Too Many Planes for VR?

[spreckair]

I have the following:

 

Intel I-7 11700

32 GB RAM 3200

RTX 3080

HP Reverb G2

 

During a single player bomber escort mission on the Kuban map, as soon as the number of aircraft increases significantly (up to about 25 plus), my CPU is becoming severely bottlenecked and everything slows down to a miserable crawl.  Is this to be expected?  I guess what I am asking is, is not really possible to fly in VR with this many aircraft in the air at one time with an Intel I-7 11700?

 

If anyone is playing with an HP Reverb G2 and is not experiencing this issue with a whole lot of planes in the air, I would be very interested in knowing what you are running and how you have things set up.  I have been trying every suggested setting on this forum, and I can't seem to solve this one.  Thank you in advance.

 

 

[dgiatr]

Hello,

 

i have inferior cpu (i5 10600k) than yours with 3090 ti gpu and i still have a good image quality inside my G2 and 80-90 fps most of the time. Whats your fps?

 

i fly with relatively low resolution about 2600x2650 for better spotting reasons ( i dont think that having higher resolutions would make much of a difference thought- of course image clarity is better) , with 2xMSAA AA, 40 km DRAWING DISTANCE, no MIRRORS, no SHADOWS, Medium CLOUDS, opencomposite , openxr toolkit, 100% CAS sharpness.

Of course during dense scenarios with many objects all around and while flying quite low, i am cpu bottlenecked too dropping my fps to 60-70 fps and having some stuttering.  I am thinking of upgrading my cpu in the near future....maybe Santa could do something about it....

 

Whats your settings?

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

Intel 11th gen is pretty poor overall as it is still 14nm+++++++++++♾️ and not much better than 8th-10th gen. You would see a nice uplift with a ryzen 5800x3d, 7000 series or Intel 12th/13th gen i5 paired with fast ram with tight timings.

Edited December 6, 2022 by drewm3i-VR

[spreckair]

@drewm3i-VR @dgiatr

 

Thank you for the input.  For most of my flying, my FPS is in the 80s or 90s, but that's when there are only 8 to 12 or so aircraft in the sky.  When the number of aircraft goes up considerably, my FPS is dropping into the middle 40s and middle 50s, but the image is terrible and everything slows down.  In FPSVR, it is showing that the CPU is stressed and bottlenecking, even though it is not running at full capacity and not overheating.

I was hoping to stretch out my use of the I7 11700, but maybe I need to build a new rig sooner than I thought?

Edited December 6, 2022 by spreckair
corrected grammar

[slikslik]

No need to upgrade in my opinion.  The 11700 has a turbo boost at about 4.4ghz.  Plenty of headroom.  My CPU is the 11700K with a turbo boost at 4.8ghz.  Not that much difference compared to your cpu.  .  I have the 8kx and run it with game settings maxed out escorting dozens of bombers etc. with a 3090, and no stuttering, slowdowns etc.   You have enough ram, and your video card is right on also.  My hardware may be a bit faster than yours, but not enough to be that noticeable.  I think your issue lies elsewhere.  Most likely in the game settings.  Lowering things like grass, shadows, clouds or just a few minor adjustments will probably fix your problem.  Someone here might be able to assist you with those tweaks.  Good luck buddy...take care   Eddie.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

I disagree with slikslik. Intel 11th gen is just very outdated and will struggle with time dilation due to ancient micro architecture causing poor IPC. Clock speeds mean almost zilch here. With my ryzen 5800x3d and its huge l3 cache, I almost never see cpu frame times above 10ms in VR. With my old 5600x, which is far better than Intel 11th gen for il-2 which requires good single core performance and strong IPC, I had intermittent microstuttering and occasional time dilation. Intel 12th and 13th gen or ryzen 5800x3d/7000 series would be a substantial upgrade.

[chiliwili69]

The issue you are describing has been well documented by @firdimigdi in this post, you can try to reproduce it easily:

 

It basically depends on the number of AI objects in the scene which saturates the CPU.

 

A better CPU (like 12th/13th or Zen4) will improve things (more AI objects until frame rate drops) but at the end you will be also affected.

 

Ideally AI objects should be treated in parallel CPU threads, so the load could be distributed  among CPU cores.

 

[dgiatr]

3 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

The issue you are describing has been well documented by @firdimigdi in this post, you can try to reproduce it easily:

 

It basically depends on the number of AI objects in the scene which saturates the CPU.

 

A better CPU (like 12th/13th or Zen4) will improve things (more AI objects until frame rate drops) but at the end you will be also affected.

 

Ideally AI objects should be treated in parallel CPU threads, so the load could be distributed  among CPU cores.

 

What about multiplayer (as Finnish server ) when stuttering happens while having 80, 85 or even 87 fps in G2 Hp when some objects (tanks, smokes, planes) can be found all around? what do you think could be the reason for that? Is that normal with so high fps to suffer from stuttering? In your cpu  tests i am bottlenecked by my 10th generation cpu  (i5 10600k) and not my 3090ti card, but then my fps drop to 50, 60 fps so i think its normal then to suffer from stuttering but now with 80,85, 87 fps why?

When i had my quest q2 i always had 72 fps with no stuttering then...

Edited December 9, 2022 by dgiatr

[slikslik]

If my 11th gen intel cpu is outdated, why am I not having ANY stutters ever in IL 2.  I have the 8kx which I understand is more demanding than the G2.  The only problems I've ever really had with IL 2 in VR, was the Pimax PiTool, and Steam VR settings etc.  Fortunately, I have the 11700K on the Z590 mobo 32gigs of ram and a 3090 video card.  Both CPU and Vid card are water cooled via closed loop. Maybe THAT is what allows me to fly without stuttering or slowdowns etc.   As far as I'm concerned, the 11th gen 1100 series, combined with a decent mpbo etc. is still  an OK CPU.. . 

[spreckair]

@slikslik  Would you be willing to post screenshots of your NVIDIA, IL-2 and SteamVR settings so that I could try them out?  If your rig is performing well, then I would like to see if I can replicate your results.  Thank you.

[slikslik]

Hi sprekair.  Sorry it's taking me so long to reply.   This was the first time I tried taking a steam screen shot, and I somehow screwed up.  I clicked F12 when on the page I want a screen shot of, and then I have no idea where to find it. I checked my file explorer, downloads etc. but it's nowhere to be found.  What am I doing wrong?   The info I gave regarding no stuttering etc. is true, and I do want to help you with the Nvidia and IL 2 Video settings.  The CPU you have may not be a new generation, but in my opinion, your 11700 ain't dead yet.  I have the similar CPU, the 11700K, and I have no need to consider upgrading yet.  My opinion only. What's the best and most simple way to take a Steam etc. screenshot?  I really gotta do this.  Thanks buddy...ttyl   take care   Eddie.

[chiliwili69]

On 12/9/2022 at 10:00 AM, chiliwili69 said:

The issue you are describing has been well documented by @firdimigdi in this post, you can try to reproduce it easily

 

Sorry, I have just realized that the issue you were describing is different from the issue reported by @firdimigdi

 

You just experiment sttuters AND heavy drop of fps.

 

But the post of @firdimigdi is having sttuters with solid 90fps in singleplayer dense AI objects.

 

Maybe both issues might have common roots, but if you experiment fps heavy drop when there are many AI objects, then the bottleneck is the CPU. (The GPU load remains the same).

 

You can try to run the SYN_VANDER just to be sure your results are aligned with others and there are no other hidden issues.

 

On 12/9/2022 at 1:03 PM, dgiatr said:

What about multiplayer (as Finnish server ) when stuttering happens while having 80, 85 or even 87 fps in G2 Hp when some objects (tanks, smokes, planes) can be found all around?

I have no idea about the sttuters in MP. (I don´t play MP).

There is a long post about that you might already know 

 

On 12/9/2022 at 1:03 PM, dgiatr said:

When i had my quest q2 i always had 72 fps with no stuttering then...

Well, the Q2 only need 72 frames per second, and your G2 need 90. So, with the G2 you reach the bottleneck sooner.

On 12/9/2022 at 5:01 PM, slikslik said:

I have the 8kx

At what frequency do you run the 8KX?

[slikslik]

Hi chiliwili  I run the 8kx  DMAS  [2076] at it's native 90hz.  I have the 120hx option, but I've never needed it.

[chiliwili69]

11 hours ago, slikslik said:

I run the 8kx  DMAS  [2076] at it's native 90hz.

 

You know that you have also a 75Hz mode?  This will relax your CPU load for dense scenarios.

 

You said you never had sttuters running at 90Hz with a 11700K. But, do you have fps below 90 in dense scenarios?  (SYNVADER bench for example or Kuban with 25 planes)

[slikslik]

Hi chiliwili69.   Yes, my frame rated do drop well below 90.  Even in dense scenarios and FPS as low as 40 or more, don't cause stuttering. My 8kx DMAS is my second 8kx.  The first was the SMAS at 75hz native. The PC I had running it at the time is my Asus WS Sage mobo, 9940X CPU, Nvidia 2080 Ti, 16gigs ram etc.  The 9940X was cooled with an AIO unit, the Video card on air. .  With that setup, I did have a bit of stuttering at certain points, but I think that was because I didn't know what I was doing with that first 8kx and playing with PiTool , Steam and Video settings etc.  I'm STILL in the learning curve.  Thankfully, I registered here, and I could not have found a better place to get answers to my sometimes stupid questions. Strike the last 3 words.  There's no such thing as a stupid question.  Thanks again my friend   take care   Eddie.

[chiliwili69]

On 12/13/2022 at 9:32 PM, slikslik said:

Yes, my frame rated do drop well below 90.  Even in dense scenarios and FPS as low as 40 or more, don't cause stuttering.

 

Thanks, I didn´t know the 8KX only allows 90Hz.

 

Any time the fps goes below the native framerate (90 in your case, 80 in my case) it is noticed a "micro-stuttering" in all edges of moving objects outside the plane (trees, houses, etc) and easily seen in planes crossing near you. That´s why I want to be at 80fps.

 

In any scene with more than 20-25 planes, even if the fps is kept at 80, there is a stutter in the landscape when rolling left and right. This was the issue reported by firdimidgi above.

Edited December 15, 2022 by chiliwili69

[slikslik]

Just to be clear, the "new"  8kx DMAS 2076 is not limited to 90hz.  The 8kx with a serial number beginning with 2076 WILL allow a 120hz mode with a PiTool firmware update.  The 8kx SMAS is the original 8kx with the 75hz mode. I gave that one to my brother and bought the upgraded DMAS version.  The only real difference is in the audio selection of DMAS allowing the 120hz mode which I never use. They also have the KDMAS version.  It gets confusing, so if anyone plans on ordering a new 8kx, get the DMAS model with the 2076  serial number.     Thanks again chiliwili69.  take care...

[spreckair]

Thank you all for the input.  After all is said and done, I think both sides to the argument are right.  On the one hand, I reset all of my settings to defaults and started all over again tweaking for an optimal solution, and it seems that I have somewhat solved the issue of the slowing and crappy visuals when there are lots of aircraft.  On the other hand, I think my I-7 11700K will only get me so far, and that I will continue to be close to the edge of not so great.  But at least performance is acceptable for now; I would like to not upgrade for at least another year.

[dburne]

5 hours ago, spreckair said:

Thank you all for the input.  After all is said and done, I think both sides to the argument are right.  On the one hand, I reset all of my settings to defaults and started all over again tweaking for an optimal solution, and it seems that I have somewhat solved the issue of the slowing and crappy visuals when there are lots of aircraft.  On the other hand, I think my I-7 11700K will only get me so far, and that I will continue to be close to the edge of not so great.  But at least performance is acceptable for now; I would like to not upgrade for at least another year.

 

I am doing the same here with my i9 9900k and RTX 3090 GPU. Not in any hurry as I get an acceptable experience and enjoy it very much, so will be likely at least another year before I take the plunge on a complete new build. 

[spreckair]

@dburne  Any thoughts on how you will proceed next year?  Or is it still too early?  I guess with the way that Intel releases a new generation every other day, it is hard to predict what the next build will look like.

[dburne]

13 minutes ago, spreckair said:

@dburne  Any thoughts on how you will proceed next year?  Or is it still too early?  I guess with the way that Intel releases a new generation every other day, it is hard to predict what the next build will look like.

 

Yeah no idea really - part of me is tempted to go ahead and do an i9 13000k/ RTX 4090 build but I really really just want to wait another year and see what is out there. Mainly cause I am not hurting bad in performance and still having very pleasurable flight sim experience in my Aero with current setup. Plus I have some other things going on that tends to give me pause for now. I am sure the 4090 GPU will still be king at that time, but should at least be another generation of CPU.

I spent a lot of money the last couple of years on this hobby and my wallet deserves a bit of a break as well lol.

 

[RAAF492SQNOz_Steve]

4 hours ago, dburne said:

 

Yeah no idea really - part of me is tempted to go ahead and do an i9 13000k/ RTX 4090 build but I really really just want to wait another year and see what is out there. Mainly cause I am not hurting bad in performance and still having very pleasurable flight sim experience in my Aero with current setup. Plus I have some other things going on that tends to give me pause for now. I am sure the 4090 GPU will still be king at that time, but should at least be another generation of CPU.

I spent a lot of money the last couple of years on this hobby and my wallet deserves a bit of a break as well lol.

 

I am interested in what a 7800X3D would bring to the table as I already am super impressed with the 5800X3D. 7800X3D interest more so for MS FS than IL2.

In reality however, my 5800X3D and RTX 4090 gives me a great/superb IL 2 90 Hz experience in the Varjo Aero. Seriously spoilt!

You still have to make some compromises but they are at the high end...

i.e. IL2 High Settings, MSAA x2 and Varjo  37ppd.

My excuse for blowing so much cash on computer toys?
Apart from the fun and tinker factor, still working, but only have another year or two to go then the money flow dries up.

[slikslik]

Foe me, it's a no brainer regarding upgraded of Video, CPU, ram etc.  I'm going to upgrade my 8kx to the 12K and get the price I paid for the 8kx applied to the 12K cost.  By the time the 12K is released for purchase, there will no doubt be  new Video cards, CPU, motherboards etc. that make the latest Intel 1300 series and AMD 7900 series  seem almost obsolete.    I figure at least another year for the 12K release, and a LOT can happen in a year.  A lot happens in 6 months.  I'll know exactly what I want when the 12K is released for sale in Canada.  Meantime, I'm like dburne.  Everything is fine for now, so why bother changing anything until we see what's available in 6 months or so.     

[=THORN=Sphere-]

Nvidia 3080

AMd R5 5600x

32meg 3600

Quest 2

 

Bit late to the party with my reply but have you tried lowering your max fps to the lowest you find comfortable?

 

  I run at 72 but in the past have run at 45 when I had older hardware which without micro stutter can be very playable and smooth.  People feel differently.  I have a Quest 2 to which Oculus has ASW which drops the frames by half (I can force it on) but this causes ghosting. 

 

  If you set your graphics to maximum (you have the 3080) (not including msaa) and can set your FPS to around 60 you may well find you get hardly any different gameplay or possibly smoother but everything looks much prettier.

 

  Simply because your GPU is powerful enough but your CPU just can't send the frames. If you can play with less frames comfortably you'll get smoother gameplay as your CPU will find it easier to keep up. Frame times are the main reason for stutter but if you have frame drops on top it makes thing worse. If your GPU wants 90 frames but your CPU can only supply 60 on average. You get frame time and frame loss. Push the graphics so bring your FPS down and you end up with a smoother over all. Seems mad but I've tried everything to remove my stutter and this is what I've found has helped the most. 

 

 Worth having a play and look. 

 

 

[dgiatr]

Thats a cpu bottleneck problem for sure if you have strong enough gpu. I had microstutters me too with my i5 10600k cpu and 3090 ti card with high fps!! But after making some overclocking to my cpu going from 4,5 ghz to 5.0 ghz, microstuttering with high fps when there are many objects all around in multiplayer just become very small almost disappeared. I also have about 10_12 more fps in 1080p cpu synvander benchmark after overclocking.

Edited December 24, 2022 by dgiatr

[=THORN=Sphere-]

On 12/24/2022 at 10:53 PM, dgiatr said:

Thats a cpu bottleneck problem for sure if you have strong enough gpu. I had microstutters me too with my i5 10600k cpu and 3090 ti card with high fps!! But after making some overclocking to my cpu going from 4,5 ghz to 5.0 ghz, microstuttering with high fps when there are many objects all around in multiplayer just become very small almost disappeared. I also have about 10_12 more fps in 1080p cpu synvander benchmark after overclocking.

Looking to upgrade from the 5600x to the 5800x3D as this seems to do precisely that going by reviews. Sadly AMDs don't overclock and if they do its pretty minimal.  Funny thing is, people have mentioned they get slightly lower FPS due to the 5800x3D having a lower frequency but they get much smoother gameplay. The 3D really helps the the frame time/minimums. 

[RAAF492SQNOz_Steve]

8 hours ago, [THORN]oOSphereOo said:

Looking to upgrade from the 5600x to the 5800x3D as this seems to do precisely that going by reviews. Sadly AMDs don't overclock and if they do its pretty minimal.  Funny thing is, people have mentioned they get slightly lower FPS due to the 5800x3D having a lower frequency but they get much smoother gameplay. The 3D really helps the the frame time/minimums. 

"they get slightly lower FPS due to the 5800x3D having a lower frequency"

I did not see this occur when using IL2 or MSFS. Got a modest increase in fps when swapping from a 5800x.
Very much agree with the 'much smoother gameplay' comment.

I have a MSI Tomahawk X570 motherboard that I recently discovered, allows a Bios undervolt for the 5800x3D.
Am now running a -30 all core undervolt and this translates into a average frequency increase from 4.35 GHz to 4.4 Ghz for Max Boost. So, quite modest but every bit helps especially if you enjoy 'fiddling'.
You can do the same thing with PBO2 but I did not need to use it.

 

i.e. using the much maligned User Benchmark tool

Edited December 26, 2022 by RAAF492SQNOz_Steve
Typo's plus added image

[=THORN=Sphere-]

I under cooked

12 hours ago, RAAF492SQNOz_Steve said:

"they get slightly lower FPS due to the 5800x3D having a lower frequency"

I did not see this occur when using IL2 or MSFS. Got a modest increase in fps when swapping from a 5800x.
Very much agree with the 'much smoother gameplay' comment.

I have a MSI Tomahawk X570 motherboard that I recently discovered, allows a Bios undervolt for the 5800x3D.
Am now running a -30 all core undervolt and this translates into a average frequency increase from 4.35 GHz to 4.4 Ghz for Max Boost. So, quite modest but every bit helps especially if you enjoy 'fiddling'.
You can do the same thing with PBO2 but I did not need to use it.

 

i.e. using the much maligned User Benchmark tool

I've run the -30 under volt on my 5600x and get very similar results. Sits quite steadily at 4.7. 

Good news on the 5800x3D though. And if your hitting 110% on any benchmark you can't complain. ? Very nice. ?

[spreckair]

So...I built a new system with an I7 13700K and DDR5 RAM, but still using my RTX 3080 with my HP G2.  This is a huge improvement from the I7 11700K.  I can now fly in densely populated airspace without the CPU overstressing...most of the time.  There is the occasional moment when too many planes causes some slow-down, but this is rare compared to the frequency with the older processor.  I can enjoy the game again with 80-90 FPS and very rare CPU hickups.

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

On 1/26/2023 at 3:26 PM, spreckair said:

So...I built a new system with an I7 13700K and DDR5 RAM, but still using my RTX 3080 with my HP G2.  This is a huge improvement from the I7 11700K.  I can now fly in densely populated airspace without the CPU overstressing...most of the time.  There is the occasional moment when too many planes causes some slow-down, but this is rare compared to the frequency with the older processor.  I can enjoy the game again with 80-90 FPS and very rare CPU hickups.

Good stuff. I tried to tell everyone above that 14nm Intel just couldn't cut it in VR. Glad to see the uplift!

 

Now, I wonder if tweaking certain cpu intensive parameters would eliminated this TD for you completely?

[Oboe]

How much RAM did you use Spreckair?  I have an 11700K also, with a 3080 and a Reverb G2...  

[spreckair]

@Oboe  In the previous 11700K, I had 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4-3200.  With the new 13700K, I have 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR5-5600.

 

[spreckair]

@drewm3i-VR  I recently read that clouds use a lot of CPU, so I turned clouds down to low , which I have mixed feelings about.  I love well-rendered clouds, so would like to keep them on as high as I can, but with clouds turned down, it does appear to make a significant improvement in CPU performance.

[chiliwili69]

16 hours ago, spreckair said:

I recently read that clouds use a lot of CPU

where did you read that?

[voodoomom]

I have also in Vr problems with performance when there are a lot of Planes and Vehicles.

I run a 5950x with a 4090 and a Valve Index @ 80hz . In settings i put everthing on low  or off and balance. In steam i am between 120% and 140%

May core is on 5.1 in single core

 

then its playable. The most  i play only quickmission for most times

 

But i thing i will upgrade and back to intel with a 13900k and ddr5 on a 790 board

 

I want also change to a Varjo aero. And higher Settings

Edited January 29, 2023 by voodoomom

[Oboe]

Are any of you guys using Win  11?   I upgraded and seemed to lose about 5-10 fps so I went back to Win 10...

[chiliwili69]

On 1/29/2023 at 6:34 PM, voodoomom said:

But i thing i will upgrade and back to intel with a 13900k and ddr5 on a 790 board

If you upgrade to the 13900K it would be interesting if you could run the SYN_VANDER bench before/after the change just to check how much you gain.

[RAAF492SQNOz_Steve]

On 1/30/2023 at 4:34 AM, voodoomom said:

I have also in Vr problems with performance when there are a lot of Planes and Vehicles.

I run a 5950x with a 4090 and a Valve Index @ 80hz . In settings i put everthing on low  or off and balance. In steam i am between 120% and 140%

May core is on 5.1 in single core

 

then its playable. The most  i play only quickmission for most times

 

But i thing i will upgrade and back to intel with a 13900k and ddr5 on a 790 board

 

I want also change to a Varjo aero. And higher Settings

Why not just swap to a 5800x3D?

I use the 5800X3D and RTX 4090 with a Varjo Aero and can run High graphics settings at 90 Hz pretty much all the time with IL2.
I recently got a 81 fps average for the Varjo Aero in the Syn_Vander VR2 test and I consider that to be a somewhat extreme test when compared to typical IL2 scenario's

 

Bit surprised by your comments about the 5950X, would have thought you would have got better results with the Valve Index than you are reporting.
Have you done the Syn_Vander test and compared your results to other 5950X CPU's?

What RAM speed and timings do you have set?

 

If you do wish to do a complete CPU/RAM/Motherboard upgrade, recommend waiting until the Ryzen 7000 series X3D chips have been tested.
Should be released in the next month.

Then make your decision. The new X3D chips may end up being a better performer than the 13th Gen Intel CPU's (For VR Flight Sim games) and use half the power in delivering that performance.
 

Edited January 31, 2023 by RAAF492SQNOz_Steve
added more detail

[voodoomom]

I run a ddr4 @ 3200mhz 14-14-14-34 / 4x8  f4-3200c 14-8GTZ on a crosshair hero vi x370 with 5950x

 

no i never run a benchmark in il2.

 

In regular gaming cod/Bf... is my setup great i have no probs but vr in il2  it runs not smoothly for me.

 

In 2017 i swap from intel to amd. the crosshair hero vi was my board i start with a 1800x then 3900x and now the 5950x.

 

If i play il2 in vr i see in fpsvr that the cpu ist the bottleneck

Gpu times absolut stable do drops / Cpu is with less planes 5 around and goes to 13 sometimes is a lot of traffic

Edited January 31, 2023 by voodoomom