Force feedback flight stick?

[savagebeest]

Is there a force feedback flight stick? Does such a thing exist? I dug around and what I learned is that there used to be. Is there one available in the market?

[40plus]

From what I've read it's either an old Microsoft stick off of ebay or some very expensive boutique product. There is no current consumer grade FFB stick on the market

 

For reference:

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by 40plus

[reve_etrange]

Used Microsoft ones look readily available on eBay for well under $100, and are said to be extremely robust. I haven't found any real comprehensive review for how the FFB2 feels in Il2:GB, though, which is the main thing holding me back from buying one to try out. Realistic stick forces would be very interesting, but much less so a glorified rumble pack.

[Noisemaker]

My Saitek Cyborg Evo Force joystick works pretty much every couple of updates, then crashes the game after the next.  Completely random.  It's always hit or miss.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Noisemaker
Spelling.

[DragonDaddy]

I have been using a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 Joystick in IL2 for about 5 years. I have my original one (about 30+ years old) and a backup I bought from eBay. They both work perfectly in the sim and add an extra level of immersion. I also use a Buttkicker with Andre’s SimShaker software. I never fly without them. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by DragonDaddy
Typo

[reve_etrange]

@DragonDaddy A couple questions: do the forces feel different between aircraft? Do they seem reasonably altered by speed and AoA (e.g. can you sense the speed of the aircraft to some extent through the stick)? Do you feel they compensate for the short stick length, or ameliorate the need for aggressive sensitivity curves?

 

Thank you for your thoughts!

[J2_Bidu]

I have two used MSFFB2 that I bought real cheap. Both feel very weird, they shake oddly. I'm still not sure if that's what is to be expected. It's not the kind of pressure I expected from a stick under G forces, etc. Maybe they don't work right, or my setup is screwed, or my expectations are wrong. But they exhibit the same behavior, so it's hard to believe they're both damaged the same way. So I use a Warthog instead - it's sturdy and does have a lot more buttons.

[[CPT]Crunch]

Used them in the past, logitechs monstrosity was much better than the sidewinder, it didn't have that slop and mush, with strong motor pull via cable.  Always disliked the effects being transmitted so strongly into the gunnery solution while firing guns.  I'll use a buttkicker any day, and do, but nothing better try taking over my stick at critical phases of flight.  Shakers and a quality stick with a nice lengthy extension are the ticket.  Put the feedback in your chair and the seat of your pants where it really does the most good, and get the best quality stick you can muster.

[DD_Arthur]

I’ve got three MSFFB2’s. They are all around twenty years old.

 

It’s an extremely robust design and still the best ffb stick you can get your hands on.

 

Resist the temptation to pay silly money on EBay. 

 

Nothing superior to them has been made since.

 

The ffb effect in game is very good but the forces could do with some enhancement.

 

Somewhere on these boards is a useful thread about what changes to make in the startup/config file of the game to improve ffb effects.

 

Bidu; is your stick plugged into a USB3 port or a non-powered USB hub?

MSFFB2 much prefers either a USB2 port on the motherboard or - I think - a powered USB3 hub.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

[savagebeest]

1 hour ago, DragonDaddy said:

I have been using a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 Joystick in IL2 for about 5 years. I have my original one (about 30+ years old) and a backup I bought from eBay. They both work perfectly in the sim and add an extra level of immersion. I also use a Buttkicker with Andre’s SimShaker software. I never fly without them. 

I just installed and currently tuning my bkg2 shaker. I'm curious about the wings software. I use vr so I have to use voicemeter. I wonder if I can get away just using Andre's simshaker without voicemeter. 

 

Back on the flight stick, did ww2 pilots experience feedback on their controls? 

[J2_Bidu]

25 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

Bidu; is your stick plugged into a USB3 port or a non-powered USB hub?

MSFFB2 much prefers either a USB2 port on the motherboard or - I think - a powered USB3 hub.

 

Uh, haven't used them in a good while. Mist likely I had them on my powered USB2 hub, but the joysticks themselves are powered autonomously besides (i.e. they have a power chord). So I imagine power shouldnt be the problem?

[Ala13_UnopaUno_VR]

G940 LOGITECH +9 year used, it is perfect, Really immersive FFB+ simshaker jetpad. 

 

[DD_Arthur]

3 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

Uh, haven't used them in a good while. Mist likely I had them on my powered USB2 hub, but the joysticks themselves are powered autonomously besides (i.e. they have a power chord). So I imagine power shouldnt be the problem?

 

It’s not a question of power but of USB connectivity.

They don’t seem to like powered USB2 hubs.

 I don’t know but I can guess it’s something to do with Microsoft’s drivers; they were last updated about twenty years ago too?

[ACG_Bobo]

I've used a couple different FFB sticks but only the MSFF2 in BoX.  The stick is very robust, the feel is as good as it gets and offers a lot of info on what your aircraft is doing and what it's about to do.  My only bitch would be the lack of buttons and whistles.  But I love it and am glad I have a couple stashed away.
I found that it needed the powered USB to work properly, I had lots of weirdness in the game in general because of it.  Once I got the USB port, everything has been sweet.
I've had FFB sticks since they first came out and can't really imagine playing any flight sim without FFB.

Edited January 6, 2022 by III./SG77-K_Bobo

[RAAF492SQNOz_Steve]

2 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

<Snip>

 

Somewhere on these boards is a useful thread about what changes to make in the startup/config file of the game to improve ffb effects.

 

<Snip>

 

 

 

 

Was this it?

 

 

This may be worth a look as well..............

https://steamcommunity.com/app/307960/discussions/0/1742227264196394937/

Edited January 6, 2022 by RAAF492SQNOz_Steve
Added Steam topic link

[justin_z3r0]

4 hours ago, reve_etrange said:

Used Microsoft ones look readily available on eBay for well under $100, and are said to be extremely robust. I haven't found any real comprehensive review for how the FFB2 feels in Il2:GB, though, which is the main thing holding me back from buying one to try out. Realistic stick forces would be very interesting, but much less so a glorified rumble pack.

I only use MSFFB2 these days and its awesome - cant imagine using anything else now. Theres enough buttons on it for WWII too. I have a spare for just in case - I like it that much. Works great

I am a pilot as well and can say it does feel similar to the real thing - not just rumble...

3 hours ago, reve_etrange said:

@DragonDaddy A couple questions: do the forces feel different between aircraft? Do they seem reasonably altered by speed and AoA (e.g. can you sense the speed of the aircraft to some extent through the stick)? Do you feel they compensate for the short stick length, or ameliorate the need for aggressive sensitivity curves?

 

Thank you for your thoughts!

Yes - The MSFFB feels different between different aircraft.

[savagebeest]

So you actually feel the stick moving? I'm really thinking of picking one up

[ACG_Bobo]

38 minutes ago, savagebeest said:

So you actually feel the stick moving?

Oh yes very much so.  And it's not disappointing.

[[CPT]Crunch]

5 hours ago, savagebeest said:

I just installed and currently tuning my bkg2 shaker. I'm curious about the wings software. I use vr so I have to use voicemeter. I wonder if I can get away just using Andre's simshaker without voicemeter. 

 

Back on the flight stick, did ww2 pilots experience feedback on their controls? 

If you fly VR you can set a secondary output in the steamVR settings, works fine without the banana, just get a cheap USB sound card to plug it into, a good one like a sound blaster shouldn't cost but $20 some bucks.  No problems, I even use a splitter to plug a headset into the USB sound to listen when taking the VR headset off, no need to turn the HMD off to use it. 

[DD_Arthur]

5 hours ago, RAAF492SQNOz_Steve said:

Was this it?

 

That’s the one ?

[KevPBur]

Just for a little variety I have a Logitech Force 3d pro from about 20 years ago when I used to fly CFS2 and the original IL2. Still works great although some of the less important buttons are not working. I turned off the shaker in the game settings. I con't comment on how realistic it is but it generally works well with a feeling of speed as the controls get heavier with increased speed and very light before a stall depending on aircraft type.

It does occassionally get stuck shaking after I've taken some hits which won't stop even after I've crashed or ended the current mission/flight. Unpluggimg the power from the stick for a moment fixes it.

[Noisemaker]

25 minutes ago, KevPBur said:

Just for a little variety I have a Logitech Force 3d pro from about 20 years ago when I used to fly CFS2 and the original IL2. Still works great although some of the less important buttons are not working. I turned off the shaker in the game settings. I con't comment on how realistic it is but it generally works well with a feeling of speed as the controls get heavier with increased speed and very light before a stall depending on aircraft type.

It does occassionally get stuck shaking after I've taken some hits which won't stop even after I've crashed or ended the current mission/flight. Unpluggimg the power from the stick for a moment fixes it.

Funny, that's the stick I used before I bought the Saitek and I found that in IL2 it was always mushy, and didn't five proper force feedback.

[KevPBur]

59 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

Funny, that's the stick I used before I bought the Saitek and I found that in IL2 it was always mushy, and didn't five proper force feedback.

I've never tried any other stick so although I think it feels ok maybe if I got a different one I'd see the errors of my way, ignorance is bliss.

I did start looking when I got back into IL2 last year but they are so expensive at the moment so the vintage one will have to do for now whilst flying our vintage planes ? How precise/mushy were WWII planes, especially the early ones that are my preferance?

 

[DragonDaddy]

16 hours ago, reve_etrange said:

@DragonDaddy A couple questions: do the forces feel different between aircraft? Do they seem reasonably altered by speed and AoA (e.g. can you sense the speed of the aircraft to some extent through the stick)? Do you feel they compensate for the short stick length, or ameliorate the need for aggressive sensitivity curves?

 

Thank you for your thoughts!

To answer your questions: It does feel slightly different between fighters and heavier aircraft. I haven't noticed a significant difference fighter-to-fighter. I wouldn't say I can sense the speed but the feedback varies when the plane slows or increases speed significantly.  The response changes when you turn, change attitude, begin to stall or crash. There is also feedback for guns. I don't use any curves with this stick and it is accurate and stable when shooting.

 

What it feels like to me: The feedback is consistent. It doesn't change wildly from no-feedback to heavy-feedback. There is no wobble or weird, unnatural feelings. I've never flown any type of plane IRL but the response I get from this stick feels natural. I feel like I am flying an aircraft.

 

Why I fly with this stick: I own a VKB Gladiator and a T-16000 that I no longer use. When using them I feel like I'm sitting at my desk playing a video game. There is no response coming back to me and it feels sterile. The Microsoft stick fools my senses into believing that the plane and its weapons are physically responding to my actions. I feel like I'm flying, shooting and bombing.

 

SimShaker and ButtKicker: Andre has done an excellent job with his SimShaker software. I am a big fan and highly recommend it. Coupled with the ButtKicker I get many different types of feedback and vibrations that add an incredible amount of immersion. If I should ever start up the sim without these tools it is immediately noticed and I do a full restart with these systems engaged.

 

Not everyone says they get the same results with the MSFF stick: I have never had to install any drivers, recalibrate or make any special adjustments in order to use this stick.

I did make a change to one of the game files to increase the feedback slightly and the difference is quite apparent. If you do a little digging on the forum you will find how to make this simple file modification. Not sure why some users claim to have setup problems or think the feel is unnatural. There could be a number of factors effecting their enjoyment of this stick. Luckily, it works for me without issue.

 

I hope this helps and I would be glad to answer any other questions.

[SharpeXB]

I tried the Logitech G940 years ago but didn’t like the effect and returned it. The FFB felt like stirring a bucket of rocks with a stick since the force was provided by gears, you could feel the gears and there was a sloppy dead zone . It interfered with aiming so much it was detrimental. In order for FFB to work really well in flight controls it would have to be smooth and belt driven like the high quality racing wheels. But that would be $$$ since it would have two powered axes as compared to one on a wheel. Adding force feedback to already expensive flight controllers is probably not marketable. But if Fanatec wants to make flight gear someday, call me…

[[CPT]Crunch]

https://www.ebay.com/p/141195789

 

Those were good sticks as far as FFB, the old Logitech Wingman Force, strong motors and cable pull driven.  The problem was they're simply massive, WTH are you going to put one to use it? 

 

That stick never went limp and flopped over.  You had to tone some of the effects down, it was a tiger to fight some of time, the motors weren't going to let you off that easy, and the cables were solid.

[Quax]

On 1/6/2022 at 1:04 AM, J2_Bidu said:

 

Uh, haven't used them in a good while. Mist likely I had them on my powered USB2 hub, but the joysticks themselves are powered autonomously besides (i.e. they have a power chord). So I imagine power shouldnt be the problem?

 

Try to activate them. Either you change the USB plug (just try different solutions), or you were just unlucky with your first tests. If you get shaking, a reset may help. If one axis has no power, or both are on full power, I have to reset it as well. (Escape - Settings - Input Devise - Accept). Sometimes several resets in a row are necessary.

The advantage af a FFB stick is the aerodynamic neutral point, which has been perfectly modelled in this sim.

[ITAF_Rani]

On 1/6/2022 at 5:46 PM, DragonDaddy said:

To answer your questions: It does feel slightly different between fighters and heavier aircraft. I haven't noticed a significant difference fighter-to-fighter. I wouldn't say I can sense the speed but the feedback varies when the plane slows or increases speed significantly.  The response changes when you turn, change attitude, begin to stall or crash. There is also feedback for guns. I don't use any curves with this stick and it is accurate and stable when shooting.

 

What it feels like to me: The feedback is consistent. It doesn't change wildly from no-feedback to heavy-feedback. There is no wobble or weird, unnatural feelings. I've never flown any type of plane IRL but the response I get from this stick feels natural. I feel like I am flying an aircraft.

 

Why I fly with this stick: I own a VKB Gladiator and a T-16000 that I no longer use. When using them I feel like I'm sitting at my desk playing a video game. There is no response coming back to me and it feels sterile. The Microsoft stick fools my senses into believing that the plane and its weapons are physically responding to my actions. I feel like I'm flying, shooting and bombing.

 

SimShaker and ButtKicker: Andre has done an excellent job with his SimShaker software. I am a big fan and highly recommend it. Coupled with the ButtKicker I get many different types of feedback and vibrations that add an incredible amount of immersion. If I should ever start up the sim without these tools it is immediately noticed and I do a full restart with these systems engaged.

 

Not everyone says they get the same results with the MSFF stick: I have never had to install any drivers, recalibrate or make any special adjustments in order to use this stick.

I did make a change to one of the game files to increase the feedback slightly and the difference is quite apparent. If you do a little digging on the forum you will find how to make this simple file modification. Not sure why some users claim to have setup problems or think the feel is unnatural. There could be a number of factors effecting their enjoyment of this stick. Luckily, it works for me without issue.

 

I hope this helps and I would be glad to answer any other questions.

MS ffb 2, for me  still the best stick to play IL2 GB...tempted many time to switch to more modern, but it still works great...

The great thing for example you can feel the plane loosing stability when close to the stall and it helps a lot in tight dogfight...

Edited January 9, 2022 by ITAF_Rani

[=LD=Bulldog*]

I have two MSFFB2 sticks and cannot imagine going back to simming without one and the force feedback is so detailed and precise. I nearly got a Warthog but stuck with the MSFFB2s: they're that good. You can also try Facebook Marketplace.

 

Bulldog

[J2_Bidu]

1 hour ago, 76SQN-Bulldog said:

I have two MSFFB2 sticks and cannot imagine going back to simming without one and the force feedback is so detailed and precise. I nearly got a Warthog but stuck with the MSFFB2s: they're that good.

 

This is probably why you can fly the SE5a properly, while I can't.

[=LD=Bulldog*]

Hey Bidu,

 

I would keep trying various ports with your stick. Mine just plugs in and off she goes. They're also built to last.

 

Am happy to meet up one evening on comms and go through the Se5A with the various settimgs, trims, etc. Just let me know.

 

Bulldog

[reve_etrange]

I bought one on eBay, which arrived today ($77 shipped). I'm still getting used to it, but it definitely adds another level of immersion through the feeling of fighting the stick and I imagine it will become my primary stick. Thanks @DragonDaddy, @III./SG77-K_Bobo, @justin_z3r0 especially for your specific comments, which convinced me it was worth a try!

 

Do any of you FFB2 users here do anything about the hand sensor? I'm considering taping it so I can stretch my hand while holding the stick, but I'm afraid of the motors slamming it around if I let go completely.

[Hoots]

It's a great stick. the sensor on mine has been taped for about 6 years. No idea if it's a good or bad idea though.

[DragonDaddy]

7 hours ago, reve_etrange said:

Do any of you FFB2 users here do anything about the hand sensor? I'm considering taping it so I can stretch my hand while holding the stick, but I'm afraid of the motors slamming it around if I let go completely.

When I take my hand off the stick it loses the feedback only. No slamming motors and no need for tape, based on my experience. 

[Cynic_Al]

On 1/6/2022 at 12:00 AM, savagebeest said:

did ww2 pilots experience feedback on their controls?

 

Any aerodynamic controls using direct linkages must provide feedback to the pilot.

 

[Quax]

On 1/10/2022 at 3:11 PM, J2_Bidu said:

 

This is probably why you can fly the SE5a properly, while I can't.

 

The aerodynamic neutral point is far of the middle in the SE5. Can´t feel right without a FFB stick.

[justin_z3r0]

2 hours ago, DragonDaddy said:

When I take my hand off the stick it loses the feedback only. No slamming motors and no need for tape, based on my experience. 

Same. I don't tape mine.  Just loses feedback momentarily while you let go

 

 

9 hours ago, reve_etrange said:

I bought one on eBay, which arrived today ($77 shipped). I'm still getting used to it, but it definitely adds another level of immersion through the feeling of fighting the stick and I imagine it will become my primary stick. Thanks @DragonDaddy, @III./SG77-K_Bobo, @justin_z3r0 especially for your specific comments, which convinced me it was worth a try!

 

Do any of you FFB2 users here do anything about the hand sensor? I'm considering taping it so I can stretch my hand while holding the stick, but I'm afraid of the motors slamming it around if I let go completely.

Glad to hear. That's a reasonable price I'd say. 

I think you'll enjoy it. 

 

 

[Hoots]

1 hour ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

Any aerodynamic controls using direct linkages must provide feedback to the pilot.

 

At 100 knots in a glider there is a lot of feedback. The other thing to think about is when you put your hand out of a car window, same concept. 

[J2_Bidu]

On 1/10/2022 at 4:21 PM, 76SQN-Bulldog said:

Hey Bidu,

 

I would keep trying various ports with your stick. Mine just plugs in and off she goes. They're also built to last.

 

Am happy to meet up one evening on comms and go through the Se5A with the various settimgs, trims, etc. Just let me know.

 

Bulldog

 

Ha! I bought a new USB 2.0 powered hub and thar she blows!

 

I still feel it may act a bit erratic. Like sometimes the stifness drops instantly and it is completely flaccid for an instant / position, until it picks up again (as I instantly repented having written this). Is neutral supposed to feel like that? Maybe I need to fiddle with those configuration settings for maximum effect.

Edited January 12, 2022 by J2_Bidu

[=LD=Bulldog*]

Bidu,

 

Yes, that was probably the issue. It may be a case of playing with it but yes, there are times where there is no tension whatsoever (as in level flight) and then she really comes into her own. Why not fly a solo offline to take-off and feel the bumps and then at altitude, practice dives and climbing as well as landing? If she is working well, you'll know it. And yes, there are times where you cannot feel much at all, especially level flight; however, go in a very steep dive and climb. You'll know it. It has been a lifesaver in my Bf 109 G2 at high-speed dives and it is hard to pull back on the stick. Amazing. 

 

From what I know, the stick corrects itself - perhaps the flaccid feel you have.

 

As before, am very happy to discuss the Se5A with you on Discord. Also, I can send you the technical data on how to get the best out of her. 

 

S!

 

Bulldog

 

 

Try stalls, too. She goes mental.