Remove airstart at Flugpark?

[Yours_truly_Ace]

Hi, it always baffled me that this realistic server has airstart / dogfight area, especially in the middle of the map.
This has its problems = enemies can suddenly spawn in on (on your six or above you) if you do a mission. Or if you just chased an enemy down and shot him, he knows your position and can spawn in directly above you or very near and he almost knows your position.

Also lately I rarely see anyone do missions, they just spawn air start and do dogfighting. Before I used to fly the Camel or D7F just to dogfight myself, but the game became very quickly boring and felt more like an arcade shooter almost.

I recently fly more boom and zoom tactics, bombing missions and recon. But every player on the server is basically just down there at dogfight area and just circling each other. 

Would be better if the server rewarded doing missions or escorting bombers, recon etc. 
As of now it seems people just want to get a high score on the Flugpark website.
Maybe just remove the scoring in total? And the only score is total for Entente and Germans? 

Red Orchestra did this well: You just got 1 score for killing an enemy, but 20 to 50 score for doing objectives. That way people worked more together towards objective. 

I think it should be more focused on winning the "war" rather than individual player score. 

A long dynamic campaign on the server would be awesome to see.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

5 hours ago, Yours_truly_Ace said:

A long dynamic campaign on the server would be awesome to see

Dynamic camping similar to TAW would be great. 

[=IRFC=Gascan]

The air start really is an important part of the server. The unfortunate fact is that Flying Circus is a small niche within the flightsim community. Asides from certain key "popular" times (Sunday, for example), the server population is usually very low. This makes it difficult for newer players to find anything to enjoy without a dogfight zone with AI to fight. An empty server stays empty, but the AI give a chance to have some fairly quick fast-food fun and see how amazing WW1 flying can be. Not all scenarios have an airfield close enough for each side to quickly get into the fight (and I regularly see players who need help to start the engine), so an airstart gets them into the action and having fun quickly. This, in turn, makes it more likely for them to come back and learn how to properly start the engine, learn how to fly better, and start doing ground attack and recon missions.

 

The server used to have a somewhat different mission, with three mission zones instead of two, and no dogfight zone. The server was completely empty except for the one day per week that everyone got on. No new players joined, and many seasoned players left (this was due to the patch that added fragile butterfly wings and unrealistic jammed controls). The new mission was a blessing: players can now be found at various times throughout the day, usually in small numbers dogfighting on the deck. I'm even seeing times when small parts of the squadrons get online during weekdays and fun missions with anywhere from 5-15 or even more on the server. It's not as good as a full dynamic campaign, but it is better than nobody flying, which is what we used to have.

 

If you want the highly involved missions with larger server population, then you will need fly on Sunday as described here, or sign up for one of the community campaigns. There are normally two major campaigns per year, Bloody April (or Operation Michael or Spring Offensive) and Black September. These last for 4 or 5 Saturdays during the appropriate month, and have some challenging missions with some of the most fun battles I've had before.

[J99_Sizzlorr]

In addition to what Gascan wrote above the airstart fields, AI and dogfight area will be deactivated when a certain ammount of players join the server.

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

On 3/28/2023 at 9:48 PM, =IRFC=Gascan said:

The air start really is an important part of the server.

 

 

Almost as important as the hidden Stuka.

[JGr2/J5_Baeumer]

On 3/28/2023 at 1:25 AM, Yours_truly_Ace said:

Also lately I rarely see anyone do missions, they just spawn air start and do dogfighting. Before I used to fly the Camel or D7F just to dogfight myself, but the game became very quickly boring and felt more like an arcade shooter almost.

Response:  This is what these players prefer to do.  Do you want to limit flying to your type of flying and force everyone to fly the way you think they should?  The Flugpark airstart allows different types of flying by different levels of players.  Players don't have to fly around the airstart, and as @J99_Sizzlorr points out, the airstart disappears after enough players are on the server.   There are plenty of other pilots who want to roll the map, and they work towards doing that.  Sometimes alone and sometimes in cooperative groups. 

I recently fly more boom and zoom tactics, bombing missions and recon. But every player on the server is basically just down there at dogfight area and just circling each other. 

Response:  Thats what you like to do.  Not everyone is like you.  Newer players are just building basic skills.  Other players (most of them) like to dogfight, not fly longer objective missions.  You do.  That is great.  So do I.   But most players never will.  Its been that way for the past 20 years across 3 different WWI flight sims.  You aren't going to change that.   Flugpark allows both types of players to find what they are looking for, and do that flying together.  That builds a stronger community and makes it more fun and exciting for more players.  They get to bump into more live players that way.  That is fun!

Would be better if the server rewarded doing missions or escorting bombers, recon etc. 

 

Response:  It does do this.  Players earn more points for completing objectives vs. just shooting down planes to reflect the fact that objectives was the goal and fighters supported those efforts. 

The parser also keeps track of coalition scores and results for completing the objectives and winning the map. However, we intentionally include the individual scores as that tends to help players interested in learning how they are flying, gain insights as they try to improve.  And yes, it has a historically based reward system (on the awards tab for individual pilots) that rewards flight time, survival and performance against other players and AI separately and combined. 

As of now it seems people just want to get a high score on the Flugpark website.

Response:  Some people, yes, but not everyone.  Whats wrong with this to the extent some people do want to get a high score?  Do you think that none of the historical aces paid attention to their scores or pursued fame through being (or trying to be) the best in the air?!   Let's be careful not to force our personal views on what makes the game fun for us on everyone else.  What we think is best or fun, may not be for others.  My way or the highway is not going to bring players together consistently.

Maybe just remove the scoring in total? And the only score is total for Entente and Germans? 
Red Orchestra did this well: You just got 1 score for killing an enemy, but 20 to 50 score for doing objectives. That way people worked more together towards objective. 

I think it should be more focused on winning the "war" rather than individual player score.

Response:  As noted above earlier, the parser does track "the war".  A player does not have to look at the leader board of individual pilot scores.  Players are free to just look at the coalition win/loss on the main page.  I and others look at it a lot.  Why?  Because some people DO look at this as a war, just like you do.  Mainly its the players in the squads who tend to have this view, and work towards it.  As a matter of fact, decisions were made early on to combine personal performance within a setting of a larger "war". 

To do that, the parser has been configured to have two ways to "win" a mission, by 1) Points, or 2) Objective.  This is all explained elsewhere in more detail.  In summary, a coalition can win a mission either way by:

1) Points:  having enough player activity for a coalition to a) reach a minimum overall score, b) outscore the opposing coalition.  Doing so implies enough "action" to make that mission significant enough to warrant it being "won".  Like a "battle". 
a) If one side meets this threshold they must also, 
b) outscore the other coalition by enough to indicate that they actually dominated and overcame the the other coalition. 

If a coalition meets these two criteria, then they win the battle/mission "by score".  The thresh holds are established such that it is impossible for one, or only a few players to accomplish the win by points.  It requires coordinated and overwhelming efforts to earn such a win.

OR

2) Objective:  Complete the two seater missions, destroy enough targets etc. to meet the mission objectives listed in the mission description in game.

As you can see these two options makes for the "War" we have on the Flugpark.  On the parser they are called "tours" and they start/stop each quarter.  Today a new one begins and runs through the end of June.  Players can see that Central won the most recent "Winter War" 26:9 http://stats.jasta5.org:8000/en/?tour=54.  That means that 35 missions were significant enough to be "won" and contribute to the overall win/loss record for coalitions.  It is an ongoing war. It just isn't a dynamic war on WWII servers with different maps etc.  We've been able to recreate some of that only temporarily for some campaigns.  But, like the real war over the Western Front wasn't very dynamic at all.  The Front didn't move much except occasionally.  And temporarily.  Not everyday was a significant action that was going to change the course of the war.  It was daily duty.  Boring most days and life or death other days.  The campaigns we play a few times a year introduce the "significant" offensives etc. that tried to win the war.   In any event, I think playing the Flugpark as a ongoing war is a lot of fun and provides another level of interest in flying, even when there aren't a lot of other players online.  Thats a great time to complete mission objectives towards a mission objective win... and invite other players to come try to stop you when they see certain players on the server.   Play it that way.  I do.  Many others do.  Thats what drives the Central scoring efforts to a large extent.  Others make their contributions through individual efforts.  Both kinds of players are needed by both coalitions.  The more players that do focus on objective completions the more immersive it can be and challenging.  That draws in more players.  And we all win then!

Thanks for bringing up the topic as you've probably helped those reading this to be able to see the deeper aspects of the Flugpark and the parser and how they recreate and document for us, our own recreation of the "Air War" of WWI.  Thanks to our missions builders and other community members who spend hundreds, if not thousands of hours each year combined making this all available to the community through the Flugpark server.  Decades of combined experience and thoughtfulness, and collaboration together with myself, combined with input from the community, to bring the best possible of all flying types, player experience levels, and player interests into one big sandbox.  Its not perfect and its full of compromises.  We are continually improving it. Keep the suggestions coming.  WE are constantly listening, and discussing.

If anyone would like to build a mission for us to spotlight as a special mission event on one of our servers, reach out to me and lets' talk more about how we can work together to make that happen.

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by J5_Baeumer

[Yours_truly_Ace]

Couldn't you put the air start / dogfight area far away on the edge of the map or something? it's too close to mission objectives like balloon attack and factory bombing or tanks bombing. it's so annoying having a plane spawn right on your ass as you attack tanks low. 
It really takes the immersion off when you see planes spawning mid air in the middle of the map

Edited April 3, 2023 by Yours_truly_Ace

[Zooropa_Fly]

They could be pulled a few miles back from the front, with altitude increased.

That's roughly what I do with air starts.

But you know, all up to the map maker / server ops at the end of the day.

[J99_Sizzlorr]

On 4/3/2023 at 4:07 PM, Yours_truly_Ace said:

Couldn't you put the air start / dogfight area far away on the edge of the map or something? it's too close to mission objectives like balloon attack and factory bombing or tanks bombing. it's so annoying having a plane spawn right on your ass as you attack tanks low. 
It really takes the immersion off when you see planes spawning mid air in the middle of the map

I don't see the problem, the low airstart at the center of the map are really far away enough from the other targets to not be an issue. If you keep your altitude you will always have the advantage over the airstart. 

Edited April 5, 2023 by J99_Sizzlorr

[SCG_Faerber]

I do think the airstart could be removed. Leave the area as a "dogfight" zone that AI spawns when numbers are low but not allow players to airspawn.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

8 hours ago, SCG_Faerber said:

I do think the airstart could be removed. Leave the area as a "dogfight" zone that AI spawns when numbers are low but not allow players to airspawn.

Why? Some players do enjoy fighting there, why make them  spend extra time to get there?

[Zooropa_Fly]

It's always going to be an issue when there's only one active server trying to be all things to all players.

IMO The Flug is trying to be both Wargrounds and Aces Falling rolled into one.

I'm sure Sun / Thu nights are great, but unfortunately there's still nowhere near the consistent numbers in FC as there was in RoF.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Yep , I hear voices from community that fast food server would be welcome. Pure airquake, but it need numbers to live.

[ZachariasX]

If you have like 20 min me-time, then fast food is great. Also, when you are not on comms, a server with a total of 4 aircraft can be very empty and you fly around alone, something that is much better done in MSFS. Especially if those three are a club doing objectives along the edge of the map.

 

Without a pit that spawns basically at arms lenght, you will cancel out casual players. It is no help if a "squadron" decides to play and you have a server stacked 1:10. I don't mind getting slaughtered by people who think that on comms gangbaning a loner is "very realistic" and thus the only modus operandi is one thing, but making the loner fly 5 min just to get rekt again is asking much. I mean, then suddenly a lot of alternatives that are more fun in life pop up.

 

The current solution of deactivating the fragging zone if numbers make up for it is the best solution.

 

If you want new players, you must set the bar for a minimum of gratification from their(!) gameplay very low. And don't forget, if you are not on the comms basically chatting with your friends to your discretion, "just flying" is a very boring and tedious grind to most in this game.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

Keep the airstart as is please.

[SCG_Faerber]

18 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Why? Some players do enjoy fighting there, why make them  spend extra time to get there?

Idk sounded like a good compromise lol

Sometimes I do feel, however, that the airstart should lock in lower player numbers than currently

 

[JGr2/J5_Baeumer]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:52 AM, SCG_Faerber said:

Sometimes I do feel, however, that the airstart should lock in lower player numbers than currently

Good suggestion, @SCG_Faerber.  We will look at that. 

[JG4_Moltke1871]

I am a natural declared enemy of airstarts and other simplifications but I understand why the dogfight zone is there, the problem of low number of players, it’s already explained here. There are simply not enough players keep a server running like the Finnish, Combat Box or TAW. But maybe to solve the airstart „problem“ is more airstart? How about extend the airstart zone and make the complete missions frontline/no man’s land an AI Combat air patrol zone with a bot lower density? But than fly a single recon mission will be impossible… ?… more longer I think about it seems the status right now it’s more perfect… ?

 

By the way:

The best server EVER I played was the polish soviet war. This server was close to perfect for me including the cold and dark start. And it was playable alone because the massive ground activity. Put in some AI CAP’s and it would be great let this server run for the public or a server like that. Let it run and if one side have victory conditions restart… I don’t know it’s possible or not but for me it’s a dream ?

[J2_Trupobaw]

Airstarts being this close to objectives is actually a boon for ground atttack pilots - they let you jump into plane, wipe 2-3 objectives, land and be done during 15 minutes work break. 

[NiiranenVR]

Hello 

What is the number of ppl before airstart/ ai zone stops 

Yesterday, and other times before ... 16 ppl in server ...8 central / 4 in airstart 

Couldn't see how many entente , but I guess the plane life was at the dogfight zone so I was out again 

 

[J99_Sizzlorr]

It is at whatever number @J5_Baeumer sets it to.

Edited April 16, 2023 by J99_Sizzlorr

[ZachariasX]

2 hours ago, NiiranenVR said:

Couldn't see how many entente , but I guess the plane life was at the dogfight zone so I was out again 

See, I leave when there's no plane life at the dogfight zone. Whatever they do, it's wrong.

[JGr2/J5_Baeumer]

 

You should fly more.

Edited April 16, 2023 by J5_Baeumer

[ZachariasX]

All fast-food terriory. Glad you have that.

 

Edit: The quip about doing it wrong was meant in the sense that you can‘t do it right for everyone. But as said, I do like the current regime.

Edited April 17, 2023 by ZachariasX