P-51B lacks aluminum shine? Fixed with 4.073 update! Thank you!

[Rjel]

Is it just my imagination or does the P-51B/C not have the same level of NMF shininess its sister D models do? I've been playing with the template and its alpha and I'm only able to get a glossy looking gray NMF. Any suggestions?

Edited March 15, 2022 by Rjel

[Jaws2002]

Yeah. It's not even close. This game had this inconsistency with the gloss/shine for a long time.  In ROF you could get planes really shiny, but once BOS came, that option was removed.

Now some planes could get that look while others can't. 

 

It's all over the place and it's pretty annoying. What gives a certain look on one plane, looks vastly different on the next plane. No explanation, no warning. They just turn it off and on randomly.

 

In general, the aircraft materials and how light interacts with materials is odd in this game. From some angles it looks right, but once the light hits from different angle it looks wrong. I guess it has something to do with the lighting engine.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Jaws2002

[Rjel]

I’m glad I’m not the only one seeing it. Hope the team looks at it again as it really limits what the plane can be when skinned as a NMF. 

[Tempus]

What really gives you the Alpha template is the shine, gloss or matt aspect in your skin:

 

Shine / polished/Bare metal = light grey tones

Gloss: mid grey tones

Matt: Dark grey tones

 

On the other hand you can also play with the grey tones in the skin template, just to differenciate some panels from the rest but mantaining same Alpha, as you wish.

In this skin I only played with the greys in the template, but alpha is all a monotone light grey for the aluminium panels. I hope it will help you in any.

 

 

[Jaws2002]

I loaded the same skin on both P-51B and P-51d. Both are in the same mission, side by side. Check how different the materials look.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Jaws2002

[Rjel]

@Tatata_TimeI’ve been doing as you’ve mentioned but I’m not seeing the results I’d expect. I even took a D model NMF skin I made a while back that I’ve been very happy with its shine and grafted that onto to the B in the game. Whereas on the D it looked like real metal on the B it just looked glossy gray. Very disappointing to be honest. Ah well, I’m sure it will get corrected at some point. Plenty of OD skins I can do in the meantime. 

5 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

I loaded the same skin on both P-51B and P-51d. Both are in the same mission, side by side. Check how different the materials look.

You posted just as I was typing the same thing. Great minds as they say. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Rjel

[Raptorattacker]

Unfortunately it seems that only some of the planes are blessed with the proper bare aluminium look and unfortunately this isn't one of them. This is such a shame as a lot of them were, as the P-51D model, left with said bare aluminium.

Sad but true... It doesn't really matter what you do with the alpha, you will still get a result that looks like it's been dipped in semi-skimmed milk.

[Tempus]

At the beginnings of 2020 (like covid) dev team introduced a major update  that tweaked the ambient light reflexions.... so in the P-51 that tweak eliminated, IMAHO, the unnatural mirror /Chrome effect. I said unnatural effect cause that is a nowadays metal corrosion resistant treatment done by restorers to preserve and elong the life time of those recovered warbirds, also to visually attract the attention of the crowd in any aerial festival, But I've never observed that in any documented wartime A/C. It would be the most famous and recreated skin of all times. Also they would became the most dodged shining dudes by jerry at 30,000 fts, like a cat with a laser dot ;-).

 

On the other hand... B/C model has just been released, so in a "near" future they would tweak anything to make it that way.... Also I can remember P-51D template has been released twice. It means nothing is definitive...

 

It would be great if they also introduce the naked exhausts too in the D model template, but I guess it is not an easy implementation. I tried same naking technique for the D model as I found for the B template but with no results. 

 

 

  

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Tatata_Time

[Danziger]

46 minutes ago, Raptorattacker said:

Unfortunately it seems that only some of the planes are blessed with the proper bare aluminium look and unfortunately this isn't one of them. This is such a shame as a lot of them were, as the P-51D model, left with said bare aluminium.

Sad but true... It doesn't really matter what you do with the alpha, you will still get a result that looks like it's been dipped in semi-skimmed milk.

What's weird to me is there was a big deal made a while back about the new bare metal effect. I was under the impression that every new plane would come with it and hopeful that older planes like the P-40 would be updated with it. 

[Raptorattacker]

38 minutes ago, Danziger said:

What's weird to me is there was a big deal made a while back about the new bare metal effect. I was under the impression that every new plane would come with it and hopeful that older planes like the P-40 would be updated with it. 

MY thoughts exactly! I've posted about this several times in the Forum but, as yet...

[szelljr]

1 hour ago, Tatata_Time said:

...i really hate pictures like here the 2 plane pictures .  Is like the car pictures attached below.  Cars in the ordinary days is not like that. Planes in WW2 like in the picturtes ?? Its a joke. 

 

 

  

 

 

Here you go 2 'War time " P51... 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by szelljr

[Rjel]

No one is saying the B should look like it’s been buffed out to a mirror like finish, but it also should not look like it’s had a spray can of glossy gray paint applied to it either. 

[Jaws2002]

The problem is inconsistency in how materials are reacting to light.

If it's painted aluminum, it's painted aluminum, if it's bare aluminum, it's bare aluminum. It should react to light the same, doesn't matter what plane it's on. Sure the production process of that sheet metal is important and there were variations, but in the game there's no consistency in how the skin will look, under the same light conditions. 

Each plane reacts to light however it wants and the skinners can't get consistent results. 

 Just because most bare metal planes back then weren't shining mirror, doesn't change the fact that they could be polished to that look and plenty are still flying today with that look. 

 

2 hours ago, szelljr said:

 

Here you go 2 'War time " P51... 

 

 

 

 

It's the multiple lights and polish look that give cars in showrooms that look. That's artificial lighting to obtain a certain look. Many new cars look that way when they are new and many can be made to look like that. What's different in showrooms is the light. I could take my car to the detailing shop, pay $200 and get it to look exactly like that.  then if i take it to the a showroom, with proper lighting it's going to look exactly like in that picture.

My point is, in the real world, the light works the same on all objects. 

About that pony in the second video. That's an old plane. (in Korea). Not all planes were old and worn out.  It's P-51 and ww2 we are talking about and most of them saw less than a year of combat. 

 True planes get old, get used and get worn out, but how the light works doesn't change.  In game, you can make a plane to look mate and worn out, you should be able to create that show room look as well, because it existed. 

 Not everyone used their planes like they stole them. Some took care of them and on rare occasion they even polished them. 

 

 

  The problem is not how, in general combat planes look on the battle field, but how are you, as repainter, allowed to make them look.

 

You can paint a plane pink and cover it in dildos, but God forbid, don't you dare try to create a polished aluminium look.

4 hours ago, Tatata_Time said:

But I've never observed that in any documented wartime A/C. It would be the most famous and recreated skin of all times.

Actually I read plenty of accounts of crew chiefs polishing the aircraft.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Jaws2002

[Jaws2002]

Check this out:

 

 https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/the-u-s-army-air-forces-strips-its-planes-of-paint/

 

Aircraft got waxed or got a clear, protective coat, before leaving the factory.

[Raptorattacker]

The SIMPLE fact is NOT to have them looking like they were in a carshow, but to have the capability to have that option of reflectiveness so when you're skinning you can tone DOWN from that. Even if you wanted to put a replacement panel somewhere on the plane, it COULD look new. At the moment it doesn't even look like weathered aluminium, let alone polished aluminium. Not only that but if someone were to want to do a polished plane (for whatever reason) then they could (such as attached picture below). To tone down is an option that would be nice to have (and almost compulsory in the case of a genuine-looking working plane) but it's impossible at the moment to tone UP. Like I said, the optimum reflectiveness available at the moment looks like a piece of plywood painted matt grey with water chucked at it!

 

The restored real-life version, polished. It would be nice to HAVE this option, even if we never used it...

Edited January 23, 2022 by Raptorattacker

[Tempus]

1 hour ago, Raptorattacker said:

The SIMPLE fact is NOT to have them looking like they were in a carshow, but to have the capability to have that option of reflectiveness so when you're skinning you can tone DOWN from that. Even if you wanted to put a replacement panel somewhere on the plane, it COULD look new. At the moment it doesn't even look like weathered aluminium, let alone polished aluminium. Not only that but if someone were to want to do a polished plane (for whatever reason) then they could (such as attached picture below). To tone down is an option that would be nice to have (and almost compulsory in the case of a genuine-looking working plane) but it's impossible at the moment to tone UP. Like I said, the optimum reflectiveness available at the moment looks like a piece of plywood painted matt grey with water chucked at it!

 

The restored real-life version, polished. It would be nice to HAVE this option, even if we never used it...

 

200% Agree

[DarkWolf29]

There is a similar difference between the P-47D-28 and the D-22, with the latter being much duller. You can put a D-22 skin on a D-28 and it will be just as shiny as an actual D-28 skin. Took me awhile to figure out it wasn't caused by the skin's own alpha layer.

 

I wonder is the difference the result of different people working on the two different variants? Or was it an artistic descision to make the bare metal look more accurate?

 

DW

[Jaws2002]

Someone made the decision based on their opinion how each planes should look, contrary to how light reacts with materials in real world. 

 I've seen this attitude in CLOD as well. There's a sort of cloud reflection effect forced on all planes all the time, because someone in the team looked at a photo at an airshow and didn't understand what he saw.

 

In my opinion the designers should worry about the official skins that are released with the game, and stay out of what skinners want to model. Make sure the lighting engine reproduces how light works, as accurately as possible, without trying to force their artistic opinion on what skinners do. 

   Changing how alpha works from plane to plane is pretty annoying.

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Jaws2002

[Rjel]

I'm going off of memory but it seems like there was a similar situation with another plane that wasn't displaying correctly. Which one it was or how long ago this was I can't say but I seem to remember Jason posting that the NMF effect hadn't been turned on. Perhaps this is a similar situation? It makes little sense the B and the razorback P-47 shouldn't have exactly the same shine as their brethren.

[Raptorattacker]

It just doesn't really seem to make any sense to me that planes don't all have the same rendering as from when they introduced it (at least). As @Jaws2002 and @Rjel both say, especially on planes such as the 51 and the 47 as great examples of this. The early models are MADE of thesame materials in real life so why aren't they in-game? Fairly straightforward really.

I gotta say though Jaws2002, I don't think it's so much of a 'forcing of opinions' so much as different people in the dev  department just have different approaches so I wouldn't say it was a personal thing. For instance, personally I tend to think that the paintjobs on the WW1 planes are, by default, too shiny and I always dull 'em down a bit. That however is an option available to us whereas adding shininess isn't on the WW2 machines! 

I'm gonna put another post up in the appropriate place, maybe link to this thread as well. What d'you say?

Edited January 24, 2022 by Raptorattacker

[Raptorattacker]

Here...

 

[Danziger]

8 hours ago, Raptorattacker said:

It just doesn't really seem to make any sense to me that planes don't all have the same rendering as from when they introduced it (at least). As @Jaws2002 and @Rjel both say, especially on planes such as the 51 and the 47 as great examples of this. The early models are MADE of thesame materials in real life so why aren't they in-game? Fairly straightforward really.

I gotta say though Jaws2002, I don't think it's so much of a 'forcing of opinions' so much as different people in the dev  department just have different approaches sp I wouldn't say it was a personal thing. For instance, personally I tend to think that the paintjobs on the WW1 planes are, by default, too shiny and I always dull 'em down a bit. That however is an option available to us whereas adding shininess isn't on the WW2 machines! 

I'm gonna put another post up in the appropriate place, maybe link to this thread as well. What d'you say?

Dude, go try to make an alpha for the Yak-9 and T. That one is way different than any of the other planes. Like wildly different.

 

I think they should have set values for each type of material that are universal to all the planes. Some planes have more wood parts and fabric covered parts. Some have more metal parts. However, the way aluminum reacts to light should remain constant no matter what the plane is.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Danziger

[Raptorattacker]

2 hours ago, Danziger said:

Some have more metal parts. However, the way aluminum reacts to light should remain constant no matter what the plane is.

Absolutely spot on, SPOT on!!

 

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Raptorattacker

[US41_Winslow]

I think how metallic a surface is controlled by the normal map, which has some limitations.  Unlike the alpha layer for skins, there is only one version for an airplane, so all the skins have the same version.  It therefore makes sense why airplanes like the P-15B that don't have mainly polished metal skins will have a less-metallic looking normal map so that the painted skins don't look weird.  The normal map can be edited though some updates will overwrite it with the default version.

[BraveSirRobin]

On 1/23/2022 at 12:45 PM, Raptorattacker said:

The SIMPLE fact is NOT to have them looking like they were in a carshow, but to have the capability to have that option of reflectiveness so when you're skinning you can tone DOWN from that. Even if you wanted to put a replacement panel somewhere on the plane, it COULD look new. At the moment it doesn't even look like weathered aluminium, let alone polished aluminium. Not only that but if someone were to want to do a polished plane (for whatever reason) then they could (such as attached picture below). To tone down is an option that would be nice to have (and almost compulsory in the case of a genuine-looking working plane) but it's impossible at the moment to tone UP. Like I said, the optimum reflectiveness available at the moment looks like a piece of plywood painted matt grey with water chucked at it!

 

The restored real-life version, polished. It would be nice to HAVE this option, even if we never used it...

 

That must be an old photo.  The current version is not polished.

 

 

[Danziger]

2 hours ago, Miners said:

I think how metallic a surface is controlled by the normal map, which has some limitations.  Unlike the alpha layer for skins, there is only one version for an airplane, so all the skins have the same version.  It therefore makes sense why airplanes like the P-15B that don't have mainly polished metal skins will have a less-metallic looking normal map so that the painted skins don't look weird.  The normal map can be edited though some updates will overwrite it with the default version.

Then what about the P-51D, P-47D-28, and P-38? I have skins for the D with both shiny aluminum and matt paint going on the same skin as well as full painted matt skins and they all look fine. It's still very easy to get a painted look or weathered metal look on the planes with the bare metal effect enabled. Makes no sense at all why it wouldn't be universal. 

[Raptorattacker]

5 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

That must be an old photo.  The current version is not polished.

Old or not, it says. "The restored real-life version, polished". Not, "This plane is polished", a subtle difference in grammar.

This isn't about anything other than in-game options. Certainly not about wether the real plane is polished or not. That's kind of irrelevant here.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Raptorattacker

[Jaws2002]

8 hours ago, Raptorattacker said:

Old or not, it says. "The restored real-life version, polished". Not, "This plane is polished", a subtle difference in grammar.

This isn't about anything other than in-game options. Certainly not about wether the real plane is polished or not. That's kind of irrelevant here.

Exactly! how the plane looks now is irrelevant.

In real world that look can be obtained by polishing the surface. There are Polished P-51B's out there today, even flying, there were polished P-51B's back then.

 That's all that matter. You should be able to recreate that look, just like you are able to recreate the worn out look.

[Sheriff88]

I'm not very good at Alpha Channel editing but get a pretty good shine using a single gray shade set to luminescence of 75-77. A lot depends on dominant bare metal skin color. The more shadows and contrasts the better.

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Sheriff88
add image

[IckyATLAS]

I wonder if it is really possible to have the metal mirror polish with the sims rendering code. 

It may not be only an alpha channel issue here.

[migmadmarine]

On 1/23/2022 at 6:28 AM, szelljr said:

 

Here you go 2 'War time " P51... 

 

 

Note that both of those are Korean war era F-51s, not WWII era, and a large number of post war mustangs seem to have been painted silver for ease of maintenance and to help stretch the lifespan of the aircraft. Wanda was definitely painted, if you look at the panel aft of the exhaust stacks, that panel is always a darker metal than the surrounding aluminum. Also, compare the wings to the fuselage tone, as the wings would be puttied and painted on P-51s, even when the aircraft was "bare metal", and should have a different sheen than the actually bare fuselage. 

 

I personally think the P-51B template has a much more convincing level of shine for a WWII in-service look, as a great many of the preserved NMF birds out there are very heavily polished, but I can understand people wanting to be able to have the option of this result, and am surprised that the Alpha provided doesn't apparently have the range to do so. 

[Hien-0_1*]

Hi Sheriff88!
Wow, two amazing planes !!!?
Are there the two skins for the fan-community???

[Rjel]

17 hours ago, IckyATLAS said:

I wonder if it is really possible to have the metal mirror polish with the sims rendering code. 

It may not be only an alpha channel issue here.

I think so. I used this skin and toned down the weathering and bumped up the alpha some. You can see the squadron code and the nose art reflect in the wing and the no walk mark does the same on the fuselage. It isn't the watery reflection that the game used to feature. Just a nice reflective image that I think looks natural. Not to take anything away from the skins Sheriff posted as those are excellent, it's just that the B especially looks like gray paint more than NMF. I'm hoping that it gets changed at some point. My ultimate dream would be that a some point too, the reflective properties of the game engine will allow the canopy glass or a NMF skin to glint in the distance as happened in real life. A lot of spotting issues would disappear were that to become a feature.

 

Here's a quick video of a P-38 skin I made showing the polished section of the engine cowls. As I understand it, the spots were buffed out so the pilot could confirm the nose wheel being down and locked. I think with a little more work, I can bring that section to a cleaner reflection. But it does show how well the game engine will reflect the NMF against the game world. IMO anyway.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Rjel
Grammer

[migmadmarine]

Do you have mirrors disabled Rjel? That panel is usually treated as a mirror in game, so you can in fact see the nose wheel position if you have the top setting of mirror image quality enabled. 

[Rjel]

21 minutes ago, migmadmarine said:

Do you have mirrors disabled Rjel? That panel is usually treated as a mirror in game, so you can in fact see the nose wheel position if you have the top setting of mirror image quality enabled. 

Nope. I use the mirrors although not the highest setting. I just tried to enhance the effect. I'll have to adjust my setting next time to see if it does look better.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Rjel

[Sheriff88]

14 hours ago, Hien-0_1* said:

Hi Sheriff88!
Wow, two amazing planes !!!?
Are there the two skins for the fan-community???

Glad you like them!
Here you go:

Tawdry Audrey

Class Act

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Sheriff88
Added Links

[PhilthySpud]

Note that the main wing surfaces (excluding flaps, ailerons, root fairings and belly panel) were painted aluminium and thus would not have the same reflectivity as polished Alclad.

[Hien-0_1*]

18 hours ago, Sheriff88 said:

Glad you like them!
Here you go:

Tawdry Audrey

Class Act

 

... will be flown immediately
Sorry, do you hate more such beauties in your hangar????
Thank you very very much?

14 minutes ago, Hien-0_1* said:

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Hien-0_1*

[Rjel]

9 hours ago, PhilthySpud said:

Note that the main wing surfaces (excluding flaps, ailerons, root fairings and belly panel) were painted aluminium and thus would not have the same reflectivity as polished Alclad.

The test of the exercise was to demonstrate the reflectiveness of the game engine as someone wondered earlier if we could simulate a polished skin.
 

As I understand it, when the P-51 left the factory, the wing surfaces and seams were glazed over with some filler then painted. I’ve read someplace (tho I don’t remember where) that those surfaces were hard to maintain. Regardless, my personal preference is to lean toward a shinier finish. I really only skin to please myself but if anyone else likes what I do then I just look at that as a bonus. 

[Sheriff88]

21 hours ago, Hien-0_1* said:

Sorry, do you hate more such beauties in your hangar????
Thank you very very much?

Like these?

Swing Time

99th Welcome Back

New Luftwaffe