Rheinland still under development?

[76IAP-Black]

Hello guys,

As i was searching through the posts at Stormbirds, i have noticed some objects on the WW1 map that would fit pretty well at the 
Not industrialised "Ruhrgebiet" area at Rheinland. 

There are more city areas missing than where included and in comparision to these pics, i miss the industry on the map.

The objects are already ingame, but not implemented in the Rheinland map.
Is this map considered to be reworked? 

[LuftManu]

This sounds like a great Idea!

[BMA_FlyingShark]

11 minutes ago, LuftManu said:

This sounds like a great Idea!

Me too I like the idea.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[jollyjack]

Indeed, i looked through he ME buildings etc, more stuff seems added with BoN. But those industrial objects above would look great.

Especially for existing maps like Rheinland.

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by jollyjack

[sevenless]

Would make the whole Ruhr Area way more believable.

 

Another one, but that is my personal pet peeve. Why on earth didn´t they model the VERITABLE and BLOCKBUSTER area appropriately with flooded areas and involved towns? I mean TURNSCREW and VARSITY happened there, before the allies went for the Ruhr after the rhine crossings.

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by sevenless

[Jade_Monkey]

On that note, the new the coal slag objects in Normandy map as I believe there were present in northern France.

[BMA_FlyingShark]

5 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

On that note, the new the coal slag objects in Normandy map as I believe there were present in northern France.

There was a lot of coal mining in Belgium too.

I guess they'd fit right on the map there too.

 

Have a nice day.

 

[76IAP-Black]

Would be a blast to have the new objects on the rather empty Rheinland map, to complete it more to the how it should look 

[Trooper117]

Oh good, can we turn this into a mining sim as well?

[71st_AH_Rob_XR-R]

How about a train sim instead?

 

[76IAP-Black]

How about staying on course 

My question is serious and would like have an answer, maybe in the next dev update or interview

[Trooper117]

How about just having a laugh now and then...

[Juri_JS]

I doubt the devs will do any work on the Rhineland map in the future. If you want to see  improvements you can form a team, do it as a community project and offer your work to the developers for official inclusion into the game.

 

Here's the surface editing manual:

 

[dbuile]

31 minutes ago, Juri_JS said:

I doubt the devs will do any work on the Rhineland map in the future. If you want to see  improvements you can form a team, do it as a community project and offer your work to the developers for official inclusion into the game.

It's be cool to make Koeln-Butzweilerhof *look* like it should.  I wonder if the dev team would ever replace the buildings with more accurate versions, if developed (alas I'm not a 3D modeler  )

 

Image attached from :  http://www.koelner-luftfahrt.de/Butzweilerhof_1936_Architektur_Hauptportal.htm

 

[JediMaster]

Isn't the real question "will adding more to the RL map as it currently stands negatively effect performance on lower-end PCs?"

 

If more stuff is added to the point that people need to lower their graphics settings to maintain playability, they won't be able to appreciate the things that have been added...

 

Now I don't know how much any one of these ideas might matter, but I dare say if it was all added in the amounts some here seem to wish for there's little chance it would have NO impact.

[76IAP-Black]

There was a survey to check what GPU the folks are using, and the majority is using far more advanced hardware than I first thought.

 

3080 seems to be the standart with the proper hardware. I'm using just a 1080 and i know that il2 GB is a piece of software, build for more than 10 years in advance 

[Halon]

6 hours ago, 71st_AH_Rob_XR-R said:

How about a train sim instead?

 

 

Capital idea!

 

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

The empty Rheinland Map should ABSOLUTELY be reworked to include sporadic farmhouses, in addition to more agricultural and industrial objects we have here to populate cities, suburbs, and agricultural areas.

 

There are also many custom objects created by @Hamaha15 that should be added. Fixes to the trees, rivers and river banks, lighting, and textures by @rowdyb00t should be added as well. 

 

IMO, a team should be formed to improve all of the maps, i.e. textures, grass, trees, lack of/wrong buildings, etc. that should start with improving and repackaging the Rheinland Map into one package which should be offered to the devs who should then check/edit and patch this into the game. Afterwards, they should flesh out the Channel Map by adding missing landmarks (Mont. St. Michel, English lighthouses, fix improper cathedrals in Canterbury and Salisbury, Add missing Hotel De Ville in Calais, etc.). I am sure a winter map could also be created quite easily like has been done with Kuban and others.

 

If different aspect of the maps were improved and bundled into one installable pack, I'd happily add it to my modpack, IL-2 Enhanced, but for now we can only mod various textures and only add objects through mission files which is kinda lame.

 

The devs really should let the community help with things like this as they could then focus solely on core game engine, graphic engine, and additional content/vehicles/planes.

 

@Wardog5711 Could you put in a word for us?

Edited December 13, 2022 by drewm3i-VR

[Gambit21]

14 minutes ago, drewm3i-VR said:

The empty Rheinland Map should ABSOLUTELY be reworked to include sporadic farmhouses, in addition to more agricultural and industrial objects we have here to populate cities, suburbs, and agricultural areas.

 

 

 

 

Bastogne area.

 

 

[AEthelraedUnraed]

3 hours ago, JediMaster said:

Isn't the real question "will adding more to the RL map as it currently stands negatively effect performance on lower-end PCs?"

Very good question. From my testing with all the various surface files while writing my surface editing manual (that Juri_JS linked above), surface decals have a negligible effect on performance. From my mission writing experience, I'd say the same holds true for the objects themselves unless there's a really huge lot of them. But of course, some kind of limit exists, and for lower-end PCs it does have a noticeable impact. This depends somewhat on where the additional details are; if they're in the countryside, there's little in the way of other objects and one could safely add more. If it's right next to a big city that already has a gazillion buildings, perhaps not.

 

1 hour ago, drewm3i-VR said:

IMO, a team should be formed to improve all of the maps, i.e. textures, grass, trees, lack of/wrong buildings, etc. that should start with improving and repackaging the Rheinland Map into one package which should be offered to the devs who should then check/edit and patch this into the game.

Well, if you feel like you could be of assistance, please let me know

 

1 hour ago, drewm3i-VR said:

If different aspect of the maps were improved and bundled into one installable pack, I'd happily add it to my modpack, IL-2 Enhanced

I think @Hamaha15 did make a sort of bundle once containing all the major terrain modifications I know of, including his own Ardennes modifications and my Hürtgenwald ones.

 

1 hour ago, Gambit21 said:

Bastogne area.

Honestly, I think you should add Hamaha15's Bastogne mod to your campaign. It really adds to the whole atmosphere of the area. Also, there's no need to have it as a mod; you can include it in your missions in such a way as that everything works "out of the box" without any additional actions or downloads by the player

[Gambit21]

Good thought...I'll investigate. Thank you.

I don't have time at the moment, but I'd like to learn about this for possibly modifying the campaign later.

 

 

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

45 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Very good question. From my testing with all the various surface files while writing my surface editing manual (that Juri_JS linked above), surface decals have a negligible effect on performance. From my mission writing experience, I'd say the same holds true for the objects themselves unless there's a really huge lot of them. But of course, some kind of limit exists, and for lower-end PCs it does have a noticeable impact. This depends somewhat on where the additional details are; if they're in the countryside, there's little in the way of other objects and one could safely add more. If it's right next to a big city that already has a gazillion buildings, perhaps not.

 

Well, if you feel like you could be of assistance, please let me know

 

I think @Hamaha15 did make a sort of bundle once containing all the major terrain modifications I know of, including his own Ardennes modifications and my Hürtgenwald ones.

 

Honestly, I think you should add Hamaha15's Bastogne mod to your campaign. It really adds to the whole atmosphere of the area. Also, there's no need to have it as a mod; you can include it in your missions in such a way as that everything works "out of the box" without any additional actions or downloads by the player

1. Absolutely, happy to help, test, and promote in any way possible. I have some experience modding texture files and what not and could definitely be a help in terms of expanding certain empty areas, as well as adding more suitable objects to certain places. PM me?

 

2. Packaging all of the scenery as a basis for a universal mission file has its merits in terms of simplicity, but frankly it's a bandaid and a bit of an insult to those who have taken the time to improve the game of their own accord for no ulterior motive. Also, it doesn't benefit people who make their own missions or fly online primarily.

Edited December 14, 2022 by drewm3i-VR

[Skycat1969]

I have the Battle of the Hurtgen campaign and I found the Hamaha15 map changes posted here: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/14803-the-groups-sharing-corner/?do=findComment&comment=1194240. Serious question: will these appear in the default career mode? And if not, is there a way to enhance the Battle of Rheinland career with these files?

 

 

[Jeroen83]

Making this a community effort is a great idea. Adding farms etc.

 

The water also needs work: the map is lacking the visuals like the normandy map. It is possible to add sandbanks, beaches etc. However there is a bug in de mission editor that makes it impossible to do this: any added textures in the Rheinland map disappear from a distance, which really is a shame. Otherwise, I would already have started adding sandbanks, shorelines, beaches and dunes.

[Trooper117]

I'd hate to be the bloke who has to pull that barrel through!...

 

[Wardog5711]

Quote

IMO, a team should be formed to improve all of the maps, i.e. textures, grass, trees, lack of/wrong buildings, etc. that should start with improving and repackaging the Rheinland Map into one package which should be offered to the devs who should then check/edit and patch this into the game. Afterwards, they should flesh out the Channel Map by adding missing landmarks (Mont. St. Michel, English lighthouses, fix improper cathedrals in Canterbury and Salisbury, Add missing Hotel De Ville in Calais, etc.). I am sure a winter map could also be created quite easily like has been done with Kuban and others.

 

@drewm3i-VR

I'll need a rough outline of the project plan as a first step.

Something detailed enough that it can be sent up the chain of command for initial review. But keep it realistic. 

And if you have some team members in mind, now would be the time to start rounding them up.

 

 

 

[Gambit21]

@Wardog5711 If this were to go anywhere, I’d need to be looped in as changes to the Rhineland map could break/compromise Hell Hawks missions and/or other scripted campaigns. I (or Alex to his woke) may need to possibly make adjustments.
 

Further this might require VikS altering the Rhineland career template. Since where there was a field before (and maybe units placed) there might now be a village etc. So while I LOVE this whole notion, it may also make more work than seems obvious on the surface. 

 

On the positive end, This is much needed. Also I’ve had a “Tigers in the Snow” tank campaign on the back burner for a long time. If the map improved, I just might be tempted.

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Gambit21

[Wardog5711]

Understood.

That's why I would need to see a proposed project plan and team members before it went anywhere.

I'm all about getting folks in touch with the team as mentioned in the stream, but it has to be a legit plan with something solid to pass on.

 

[352ndOscar]

This asset grouping thing could be pretty tricky because as I remember @Hamaha15said when he combined some of the parts of the “106th ID - Lion in the Way” package, there were some terrible texture alignment issues he had to deal with combining different object mods.  Like @Gambit21, I also have been working on some combined ops MP missions using @Hamaha15mod, but I’m still in the historical research and template creation stage….a long way to go yet to capture what I’m looking for.

[Jaegermeister]

20 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Very good question. From my testing with all the various surface files while writing my surface editing manual (that Juri_JS linked above), surface decals have a negligible effect on performance. From my mission writing experience, I'd say the same holds true for the objects themselves unless there's a really huge lot of them. But of course, some kind of limit exists, and for lower-end PCs it does have a noticeable impact. This depends somewhat on where the additional details are; if they're in the countryside, there's little in the way of other objects and one could safely add more. If it's right next to a big city that already has a gazillion buildings, perhaps not.

 

I think the only real performance issue you will see with adding more ground textures and objects is a slightly longer loading time for the mission.

 

To the OP's original question...

 

On 12/13/2022 at 9:02 AM, 76IAP-Black said:

The objects are already ingame, but not implemented in the Rheinland map.
Is this map considered to be reworked? 

 

You most likely won't see the Dev team go back and rework any maps to enhance them. That's 2 modules in the past now. A community team project as suggested above would be the way to go to take the Rhineland map to the next level, or to enhance the Normandy map if that becomes a priority. 

[jollyjack]

The Microsoft's route to commercial success was to build unfinished software and sell it, then offer free repairs, and then later a 'new' version at a 'new' price.

 

3rd party soft and hardware left behind or being forced to spend money and dev time to stay alive.

 

It's that way with other sim games too, f.i. Train Simulator, then version 2020, then Train sim World 2, now version 3.

 

Like with RoF and even IL-1946, it happened. Only customers refusing to get along with this policy seem to keep the oldies alive.

A friend still uses windows 2000 professionally for audio, and refuses to obey Bill Gates policies.

'End Of Service' they call that business; has just been announced for my wife's 9 year old but perfect working Dell laptop.

 

[76IAP-Black]

We had a rework of the Battle of Stalingrad map and Textures and last time as i was communicating with one of the devs, regarding some faulty areas around Duisburg on the Rheinland map and other areas, they told me it is scheduled for 2022 to fix it.

So i have the hope, the guys plan to rework the "old" map with the new objects already ingame. 
It would enhance the game alot and be more eyecandy like for the future

[Picchio]

3 hours ago, Wardog5711 said:

Understood.

That's why I would need to see a proposed project plan and team members before it went anywhere.

I'm all about getting folks in touch with the team as mentioned in the stream, but it has to be a legit plan with something solid to pass on.

 

 

@Hamaha15 has been working on his improvements for some time now. Please do have a look at this thread first and get in touch with him!

 

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

10 hours ago, Wardog5711 said:

 

@drewm3i-VR

I'll need a rough outline of the project plan as a first step.

Something detailed enough that it can be sent up the chain of command for initial review. But keep it realistic. 

And if you have some team members in mind, now would be the time to start rounding them up.

 

 

 

PM sent with a general plan and potential team members to get the ball rolling! ?

[AEthelraedUnraed]

5 hours ago, 352ndOscar said:

This asset grouping thing could be pretty tricky because as I remember @Hamaha15said when he combined some of the parts of the “106th ID - Lion in the Way” package, there were some terrible texture alignment issues he had to deal with combining different object mods.

True, combining surface files is difficult. However, I've made a tool to automate that process (as well as a couple of other useful functions) that has been shared with a select few people here. I'm not quite sure openly distributing my tools is, well, allowed, since I've had to kinda reverse-engineer the .dat format to build it. @Wardog5711?

 

1 hour ago, Picchio said:

@Hamaha15 has been working on his improvements for some time now. Please do have a look at this thread first and get in touch with him!

Absolutely! Hamaha is, I think, the main contributor of the terrain mods so far, with myself mainly providing some technical know-how (besides the Hürtgen terrain, of course).

 

1 hour ago, drewm3i-VR said:

PM sent with a general plan and potential team members to get the ball rolling! ?

Let's not get too far ahead now - it would be a shame if multiple people went to work on the same thing. Let's take it slow and make sure there's at least *some* sort of coordination between people who want to help improve the Rheinland map.

 

Also, you've got a PM incoming

Edited December 15, 2022 by AEthelraedUnraed

[jollyjack]

It's a pity if all that work Hamaha15 (and you?) among others done so far might be wasted. Those Bastogne edits are nice.

 

About 1.5 years ago i stated with the Dutch coastal areas (Hamaha too around Vlissingen).

Gave up as you could not create the dunes along the coast; with the ME then you could edit terrain heights, but not save them to any game file.

And there's no way to remove ridiculously placed trees in unnatural places.

[Jeroen83]

Actually , creating dunes is now possible with some creative use of the objects that make up the cliffs in the Normandy map. I’ve done so in a test case and it looks quite nice. 
 

Still, as mentioned before, there is a BUG that causes custom texture on top of the water to disappear from a distance.
 

Imo: If you want to create dunes, you must create beaches. If you want to create beaches, you must create sandbanks. In order to do this, the bug should be fixed. 
 

I’m all in for creating a lifelike Dutch coast if the bug is fixed.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

31 minutes ago, Jeroen83 said:

Actually , creating dunes is now possible with some creative use of the objects that make up the cliffs in the Normandy map. I’ve done so in a test case and it looks quite nice. 
 

Still, as mentioned before, there is a BUG that causes custom texture on top of the water to disappear from a distance.
 

Imo: If you want to create dunes, you must create beaches. If you want to create beaches, you must create sandbanks. In order to do this, the bug should be fixed. 
 

I’m all in for creating a lifelike Dutch coast if the bug is fixed.

There aren't supposed to be any textures on top of the water, so not a bug at all. Water colours (i.e. sandbanks) are regulated through a different system

 

Water types are really meant as such, meaning the type of the water/seabed itself. Which by definition makes it unsuitable for beaches, and by definition makes land surfaces unsuitable for water. If you want to have bigger beaches, you'll have to either edit the water maps or extend the beaches inland, not add some kind of texture on top of the sea because as you've found out, that won't work. That's not any kind of bug; it's by design, and in this case I tend to agree with the design.

 

The main problem here is that we don't have all the tools. Editing surfaces is a hassle. Editing water maps is a hell of a job. Editing coastal effects etc. is, as far as I'm aware, still impossible.

Edited December 15, 2022 by AEthelraedUnraed

[Jeroen83]

35 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

There aren't supposed to be any textures on top of the water, so not a bug at all. Water colours (i.e. sandbanks) are regulated through a different system

 

Water types are really meant as such, meaning the type of the water/seabed itself. Which by definition makes it unsuitable for beaches, and by definition makes land surfaces unsuitable for water. If you want to have bigger beaches, you'll have to either edit the water maps or extend the beaches inland, not add some kind of texture on top of the sea because as you've found out, that won't work. That's not any kind of bug; it's by design, and in this case I tend to agree with the design.

 

The main problem here is that we don't have all the tools. Editing surfaces is a hassle. Editing water maps is a hell of a job. Editing coastal effects etc. is, as far as I'm aware, still impossible.

Sorry Aethel, but this is not true.

 

In the Normandy map, the water CAN and HAS been edited by adding textures and this creates a very lifelike effect, when used with the proper specular and transparency effect.

 

The dev team has done this themselves at ie the harbours and river exits in the North Sea to create nice depth effects. It is also present in the Kuban map. Rheinland map is the only map where this is not possible.

[Jeroen83]

I have created these kind of effects myself using the surface editor. Unfortunately I don’t have any pictures of them readily available to show , but it is possible.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Jeroen83