Virpil - new Metal Grip, new CM3 Base, and more

[dburne]

https://forum.virpil.com/index.php?/topic/12609-introducing-the-vpc-constellation-alpha-prime-mongoost-50cm3-flightstick-base/

[Jaws2002]

I think this is first time I see RGB on the grip area of a joystick. 

 

Everything else looks good, but that.....

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Jaws2002

[JG27*PapaFly]

I've been using the alpha grip since it's release and I really like it. It only has RGB at the top, which i find useful. I've set it up to switch to another color when I have autotrim on. My only criticism is its weight (250 g). The more weight you add on top of your base+grip combo, the more you have to actively suppress oscillations. I expect this to become more of an issue with the new grip, which apparently adds another 100 g. At that weight class, they really should implement a damping system base-side IMO.

[Sokol1]

8 hours ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

At that weight class, they really should implement a damping system base-side IMO.

 

Done, T-50CM3 base with adjustable "clutch damper": 

 

 

Notice in the video @1:47 how the grip keep position "hands off", with the damper action of the "clutch".

 

https://youtu.be/BIFEEdGJ8ps?t=107

 

[Youtch]

Anyone knows if there is some update of cm3 throttle in virpil plans?

 

I am among these people who have been waiting for a year for the VKB new throttle with electronic adjustable detents, but it is still nowhere on the horizon.

[dburne]

1 hour ago, Youtch said:

Anyone knows if there is some update of cm3 throttle in virpil plans?

 

I am among these people who have been waiting for a year for the VKB new throttle with electronic adjustable detents, but it is still nowhere on the horizon.

 

CM3 is a great throttle, love mine.

[AngleOff66]

That looks very cool(glad the LED can be shut off) though I have heard that Virpil are good for people with large size hands?

 

Not sure how they would would for some like me with small to medium sized hands.

 

I wonder if sizing guides could be thing?

[dburne]

1 hour ago, AngleOff66 said:

That looks very cool(glad the LED can be shut off) though I have heard that Virpil are good for people with large size hands?

 

Not sure how they would would for some like me with small to medium sized hands.

 

I wonder if sizing guides could be thing?

 

I think the Virpil Alpha grips are probably a little better for smaller hands than the VKB MCG and Ultra grips. I have a VKB Ultra on my Gunfighter stick, and a Virpil Alpha on my Virpil Collective. I have large hands and find the Ultra to be a bit of a stretch even for my hands.

[Varibraun]

Okay, their first metal stick and dampering on the base were calling my name.  Just ordered both together from the Virpil USA store.  With the first weekend 5% discount, the combination stick/base 10% discount, and $9.95 UPS shipping, the total for both was $574.16 (they didn't apply any NC sales tax).

 

I currently have the TM Warthog grip on the TM-50CM2 base w/10cm extension - so it will be interesting to see how different the new setup will feel.  Thanks @dburne for posting this, I don't know if I would have seen the Virpil announcement in my email until the first weekend discount had passed.

[9./JG27golani79]

Looking good -seems like I've ordered my gear half a year too soon ?

 

Oh well .. 

[dburne]

8 hours ago, Varibraun said:

Okay, their first metal stick and dampering on the base were calling my name.  Just ordered both together from the Virpil USA store.  With the first weekend 5% discount, the combination stick/base 10% discount, and $9.95 UPS shipping, the total for both was $574.16 (they didn't apply any NC sales tax).

 

I currently have the TM Warthog grip on the TM-50CM2 base w/10cm extension - so it will be interesting to see how different the new setup will feel.  Thanks @dburne for posting this, I don't know if I would have seen the Virpil announcement in my email until the first weekend discount had passed.

 

Congrats! And enjoy the new hardware!! I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

[JG27*PapaFly]

On 8/27/2022 at 4:50 PM, Sokol1 said:

Done, T-50CM3 base with adjustable "clutch damper": 

Didn't notice that, but it sure sounds awesome!

Guys, can we have a review from the first of you who get their hands on one of these? I'm most interested in the new damping feature. Does it make the stick behavior more realistic? In real planes, the stick never swings back and forth when you deflect it and just let go. Mine (CM2) swings about a dozen times.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Yeah, the goods must be arriving direct from outside the CONUS, so no sales tax, and the freight UPS is a bargain, couldn't resist that for a pair of new rudders, on the way.  Grab it before someone figures out how to scalp you for tax.

[Varibraun]

On 8/29/2022 at 10:26 AM, JG27_PapaFly said:

Didn't notice that, but it sure sounds awesome!

Guys, can we have a review from the first of you who get their hands on one of these? I'm most interested in the new damping feature. Does it make the stick behavior more realistic? In real planes, the stick never swings back and forth when you deflect it and just let go. Mine (CM2) swings about a dozen times.

 

I will definitely let you know once mine arrives since I currently have the CM2 and can get that same effect.

[Dusty_Steppes]

Does anyone know the degree of movement from center to full deflection of the T-50CM3 base?

 

Disregard the question. I found the answer. It has the same working angle (16 degrees) as the CM2.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Dusty_Steppes

[1Sascha]

Was very close to ordering this one, but financial considerations made me go with the Gunfighter MCG instead (regular, RUS model ... both Ultimate-variants and regular ENG were out of stock).

 

Including shipping, I paid ~€500 for the VKB and a UCM-S mount (they still had a 5% rebate thing going when I ordered). Coming from the Gladiator Evo, I absolutely wanted dampened axes, so it would've been the GF or the new CM3. But: The same sort of deal over at Virpil (CM3 base, T50 or Constellation grip, VPC short mount) would've been over €700 including tax and shipping.

 

Sadly, UPS don't seem to deliver on a Saturday, so my new stick is sitting in a warehouse about 10km away over the weekend and I have to wait until Monday... oh, the humanity! ?

 

S.

[Jaws2002]

That's an outstanding stick. 

Congrats!

 

Waiting for snail mail to bring shiny new toys is very stressful.

[JG27*PapaFly]

Does anyone know whether base size and the positions of the screws needed to fasten the base to a mount have changed compared to the CM2? I have my CM2 integrated in a home brew cockpit in a custom support made from aluminum profiles and I'd hate having to adapt the support.

[1Sascha]

5 minutes ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

Does anyone know whether base size and the positions of the screws needed to fasten the base to a mount have changed compared to the CM2?

They do offer a new adapter plate for the CM3 for their own mounts. So I would guess that something must've changed. I could be wrong, but why would they have both a CM2 and CM3 adapter listed for their mount?

 

 

S.

[Dusty_Steppes]

14 minutes ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

Does anyone know whether base size and the positions of the screws needed to fasten the base to a mount have changed compared to the CM2? I have my CM2 integrated in a home brew cockpit in a custom support made from aluminum profiles and I'd hate having to adapt the support.

MonsterTech makes a mount for the CM3. 

Joystick / Throttle Mounting Plate – MTSIM – MONSTERTECH USA

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Dusty_Steppes

[dburne]

Monster Tech makes very excellent mounts. Love mine, I use with a VKB Gunfighter Base and 200mm extension, a Virpil CM3 Throttle, and a Virpil Collective mounted to my chair.

I can have those puppies mounted or dismounted in just a few seconds. Well maybe a minute or two on the Collective. But very quick and painless.

Edited September 3, 2022 by dburne

[Jaws2002]

 

1 hour ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

Does anyone know whether base size and the positions of the screws needed to fasten the base to a mount have changed compared to the CM2? I have my CM2 integrated in a home brew cockpit in a custom support made from aluminum profiles and I'd hate having to adapt the support.

 

Are you talking about the CM3 base or CM3 throttle?

 For the new CM3 base you need the WarBRD base plate. 

The CM3 throttle uses the same base plate with the older throttles.

[1Sascha]

36 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

 For the new CM3 base you need the WarBRD base plate. 

CM3 adapter:

https://virpil-controls.eu/vpc-desk-mount-v2-v3-v4-adapter-mongoost-50cm3-base.html

 

WarBRD adapter

 

https://virpil-controls.eu/vpc-desk-mount-v2-v3-v4-adapter-warbrd-base.html

 

CM2 adapter:

https://virpil-controls.eu/vpc-desk-mount-v2-v3-v4-adapter-mt-50cm2-base.html

 

 

 

 

S.

[Jaws2002]

Yeah, you are right.

From Baur:

 

"WarBRD adapter (on your photo) is not suitable for CM3. The reason is that the CM3 has connectors at the back."

 

The holes match. Monstertech uses the same plate for both.

 

 

 

 

[Dallas88B]

2 hours ago, dburne said:

Monster Tech makes very excellent mounts.

Very much agree with this.

@1Sascha MONSTERTECH are considerably more stable than other mounts.

Take a look here https://youtu.be/XtvUIhLU9BM?t=463

 

[1Sascha]

7 hours ago, Dallas88B said:

@1Sascha MONSTERTECH are considerably more stable than other mounts.

I'm familiar with Monstertech.

 

Just pointing out that there probably was a change WRT how the CM3 attaches to VPC's own mounts. Hole pattern of the CM2 and CM3 baseplates might still be identical.

 

S.

[Jaws2002]

6 hours ago, 1Sascha said:

I'm familiar with Monstertech.

 

Just pointing out that there probably was a change WRT how the CM3 attaches to VPC's own mounts. Hole pattern of the CM2 and CM3 baseplates might still be identical.

 

S.

 

 

The hole pattern of the CM3 is identical with the holes on WarBRD base:

 

https://forum.virpil.com/index.php?/topic/12712-cm3-base-dimensions/

 

 

[1Sascha]

On 9/3/2022 at 9:41 PM, Jaws2002 said:

That's an outstanding stick. 

Congrats!

We shall see...

 

 

Ran into the UPS guy on my way out of the house, but now I really gotta run and can't tinker with this thing for the next couple of hours... dangit! ?

 

S.

[Varibraun]

On 8/29/2022 at 10:26 AM, JG27_PapaFly said:

Didn't notice that, but it sure sounds awesome!

Guys, can we have a review from the first of you who get their hands on one of these? I'm most interested in the new damping feature. Does it make the stick behavior more realistic? In real planes, the stick never swings back and forth when you deflect it and just let go. Mine (CM2) swings about a dozen times.

 

My CM3 base came in this week, but unfortunately haven't had much time with it yet.  However, I can confirm that it completely cured the "swing" of my CM2 on a 10cm extension. 

 

I think it is going to be a big improvement for me, but want to give it some flight time before final impressions.  Just wanted to post this here since I know it was a question that many had about the impact of the new clutch damper (which was the reason I purchased it).

[Varibraun]

Following up with my impressions now that I have had some flight time with the CM3 base and Alpha Prime grip (on a 10 cm extension).  TLDR: This will be my permanent stick solution unless a main stream quality FFB eventually appears by one of the main players. 

 

Background: My reason for trying this setup as soon as it was released from Virpil was that, although generally happy with the CM2 base with a TM Warthog grip, there was a lack of resistance in the center movements of the stick (others have mentioned the bounce/swing factor due to the spring).  The heavy Warthog grip likely exacerbated it on the 10cm extension, but I just didn't want to give up the feel of a metal grip (I think my fingerprint is actually etched into that WH trigger).  I tried every combination of cams, heavy springs, and finally added some in game sensitivity settings to where I was eventually satisfied with the CM2.  However, once the damper mod came out for for the Crosswinds and I saw the difference it made for me in the feel of those pedals, my radar was up for any change by Virpil on their bases.  So, I was really excited when I saw @dburne's post about the CM3 Base and the US Virpil store was a bonus. (FYI - My experience with VKB is limited to the T-Rudders, which I still use for WWI a/c.  I had decided to stay in the Virpil products since I was impressed by my CM3 throttle and wanted to stay with that software.  So I can't compare to the GF MKIII base or Ultimate Grip, which may be just as effective as my new Virpil setup).

 

Impressions of the CM3 Base:

-Adding the clutch damper with the choices of cams and springs gives you the ability to completely personalize the feel of your stick throughout the ENTIRE range of motion.

-Damping allows you to remove all bounce/swing on the stick (this was true for both the Alpha Prime and the heavier Warthog grip).

-Unlike the CM2 base (where I took it apart and tried every cam and spring), I was completely happy with the preinstalled cam (aviasim soft center) and spring (medium) once I started adjusting the springs and damping on the base to my preferred resistance.

-Easy to adjust both spring tension & damping directly on the base, so fine tuning is simple once you chose your cam and spring.

-I removed all in game sensitivity settings I had set for the CM2 and the damping still gives a very stable control with fully linear setting (formation flying and holding gunsight picture is now easier for me).

-One potential negative I noticed - When the damping clutch is FULLY tightened, I thought there was some slight unevenness "stiction" on the fine movement (this could be a simple lubricant issue).  However, since I am flying with not quite full clutch tension, this is not an issue for me and at my setting the fine movement is completely smooth.

**Final verdict for me is that it was definitely worth the upgrade cost from the CM2, it is exactly what I have been seeking ever since moving to an extension several years ago (honestly, darn near perfect).

 

Impressions of the Alpha Prime Grip:

-Lighter than the TM Warthog (the alloy still has a metal feel that I wanted, but not quite as "solid" a feel as the WH aluminum).

-Shape of the grip feels a little more ergonomically fit to the hand - just a bit thicker/rounded than the WH.

-With the height adjustment plate, fits my average sized hand well and all buttons except the "pinky" switch are easy to reach (pinky switch is more of a "ring finger" switch for me if I don't want move my hand).

-Lots of buttons.  Since I use Voice Attack, I will have to figure out what to do with all of the button/scroll/mini joystick choices (I will probably use the Virpil Software to add "buttons" to the mini stick for another hat switch).

-LED lighting not a pro or a con for me (I don't see the stick in VR), but very easy to turn it off in the software.  I can certainly see why some might like it in space sims and it complements the lighting on the clear buttons of the CM3 throttle.

**Final verdict for me is that I am happy using it instead of my WH, but certainly not a slam dunk decision like the base.

 

Finally, a question for any of the Alpha grip users out there, it came with an extra black button in the packaging, any idea what is that meant to swap with on the grip?

 

[Dusty_Steppes]

 

4 hours ago, Varibraun said:

**Final verdict for me is that I am happy using it instead of my WH, but certainly not a slam dunk decision like the base.

I have an issue with my prime grip where the setscrew that locks the twist function works loose. I don't want to overtighten it and strip it out. I thought about using blue Loctite on it, but I was concerned about possibly gumming something up internally. Do you know if there is a recommended torque for this screw and have you run into this problem?

Edited September 25, 2022 by Dusty_Steppes

[dburne]

Nice write up @Varibraun thanks for all the good info!

[JG27*PapaFly]

12 hours ago, Dusty_Steppes said:

I have an issue with my prime grip where the setscrew that locks the twist function works loose. I don't want to overtighten it and strip it out.

I've had the same issue with my alpha grip from the beginning. At some point I just gave up the idea of locking the grip. There's an upside to that: for me, the yaw motion improves ergonomy, as it enables me to reach all buttons independent of stick deflection.

[Varibraun]

14 hours ago, Dusty_Steppes said:

I have an issue with my prime grip where the setscrew that locks the twist function works loose. I don't want to overtighten it and strip it out. I thought about using blue Loctite on it, but I was concerned about possibly gumming something up internally. Do you know if there is a recommended torque for this screw and have you run into this problem?

 

1 hour ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

I've had the same issue with my alpha grip from the beginning. At some point I just gave up the idea of locking the grip. There's an upside to that: for me, the yaw motion improves ergonomy, as it enables me to reach all buttons independent of stick deflection.

 

I did have it loosen initially, but I tightened it pretty tight when it first happened and it hasn't loosened again.  However, I am early into it's use, so I guess we will see.  Unlike PapaFly, it will drive me crazy if it doesn't stay tight and I would go back to the Warthog if it can't be resolved.  I really hope that doesn't happen with the Prime.

[Dusty_Steppes]

6 hours ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

I've had the same issue with my alpha grip from the beginning. At some point I just gave up the idea of locking the grip. There's an upside to that: for me, the yaw motion improves ergonomy, as it enables me to reach all buttons independent of stick deflection.

That is a bit concerning. That would drive me nuts.

 

5 hours ago, Varibraun said:

I did have it loosen initially, but I tightened it pretty tight when it first happened and it hasn't loosened again.  However, I am early into it's use, so I guess we will see.  Unlike PapaFly, it will drive me crazy if it doesn't stay tight and I would go back to the Warthog if it can't be resolved.  I really hope that doesn't happen with the Prime.

I initially snugged it up when I set it up, since then I have had to tighten it twice (each time a little bit tighter) and it is only 10 days old. I'm hoping the third time was a charm. Other than this issue, this grip and base combination performs extremely smooth and precise as you said in your review. I am also running it with the stock cams and springs.

[1Sascha]

On 9/25/2022 at 7:37 PM, Varibraun said:

-Easy to adjust both spring tension & damping directly on the base, so fine tuning is simple once you chose your cam and spring.

That's the one thing I'd really love to see on the Gunfighter. Adjusting its clutches, especially when the base is mounted underneath the UCM-mount, is a needlessly complicated operation. Maybe I'm too dumb to see a better way, but if you want to adjust those things and verify the changes in the position you'll be using the stick in, you need to take everything apart, re-assemble minus the dust-cover, adjust the clutches, then take things apart again and finally re-assemble everything. Even with practice and good tools, this takes at least 15 or 20 minutes if you want to do it properly.

 

On the bright side: It stops me from continually tinkering with the clutches, but still ... ? Some "on-the-fly-adjustment" capability would definitely be appreciated.

 

Shouldn't be such a difficult change, since all it would take (I think) would be a different sort of dust-cover with two holes to access the adjustments screws.

 

On 9/25/2022 at 7:37 PM, Varibraun said:

One potential negative I noticed - When the damping clutch is FULLY tightened, I thought there was some slight unevenness "stiction" on the fine movement (this could be a simple lubricant issue).  However, since I am flying with not quite full clutch tension, this is not an issue for me and at my setting the fine movement is completely smooth.

Are they using dry clutches on the CM3 or do they come with dampening grease applied from the factory? If they come completely dry, it might be a good idea to put some Nyogel on there.

 

From personal experience with the GF (which I felt with 2 year old, rotting and sticky factory grease, completely dry and then with fresh, 767A-esque dampening grease): The difference this stuff makes is tremendous.

 

 

 

S.

Edited September 27, 2022 by 1Sascha