first session.

 

I'll eventually try out OpenXr, but first want to see the best performance I can get from SteamVR and the same game settings I enjoyed with my trusty G2, which averaged 90 FPS most of the time. With my 4090 FE GPU and 13700k CPU, I'm experiencing 45 fps at times in the Crystal, with averages in the 50s. I have turned off motion smoothing in SteamVr.

 

What SteamVR settings do folks recommend from their own use with the Crystal when playing IL-2 Great Battles?

 

Good to hear it's up and running nice and easy! I had some connection issues and cycled through a few USB port combinations but didn't have as bad a time as some stories I heard. When it's working though it's great.

 

I got my new PC built and dived into some testing/fine-tuning with the crystal. It's similar to yours with a 4090 and 7800X3D.

For IL-2 my experience was similar to yours - with the Render Quality set to Custom: 1.0 to run at the full recommended resolution I get around 45-50 as well. OpenVR mode (SteamVR) seems to suffer in particular for high res + IL-2. I tried some other games in SteamVR (Elite Dangerous, Into the Radius, Euro Truck Sim) and they got alot higher FPS than IL-2 at full res.

 

Long story short I found forcing OpenXR via OpenComposite gave alot better results and getting it to 90fps was pretty easy.

 

After diving down the OpenXR rabbithole and finding IL-2 as one of the titles that does not support it, I got the OpenComposite 64bit dll and replaced IL-2s dll so I could use OC just for IL2 since other SteamVR titles seem ok.

 

PimaxXR I set as the Runtime for OpenXR and ticked the box for "prefer framerate over latency", note that smart smoothing is OFF for me in PimaxPlay.
 

OpenXR toolkit I only changed one thing that increases performance: I set custom resolution and just reduced it about 20% to give me some headroom for adjustment. If you are close to achieving your desired FPS, then apparently it is better to just reduce the resolution rather than using FSR or any kind of downscaling + sharpening. I did leave the IL2 in-game sharpening turned on though. Note that you should not use Turbo mode at the same time as "prefer framerate over latency", and my previous test of turbo mode I found it did not give a smooth feeling. I can't give screenshots of this because it's set inside VR only and I haven't yet learned how to record VR.

 

Also in OpenXR toolkit for tuning I set target fps to 92 just so I can see the headroom percentage in the overlay FPS counter.

Also added some post processing to increase brightness/contrast/luminosity due to IL-2 being a bit dark even on sunny days. 

 

Did some testing in QMB with 8 fighters vs 8 bombers over the Kuban coastal hills full of trees, at 500m altitude and it was mostly above 90fps except when I had a massive collision with bombers at which time the CPU frametime spiked. 

 

Attached my settings. Note that "fixed foveated rendering" does not work on IL-2 (nor does dynamic), I only have it turned on for other titles that it does work in eg OpenVR titles like Elite Dangerous. 

My local dimming looks unchecked because I set a value between highlight and extreme in the json file. Also if you set the colours/brightness and click apply it will put some messed up numbers in the json file so I set them back to 0 manually. You can reload the edited file by restarting PimaxPlay, it is here: C:\Users\<USERNAME>\AppData\Local\Pimax\runtime\profile.json 

 

I have no idea why the performance is so different between the two when it comes to IL-2, even if I don't reduce the resolution at all in OpenXR toolkit I still get way closer to 90fps than OpenVR/SteamVR does. Might be something to do with the way IL-2 implements VR, but it seems to benefit alot from forcing the switch.

 

Shame DFR won't work with IL2, because that is giving some great performance gains for people running DCS (via QuadViews) and other titles (via native OpenVR DFR and VRS).

 

After being disappointed with the G2 and going back to flatscreen 2 years ago, the crystal is finally something that I can say is worth all the tradeoffs and begins to live up to the hype of VR that I started to hear 3-4 years ago. I'm keeping it and will continue to migrate my sims across. I'm hoping the future firmware/software will be even better, as well as the "High FOV Lenses" - because the horizontal FOV is the only disappointment to me thus far. Vertical FOV is very good in dogfights, but the horizontal is like wearing scuba goggles. Maybe almost realistic for IL2 and flying circus pilot goggles, but not so good for other titles. To be clear it is not worse than other (non-pimax) headsets eg it's better than the G2, but I it's definitely noticable and a promise that was underdelivered so far.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by TAIPAN_

[chiliwili69]

56 minutes ago, TAIPAN_ said:

For IL-2 my experience was similar to yours - with the Render Quality set to Custom: 1.0 to run at the full recommended resolution I get around 45-50 as well. OpenVR mode (SteamVR) seems to suffer in particular for high res + IL-2. I tried some other games in SteamVR (Elite Dangerous, Into the Radius, Euro Truck Sim) and they got alot higher FPS than IL-2 at full res.

 

This is strange. IL-2 should run well with SteamVR (OpenVR).

 

What is the resolution shown in SteamVR when you set the render quality to 1.0 in Pimax software?

 

 

59 minutes ago, TAIPAN_ said:

because the horizontal FOV is the only disappointment to me thus far. Vertical FOV is very good in dogfights, but the horizontal is like wearing scuba goggles. Maybe almost realistic for IL2 and flying circus pilot goggles, but not so good for other titles. To be clear it is not worse than other (non-pimax) headsets eg it's better than the G2, but I it's definitely noticable and a promise that was underdelivered so far.

 

Did you had the Index or Pico4 before? How it compares with FOV vertical and horizontal?

[TAIPAN_]

1 hour ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

This is strange. IL-2 should run well with SteamVR (OpenVR).

 

What is the resolution shown in SteamVR when you set the render quality to 1.0 in Pimax software?

 

 

 

Did you had the Index or Pico4 before? How it compares with FOV vertical and horizontal?

 

I haven't had the Pico4 sorry, and I have had an Index but the resolution was so bad I quickly swapped it for the G2 as well as it being years ago I probably can't compare.

 

Resolution is same, attached.

 

But you know what, I think you might be right thanks for checking. I may have jumped the gun!

 

Could have been something different happening to my PC when I tested SteamVR first because it's gone from 50fps up to 80+ now. With some tweaking I should be able to get it up to 90fps and get rid of OpenComposite. Because Charlo-VR had similar with the same graphics card I thought mine would still be the same as well, but not sure what happened.. with the attached settings it runs fine.

 

Fast scenes like flying under a bomber or moving your head alot seem to be smoother in SteamVR regardless of FPS (maybe that's the effect of using "prefer framerate over latency" causing latency in my OpenXR test).

 

One big downside though - both times I've tested in SteamVR I got a crash to desktop.

I'm wondering if that's because of the FFR/DFR that is turned on in Pimax Software, apparently that setting will be for all OpenVR titles unless you launch the game from the Pimax client "per game profile" that turns it off. If IL2 doesn't like DFR or FFR maybe it causes an issue. I'll see if I can find logs. 

 

@Charlo-VR I'm assuming you had no crash to desktop? Mind posting your Pimax settings, Nvidia settings and in-game settings? 

Also wondering why you're at 45fps like I was yesterday when today I'm at 85...

 

I might try some tests using PimaxPlay to start the game, which in theory should turn off DFR and stop exposing it to SteamVR based on my "per game" setting. Will take quite a few hours of play in both modes to reproduce the cause of the crash though unfortunately, 3am here so I must sleep and then it's weekend which is busy time with fam.

Edited September 1, 2023 by TAIPAN_

[dburne]

DFR is not officially supported in the Pimax release software just yet, it is in the Beta as I understand.

[Panzerlang]

Notes from my YT posting...

Flashing is fixed and I'm getting high 80 FPS with zero ghosting (PimaxXR), though overall the motion across the board isn't quite as smooth as the Pico4 (it's not enough of a difference to be an issue however). The remaining (significant) issue is eye comfort. My eyes start to feel strained within ten minutes of use, no matter what IPD I try. Also there's a noticeable difference between focussing in-cockpit (dials) and stuff far away, like my eyes are having to make an effort to adjust. I got none of that with the Pico. Either bad lenses or just something is different in the Crystal's physical design? I also didn't get the other set of lenses. I don't know if that means they're intending to ship the wide FOV ones at a later date, they've communicated nothing in that regard. The image quality (resolution) is noticeably 'nicer' than the Pico's but I don't think enough to warrant the cost of the Crystal, especially not with the poor FOV and lens-edge visibility.

[TAIPAN_]

9 hours ago, dburne said:

DFR is not officially supported in the Pimax release software just yet, it is in the Beta as I understand.

 

Yes, currently in the beta it uses the same "FFR" setting to enable DFR. Only a couple of weeks left then it should be public. Some of the wording in the software is a bit strange maybe due to translation. But even once it's supported, I think it won't work with IL2 because of IL2 using PP (parallax processing I think - don't ask me what that means). Apparently the zoom can also cause it to bug out if you force PP off to enable DFR. I'm not experienced enough with VR to get it working so I'll assume no DFR in IL2 unless I see otherwise when it goes public.

 

2 hours ago, Hetzer-JG52 said:

Notes from my YT posting...

Flashing is fixed and I'm getting high 80 FPS with zero ghosting (PimaxXR), though overall the motion across the board isn't quite as smooth as the Pico4 (it's not enough of a difference to be an issue however). The remaining (significant) issue is eye comfort. My eyes start to feel strained within ten minutes of use, no matter what IPD I try. Also there's a noticeable difference between focussing in-cockpit (dials) and stuff far away, like my eyes are having to make an effort to adjust. I got none of that with the Pico. Either bad lenses or just something is different in the Crystal's physical design? I also didn't get the other set of lenses. I don't know if that means they're intending to ship the wide FOV ones at a later date, they've communicated nothing in that regard. The image quality (resolution) is noticeably 'nicer' than the Pico's but I don't think enough to warrant the cost of the Crystal, especially not with the poor FOV and lens-edge visibility.

Flashing apparently is caused by running motion smoothing at the same time as some other enhancements. 

Regarding motion not being as smooth - I found this with PimaxXR as well for IL2, maybe due to having to go through OpenComposite. Going back to SteamVR the motion is very smooth (if running at 90fps without motion smoothing).  Are you able to get it IL2 running OK in SteamVR? 

 

Regarding focusing, I did read that the crystal has a closer focus range than other headsets ie 1m distance that can cause some with long sightedness to notice an issue. Are you over 40 and need reading glasses in any eye? I am long sighted in one eye slightly but my brain adjusts ie I only notice it if closing my left eye when reading and that's much closer than 1m. I'm not definitely sure about focus range being 1m, just something I've read from users. In general I found that close vs far quality to be a VR problem with all headsets and one reason I didn't like the G2 - looking inside the cockpit was great, but identifying ground targets for example was fuzzy (compared to flat screen). However enemy aircraft detail is great for me in IL2 with the crystal, unless they are far away. Interesting that it's better in IL-2 than in DCS, DCS external is still a bit difficult though I have not done any tuning for DCS yet. Once I setup quad views DFR I'll be able to crank up some settings in DCS and still get great FPS.

 

Also maybe due to the design or the way the lenses are close - I find it VERY easy to get them dirty, no way can I rest the headset on my head or it will get fogged up. I take it off and set it down on the table next to me if I need to.

 

I did read someone else on youtube comments could see the lense edges when it was close to his face, I'm lucky I don't get that. I can notice the edges only when a game is loading and the whole headset is dark. Once there's an image I don't see it.

 

Wide FOV lenses aren't even ready yet, no idea when they will be done.

Edited September 2, 2023 by TAIPAN_

[Panzerlang]

Ah, that would explain it. I am long-sighted (I have to hold a book about a foot away to read it) but one eye is weaker than the other (slight astigmatism in the left). I'll try with my glasses on (that are for short-sightedness which happens at night, go figure). My reading glasses are useless, lol.

[chiliwili69]

14 hours ago, TAIPAN_ said:

Resolution is same, attached.

Thank you for the data. I am glad to know that fps has improved in SteamVR.

 

Looking at the numbers I understand now why you are sometimes below 90fps. The resolution is huge!! larger than in the Aero having almost same physical panel resolution.

 

With a G2 at 100% (SteamVR SS) you were rendering 19.5 million pixels.

 

With the Aero at 100% and Highest Varjo mode people is rendering 29.5 million pixels (That´s why a 4090 is a must)

 

But with the Crystal at 100% and Custom 1.0 resolution you are rendering the incredible amount of 44 milion pixels. So even a 4090 has a hard time with it.

 

In the SYN_Vander results sheet, there is a sheet called "SS per Device", you can see what is the supersampling ratio applied by Pimax to the Crystal , it is a ratio of 2.65.

This is one of the highest ratios I have seen. (Index was 1.96, G2 was 2.1, Aero at highest was 1.88, etc). Every device need this ratio depending on geometry, lenses and desired clarity:

 

 

So, if you have low performance with the Crystal there is one single reason: Resolution and GPU rendering power.

 

You can try to decrease the custom resolution in Pimax or the SS in SteamVR and you will see how your performance is increased.

For example, if you put the SS in SteamVR at 44% you should have the same performance you had with the G2, but the clarity will be for sure worse.

 

What you can do is to start at 50% SteamVR SS and use fpsVR during gameplay to see how close are your GPU frametimes to 11.1 miliseconds threshold. So gradually increase SteamVR SS to 60% , 70% etc until you start to touch the 11.1 ms.

 

At the same time you can monitorize the GPU load in a trendline (using MSI-Afterburner for example), so in theory as you increase your SteamVR-SS you load more the GPU, you should reach 100%GPU load when you cross the 11.1 ms GPU frametimes.

 

Let me know if this is clear.

 

[dburne]

6 hours ago, TAIPAN_ said:

 

Yes, currently in the beta it uses the same "FFR" setting to enable DFR. Only a couple of weeks left then it should be public. Some of the wording in the software is a bit strange maybe due to translation. But even once it's supported, I think it won't work with IL2 because of IL2 using PP (parallax processing I think - don't ask me what that means). Apparently the zoom can also cause it to bug out if you force PP off to enable DFR. I'm not experienced enough with VR to get it working so I'll assume no DFR in IL2 unless I see otherwise when it goes public.

 

 

 

No DFR currently does not work with Aero either in  IL-2. 

[TAIPAN_]

1 hour ago, chiliwili69 said:

Thank you for the data. I am glad to know that fps has improved in SteamVR.

 

Looking at the numbers I understand now why you are sometimes below 90fps. The resolution is huge!! larger than in the Aero having almost same physical panel resolution.

 

With a G2 at 100% (SteamVR SS) you were rendering 19.5 million pixels.

 

With the Aero at 100% and Highest Varjo mode people is rendering 29.5 million pixels (That´s why a 4090 is a must)

 

But with the Crystal at 100% and Custom 1.0 resolution you are rendering the incredible amount of 44 milion pixels. So even a 4090 has a hard time with it.

 

In the SYN_Vander results sheet, there is a sheet called "SS per Device", you can see what is the supersampling ratio applied by Pimax to the Crystal , it is a ratio of 2.65.

This is one of the highest ratios I have seen. (Index was 1.96, G2 was 2.1, Aero at highest was 1.88, etc). Every device need this ratio depending on geometry, lenses and desired clarity:

 

 

So, if you have low performance with the Crystal there is one single reason: Resolution and GPU rendering power.

 

You can try to decrease the custom resolution in Pimax or the SS in SteamVR and you will see how your performance is increased.

For example, if you put the SS in SteamVR at 44% you should have the same performance you had with the G2, but the clarity will be for sure worse.

 

What you can do is to start at 50% SteamVR SS and use fpsVR during gameplay to see how close are your GPU frametimes to 11.1 miliseconds threshold. So gradually increase SteamVR SS to 60% , 70% etc until you start to touch the 11.1 ms.

 

At the same time you can monitorize the GPU load in a trendline (using MSI-Afterburner for example), so in theory as you increase your SteamVR-SS you load more the GPU, you should reach 100%GPU load when you cross the 11.1 ms GPU frametimes.

 

Let me know if this is clear.

 

 

Yes that's clear, thanks that's very interesting! It could explain why I had lower FPS earlier although I also probably stuffed something up like my computer would've still been downloading things... but now I do get 90fps after a couple more tweaks (up from 85fps yesterday and 50fps the day before) even at that massive resolution. If Charlo-VR isn't able to get 90 as well on the 1.0 / 100% resolution I might be wondering about the difference between systems ie the cpu: is my 7800X3D a super beast for running IL-2? I know it's great for MSFS & DCS. But I do have quite a few settings inside IL-2 reduced below that max.

 

So this SS ratio - I assume it's a ratio of the physical panels ie of the 2880x2880 per eye? Doing some quick maths it seems so.

Looking up Varjo Aero it looks like their physical panel size is simlar to the Crystal, and they both have aspheric lenses. Why would Pimax make the 1.0 (100% SS) align to such a larger resolution / supersampling ratio if the panels/lenses are the same? Shouldn't the barrel distortion be the same?

 

The only difference I saw was Pimax saying they use QLED+Mini LED panels, whereas Varjo only has Mini LED and that Pimax use glass lenses whereas the Varjo Aero has resin lenses. The other thing is the Crystals lenses are removable and stick out a little if that makes any difference or not, but I don't have another headset to compare to.

 

Unless it's a Pimax standard - does anyone who owned previous Pimax headsets know if they needed to use lower than 1.0 to get comparable output to other manufacturers?

 

This would explain why the default Pimax setting of "balanced" sets the resolution to 0.75 in their software and thus lowers steam's 100% setting down to something more reasonable which is 0.75 in the config file and changes SteamVR 100% down to 3232x3824 per eye or a 1.5 SS ratio. I checked which setting would conform to 1.0 and that's the setting that Pimax calls "Maximum". There is also a funky tooltip message about setting it to "high will lead to stuck on display" (see screenshot) but there is no high option, only balanced, maximum and custom. At this moment the Pimax software is a very mysterious client and requires a bit of work in Discord and the config file to find out exactly what/why it is doing things.

 

 

Regarding frametime of 11.1ms, I'm curious where this number comes from that makes it the goal threshold to stay under? It's good to know, I was consistently under it most of the time and it seems hard to believe but the times that I dropped lower was quite a few CPU bound events. This is my recent tests, I don't remember the lower 50fps test because that was very short due to CTD.

 

Maybe I'll drop down to 0.75 or 0.8 so I can crank up the other settings, though I want higher for DCS because of the DFR allowing me to have alot higher quality at the same frames.

 

Is there any downside to leaving it at 1.0 in Pimax driver, then lower it only in SteamVR ie is this any different from setting the driver to 0.75 then SteamVR at 100%? Both would produce 3232 x 3824 per eye in the end but I'm not sure if there's any upscaling/downscaling changes based on where you set what.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by TAIPAN_

[TAIPAN_]

@chiliwili69 something weird I just noticed - the 0.75 ratio resolution from PimaxPlay software sets it to 3232x3824 (12,359,168 pixels), but your spreadsheet shows 0.6 as 3340x3950 (13,193,000 pixels) - the 0.75 comes in at less pixels than the 0.6. 

 

I can verify the resolution from the driver by opening PimaxXR and restarting SteamVR and see it's 100% matches and is reduced after the setting change.

 

If I manually set the config to 0.8 it produces 3450x4082 which is lower than the spreadsheets 3857x4562.

The spreadsheet IS correct if I set Pimax to 1.0 and then adjust it in Steam to 60% or 80% etc.

 

A bit of thinking out loud here but I just found the difference, and maybe the answer to my own question:

a) Pimax's percentage is based on a percentage of the resolution figure (eg percentage of horizontal or vertical only). Eg 75% of 4312 is 3232 wide.

b) Steam's percentage is based on a percentage of the calculated render total pixels and does not care about width/height percentage.

 

So the lower you go in percentages, the more important it is which software you choose to make the change in.

 

Down at 0.6/60% Pimax's setting comes in at only 7.9m pixels, whereas Steam's 60% comes in at 13.2m pixels which is a huge difference.

 

So I think I'll set Pimax to 1.0 maximum, and do all of my reductions in SteamVR NOT in PimaxPlay. PimaxPlay only gives you option of 0.5 which looks awful, 0.75, 1.0, and then 1.25, 1.5, 2.0 which aren't useful. Not fine enough control and editing config files is tedious when they get overwritten.

 

 

[dburne]

5 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

Thank you for the data. I am glad to know that fps has improved in SteamVR.

 

Looking at the numbers I understand now why you are sometimes below 90fps. The resolution is huge!! larger than in the Aero having almost same physical panel resolution.

 

 

 

 

I seriously doubt that. The native panel res is only slightly , very slightly in one orientation only, larger than Aero's.

Anyone can super sample to any resolution should their hearts desire. Even Aero can be super sampled. Remember you are talking Pimax math here .  It would not suprise me if they natively built in super sampling.

Does not mean going to be able to run it lol.

 

Hey I am glad the Crystal exists and while it appears to have many issues there are some that are quite happy, and this is a great thing for PC-VR. I tip my hat to Pimax for continuing to still offer native PC-VR headsets for the enthusiast. I myself do not like the company and how they do their business, but I don't take away what they are doing for VR and I hope they continue.  As long as the buyer understands their modus operandi going in (I really wish they would change this) I am sure they eventually will have a satisfying experince.

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by dburne

[TAIPAN_]

Just can't get SteamVR to run stable at all unfortunately no problem if I convert to PimaxXR with OpenComposite, but then it's not as smooth.

 

In SteamVR/OpenVR mode everything runs fine up until the mission starts, then it either crashes to desktop straight away or within the first minute.

VR is still running and puts me back into the cliff house.

 

Anyone have any idea what this error from event log means?

IL-2 logs folder is empty "IL-2 Sturmovik Battle of Stalingrad\data\logs", but windows event log had this:

 

Faulting application name: Il-2.exe, version: 1.0.0.1, time stamp: 0x64bffe8f
Faulting module name: nvwgf2umx.dll, version: 31.0.15.3699, time stamp: 0x64cd7596
Exception code: 0xc0000005
Fault offset: 0x0000000000398506
Faulting process ID: 0x0x7F30
Faulting application start time: 0x0x1D9DDC7A7850CD8
Faulting application path: D:\STEAM\steamapps\common\IL-2 Sturmovik Battle of Stalingrad\bin\game\Il-2.exe
Faulting module path: C:\Windows\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\nv_dispsig.inf_amd64_4cd868923cf17286\nvwgf2umx.dll
Report ID: 3d38f4f2-fa0b-49e3-b99e-9be675fc8f61
Faulting package full name: 
Faulting package-relative application ID: 

 

I tried:

-Updating NVidia drivers, tried both Studio and Game ready

-Rebooting after driver updates

-Turning off Fixed Foveated Rendering

-Turning shadows down, turning distant buildings off (though it shouldn't be so sensitive to settings)

-Removing all mods (cockpit photos and skins)

-Steam verify/clean files

-Installing all the VC redistributables etc.

-Disabling HAGS

-Tested with Monitor mode instead of VR, mission loads and can fly normally without crash

 

This is a new computer with a clean windows install, so I'm not sure what could be wrong.

Anything extra I need to install like supporting libraries that can make SteamVR more stable?

 

UPDATE:  I think I've narrowed it down to fpsVR app - when I start without it, it seems to run the mission without crashing. This is probably the only reason OpenXR mode works - because fpsVR doesn't autolaunch when SteamVR is not running. I'm changing to the beta fpsVR and it seems to allow me to have it running when I start but only had time for 1 test. Only other thing I changed since the last crash was to stop using a Desktop shortcut with the /vr on the path for IL2 and launch it from the Steam browser instead.

 

Edited September 2, 2023 by TAIPAN_

[Charlo-VRde]

Thank you so very much for sharing your settings, @TAIPAN_ ! I decided to start testing with OpenXR and not bother any more with Steam, though I never had a crash when using Steam with my Crystal.  

 

(One of the reasons I'm going OpenXR is it allows me to dial down the "over-prediction reduction" to cancel out some jittering I am seeing, perhaps because I use SimShaker Wings to power a Next Level Racing HF8 Haptic seatpad, a Buttkicker, and also use a Next Level Racing Motion Platform V3. I have over-prediction reduction down -40.)

 

I eventually remembered to disable my FSR mod, and in OpenXr Toolkit I have also turned off Turbo mode since I also have checked "prefer framerate over latency" in PimaxXr. In an 8 vs 8 quick mission I'm now able to get mostly 90 fps, until I get into some furball action, at which point fps drops briefly into the 40s and 50s, and I also sometimes see ghosting.

 

I am using all of @TAIPAN_'s Pimax and PimaxXR settings as he posted above. In my IL-2 graphic settings I still have all but Canopy reflections maxed out, with AA off and no target FPS.  I realize I may have to dial some of those back with the Crystal.

 

Looking also at the great advice above from @chiliwili69 , I'll keep experimenting with the  Display Resolution in OpenXR Toolkit - I currently have it at 2880 x 3408 per eye.  What do you have for that, @TAIPAN_ ?

 

Oh - and check out https://www.reddit.com/r/Pimax/comments/165d0c9/pimax_crystal_update_aio_et_lh_and_more/ , which includes a link to a spreadsheet for games compatible with Pimax's DFR - and IL-2 is listed on it as working natively. Fingers crossed and I'm eager for the next Pimax software update so I can find out!

[TAIPAN_]

12 hours ago, Charlo-VR said:

(One of the reasons I'm going OpenXR is it allows me to dial down the "over-prediction reduction" to cancel out some jittering I am seeing, perhaps because I use SimShaker Wings to power a Next Level Racing HF8 Haptic seatpad, a Buttkicker, and also use a Next Level Racing Motion Platform V3. I have over-prediction reduction down -40.)

 

I eventually remembered to disable my FSR mod, and in OpenXr Toolkit I have also turned off Turbo mode since I also have checked "prefer framerate over latency" in PimaxXr. In an 8 vs 8 quick mission I'm now able to get mostly 90 fps, until I get into some furball action, at which point fps drops briefly into the 40s and 50s, and I also sometimes see ghosting.

 

I am using all of @TAIPAN_'s Pimax and PimaxXR settings as he posted above. In my IL-2 graphic settings I still have all but Canopy reflections maxed out, with AA off and no target FPS.  I realize I may have to dial some of those back with the Crystal.

 

Oh wow I never knew they would cause jitter issues, I've been considering a Jetpad haptic seatback in the past https://simshaker.com/hardware/jetpad/ but never pulled the trigger because my setup is already complex enough as it is.

 

The other thing you can do to reduce jitter is to turn off "prefer framerate over latency", since the documentation says this is the same as Turbo Mode, and Turbo Mode has the downsides listed here: https://mbucchia.github.io/OpenXR-Toolkit/other-features.html#turbo-mode

BUT - that may remove the performance benefit you get from OpenXR if any.

 

If you've turned FSR off, maybe try SteamVR mode again. After more dedicated testing I found SteamVR to be the smoothest.

Also once DFR is released you will not be able to use it with OpenXR unless mbucchia enables it in the toolkit again. It was causing crashes so he does not allow it for IL2, and the PimaxPlay DFR/FFR setting only affects OpenVR programs.

 

My updated settings after the above discussions + some additional tweaking are:

-PimaxPlay stays at 1.0 render

-SteamVR/OpenVR

-SteamSS reduced to 80%, which is still alot better quality than Pimax's balanced setting. About 50% more pixels but still a good enough reduction to give very stable 10ms frametimes with high in-game settings.

-Most IL2 settings have been turned up now, except I use no AA, SSAO or sharpening.

 

The reason I'm adjusting in Steam instead of in Pimax is because it's a more fine control, and I don't want to use Pimax's "per game" settings so I don't have to launch from their client. The Pimax jump between 0.75 and 1.0 is too massive, right in the middle of that 80% in SteamSS which is actually more pixels than Pimax gives at 0.8 because they measure the percentage differently so I'm planning to leave Pimax at 1.0 always.

 

12 hours ago, Charlo-VR said:

Oh - and check out https://www.reddit.com/r/Pimax/comments/165d0c9/pimax_crystal_update_aio_et_lh_and_more/ , which includes a link to a spreadsheet for games compatible with Pimax's DFR - and IL-2 is listed on it as working natively. Fingers crossed and I'm eager for the next Pimax software update so I can find out!

 

Very cool thanks for that! So I guess my latest tests with the new beta HAVE had DFR running, but 10% is not enough to see a huge difference unless I do a dedicated BEFORE & AFTER test checking frametimes on a repeatable benchmark.

 

It's hard to see if DFR is working because when you look away from the clear spot the rendering will follow your eyes. 

So I either have to record a video of my testing and watch it back, or use a benchmark track and compare the frametimes/fps with DFR on vs off.

 

After seeing that sheet I knew the name of the tester so had a chat to the Omniwhateve, asked why DFR would suddenly start working now with the Crystal when it didn't work in the past for the Varjo Aero for @dburne you might find it interesting I've attached.

 

[Charlo-VRde]

19 hours ago, TAIPAN_ said:

Oh wow I never knew they would cause jitter issues, I've been considering a Jetpad haptic seatback in the past https://simshaker.com/hardware/jetpad/ but never pulled the trigger because my setup is already complex enough as it is.

 

The other thing you can do to reduce jitter is to turn off "prefer framerate over latency", since the documentation says this is the same as Turbo Mode, and Turbo Mode has the downsides listed here: https://mbucchia.github.io/OpenXR-Toolkit/other-features.html#turbo-mode

BUT - that may remove the performance benefit you get from OpenXR if any.

 

So now I'm thinking the jitter issue has to do with OpenXR, since I don't experience it in SteamVR using all that same hardware I use (more on that below). That'sd a good point about turning off "prefer framerate over latency", though I still found those jitters after I unchecked that option.

 

The best performance I could get with OpenXR was setting the per eye resolution to 2800 x 3314, and also setting Upscaling/Sharpening to the FSR option at 90%, with Sharpening at 60%. That gave me mostly 90 FPS with some dipping into the 50s at times in a Quick Mission over Kuban with 8 fighters and 8 two-engined attackers. Very little ghosting or stuttering.

 

But oddly, when I then went into Multiplayer (I spend easily 95% of my IL-2 time in either the Combat Box or Finnish Virtual Pilots servers), those same settings cause a slight blurriness that prevented me easily identifying contacts. I could spot them from further away than my Reverb G2, but as I got closer I could not see the planes as clearly as I used to on my G2, causing me to have to really zoom in to identify what each plane is. Strange that MP was so different, since my view of other aircraft in a Quick Mission was quite clear.

 

19 hours ago, TAIPAN_ said:

If you've turned FSR off, maybe try SteamVR mode again. After more dedicated testing I found SteamVR to be the smoothest.

Also once DFR is released you will not be able to use it with OpenXR unless mbucchia enables it in the toolkit again. It was causing crashes so he does not allow it for IL2, and the PimaxPlay DFR/FFR setting only affects OpenVR programs.

 

My updated settings after the above discussions + some additional tweaking are:

-PimaxPlay stays at 1.0 render

-SteamVR/OpenVR

-SteamSS reduced to 80%, which is still alot better quality than Pimax's balanced setting. About 50% more pixels but still a good enough reduction to give very stable 10ms frametimes with high in-game settings.

-Most IL2 settings have been turned up now, except I use no AA, SSAO or sharpening.

 

The reason I'm adjusting in Steam instead of in Pimax is because it's a more fine control, and I don't want to use Pimax's "per game" settings so I don't have to launch from their client. The Pimax jump between 0.75 and 1.0 is too massive, right in the middle of that 80% in SteamSS which is actually more pixels than Pimax gives at 0.8 because they measure the percentage differently so I'm planning to leave Pimax at 1.0 always.

 

Excellent, the above advice is exactly what I was hoping for! I always found using SteamVR easier than OpenXR, since especially the OpenXR Toolkit gives you so many options to test and potentially improve or reduce the quality of the game.

 

So, I happily tried SteamVR again with your same settings (though I have Sharpening checked in my IL-2 Graphic settings), and yep, I agree that SteamSS at 80% is the experience I was hoping for in both single- and multi-player!  I am averaging upper 80s FPS and can identify aircraft clearly in MP, the same as in SP.

 

The smoothness is the same as what I enjoyed for about 3 years on my Reverb G2, only now with the Crystal I can spot contacts a bit further out, have a much larger sweetspot to notice bogies on my tail, etc., and the colors are better, too. I am noticing I can spot the colors of the different skins more in the Crystal. And the larger vertical FOV is great, too.

 

I may even have a bit of headroom to tinker with raising the SteamSS settings to 85 or 90%

 

19 hours ago, TAIPAN_ said:

So I guess my latest tests with the new beta HAVE had DFR running, but 10% is not enough to see a huge difference unless I do a dedicated BEFORE & AFTER test checking frametimes on a repeatable benchmark.

 

It's hard to see if DFR is working because when you look away from the clear spot the rendering will follow your eyes. 

So I either have to record a video of my testing and watch it back, or use a benchmark track and compare the frametimes/fps with DFR on vs off.

 

After seeing that sheet I knew the name of the tester so had a chat to the Omniwhateve, asked why DFR would suddenly start working now with the Crystal when it didn't work in the past for the Varjo Aero for @dburne you might find it interesting I've attached.

 

I didn't entirely understand what Omniwhatever explained in the Pimax Discord (which I saw and which I am glad you asked him). I don't have access to the beta of the Pimax software so can't yet try DFR, but when that Pimax software update is released I'll try it out using SteamVR. Perhaps with DFR I'll be able to bump up the SteamSS to 85 or 90%, which may reduce some of the distant shimmers.

 

Thanks again for your testing and posting, @TAIPAN_ - I am able to start simply enjoying my Crystal now. ?

 

Oh - and the more times I fly with the Crystal, the more comfortable it gets. I am using an apache strap and also a 16mm PU leather gasket designed for the Vive.

 

At first I was annoyed by the tiny bit of light bleed I see when I first put on the headset, but I have noticed that once IL-2 is launched I don't see any light bleed anymore. Unlike my Reverb G2, I don't have to wipe any fog off my lenses the first 10 minutes of a Crystal session, perhaps because the same tiny gaps that allow the light bleed also allow enough air to circulate and prevent the Crystal lenses from fogging.

[TAIPAN_]

That's good to hear @Charlo-VR, if the settings working for both of us I'm hoping I can stick with that too.

 

On the light bleed I noticed something while things were loading (blank screen) but that's the only time. Even saw someone mention they removed the nose flaps so they can see their keyboard and not mind that light gets in under there. They also found the nose flaps uncomfortable but I don't notice them at all to be honest.

 

Don't worry about Omniwhatever's detail, because from what he's saying it means if DFR works then you won't have to do anything - it will just start working for you as soon as you upgrade to the new PimaxPlay & Firmware update. Basically plug & play just by ticking the FFR options in PimaxPlay.

 

Tell me about the sharpening checkbox - does it help with identifying/spotting contacts?

I was worried if it might have some negative effect, but if it helps with other aircraft then I might have to give it a go.

[Charlo-VRde]

15 minutes ago, TAIPAN_ said:

Tell me about the sharpening checkbox - does it help with identifying/spotting contacts?

I was worried if it might have some negative effect, but if it helps with other aircraft then I might have to give it a go.

 

I'm honestly unsure if it helps or not, and will probably try turning it off to see if it improves my MP experience. Sometimes I have chosen a setting based on advice I picked up years ago but can't remember why, and that advice predates even the G2.

 

Someone else who understands these settings more may perhaps enlighten us here ?

 

But at least we have the above posts to guide other new Crystal users!

[Varibraun]

5 hours ago, Charlo-VR said:

But at least we have the above posts to guide other new Crystal users!

 

@Charlo-VR and @TAIPAN_ - I want to thank you both for your detailed posting here along with the analysis help from @chiliwili69.  Although, I have had my Crystal for a couple of months, I haven't had the time to do much tweaking once I got it running comparably to my G2.  For example, I have just been running at .75 and using OpenXR Toolkit (I think at 3000x3500 or something close to that) for adjustments like I was in the G2.  But now I want to give SteamVR a try with your settings, because I agree with Charlo that the options in OpenXR Toolkit make it a bit overwhelming for me to figure out what is going to help or hurt.  So thank you ALL again for taking the time to share your insights along the way! 

 

Also, just updating on my experience with Pimax Support, I received an email this morning that the replacement lens for my slightly defective one has now shipped.

[Charlo-VRde]

@TAIPAN_ As we discussed above, SteamSS set to 80% in the General and Video tabs of SteamVR indicates a resolution per eye of 3856 x 4560.

 

I noticed tonight that I or SteamVR had set to 87% in my "Per-Application Video Settings" for IL-2, so I have actually been experiencing 3596 x 4256 per eye.  That is the setting that allows me to keep my FPS in the upper 80s or at 90 in both MP and in a Quick Mission with 8 fighters and 8 two-engine attackers over Kuban.

 

If I bump up that "Per-Application Video Settings" for IL-2 to 100%, thus rendering 3856 x 4560 per eye because my SteamSS General and Video settings are set to 80%, then my FPS drops into the 70s, and not quite as smooth.

 

So, I'm sticking with the actual render per eye of 3596 x 4256. ?

 

And I also can't really see any difference checking Sharpening in my IL-2 Graphic settings, so I'm note sure that setting matters for my use case.

[chiliwili69]

On 9/2/2023 at 12:24 PM, TAIPAN_ said:

is my 7800X3D a super beast for running IL-2?

 

Yes, the 7800X3D is quite good for IL-2, I also have the same CPU. We have seen in the SYN_Vander benchmarks where it stands for VR.

On 9/2/2023 at 12:24 PM, TAIPAN_ said:

But I do have quite a few settings inside IL-2 reduced below that max

 

One of them is mirrors, normally I have mirror off.  

Regarding cannopy reflections I have not test it in detail but I have cannopy reflections normally off since it should consume some CPU resources.

On 9/2/2023 at 12:24 PM, TAIPAN_ said:

So this SS ratio - I assume it's a ratio of the physical panels ie of the 2880x2880 per eye?

 

This SS ratio is TOTAL_PIXEL_RENDERED_AT_100% / TOTAL_PIXEL_PHYSICAL_PANEL.

I calculate it for every device just to have an idea of the real GPU requirement if I want to run at 100% SteamVR.

[chiliwili69]

On 9/2/2023 at 12:24 PM, TAIPAN_ said:

Why would Pimax make the 1.0 (100% SS) align to such a larger resolution / supersampling ratio if the panels/lenses are the same? Shouldn't the barrel distortion be the same?

 

Yes, this is also strange to me. Why Pimax needs such a high internal SS ratio just for 1.0. Someone could ask this to Pimax. Lenses, panels, FOV, etc are not identical.

The Aero software has several resolution modes, the default one (High) has a ratio of 1.08 and the Highest one has a ratio of 1.88.

On 9/2/2023 at 12:24 PM, TAIPAN_ said:

does anyone who owned previous Pimax headsets know if they needed to use lower than 1.0 to get comparable output to other manufacturers?

 

I had a Pimax5K+ (I backed the KickStarter) and the ratios were also very high, you can see them in the spreadsheet from rows 39 to 78 for different FOVs and RQ factors of the Pimax software. I thought at that time it was due to the special design of lenses and large FOV you need extreme barrel distortions.

[chiliwili69]

On 9/2/2023 at 12:24 PM, TAIPAN_ said:

This would explain why the default Pimax setting of "balanced" sets the resolution to 0.75 in their software and thus lowers steam's 100% setting down to something more reasonable which is 0.75 in the config file and changes SteamVR 100% down to 3232x3824 per eye or a 1.5 SS ratio. I checked which setting would conform to 1.0 and that's the setting that Pimax calls "Maximum". There is also a funky tooltip message about setting it to "high will lead to stuck on display" (see screenshot) but there is no high option, only balanced, maximum and custom.

Thanks for this. I have updated the table with the Balanced settings. Now the SS ratio is only 1.49.

We tested in the past that this Custom value in Pimax software is equivalent to put more or less SteamVR %SS.

So you can check if running the Crystal in Balanced at SS=100%SteamVR produce some visuals than running it at Maximum (or Custom1.0) with 56% SS SteamVR.

Human eyes are not the best to judge this (subjetive feeling), taking through the lenses pictures should be better. But with the human eye you can get an idea.

Human senses can be easily cheated, for example, I have a 100g cube of Wolframiun  (look here) and also a 100g cube of Aluminium. We I ask to people which one weight more they always say the Wolframiun, but the weight is exactly the same.

 

On 9/2/2023 at 12:24 PM, TAIPAN_ said:

Regarding frametime of 11.1ms, I'm curious where this number comes from that makes it the goal threshold to stay under? It's good to know,

 

11.1 is just 1000/90.

1000 are the miliseconds in a second.

90 is the frequency (Hz) of the device.

So every device has a different treshold depending on the frequency.

 

Basically is means that if you want to run not below 90fps the system (CPU & GPU) should generate a frame not above 11.1 ms.

On 9/2/2023 at 12:24 PM, TAIPAN_ said:

Is there any downside to leaving it at 1.0 in Pimax driver, then lower it only in SteamVR ie is this any different from setting the driver to 0.75 then SteamVR at 100%?

As said above I think it is exactly the same (based on previous test with Pimax5K+), but this is a Crystal, so maybe it is not the same.

You can ask Pimax about it or test it your self (Balanced at 100% or Maximum at 58% both render the same amount of pixels 24Millionpixels)