Fighter combat

[greybeard_52]

I'm a sucker. In air combat (my favorite) my missions almost always end with me being shot down or with irreparable mechanical damage. I've been reading about tactics for almost thirty years and seeing videos where they repeat more or less the same thing:<<keep your energy high>> and teach them how to pounce on an almost defenseless enemy, who seems to be there just to get knocked down. When I try, the enemy (I always talk about AI, because I play exclusively in singleplayer) always knows everything about me and the exact moment I arrive at a shooting solution, in this game he always makes a soaring, in which I can't manage to follow him, not without stalling or crashing into him! I read of people who fall asleep shooting down crowds of enemy planes as easy this is (they say) and boring (as far as the AI is predictable). I struggle enormously to get a victory, and I always end up losing sight of my teammates, who always abandon me and never help or defend me.
On the other hand, Shaw himself, in his "Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering" (which made school), after many chapters dedicated to various situations (1 vs. 1, 1 vs. 2, 2 vs. 2) then says that they are in any case academic situations, and that in reality it is not known how many enemy planes there may be in the "arena", and therefore the only applicable tactic is the "gaggle tactic" where everyone does what they can, hoping that the comrades present assist him.
So I think all those lessons are (as they say in my country) "hot air".
To aggravate (my) situation is the fact that my joystick doesn't seem to work well with this simulator: many aircraft are unstable in their pitch axis and I can't stop them from wobbling just when I'm tracking a turning target and trying to aim it . I bought a new joystick, but it behaves exactly like the old one.
I've invested a decent amount of money in this game, but I can't get the enjoyment out of it that I want. I love realism and I love learning a bit of history about the objects of my passion by trying to fly them in a similar way to their real pilots. But I have doubts about the fidelity of their flight models when I see that the AI "cheats" (and this could be my impression) or fails to lead the aircraft from the runway to the parking after landing (and this is a objective fact). So I have to lean towards the arcade in game settings to get satisfaction? And (if yes) how much?

[DD_Arthur]

The a.i. has an ‘all seeing eye’.

It is aware of your presence from a long way off and reacts accordingly.

This is (one of) the big problems with the a.i. in this game; the reality of WW2 air combat was that most pilots were unaware they were being ‘hunted’ until the opposition opened fire on them.

It’s a big reason why many people prefer multiplayer where the a.i. element is absent.

The a.i. also has big problems taxiing on the ground in a realistic way too.

[ShamrockOneFive]

34 minutes ago, greybeard_52 said:

On the other hand, Shaw himself, in his "Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering" (which made school), after many chapters dedicated to various situations (1 vs. 1, 1 vs. 2, 2 vs. 2) then says that they are in any case academic situations, and that in reality it is not known how many enemy planes there may be in the "arena", and therefore the only applicable tactic is the "gaggle tactic" where everyone does what they can, hoping that the comrades present assist him.
So I think all those lessons are (as they say in my country) "hot air".

 

I'd say Shaw is accurate. Read any pilot memoir and they will describe how organized formations of aircraft quickly turn into absolute chaos and that the sky will fill with aircraft and then they would find themselves completely alone. Nobody in sight. This happens a lot in both single player and multiplayer IL-2.

 

35 minutes ago, greybeard_52 said:

To aggravate (my) situation is the fact that my joystick doesn't seem to work well with this simulator: many aircraft are unstable in their pitch axis and I can't stop them from wobbling just when I'm tracking a turning target and trying to aim it . I bought a new joystick, but it behaves exactly like the old one.
I've invested a decent amount of money in this game, but I can't get the enjoyment out of it that I want. I love realism and I love learning a bit of history about the objects of my passion by trying to fly them in a similar way to their real pilots. But I have doubts about the fidelity of their flight models when I see that the AI "cheats" (and this could be my impression) or fails to lead the aircraft from the runway to the parking after landing (and this is a objective fact). So I have to lean towards the arcade in game settings to get satisfaction? And (if yes) how much?

There's a lot to unpack here. If you have hardware issues then that is going to cause a lot of problems. What kind of joystick. Are there problems with its calibration? Does it have 'jitter' or are you just over controlling the airplane?

 

IL-2 does not have a perfect flight model but its amongst the best ever put together and compared to what we used to have on PC's of the past... this is up there. DCS, X-Plane, IL-2, all in the top tier of sim modeling relative to the past. The issue that you're having is not there.

 

The AI also does not cheat in IL-2. It is one of the few flight sims around where the AI flies with the same engine and flight model. This leads to other problems (notably performance) but when it comes to the actual flying, the AI is playing by the same rules that you are. The AI does have above average awareness but I've fought many a human pilot online and its tough to sneak up on them too.

 

I'd encourage you to share videos or track files so we can see what you're doing. I suspect that the "soaring" you're talking about is the AI pulling a tight lead turn, you trying to keep guns on target pulling an even tighter turn, and burning all of your energy at once. Refining your tactics might be necessary. Or maybe you might find more satisfaction flying bomber or attack sorties... not everyone who lives combat simulation is cut out for flying fighters. It's why I'm glad that the IL-2 series has offered us more than just fighters.

[busdriver]

My copy of Shaw’s book is a first edition with notes I wrote in the margins and sections I highlighted back in the Jurassic Era. At the time I was an IP (instructor pilot) teaching air-to-air maneuvering in a reconnaissance Phantom training squadron. When I got to the F-16 training squadron I loaned it to an IP who was a recent graduate of the USAF Fighter Weapons School at Nellis AFB. The only quibble I had with the book was how the Navy and Air Force define “aspect angle.” 
 

I too suck at 1-v-1 or 1-v-X in this game. My gun tracking of a bandit when viewed from the cockpit reveals I also experience tiny PIOs or “wobbles” as you described. For me it’s a limitation of having no actual g feedback. I’ve tried several different joysticks but suffer the same issue with each of them. I recognize that I simply suck as a 1GCCFP (one g comfy chair fighter pilot). 

Edited December 3, 2022 by busdriver

[ShamrockOneFive]

1 minute ago, busdriver said:

My copy of Shaw’s book is a first edition with notes I wrote in the margins and sections I highlighted back in the Jurassic Era. At the time I was an IP (instructor pilot) teaching air-to-air maneuvering in a reconnaissance Phantom training squadron. When I got to the F-16 training squadron I loaned it to an IP who was a recent graduate of the USAF Fighter Weapons School at Nellis AFB. The only quibble I had with the book was how the Navy and Air Force define “aspect angle.” 
 

I too suck at 1-v-1 or 1-v-X in this game. My gun tracking of a bandit when viewed from the cockpit reveals I also experience tiny PIOs or “wobbles” as you described. For me it’s a limitation of having no actual g feedback. I’ve tried several different joysticks but suffer the same issue with each of them. I recognize that I simply suck as a 1GCCFP (one g comfy chair fighter pilot). 

 

You've got many a good kill online   And been there to offer words of encouragement when I've once again caught a flak shell in my Spitfire!

[Zooropa_Fly]

Confession : Despite being half decent in ww1, I suck at ww2 dogging n'all.

Against almost all VP's I lose - even with a better plane. I can never even seem to out-run them.. in a faster plane.

Againts the Bots - you can't sneak up on them (major game fail imo), and they usually turn quick enough to evade my deflection shots. So I end up chasing them in a never ending flat turn, until I slap myself and break off.

But I've never really put the time in (proper learning and practice) to rectify this.

 

My solution was to do something else..

Albeit I play online most of the time, I spend a lot of time in a 110 (the big sexy beast) - bombing targets and taking out AAA.

There are clear objectives, and working with others one can contribute to ultimate Victory !

Lately I've been flying the 190 - usually trying to clear AAA ahead of the bombers.

I'd recommend "I Fly Central's" videos on YT in case you ain't seen them - some great tactical presentations.

 

So, is being a fighter pilot your only interest ?

 

Settings : I'd keep them as real as possible, but don't be afraid to use icons if you want.

The in-game ones are horrific, but if you're playing offline there's a great icons mod (a few pages down the mods section last time I checked).

You can turn them on / off at will, so can be used selectively once activated.

 

Generally, stick to one plane for a while and learn it's strenghts and weaknesses relative to what's it's likely to be facing.

Check tutorials and develope a 'plan', try and stick to it. Be clear how you will enter an engagement and how you will exit it. Your entry should be from a position of advantage.

Be patient - sometimes you have to run away and come back again.

 

Stick in there and good luck,

 

S!

17 minutes ago, busdriver said:

teaching air-to-air maneuvering in a reconnaissance Phantom training squadron. When I got to the F-16 training squadron

 

17 minutes ago, busdriver said:

I recognize that I simply suck as a 1GCCFP

 

This makes me feel so much better .

Although I think you might be being a little 'coy' with the second quote !

 

S!

[busdriver]

@Zooropa_Fly, no I really, really suck as a 1GCCFP, my air-to-air gunnery “blows dead goats” as we used to say in my squadron. Like you I prefer air-to-ground flying, I don’t suffer PIOs when “BFMing” a ground target. ?

[greybeard_52]

3 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

I'd say Shaw is accurate.

I'm not saying otherwise. But with this he himself proves that all tactics are "hot air".

3 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

What kind of joystick.

Thrustmaster Hotas X

3 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Are there problems with its calibration?

Not that I know.

 

3 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Does it have 'jitter' or are you just over controlling the airplane?

Jitter. It vibrates only in the 0 to -1 range of the Y axis (the one used to pull up).

 

3 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

I'd encourage you to share videos or track files so we can see what you're doing.

I'm sorry. I've tried for a long time now, changing the AI at all levels, from Novice to Ace, but it seems that in Quick Mission it doesn't have that behavior (soaring) that I see in careers: evasive maneuvers are normal and I always manage to knock down my target without great difficulty.

 

3 hours ago, busdriver said:

I too suck at 1-v-1 or 1-v-X in this game.

Thank you! Now I feel in good company!?

 

3 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

My solution was to do something else..

You are right, but "ground pounding" poses other problems for me, such as my inability to dive bomb together with the AI, and the omnipresence of obstacles (trees, buildings) that cover the targets.

 

3 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

great icons mod

Got it! Thanks!

3 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

Generally, stick to one plane for a while and learn it's strenghts and weaknesses relative to what's it's likely to be facing.

Check tutorials and develope a 'plan', try and stick to it. Be clear how you will enter an engagement and how you will exit it. Your entry should be from a position of advantage.

Be patient - sometimes you have to run away and come back again.

 

Stick in there and good luck

Many thanks! Holy words! I'd like to try all the fighter planes (including the collectors I paid for separately) out of curiosity and historical knowledge, but you're right: I have to focus on my favorite (or at least one at a time).

[Varibraun]

7 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

To aggravate (my) situation is the fact that my joystick doesn't seem to work well with this simulator: many aircraft are unstable in their pitch axis and I can't stop them from wobbling just when I'm tracking a turning target and trying to aim it . I bought a new joystick, but it behaves exactly like the old one.

 

Hi Greybeard - regarding your joystick issues, see if either or both of these help with the stability:

 

1.  Try adjusting the "Joystick Noise Filter" under the "Input Devices" menu.

2.  Increase the center "dead zone" for your pitch in the keymapping.

 

Going further, if your desired simming budget and inclination/interest allow it, the more expensive joysticks (Virpil/VKB) with extensions do make these aircraft perform more realistically because the control has a longer pull making it more precise .  Mine has been a 10 year hardware/hotas upward cost journey, but I am now a much better sim pilot now than I was for all of the years when I used a Logitech 3D (and I don't think my "skill" has improved with age).  I justify it as my only real hobby and all of the items I list below are cheaper than golf.

 

FWIW - If you decide to invest further in hardware, I would rate the following hardware expenses that improve flying in this order of benefit:

 

1.  Headtracking - (situational awareness).

2.  Precise Joystick w/extension - (better control).

3.  Precise rudder pedals (MFG/VKB/Virpil) - (takes a few flights to get used to them, but more realistic than stick twist and helps with aerial and ground aim).

4.  Simshaker with a Buttkicker (ideally one one the seat and one on the controls) - This will add some actual "feel" to the aircraft - you will know when a stall is coming.

5.  VR (must have a good CPU/GPU system to run it, but being "inside" the cockpit helps with awareness and gunnery).

Edited December 3, 2022 by Varibraun

[ShamrockOneFive]

1 hour ago, greybeard_52 said:

I'm sorry. I've tried for a long time now, changing the AI at all levels, from Novice to Ace, but it seems that in Quick Mission it doesn't have that behavior (soaring) that I see in careers: evasive maneuvers are normal and I always manage to knock down my target without great difficulty.

I think we need to SEE what you're doing. Share a track file or a video of what's going on so that we can try and help you out. Alternatively share the scenario that you're using (airplanes, distances, setup, etc.) in the QMB and I'll fly it myself and share it with you.

 

Can you also describe what soaring means in a bit more detail. It's more of a term that I'd associate with a bird or a glider

[Charon]

9 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

To aggravate (my) situation is the fact that my joystick doesn't seem to work well with this simulator: many aircraft are unstable in their pitch axis and I can't stop them from wobbling just when I'm tracking a turning target and trying to aim it . I bought a new joystick, but it behaves exactly like the old one.

You might need to adjust your pitch sensitivity settings a bit. Desktop sticks (i.e., most sticks) generally benefit from a bit of nonlinearity. You want to reduce the effect of movements near the center (so you can make fine adjustments), and it's okay to give up some precision at high stick deflections to do that.

 

You don't mention trim, but also make sure that you've got it bound somewhere accessible and are using it effectively. Gunnery is much harder if you're needing to apply large inputs to maintain level flight.

 

Quote

So I have to lean towards the arcade in game settings to get satisfaction? And (if yes) how much?

 

This is actually a really interesting question, I think. Some of the game settings are there just to make it 'arcade', but some are there to compensate for lack of hardware. Auto rudder if you lack pedals, for instance, or auto engine management and radiators if you don't have a full HOTAS, or padlock/object markers if you don't have VR/headtracking, or enhanced aircraft visibility/object markers if your vision is poor.

 

There are also some settings that are useful as training aids, even if you don't plan to use them permanently. I swear by aim-assist when learning deflection shooting. Don't just aim at the marker, but instead aim normally and take note of how far off you are. Alternate between on and off while you learn. Then turn it off once you've learned to shoot. Learning deflection shooting is very hard without this aid.

 

Quote

When I try, the enemy (I always talk about AI, because I play exclusively in singleplayer) ... I always end up losing sight of my teammates, who always abandon me and never help or defend me.

The lack of communication or cooperation from the AI is IMO definitely the worst part of the singleplayer experience, and PvP multiplayer is intimidating to get into.

 

Have you ever considered joining a PvE co-op group? You get the more mission-focused experience of single-player, while getting wingmen who can actually call out contacts and cover you.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Charon

[Dragon1-1]

AI needs improvement, particularly wingmates. That said, you can sneak up on AI - as long as it's chasing another aircraft. Flying high (but not too high) and building an energy surplus is important, especially in something like the Yak. When you spot the enemy at a distance, it's worth climbing a bit, maintaining speed, and trying to get an altitude advantage, however slight. 

 

When it comes to winning a turning fight, you need to figure out a few things. First is energy management. Turning a WWII aircraft isn't straightforward, and learning how to do a sustained turn is a critical combat skill. You need to only pull enough to maintain your speed, and resist the temptation to pull the enemy into your gunsight at the first opportunity. Be patient, if you went in with an energy surplus or a more powerful engine, the enemy will have to stop turning eventually and ease off, at which point you'll gain angles. The next step is actually hitting the target. My advice is: forget about deflection shooting at the start. Take something with centerline guns, slot in behind the bandit, get close, and fire. The AI is stupidly good with deflection shooting, but the real WWII pilots usually weren't capable of it. For anyone who isn't an AI, deflection shooting will only work from very low angles against a maneuvering target. Line up a shot, fire a short burst, see where it lands, correct, shoot again, and so on. Might take a lot of tries, but you'll see impacts eventually. 

 

As for the stick, unfortunately the real good ones are expensive. Some nonlinearity will help. However, practice in Instant Action is the best solution to your woes. This will teach you to "feel out" deflection shooting, optical ranging and energy management. Ultimately, in WWII, a lot of things were done by feel. You can only afford short glances at instruments, so most things will be done by simply having seen enough aircraft in your gunsight that you know whether you'd hit that particular one or not. Forget trying to range with the reticle, it's a great reference, but it's primary use is to show you where your guns are pointing. Even with the adjustable range and wingspan, it's primary use is to tell you whether you're above or below convergence (a big deal since most aircraft with those also have wing guns).

[greybeard_52]

15 hours ago, Varibraun said:

1.  Try adjusting the "Joystick Noise Filter" under the "Input Devices" menu.

2.  Increase the center "dead zone" for your pitch in the keymapping.

I'm sorry. I already tried that but it doesn't work for me: the filter makes the aircraft sluggish and the dead zone makes the response delay worse.

 

15 hours ago, Varibraun said:

joysticks (Virpil/VKB) with extensions

 I understand what you mean. I had a look at the site and I think it's exactly the set I need, at least the joystick with the extension attached to the desk plus the throttle. Unfortunately at the moment (with the mad NATO - Russia war, which is isolating Russia and destroying Europe) I cannot afford it. Still it's a great tip and I would like you to list me a basic set just in case I win the lottery!? Thanks for everything!

 

15 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

Share a track file

I just made a track (the first one I make in this game). I am attaching it together with the screen shots of the related conditions. Thank you!

 

Fighter_Combat.zip

 

 

 

15 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

describe what soaring means in a bit more detail.

It's pretty much like in the attached video.

 

12 hours ago, Charon said:

You might need to adjust your pitch sensitivity settings a bit.

All my sensitivities are set to 100%.

 

12 hours ago, Charon said:

You don't mention trim

This would require a separate discussion; there are planes like the Bf 109 which for me are better if you don't touch the default trim, others which require constant adjustments, but which for this very reason end up never having the right trim!

 

12 hours ago, Charon said:

Some of the game settings are there just to make it 'arcade', but some are there to compensate for lack of hardware.

You hit the mark! I have currently reverted to "Normal" as a difficulty level for this very reason.

 

12 hours ago, Charon said:

The lack of communication or cooperation from the AI is IMO definitely the worst part of the singleplayer experience,

I think this game suffers a lot from being derived from a WW1 simulator.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by greybeard_52

[firdimigdi]

17 minutes ago, greybeard_52 said:

This would require a separate discussion; there are planes like the Bf 109 which for me are better if you don't touch the default trim, others which require constant adjustments, but which for this very reason end up never having the right trim!

 

AFAIK there is not a single plane that does not require trimming as its airspeed changes.

[Zooropa_Fly]

Just watched the uploaded track grey beard.

 

Looks ok to me !

 

S!

 

[Dragon1-1]

2 hours ago, firdimigdi said:

 

AFAIK there is not a single plane that does not require trimming as its airspeed changes.

It's more that some aircraft don't let you trim. The 109 is among them, if you're not flying at the exact speed it's trimmed for, there'll be sideslip and there'll be a pitch moment. Pitch can be trimmed out, sideslip requires pedal input and aileron to counter the resulting roll. I prefer aircraft with all the trimmers, but a lot of them are missing at least one (usually aileron).

[ShamrockOneFive]

5 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

I just made a track (the first one I make in this game). I am attaching it together with the screen shots of the related conditions. Thank you!

Alright. I had a look at the video. You won the fight with the MiG-3 so ... that's good!

 

Here's a few things you might want to think about:

 

At 0:29 you initiate a left turn in pursuit of the MiG-3. This is an attempt to setup lead pursuit turn but you burn an awful lot of energy doing it. A lag pursuit would put you in a similar shooting position about 10 seconds later but with more energy. The Bf109 starting to buffet around 0:34 is an indication of just how hard you're pulling. It works out for you in this instance but its not the best method.

 

Around 0:55 you start firing at the MiG. I'd have to close look at what your hand does when you start pulling the trigger as the Bf109 begins to oscillate. You're probably tensing/clenching your muscles which is leading to poorer overall control and spraying a lot of bullets all over the place. Gentle, precise, deliberate control is required here and some practice of that mind/body connection in a more controlled QMB environment might help. Try just shooting at a crossroad on the ground or even just into space and pay attention to what you're doing from a muscle/posture perspective.

 

For a little while I started doing brief exhale before opening fire as a way to calm everything down and focus.

 

5 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

It's pretty much like in the attached video.

 

That's just a steep departure but I think the thing you're attempting to describe is a zoom climb. It didn't happen in the track you posted but if you've got another one I'd be happy to have a look at that.

 

Hope this all helps. Thanks for posting the track!

Edited December 4, 2022 by ShamrockOneFive

[Charon]

6 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

 I understand what you mean. I had a look at the site and I think it's exactly the set I need, at least the joystick with the extension attached to the desk plus the throttle. Unfortunately at the moment (with the mad NATO - Russia war, which is isolating Russia and destroying Europe) I cannot afford it. Still it's a great tip and I would like you to list me a basic set just in case I win the lottery!? Thanks for everything!

Just to clarify, the advantage offered by an extended stick is very small, and it's one of the least bang/buck upgrades I've made to my setup. If you've already played around with sensitivity to your satisfaction, the problem is probably something else.

[Varibraun]

7 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

I already tried that but it doesn't work for me: the filter makes the aircraft sluggish and the dead zone makes the response delay worse.

 

43 minutes ago, Charon said:

If you've already played around with sensitivity to your satisfaction, the problem is probably something else.

 

On 12/3/2022 at 7:13 AM, greybeard_52 said:

I can't stop them from wobbling just when I'm tracking a turning target and trying to aim it

 

Just watched the replay a few times - if the main issue that is bothering you is the "wobble" that begins around 00:55, I think you can also see that in the F2 external view watching your elevator input (too bad we can't see the actual stick in replays).  This is one place that I both agree and disagree with @Charon, because I think there is a joystick issue involved with some "short stick" sensitivity induced over-correction very evident with the elevators @ 00:57 and that @ShamrockOneFive is correct that it occurs in part with the trigger pull.

 

From my own flying with various joysticks, and this is where my experience is different from Charon (who probably has more steady hands), I found that a joystick extension helped me with over correction because a minor move/jerk on a short joystick is magnified compared to a longer pull with an extension.  So, if you sensitivity is already set to 100%, (with maybe a 4% deadzone), I don't know that there is much more you can do right now with a TM X other than practice what Shamrock advises above since things look pretty smooth until you are trying to land rounds.

 

8 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

I would like you to list me a basic set just in case I win the lottery!? Thanks for everything!

 

Certainly, and if you get to that point there is some great advice over in the hardware section.  I went the Virpil Mongoos route, but plenty of folks over there have had really good experience with the VKB Gunfighter setup.  So shout out over there and you will get plenty of guidance. 

 

[Charon]

22 minutes ago, Varibraun said:

This is one place that I both agree and disagree with @Charon, because I think there is a joystick issue involved with some "short stick" sensitivity induced over-correction very evident with the elevators @ 00:57 and that @ShamrockOneFive is correct that it occurs in part with the trigger pull.

 

From my own flying with various joysticks, and this is where my experience is different from Charon (who probably has more steady hands), I found that a joystick extension helped me with over correction because a minor move/jerk on a short joystick is magnified compared to a longer pull with an extension.  So, if you sensitivity is already set to 100%, (with maybe a 4% deadzone), I don't know that there is much more you can do right now with a TM X other than practice what Shamrock advises above since things look pretty smooth until you are trying to land rounds.

A useful diagnostic might be to temporarily bind your guns to a button on your throttle, Nakajima style. If your gunnery improves, you're likely disrupting the shot with your trigger pull.

[greybeard_52]

Thank you all gentlemen! Truly a competent analysis and a lot of promising advice! I have to work on it.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

Thought I'd chime in to give some additional advice

 

On 12/4/2022 at 10:25 AM, greybeard_52 said:

All my sensitivities are set to 100%.

Try to reduce this. This might sound counter-intuitive, but your mention of stalling and "wobbling" makes me suspect you might actually be over-compensating a bit, which may be solved by reducing the sensitivity. If it's possible for your joystick, adjust the response curves.

  

On 12/4/2022 at 10:25 AM, greybeard_52 said:

This would require a separate discussion; there are planes like the Bf 109 which for me are better if you don't touch the default trim, others which require constant adjustments, but which for this very reason end up never having the right trim!

No, it's not, it's very important for this discussion. Here too, the symptoms you mention seem to point towards some sort of reduced fine control on your part. In addition to the joystick settings, as mentioned above, one possible cause is a slightly offset trim.

 

If your trim is off, you need to constantly apply pressure to the stick to keep the plane level. Because of how the human muscle system works, this constant pressure results in less fine control over any additional pressure. Think about it like this: try to lift up a pencil and hold it exactly 1mm above the table surface. Easy, isn't it? Now do the same thing with something heavy, a filled soda bottle or something. You'll notice that it's much harder. The soda bottle will likely wobble a bit and it might even hit the table a couple of times.

 

The same thing goes for joysticks. With an improperly trimmed aircraft, your muscles will "wobble" a bit, transferring this wobble to the stick and thence to the aircraft. When on the edge of a stall, this wobble might be just enough to lose control.

 

Personally, I don't even fly with my hands unless I have to pull really hard. As much as possible, I let my hand lie on the handrest and then control the stick using just my fingertips. As opposed to the hand/wrist/arm muscles which are basically made for "brute force" movement, the human fingers are precision instruments and ideal for controlling a joystick. Of course, flying with your fingertips is only possible if your aircraft is trimmed properly.

 

EDIT: almost forgot - for the same reason, I'd advise *against* using a joystick deadzone, unless your joystick has some jitter. As long as your joystick is working properly, a deadzone will only result in having to pull harder, in turn resulting in less precise control.

Edited December 5, 2022 by AEthelraedUnraed

[[CPT]Crunch]

Only a quality stick with an extension mounted between the knees will give you the effects you seek, try one and you'll never go back.

[Oyster_KAI]

6 years ago I used to set the pitch axis sensitivity to 100% for this game,
later, 60~70% was used most often, but after I replaced the Y-axis spring with a slightly harder one, I set it to 0%,
and I feel that there is no better flying feeling than this one, and it is applicable to every aircraft in WWII.
This is the magic place of IL-2 GB (Clod is also perfectly the same), all controls are simple to set and OK.?

In DCS WWII planes, unstudied joystick sensitivity settings will cause big discomfort.
It usually takes 2~3 days of test flight to find a set of complicated settings, and then feel that this setting is no problem,
even more the trouble is you have to set very different settings for each plane.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Oyster_KAI

[PatrickAWlson]

On 12/3/2022 at 7:47 AM, DD_Arthur said:

The a.i. has an ‘all seeing eye’.

It is aware of your presence from a long way off and reacts accordingly.

This is (one of) the big problems with the a.i. in this game; the reality of WW2 air combat was that most pilots were unaware they were being ‘hunted’ until the opposition opened fire on them.

It’s a big reason why many people prefer multiplayer where the a.i. element is absent.

The a.i. also has big problems taxiing on the ground in a realistic way too.

 

Not sure if this is still true, but I stumbled on something interesting a long time ago.  The AI reacts when you are within 600 meters.  You can fire away at 601 meters and the AI will take no evasive action.  Get to 599 meters and it will start to defend itself.  

 

I imagine if the WP priority is low (i.e. attack at will) then this will not be true and the AI will be aggressive from much further out.  Take it with observation the appropriate grains of salt.

 

In general, I completely agree with you.  I would love to be able to bounce the AI.  If they implemented something that matched AI awareness to AI skill level it would be a very good thing.

[[TWB]80hd]

You can change your life today... connect multiplayer/dogfight, hit up Berloga, and just go get destroyed over and over... you have to ID planes there, but bounce back and forth and try both sides... forget about winning, just get in and try to stay alive as long as you can... it's super high action, so your mean-time to learning is greatly reduced compared to flying around between fights... and when you DO hit players, your damage will actually affect their ability to fly their planes, etc.

 

Playing with and against people is just an entirely different world, and once you experience it you're unlikely to go back.

 

 

[busdriver]

On 12/5/2022 at 6:35 AM, AEthelraedUnraed said:

If your trim is off, you need to constantly apply pressure to the stick to keep the plane level. Because of how the human muscle system works, this constant pressure results in less fine control over any additional pressure.

 

I suppose I'm going to regret responding, I agree with your first sentence, and the overall intent to help the OP.

 

IRL when you trim an airplane for the airspeed and pitch condition (pitch and power equal performance) you want/need, you trim the pressure off stick or yoke. If I'm cruising around at 400 km/h in level flight I expect that the stick/yoke will be close to neutral. The yoke or stick will remain neutral or displaced fore/aft of center if you take your hand off. If I trim for my approach speed in level flight, the stick/yoke will be noticeably aft of neutral, and if I let go, the stick/yoke will stay aft of neutral.  Table top PC flight simulator HOTAS replicate the 1 g unaccelerated level cruise flight very nicely. Not nearly as well in slow flight in level flight, a HOTAS joystick will re-center if I take my hand off.

 

IRL the stick remains displaced in the direction you trim because the stick and the horizontal stab (some airplanes) or elevator (most airplanes) are directly connected. Not so much in a table top flight simulator. The HOTAS joystick always, always, always wants to spring back to center/neutral regardless of trim input. At full deflection the HOTAS joystick spring tension makes no distinction regarding g load. 

 

So your method of resting your hand on the HOTAS base and using your fingertips works great for nominal cruise flight. Clearly that method breaks down WRT maneuvering. We agree up to this point.

 

I'm not against trimming in a flight simulator. I highly recommend it as a general principal. I especially recommend some nose down trim for dropping bombs or strafing because I'm trying to fly "a wire" (a straight line).  I suppose my takeaway is that your suggestion to trim for fingertip control for stable level flight is dubious advice WRT dynamic maneuvering air combat. IRL many/most fighter pilots I flew with routinely applied some nose down trim for BFM/DACT (I always did). I don't recommend that in this game because joystick tension is not related to g load. 

 

Many/most 1GCCFPs adapt to solve the gun tracking problem. Some like me do not adapt. Trim is not the problem for me, and I suspect for the OP either.

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by busdriver

[RyanR]

 

I got Shaw's book 20 years ago. A great reference, but not applicable to flight sims in single player or multiplayer, unless you've got a real good set of disciplined human squad mates. 

 

I think trimming your pitch axis is super important. It needs to be in the right ballpark so that the spring tension in the stick is giving some feedback that's similar enough to what the control surfaces would give you. When the F-16 hit the market in the 1970's, pilots really criticized the lack of feedback in the fly-by-wire system. So, they added springs. 

 

One of the things that really helped me long ago in the previous IL-2 (1946) was to do a weird practice in the quick missions. Get a bunch of large slow bombers (I used the TB-3 back then), and then slash at them from every way. The two WWI bombers we have here work OK, they're a little *too* slow. The takeaways from this are helpful. Since they're slow targets, you're doing lots of reversals (preferably in the vertical), you're learning how to track a target around the cockpit, you're finding the edges of the aircraft's envelope, and there's a lot of stick and rudder coordination that will get baked into your muscle memory. Finally, you're doing lots of of high deflection shooting, and learning how to set those passes up. This gets you the basic mechanics that you can then apply in fighter vs fighter.

 

Other than that, I feel like the joystick should get hotter and hotter to the touch in sustained flat turns. Some planes will cheerfully out turn other types above a certain speed, once below that the tables turn and you're disadvantaged and you've burned all your energy.

 

Of course, the AI does some funky things. Really funky things. That deserves its own thread.

 

-Ryan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[busdriver]

14 minutes ago, RyanR said:

I got Shaw's book 20 years ago. A great reference, but not applicable to flight sims in single player or multiplayer,

 

You and I have significantly different opinions. Turning room is applicable, maneuverability WRT corner velocity applies, in plane and out of plane maneuvering applies, you see where I'm going with this. If you meant WRT formation tactics, then I totally agree. MP formation is simply "same day, same way" and that's okay, it's entertainment not a professional skill.

 

15 minutes ago, RyanR said:

When the F-16 hit the market in the 1970's, pilots really criticized the lack of feedback in the fly-by-wire system. So, they added springs. 

 

Not to put too fine of a point on this, the complaint was that the stick didn't MOVE at all, that was the lack of feedback. The solution was to give the stick a small range of motion/pivot, it was a non-event making the transition from the "full throw" stick in the Phantom to the sidestick in the Viper.

[firdimigdi]

3 hours ago, busdriver said:

The yoke or stick will remain neutral or displaced fore/aft of center if you take your hand off. If I trim for my approach speed in level flight, the stick/yoke will be noticeably aft of neutral, and if I let go, the stick/yoke will stay aft of neutral

 

Funny thing is that the first analog joystick I ever used had mechanical trim that resulted in that happening which baffled young me at the time. In hindsight I'm surprised that feature hasn't resurfaced (with added marketing and pricetag to boot).

[RyanR]

8 hours ago, busdriver said:

You and I have significantly different opinions. Turning room is applicable, maneuverability WRT corner velocity applies, in plane and out of plane maneuvering applies, you see where I'm going with this. If you meant WRT formation tactics, then I totally agree. MP formation is simply "same day, same way" and that's okay, it's entertainment not a professional skill.

 

 

We're on the same page. I meant mostly in regards to formation tactics. Anything to do with ACM/BFM, corner velocity, absolutely applies.

 

-Ryan

 

 

[greybeard_52]

Thanks again, gentlemen, for the additional advice.
You may be pleased to know that I have applied with some success your suggestions above, at least in terms of focusing on a single aircraft at a time and making up for the lack of sophisticated peripherals with simpler setups. I've also lately introduced a 50% filtering on joystick inputs, it seems to have beneficial effects (less wobbling without the plane getting too sluggish); but i did only one mission and i have to try again.
I see that you insist a lot on trimming and I would like to clarify my point of view: I agree that it is important (I learned myself that already in IL-2 1946 it could gain 20 km/h in horizontal speed and visibly increase the climb), but I believe that even there there is a subjective compromise between hardware and personal skills and obtainable benefits; e.g. if I don't have an axis (i.e. wheel) to continuously adjust elevator trim, and have to do it with buttons instead, it is likely that the gain gained will be lost in terms of time required to adjust and distracted from actual piloting. However, I would like to point out that, following your suggestion, I'm looking for a better compromise at least on the use of elevator trim, with good results.
As for Shaw, again I would like to say that I agree that his principles are sound, while I object to academic tactics; however, it will be good to learn them, but war is chaos and one cannot expect to apply them to the letter, very often success is the result of luck, instinct, talent and a lot of practice.

[greybeard_52]

On 12/5/2022 at 5:08 PM, Oyster_KAI said:

6 years ago I used to set the pitch axis sensitivity to 100% for this game,
later, 60~70% was used most often, but after I replaced the Y-axis spring with a slightly harder one, I set it to 0%,
and I feel that there is no better flying feeling than this one, and it is applicable to every aircraft in WWII.

I'm curious: why should the stiffness of the joystick spring facilitate the linearity of the commands?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I also have different springs strength on both axis, stronger y for elevator pitch and weaker x for ailerons roll. Never reduce sensitivity in the beginning of travel because in the end of the curve there will be fast change and adding deadzone would limit the maximum defection and raiding of the buffet (close to stall) impossible. One time which i would consider changing elevator deflection would be the Fokker Dr.1 because without Force Feedback joy the plane would constantly nose up and you need push elevator to fly level. This extensive behavior of Dr.1 was not correct as An.Petrovich admitted when more videos of flying dr.1s show up in the internet.  Real Dr.1 still had tendency to nose up but not that much. He considered to fix it and meybe plug it with old ROF FM before December 2014 patch but opportunity never came up.  Now all FC plans are based on FMs before patch excluded Dr.1 . Dr.1 and Spad 13 were first published and Spad was not affected by December patch , later they decided to important old FMs not last from Rise of Flight.

Edited December 7, 2022 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Dragon1-1]

8 hours ago, RyanR said:

We're on the same page. I meant mostly in regards to formation tactics.

It should be noted that formation tactics Shaw describes seem to all be based around poorly trained wingmen of WWI and WWII, particularly welded wing formations, which he doesn't recommend. Moreover, they work only if the enemy didn't read the same book, and doesn't try the same thing. An average simmer has more training time than a typical pilot had back in those days. As such, trying to use most of multi-ship tactics there doesn't work too well, because if both sides try that, you end up right where you started.

 

I think the loose deuce is the only multi-ship tactic from Shaw that's really relevant today. Double attack could have some use up to Vietnam, but even Shaw admits it doesn't work in an all-aspect threat environment, and I always wondered "what's to stop the bandits' free fighter from tying up your own free fighter in their own dogfight?". The book does have some pretty good hints at how to make the most of your numerical superiority, if you have it, but for engagements on even ground the best parts are on how to win the inevitably ensuing dogfight.

[easterling77]

On 12/5/2022 at 6:23 PM, [TWB]80hd said:

You can change your life today... connect multiplayer/dogfight, hit up Berloga, and just go get destroyed over and over... you have to ID planes there, but bounce back and forth and try both sides... forget about winning, just get in and try to stay alive as long as you can... it's super high action, so your mean-time to learning is greatly reduced compared to flying around between fights... and when you DO hit players, your damage will actually affect their ability to fly their planes, etc.

 

Playing with and against people is just an entirely different world, and once you experience it you're unlikely to go back.

 

 

this happened to me two weeks ago?after almost 3 years of sp only

sneaking up on an almighty Tempest in my A6 at treetop level gave me really high tension...a mixture of fear ("don't mess this up!")and excitement ("I'll get him!")

 

...but I'll stay on both sides for the scripted campaigns 

Edited December 7, 2022 by easterling77

[354thFG_Drewm3i-VR]

There is so much that goes into being good at this it is hard to even know where to start...first off, you need a good PC that doesn't stutter much. Then you need head tracking or VR. Then you need a GOOD stick and rudder pedals at a minimum or else you will not be able to precisely control your plane. After that you can get into fine tuning control bindings and sensitivity curves. The you need to practice, practice, practice with a few planes ONLY and use the proper tactics for each plane.

[ShamrockOneFive]

4 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

I see that you insist a lot on trimming and I would like to clarify my point of view: I agree that it is important (I learned myself that already in IL-2 1946 it could gain 20 km/h in horizontal speed and visibly increase the climb), but I believe that even there there is a subjective compromise between hardware and personal skills and obtainable benefits; e.g. if I don't have an axis (i.e. wheel) to continuously adjust elevator trim, and have to do it with buttons instead, it is likely that the gain gained will be lost in terms of time required to adjust and distracted from actual piloting. However, I would like to point out that, following your suggestion, I'm looking for a better compromise at least on the use of elevator trim, with good results.

IMHO, a wheel is not necessary. I've got it bound to one of the hat switches on my joystick ala most modern jet fighters. It works well.

 

I also trim the elevator/stabilizer frequently in all airplanes. Occasionally during combat but definitely in preparation for it.

[busdriver]

4 hours ago, greybeard_52 said:

As for Shaw, again I would like to say that I agree that his principles are sound, while I object to academic tactics; however, it will be good to learn them, but war is chaos and one cannot expect to apply them to the letter, very often success is the result of luck, instinct, talent and a lot of practice.

 

LOL ?  Flexibility is the key to air power. You fight like you train. 

 

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It should be noted that formation tactics Shaw describes seem to all be based around poorly trained wingmen of WWI and WWII, particularly welded wing formations, which he doesn't recommend.

 

If you read Blesse's "No Guts No Glory" (F-86 era) circulated by the Fighter Weapons School you'll find that it was USAF doctrine. USAF F-4 air-to-air squadrons were still flying welded wing over NVN up to the end. It remained part of the RTU Phase Manual (Contact, Formation, Air-to-Ground, Air-to-Air). Point being it wasn't just for poorly trained wingmen, it was just crummy orthodoxy in an organization that didn't consider BFM skills important IMO. The USN was much smarter. I point you in the direction of Marshall Michel's Clashes...

 

 

and Robert Wilcox' Scream of Eagles

 

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I think the loose deuce is the only multi-ship tactic from Shaw that's really relevant today.

 

If you mean IRL, current sensors and weapons have negated that as well. Wingmen flying with 5 NM lateral separation, no visual mutual support, if the bandit gets to the merge you consider that you f*cked up. It's a whole different world that what I experienced.

 

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I always wondered "what's to stop the bandits' free fighter from tying up your own free fighter in their own dogfight?".

 

Up until the early 80s, the VVS genuinely had no clue. They didn't know what a free fighter was. It wasn't part of their doctrine. They were just beginning to practice ACM, baby steps (the initial reaction to a threat). It was eye opening. In 1982 I was in a room (in Berlin) with F-15 guys while watching the radar track of Soviet MiG-23 Floggers practicing 2-v-1 ACM over the DDR. The Eagle guys were scoffing, "F*ck, I'd shoot the left hand guy here (x miles prior to the merge), then shoot the right hand guy here (closer to the merge)...these guys suck!" It was funny.

 

But to your question, I saw it happen a lot. Your 2-v-2 DACT setup turns into two 1-v-1 knife fights in a phone booth. And you revert to all that 1-v-1 BFM training you did. So I have to chuckle when the OP posts that Shaw gets his seal of approval. 

[Robli]

21 hours ago, RyanR said:

I got Shaw's book 20 years ago. A great reference, but not applicable to flight sims in single player or multiplayer

 

I think it is very applicable in multiplayer, especially the 2-vs-1 and 2-vs-2 part. If you have a wingman that has basic knowledge of these tactics, you find lot's of lone wolves and "untrained pairs" online that are easy pray for you. It is also helpful to understand these things, even if you fly alone, so you can recognize when you are being bracketed etc and disengage instead of getting shot down. 

 

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It should be noted that formation tactics Shaw describes seem to all be based around poorly trained wingmen of WWI and WWII, particularly welded wing formations, which he doesn't recommend. Moreover, they work only if the enemy didn't read the same book, and doesn't try the same thing.

 

I disagree. There are lots of players online that have probably not read the book or are eager to get their kills, get tunnel vision and end up being shot down with very basic 2-vs-1 or 2-vs-2 maneouvers.