Flying Circus Future

[Enceladus828]

3 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

I’d like to see the Macedonian Front completed one day.

That could work, I'm not very familiar with the Balkan campaign but after reading this three part article on air war in the Balkans it seems doable. There was considerable air activity over Palestine so they'd do whatever had the most air activity first. However, I don't see this happening until after an Italian Front map is added. I was thinking after FC6 (Italian Front) that instead of doing the Balkans or Palestine that there be another Eastern Front map. There are probably more places on the Eastern Front than simply the Galicia region where considerable air activity took place.

 

3 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

And the Channel map, Tarnopol and the Italian Alps too. Though these might be left to third party developers.

It's all being done by a 3rd party, mate unless Ugra pulls out. But more 3rd party teams could come in.

[Jackfraser24]

How do we know 1CGS will continue making content for Flying Circus after Vol.IV (and that’s if Vol.IV (which I believe so) would be announced)?

[Enceladus828]

On 2/24/2024 at 2:07 AM, Jackfraser24 said:

How do we know 1CGS will continue making content for Flying Circus after Vol.IV (and that’s if Vol.IV (which I believe so) would be announced)?

Because it doesn't make sense to rebuild RoF in this game as FC only to finish without the Channel Map, seaplanes and Eastern Front Map and planes. FC could have ended at FC1 but since it didn't and there's been demand for more RoF content to be brought over in FC2, FC3 and 8 more land-planes... unofficially FC4... then there's demand for more planes and fronts including some that weren't in RoF.

[Jackfraser24]

12 hours ago, Enceladus828 said:

Because it doesn't make sense to rebuild RoF in this game as FC only to finish without the Channel Map, seaplanes and Eastern Front Map and planes. FC could have ended at FC1 but since it didn't and there's been demand for more RoF content to be brought over in FC2, FC3 and 8 more land-planes... unofficially FC4... then there's demand for more planes and fronts including some that weren't in RoF.

I see. I think a lot needs to be done on the Western Front map first. For example Paris needs to be built up because right now it is just a paper city on the map. I know that it would take quite some time and effort and it may affect the performance on our computer but I don’t know for sure. 
 

I’d want to see them do a Tarnopol map next with the Imperial Russian Air Service aircraft like the Sikorsky S-16 and the Ilya Muromets. 
 

I’d also like them or a Third Party to do a Romanian map concerning the war between Romania, Russia and the Central Powers. I don’t know if much air action happened there though compared to other places on the Eastern Front or the Western Front for that matter. 

[Enceladus828]

10 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

I see. I think a lot needs to be done on the Western Front map first. For example Paris needs to be built up because right now it is just a paper city on the map.

I would rather see more maps and planes in FC before adding Paris, personally. While yes it would be nice to fly over and there were aerial bombings of it up to March 1918, it would be more profitable to add new maps and planes.

10 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

I’d also like them or a Third Party to do a Romanian map concerning the war between Romania, Russia and the Central Powers. I don’t know if much air action happened there though compared to other places on the Eastern Front or the Western Front for that matter. 

There was a lot of air action involving Romania in WW1, the Romanian Air Corps (RAC) acquired over 300 planes from the Entente and flew over 750 sorties. So yes, doing a Romania map would be worth it. More info: Romanian Air Corps - Wikipedia

[Jackfraser24]

1 hour ago, Enceladus828 said:

I would rather see more maps and planes in FC before adding Paris, personally. While yes it would be nice to fly over and there were aerial bombings of it up to March 1918, it would be more profitable to add new maps and planes.

There was a lot of air action involving Romania in WW1, the Romanian Air Corps (RAC) acquired over 300 planes from the Entente and flew over 750 sorties. So yes, doing a Romania map would be worth it. More info: Romanian Air Corps - Wikipedia

Thanks for the information.

[Jackfraser24]

At this point will there be a Flying Circus Vol.V after they release Vol.IV? Also, will they build the city of Paris?

[LukeFF]

9 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

At this point will there be a Flying Circus Vol.V after they release Vol.IV? Also, will they build the city of Paris?

 

Nothing has been decided right now beyond Volume 4.

[Jackfraser24]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Nothing has been decided right now beyond Volume 4.

Does the same go for Paris?

[LukeFF]

9 hours ago, Jackfraser24 said:

Does the same go for Paris?

 

Don't count on it being modeled - it's far too big of a city to build. That's why the Normandy map ends where it does. 

[Jackfraser24]

3 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Don't count on it being modeled - it's far too big of a city to build. That's why the Normandy map ends where it does. 

Should we expect to see some more collector planes for Flying Circus?

[Zooropa_Fly]

16 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Nothing has been decided right now beyond Volume 4.

 

I think this covers it Jack !!

[Jackfraser24]

11 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

 

I think this covers it Jack !!

I suppose you're on to it sharper than me. I think many of us would like to see more WWI collector planes though.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

On 7/27/2024 at 1:41 PM, Jackfraser24 said:

I suppose you're on to it sharper than me. I think many of us would like to see more WWI collector planes though.

Early aeroplanes are waited by community for decade now. Many planes are missing plus current with different engines/propellers wariants. Even if FM data is missing is not a problem because it could be calculated very accurately as Mr. Holtzauge proved in his book and work.

[Trooper117]

I think FC is just an afterthought for them now... we had quite a bit of info about what is on the horizon and still to come for WWII content, but for WWI only FC4 has been mentioned, not a hint of anything else (unless I've missed something of course).

The sad thing is, there isn't any other developer who is delving into the WWI air combat scene, with a new all singing and dancing product... it's not seen as a good financial reward for the effort I suspect.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

45 minutes ago, Trooper117 said:

I think FC is just an afterthought for them now... we had quite a bit of info about what is on the horizon and still to come for WWII content, but for WWI only FC4 has been mentioned, not a hint of anything else (unless I've missed something of course).

The sad thing is, there isn't any other developer who is delving into the WWI air combat scene, with a new all singing and dancing product... it's not seen as a good financial reward for the effort I suspect.

Making those WW1 crates is much easier and quicker in terms of time needed than modeling more complicated WW2 era aeroplanes. Simple or no  systems, simple engines with similar properties, simple gauges, not that much to model in the cockpit. 

[Russkly]

4 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

I think FC is just an afterthought for them now... we had quite a bit of info about what is on the horizon and still to come for WWII content, but for WWI only FC4 has been mentioned, not a hint of anything else (unless I've missed something of course).

The sad thing is, there isn't any other developer who is delving into the WWI air combat scene, with a new all singing and dancing product... it's not seen as a good financial reward for the effort I suspect.

 

Yeah, it's a shame from my perspective too.  FC just looks and feels so excellent in VR, and WW1 air combat has a slowness and almost balletic quality to it that WW2 does not have.

 

Porting over RoF to FC over four modules has, I hope, been a strong cash and profit generator for 1CGS, but with the (for me of no interest) Korean theatre on the horizon, I'm guessing almost all of the team's resources will be focused on that project.

 

To be fair, they have now pretty much covered the main elements of WW1 in the air (Western Front at least).

 

We can wish here for all we like, but, unless Luke tells us something different, I think it's good to manage our expectations and come to terms with the likely fact that FC4 will be the end of FC apart from maybe some tweaks to AI, FM, etc. if we're very lucky (although Luke's recent update on the AI thread doesn't make me overly optimistic).

 

Perhaps the best we could hope for would be for 1CGS to sell or licence the FC franchise to a third party and let them play with it.

 

One day I'd love to see the sales figures for RoF vs FC vs GB (even just as a pie chart with no actual money numbers), but I imagine we never will.

 

Our feeling here is that WW1 is a niche compared to WW2, but I wonder what the reality is?  Intellectual interest only of course.

 

So, let's look forward to FC4 and hope for some further tweaks down the road; just don't hold your breath...

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

3 hours ago, Russkly said:

 

To be fair, they have now pretty much covered the main elements of WW1 in the air (Western Front at least).

Yes but not aeroplanes, there is plenty room for collector planes.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

4 hours ago, Russkly said:

Our feeling here is that WW1 is a niche compared to WW2, but I wonder what the reality is?  Intellectual interest only of course.

I agree, and I suspect the same to be true of Korea.  A smaller piece of the pie would be my guess.  Which also makes me wonder if it will out sell FC?  I have my doubts, but wish them great success with it.

[Enceladus828]

11 hours ago, Trooper117 said:

I think FC is just an afterthought for them now... we had quite a bit of info about what is on the horizon and still to come for WWII content, but for WWI only FC4 has been mentioned, not a hint of anything else (unless I've missed something of course).

What I don’t understand is why can’t Ugra Media add the remaining maps and planes. The devs can work on their main project— Korea — while Ugra can add the remaining planes. That’s how it has always been with FC development.

[LukeFF]

46 minutes ago, Enceladus828 said:

What I don’t understand is why can’t Ugra Media add the remaining maps and planes. The devs can work on their main project— Korea — while Ugra can add the remaining planes. That’s how it has always been with FC development.

 

You only have part of that right. Yes, Ugra works on converting the planes, but we still have to check them to ensure everything works correctly, add them to career and quick missions, etc. It's still a substantial amount of work. 

[ST_Catchov]

7 hours ago, Russkly said:

Our feeling here is that WW1 is a niche compared to WW2, but I wonder what the reality is?

 

Yeah people keep saying that. But It's just a feeling. There is no substance to it. Unsubstantiated propaganda. It's rubbish.  Anybody with any style and taste knows that WW1 rocks.

[BMA_Hellbender]

FM revisions (proper ones, not dirty fixes) to existing planes would almost be like getting new planes, it might even bring some people back who have left the sim over the years. Some of the worst offenders are the Airco DH.2, Nieuport 28 and the Albatros series.

 

From what I’ve read at the very least the DH.2 might be getting looked at.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

8 hours ago, LukeFF said:

It's still a substantial amount of work

 I believe they hired more staff, in theory it should help with workflow. So when Korea is done or development allow they would have more manpower to work with third parties or fix some FC FMs. They did find that time in the past having smaller team.

[ST_Catchov]

4 hours ago, =IRFC=Hellbender said:

From what I’ve read at the very least the DH.2 might be getting looked at.

 

The DH2's FM is being updated from that of its RoF brother. It was plainly stated. It seems the devs are paying particular attention to FM's on new releases which is good. But the chances of revising FM's on the older, existing crates, N28, ALB, [SE] are remote in my view given their cool reception over a number of years now to revision requests on numerous data-laden threads. It'd be nice but. It'd sure spice up the forum a bit and make the moderators earn their keep.

 

More likely are collector kites and map improvements. But likely doesn't mean definite so who knows.

 

[LukeFF]

8 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

 I believe they hired more staff, in theory it should help with workflow. So when Korea is done or development allow they would have more manpower to work with third parties or fix some FC FMs. They did find that time in the past having smaller team.

 

Yes, in theory, but the reality is these personnel were brought in primarily to start working on the new series starting with Korea. 

 

Now, I can't predict what the future holds for what we plan to build, but based on what we have said so far the WWI fans here need to be realistic about how much support is going to go into FC going forwards. 

[Jackfraser24]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Yes, in theory, but the reality is these personnel were brought in primarily to start working on the new series starting with Korea. 

 

Now, I can't predict what the future holds for what we plan to build, but based on what we have said so far the WWI fans here need to be realistic about how much support is going to go into FC going forwards. 

I understand that we need to have realistic expectations. Unfortunately for many fans of the series, from what I understand, Great Battles is in its twilight period of its development, or at least with 1CGS. I don’t know much about running a business but I think they have to move more staff towards working the new 4th generation of IL-2 in order to speed up production of the game. 
 

But who knows what the future may bring. I don’t mean to sound unrealistically optimistic but they might choose to do a WWI sub-series. I hope that they return to Europe one day once they have finished with Korea and the Pacific theatres. And I hope that they do a WWI Western Front where they can add in large cities like Paris and London.

[RNAS10_Mitchell]

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Yes, in theory, but the reality is these personnel were brought in primarily to start working on the new series starting with Korea. 

 

Now, I can't predict what the future holds for what we plan to build, but based on what we have said so far the WWI fans here need to be realistic about how much support is going to go into FC going forwards. 

Wasn't expecting much if anything new, but lack of support is a troubling comment.   History has shown that at times, WW2 modifications have really screwed up FC.  Not a frequent thing, but it has happened (control rods,  misfires,  etc).  

[Enceladus828]

On 7/30/2024 at 4:13 PM, LukeFF said:

 

You only have part of that right. Yes, Ugra works on converting the planes, but we still have to check them to ensure everything works correctly, add them to career and quick missions, etc. It's still a substantial amount of work. 

 

6 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Now, I can't predict what the future holds for what we plan to build, but based on what we have said so far the WWI fans here need to be realistic about how much support is going to go into FC going forwards.

So does this mean that the Karelia and Odessa planesets will still happen and if so who’s making them?

[LukeFF]

Yes, Karelia and Odessa are still being worked on by various development groups.

[Russkly]

15 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, in theory, but the reality is these personnel were brought in primarily to start working on the new series starting with Korea. 

 

Now, I can't predict what the future holds for what we plan to build, but based on what we have said so far the WWI fans here need to be realistic about how much support is going to go into FC going forwards. 

 

@LukeFF Whilst your comment about ongoing FC support comes as no real surprise, given that 1CGS still expects/hopes that punters will shell out yet another USD80 for FC4 when it's released, I think it would be good to tell the customers exactly what support they can still expect to receive for an as yet unreleased product.

 

It is hard to countenance throwing USD80 at something that hasn't been released yet but that may receive no further support.

 

So, as much as you can, please let your prospective customers know exactly what they can and cannot expect vis á vis future FC support.

 

We've had this conversation before, and I know that you're just the messenger, but 1CGS cannot in good faith withdraw support for a product it hasn't even launched yet.

[Aapje]

@Russkly

 

I'm pretty sure that @LukeFF chose his words a bit poorly here and with 'support,' he meant new development, not support for the released titles. I'm sure that they'll still do fixes for FC1-4, if needed.

[Russkly]

36 minutes ago, Aapje said:

@Russkly

 

I'm pretty sure that @LukeFF chose his words a bit poorly here and with 'support,' he meant new development, not support for the released titles. I'm sure that they'll still do fixes for FC1-4, if needed.

 

@Aapje I sincerely hope that you are right, and I know @LukeFFis in an unenviable position here trying to balance the needs, desires and wishes of the customer community with the strategy of 1CGS.

 

However, I don't think it's unfair to ask for more precise clarification of what we will and won't receive in terms of future FC support, whether that be fixes, tweaks or actual iterative development work.

 

We're talking about an as-yet-unfinished product series that will cost customers USD320 in total - I think we as customers can expect a little more love than that.

 

Even just: "We will continue to work on x, y and z within the following time frame, but there will be no further work done on a, b or c" would be better than vague indications that some work may be carried out, if the dev team's time allows.

 

I have supported everything 1C and its various iterations have produced in the last 25-odd years and have spent hundreds of USD/GBP/EUR on these products, which have been and remain wonderful, but my patience is wearing a little thin with the treatment of support for the FC series in particular.

 

 

[Zooropa_Fly]

You got everything you paid for.

Does anyone actually play this anymore - or is it all about wanting what 'one' doesn't have ?

 

If they were making vast sums of money from FC I'm sure it would be a greater focus.

 

We're probably 'lucky' that there was an FC3 with FC4 on the way.

Everything comes to an end, and with ww1 being the nichiest of niches within a niche...

 

The fact is, that FC has never reached the heights of participation and interest that RoF had.

 

Glass half full.

[Russkly]

30 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

You got everything you paid for.

In the purest sense, you are right, @Zooropa_Fly, but that's not how software development works, is it? Products are launched and then fixed, tweaked and further refined and/or developed.

 

This is now the expectation among software customers, and 1CGS has traditionally done just that.

 

Probably why the SaaS model was born.

 

Quote

Does anyone actually play this anymore - or is it all about wanting what 'one' doesn't have ?

If they were making vast sums of money from FC I'm sure it would be a greater focus.

Not sure why either of those points would be relevant to this particular conversation about further support for FC - the bottom line is that 1CGS are asking for USD80 for the final module of a USD320 game series whilst at the same time indicating that there may be no further work done to optimise (or perhaps even fix) the series.

 

If FC4 were freeware or heavily discounted, I would have limited support/development expectations, but this is a full-priced and (relative to many other games of all genres) expensive module.

 

Quote

The fact is, that FC has never reached the heights of participation and interest that RoF had.

 

I'd be interested to know what you base that statement on. Not being contentious, but, apart from the numbers on MP servers, which obviously don't include the SP community, how do we know the relative success/popularity/participation of RoF vs FC or GB?

 

I for one have never played either RoF or FC online, but I have thousands of hours with both products.

Edited August 1, 2024 by Russkly

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

I was disappointed when devs in some way discarded the work done by Mr. Holtzauge, because I always hear that without data provided devs would not check or fix old FMs , anecdotes and testimony were not enough and I agree it might be misleading but   test and data is strong evidence and was provided in the book with explanation and sources. Letter in response to yt video about that book 

 Mr. Holtzauge provided the data 

in the way suits the devs but there goes silence....

I know any fixes to FC  took years to acknowledge by devs, great examples are weak wings and control surfaces constantly jamming or plane shaking literally from 3 bullets in the wing. But finally we got them fixed. The FC is in better shape now, with Airco Dh.2 FM fix will be even better. Good news but we need a little bit more fixes to be good about FMs. I hope that day will come eventually. New content for FC  is another story and oprtunity to make money, would they do it , I don't know, I hope so. 

[ST_Catchov]

1 hour ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

You got everything you paid for.

Does anyone actually play this anymore - or is it all about wanting what 'one' doesn't have ?

 

If they were making vast sums of money from FC I'm sure it would be a greater focus.

 

We're probably 'lucky' that there was an FC3 with FC4 on the way.

Everything comes to an end, and with ww1 being the nichiest of niches within a niche...

 

The fact is, that FC has never reached the heights of participation and interest that RoF had.

 

Glass half full.

 

  Did BSR hack your account? No-one's safe anymore. We're all doomed. 

 

[Jackfraser24]

10 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Yes, Karelia and Odessa are still being worked on by various development groups.

Do you know if there are plans to release further collector maps? If so is there any chance a late war Eastern Front map planned? 

• Berlin?
• East Prussia?
• Balaton?

I’ve gathered that the IL-10 might be added into Great Battles. The IL-10 never fought at Odessa or Karelia so I have taken it as a sign that a late war Eastern Front battle module is on the cards. 

 

Edited August 1, 2024 by Jackfraser24

[Zooropa_Fly]

It's been said in the past that somewhere in the region of 90% of customers never fly online.

Obviously I have no inside info on anything, but I think it's fair to speculate based on proportionality.

So if I see MP servers empty other than a couple of pre-arranged times, ever reducing forum participation.. I conclude that interest is low, and thus new content might not do much better than break even.

 

Even after development ended for RoF, you could still go online any time of day and there'd be 20, 30, 40 people online.

FC during the day = 0, maybe 1 whenever I check.

So if MP and forum interest is declining, I expect that to be representative of offline interest also.

Perhaps this is why the devs are moving on to pastures new - to generate some buzz again.

Let's be honest - the same decline is happening to the ww2 side of things also. 

 

For anyone that exclusively plays offline, there's already plenty content to play with forever more, without the devs having to do anything else.*

Personally I was in it for the fast action servers, and the banter that came with them in the chat.

When people used to S! each other.. When noobs used to ask 'how to start engine' of their Spad.. replied to with 'Press B' !!

There was an element of fun which has never really been present in FC for me. It's all very sterile.

So I haven't bought FC3 yet.

 

*My only concern with future support ending, would be the ability to play content offline in the event of master servers being taken down.

I've spent thousands of hours making 'maps' in the ME of both games, so wouldn't be happy if they became unplayable.

Obviously the same goes for Career and Campaign modes.

But I expect the devs would take care of this if and when they have to.

 

The current costs of modules aren't really anything to complain about.

I expect you could pay the same for a single plane in DCS - albeit a more complex machine.

Everything else in life has doubled or more in price (in spite of official inflation numbers) over the last few years.

GB module prices have remained pretty static. Thus I'd say they were very good value in the current climate.

 

BSR - ah yes my old  mucker.

I've taken up golf again, so I'm quite prepared to give him a couple of lessons.

An olive branch if you like.

I'm sure I could get him down to a single figure handicap, while we bah-humbug it up about all things ww1 !

 

S!

 

 

Edited August 1, 2024 by Zooropa_Fly

[JGr2/J5_Klugermann]

5 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

For anyone that exclusively plays offline, there's already plenty content to play with forever more, without the devs having to do anything else.*

Personally I was in it for the fast action servers, and the banter that came with them in the chat.

When people used to S! each other.. When noobs used to ask 'how to start engine' of their Spad.. replied to with 'Press B' !!

 

 

Ahhh....the good old days.