AAA mod

[Stonehouse]

I had a spare 30 mins while dinner cooks, so I decided to get the uploads out of the way as the rest of the week is going to be flat out. See first post. Hopefully I've made no goofs in packing things up.

[creamersdream]

What are the two attack range files for? Do I need them for the AAA mod to work? 

Edited August 14, 2023 by creamersdream

[Stonehouse]

45 minutes ago, creamersdream said:

What are the two attack range files for? Do I need them for the AAA mod to work? 

 

No. They are optional as is the effects mod.

 

Missions usually have AAA set as inactive until an enemy comes within a radius defined on a trigger. At this point they spawn/activate. Attached to the trigger is another piece of game logic that defines an attack radius for the AAA. So, if that attack radius is less than the max effective range of the AAA then the AAA will not fire at targets outside the attack radius. eg a Flak37/88 has an effective range of about 10000m against an aerial target. If the attack radius is set to say 5000 m then the Flak 37 will not fire at targets further than 5000m. 

 

Typically, this is done for performance reasons but unfortunately it tends to mean that because the large guns have a slow rotation speed, they will not be able to turn quickly enough to engage at all as they don't spawn until the target is already too close. The average activation range is usually about 5000 or 6000m, ditto the attack range. If the target aircraft is doing 600 kph or 160ish m/s and the gun activates and is pointing away it has to turn to fire. The aircraft will cross the 5000m in about 30 secs. Large guns rotate at something like 9 deg per sec. So, it will take about 20 secs to bring the barrel to bear. It may fire 2 or 3 shots as the aircraft approaches but then need to rotate again (can't shoot and change the elevation/bearing) so it may only get another 2 or 3 shots before the aircraft moves out of the attack range. In real life aircraft were often detected by various means much further out and the AAA was already pointing in roughly the right direction. 

 

The two attack range mods alter the activation and attack ranges so the guns spawn earlier and allow them time to track a target and get to shoot out to their effective range. One mod does this for all AQMB and QMB and career missions. The other does it for the Easy Mission Generator aka EMG. Midnight for me so goodnight and hope the mod works well for you.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

Haven't had time to check but my expectation is the main AAA mod is ok post 5.106, however the AQMB/career and EMG and heavy AAA effects mods could need an update. Hopefully have time to review and do updates over the next 3 or 4 days. 

[Stonehouse]

Confirmed that the main AAA mod (AAAmod) is fine post 5.106.

Confirmed that the AAA Heavy Flak effects mod is fine post 5.106.

 

WIP on the other sub/optional AAA related mods

Edited September 23, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

On 9/23/2023 at 3:08 PM, Stonehouse said:

Confirmed that the main AAA mod (AAAmod) is fine post 5.106.

Confirmed that the AAA Heavy Flak effects mod is fine post 5.106.

 

WIP on the other sub/optional AAA related mods

 

Confirm no changes required to the AQMB_QMB and career AAA attack range mod post 5.106

EMG attack range mod review is WIP

[Stonehouse]

On 9/25/2023 at 5:23 PM, Stonehouse said:

 

Confirm no changes required to the AQMB_QMB and career AAA attack range mod post 5.106

EMG attack range mod review is WIP

 

Difficult to tell whether the generic template mission had been updated so in the end I just redid the updates for the EMG AAA Attack range mod. New version in first post.

 

For what it is worth, when time permits I'm updating specific templates (will focus on Normandy and Rhineland for starters) for AAA with a custom generic template with the aim that more realistic unit compositions near objectives are encountered. If it goes well and people are interested I will post up the results. 

[Stonehouse]

FYI no update required for EMG AAA Attack range with the latest update from EMG v78 to EMG v78.1 (minor bug fix update in the last 24 hrs)

[Mtnbiker1998]

Appreciate your efforts to keep your mods updated Stonehouse, even just the "Mod is good to go in the latest update" messages really are appreciated.

[RedeyeStorm]

@Stonehouse, I have been using your mod extensively in SP. Especially in combination with the range mod it has made AAA fire impressive and dangerous. 
 

As a player I can evade it but the AI as we know basically ignores AAA and get hammered because all the AAA focus on one plane and keeps shooting at it until destroyed or out of range. I was wondering if it would be possible to increase the dispersion of the AAA both heavy and medium, light? 
 

Right now you are sure to loose at least half your flight all the time. But it does look awesome.

 

RedeyeStorm.

[Stonehouse]

Probably - it may be that I end up having to have a vanilla version and a range mod version..........was really hoping not to but it may end up that way.

 

It may take a little while though as I'm tied up removing 70 odd sq m of clay pavers around a pool area by hand (ie bolster and sledge hammer) so as not to damage the pool tiles. Some are attached with sand and cement mix (not so bad) and others (lots) are solidly mortared down - painfully slow and tiring work. Tried an electric demo hammer and broke half a dozen water line tiles within 5 mins when one of the edge pavers broke so went back to doing it the hard way as I only have a limited number of spare tiles and I can't get more as they are old.

 

@RedeyeStorm Can you advise what skill level the AAA was set to?

Edited October 16, 2023 by Stonehouse

[jollyjack]

Stonehouse, again thanks for all your AAA works sofar, and just found the newer versions ....

[RedeyeStorm]

@Stonehouse, I wish you luck. It sounds like awfull work.

 

To your question, it in career so I believe that is always easy, but I fly my campaigns at easy anyway. Less Terminator squads and I feel more randomness with encounters.

[Stonehouse]

Other than addressing the dispersion side of things (as per RedeyeStorm's posts above) I'm not sure whether today's patch = changes to the main mod or optional ones. I suspect that the main AAA mod and the Heavy AAA effects will be fine but that the attack range mods may need updating. Will have to investigate as soon as I can get some spare time.

 

PS - actually as well as the dispersion review, there are two changes to the main mod in the pipeline. Research reveals that the M1A1 AA gun fires about twice as fast as it should and that the range for the Bofors is overstated in vanilla. So, these two tweaks will be in the next version.... which may address some of RedeyeStorm's issues as the range change for the Bofors is quite significant. Both have been reported to the devs for them to confirm and fix if they agree with my findings. May also be able to reduce the changes required in the Career and AQMB attack range mod as devs have increased the activation trigger ranges.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

On 10/26/2023 at 12:11 PM, Stonehouse said:

Other than addressing the dispersion side of things (as per RedeyeStorm's posts above) I'm not sure whether today's patch = changes to the main mod or optional ones. I suspect that the main AAA mod and the Heavy AAA effects will be fine but that the attack range mods may need updating. Will have to investigate as soon as I can get some spare time.

 

PS - actually as well as the dispersion review, there are two changes to the main mod in the pipeline. Research reveals that the M1A1 AA gun fires about twice as fast as it should and that the range for the Bofors is overstated in vanilla. So, these two tweaks will be in the next version.... which may address some of RedeyeStorm's issues as the range change for the Bofors is quite significant. Both have been reported to the devs for them to confirm and fix if they agree with my findings. May also be able to reduce the changes required in the Career and AQMB attack range mod as devs have increased the activation trigger ranges.

 

OK - I have uploaded a new version that addresses some issues in the M1A1, QF3.7 and Bofors L/60 based on US and UK references I've found recently. I found no specific 5.107 issues for the AAAmod.

 

I still have to double check the Heavy AAA effects mod but doubt that will take long and will then start looking at the optional EMG and career/AQMB attack range mods for 5.107 things to update and investigating the possibility of a custom version of the AAA mod that looks at reducing AA efficacy again for use with the attack range mods. As mentioned, I'm lacking spare time at present so likely this may take a while. 

 

 

@RedeyeStorm please try the new version and see if the changes to the Bofors etc makes any difference to your experience and issues you raised recently and report back if it reduces the need for tweaking accuracy/dispersion again. Thanks

 

As a general FYI please note that I believe that 5.107 has increased at least some instances of the activation trigger range for career and AQMB so you may notice heavy AAA firing more often than before even when not running the attack range mods. This is because allowing HAA to spawn earlier gives them a chance to turn to face the incoming aircraft before they arrive overhead. This is part of what the attack range mods do.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Stonehouse

[RedeyeStorm]

I’ll give it a go and report.

[Stonehouse]

17 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

I still have to double check the Heavy AAA effects mod but doubt that will take long and will then start looking at the optional EMG and career/AQMB attack range mods for 5.107 things to update and investigating the possibility of a custom version of the AAA mod that looks at reducing AA efficacy again for use with the attack range mods. As mentioned, I'm lacking spare time at present so likely this may take a while. 

 

Both Heavy AAA effects mod and EMG attack range mod are fine for 5.107 and EMGv79 (no changes to generic template).

 

Moving onto career/AQMB attack range mod as time permits.

[Stonehouse]

On 10/31/2023 at 10:38 AM, Stonehouse said:

Moving onto career/AQMB attack range mod as time permits.

 

Wasn't as bad as I thought it would be considering all the career changes in 5.107. Updated version of the AQMB_QMB and career AAA attack range in first post 

 

Some notes:

• Activation range for AAA and searchlights are now 10000m in this mod and stock (for at least HAA). As previously mentioned, this will mean that likely you experience more HAA fire in QMB and career even if not running this mod and just using stock. 
• Stock deactivation range for HAA (and maybe LAA) is 10500m whereas the mod was 11500m - I've left it as this for now to save the work of changing a very large number of files. Likely will essentially redo this work in an upcoming version so that activation and deactivation match stock unless I feel stock is less than it should be as this will reduce maintenance for me.
• Attack range for stock is still much less than effective HAA range so I have left the mod with a 10000m MCU attack range and let the guns value of AttackDistanceTrgAir control when the guns stop firing. As previously this may mean the AA gun ceases to fire before the MCU attack range if that max range is less than 10000m (e.g. QF3.7 per AAA mod) or ceases firing when 10000m is reached as limited by the MCU (e.g. M1A1 stock and mod)
• There are extra searchlight groups added for 5.107 for runways and the using flares to fool enemy AAA mechanic in night missions..........I've left these alone as far as I am aware but have little time to thoroughly test so if you see something funky happening in these situations please report back.

 

Next WIP is looking at a version of the AAA mod that has reduced efficacy for use with the AQMB_QMB and career attack range mod and likely the custom Normandy and Rhineland EMG templates I'm hoping to eventually produce. Although I am kind of hoping RedeyeStorm will report back that it isn't needed with the changes made to Allied AA guns in the latest AAA mod. Another alternative is to change the AAA mod to use practical ROF instead of cyclic as 90% of the time this is a slower ROF.

 

Potentially the 5.107 changes to activation may make people want the main version of the AAA mod watered down some more in any case.

 

Anyway, once again not sure of any eta for the custom version of the AAA mod.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Stonehouse

[RedeyeStorm]

Unfortunately I am also a bit pressed for time and some weird mission issues. Like normal day mission at night. Flying in Moscow for mother Russia in the Li2 and getting a mission description that indicates that I am flying in support of the 6th army in Stalingrad. Baffling.

[JG4_Moltke1871]

Hi @Stonehouse, I still have installed your beta version from summer 2023. If I remember right it reduced the close and mid range AA accuracy? I would prefer that version because the high aggressive AA is often simply too much for the ai.

Sorry if I didn't find the time to test your mods in detail, unfortunately we all suffer limited flight time and more WW1 Servers like Knights of the Sky or Ad Astra together with the good old Flugpark bring me back to spend the most time I have in online gameplay ?

[Stonehouse]

The beta became the release version so you shouldn't be gaining anything by using the beta. Do you also use the QMB & career attack range mod or just the AAA mod by itself?

 

Sounds like there is still a need to detune AAA further at least on low skill (which is what career uses definitely and QMB (*I think*)).

 

Do you think using practical rate of fire would fix the issue? Cyclic ROF is often 30%-50% more than practical ROF on light AAA. Cyclic is what IL2 uses but I think I have enough data to change at least 75% of the AAA to practical ROF. Maybe more.

 

eg Bofors L60 has a cyclic ROF of 120 but the practical ROF is only 60. Flak 38/20mm has theoretical/cyclic ROF of between 420-480 rounds (if I remember correctly IL2 uses the average) the practical ROF is 180-220. 

 

So would the reduction in fire density in light AAA fix the issue do you think?

 

Heavy AAA has less difference usually between cyclic and practical but even there it might be a few rounds less per min on most guns.

 

48 minutes ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

I still have installed your beta version from summer 2023.

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Stonehouse

[JG4_Moltke1871]

9 minutes ago, Stonehouse said:

The beta became the release version so you shouldn't be gaining anything by using the beta. Do you also use the QMB & career attack range mod or just the AAA mod by itself?

 

Sounds like there is still a need to detune AAA further at least on low skill (which is what career uses definitely and QMB (*I think*)).

 

Do you think using practical rate of fire would fix the issue? Cyclic ROF is often 30%-50% more than practical ROF on light AAA. Cyclic is what IL2 uses but I think I have enough data to change at least 75% of the AAA to practical ROF. Maybe more.

 

eg Bofors L60 has a cyclic ROF of 120 but the practical ROF is only 60. Flak 38/20mm has theoretical/cyclic ROF of between 420-480 rounds (if I remember correctly IL2 uses the average) the practical ROF is 180-220. 

 

So would the reduction in fire density in light AAA fix the issue do you think?

 

Heavy AAA has less difference usually between cyclic and practical but even there it might be a few rounds less per min on most guns.

 

 

Ah ok, than I will replace the beta with the current main version. So far I use the AAA mod only without the career attack range mode because the high alt AAA is dangerous enough. The attack range mod will increase their range, right?

Most of my offline sorties were WW1 high alt attacks. About the mid range AA is a good question, a bit reduced fire rate maybe can help.

[Stonehouse]

42 minutes ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

offline sorties were WW1 high alt attacks

Ok my misunderstanding.......I thought you meant WW2 AAA.......is there still an issue with WW1 heavy AAA?

 

Attack range mod activates the AAA earlier (although I think stock is now the same) and allows the guns to fire (I give them a MCU attack range of 10000m - some guns have max range < 10000m so fire to their max and others have > 10000m so fire to 10000m) out to their (mostly) real range rather than limiting them to an small range via the MCU attack range value (which is what stock does. Often the guns are limited to 2500 or 5000m regardless of their real range)

[JG4_Moltke1871]

1 hour ago, Stonehouse said:

Ok my misunderstanding.......I thought you meant WW2 AAA.......is there still an issue with WW1 heavy AAA?

 

Attack range mod activates the AAA earlier (although I think stock is now the same) and allows the guns to fire (I give them a MCU attack range of 10000m - some guns have max range < 10000m so fire to their max and others have > 10000m so fire to 10000m) out to their (mostly) real range rather than limiting them to an small range via the MCU attack range value (which is what stock does. Often the guns are limited to 2500 or 5000m regardless of their real range)

So fat I see no problem with AAA in WW1 or WW2, I enjoy their danger.

 I see a problem more with mid range AAA because they rape the AI squad mates for usual.

But also please notice that the time I spend in single player was low the last month, so some experience reports of other players would be helpful.

[Stonehouse]

9 hours ago, JG4_Moltke1871 said:

problem more with mid range AAA

Ok so light AAA is the issue. 

 

@RedeyeStorm

Guessing that LAA is also the issue for you as well. Is that correct? 

 

 

 

On a different note, while mucking around with the WIP AAA mod I discovered that some naval HAA and one of the ground based HAA used a different epl file to create the visual image of the flak burst. So, I've added these shell types to the mod. Note no change to anything else than the visual representation of the explosion, all other aspects such as damage remain stock. All I have done is point them at the epl file I want to use so the correct modded efx files are used to generate the visual image in game. So, a beach head patrol QMB mission now looks much better (IMO) for instance when the naval HAA flak explodes in the air.

 

See new version of AAA Heavy flak effects in first post.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Stonehouse

[RedeyeStorm]

Hi @Stonehouse, I have no issues with the heavy long range AAA. It usually targets the escort fighters (an issue but not yours to solve). It is the rapid fire guns that are my concern. They give the impression to be radar guided because if one hits you get hit by a stream of shells that demolish your plane. It just feels to much and especially for the AI who do not manoeuvre at all.

[Stonehouse]

3 hours ago, RedeyeStorm said:

It is the rapid fire guns that are my concern.

Ok all good.

 

First beta pass below. This is the AAA mod converted as best I can to use practical ROF instead of cyclic ROF. 

Some notes:

• Had trouble finding WW1 info so tended to leave this stuff alone. I did find a couple of naval AAA cases where I was using the WW2 bot so switched these to WW1.
• Had issues with some naval AAA eg B24 AA gun. Not sure if it is WW1 or not.
• Bren guns were using German 7.92 ammo instead of English 7.7 (0.303 = 7.69mm approx) - fixed this across all Bren gun AA cases
• Had trouble working out a M2 practical ROF because all the notes I can find talk about an initial long burst (eg 75 rounds) followed by a long pause and then a much lower ROF with pauses in between smaller bursts. None of the M2s I can see in game are water cooled (often they were on ships and the gunners were trained to fire continuously and walk the fire onto the target aircraft) and are modelled as the std infantry gun with a cyclic ROF of 550 rpm. I've ended putting 150 rpm as the M2 practical ROF, but I actually think it was more probably 40-60 rpm. If some can confirm the practical M2 ROF it would be really helpful. Note these do not appear to be M2HBs but just std 1940s M2s.
• Pretty much everything AAA is now practical ROF - land or sea. Generally, this is a much lower ROF than cyclic/theoretical ROF. Testing using the AQMB Allied Beach head patrol mission it appears to make quite a difference to volume of AA fire so it may address everyone's concerns without further reduction in efficacy. If testing says otherwise, then I will go on and look at error and dispersion.

AAAmod - ROF beta03nov.zip

Edited November 3, 2023 by Stonehouse

[RedeyeStorm]

Hey @Stonehouse,

 

I have been running some AQMB missions flying Me410's on Normandy. Airfield attack. That went quit good. I will try out your Beta03 and report.

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

So fari I've tried one career mission with the Beta03 and it looks quite good - there was a serious volume of FLAK but it was survivable even for AI - it works also quite well in FLAK test mission. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Rudolph

[RedeyeStorm]

I agree, but @Rudolph what is the flak test mission and where can I find it?

[vonGraf]

I played four PWCG fighter missions yesterday after a longer break and like how the Flak is working now. The flights were on Russian maps and the AA was Soviet.

Even in lower altitudes (1500 meters) the heavy Flak was survivable, but still accurate enough to be a threat; you have to change your course constantly and fly fast near a train station or airfield that's defended by them. And lost only one AI comrade due to Flak in these four missions; that's good too.

In general the Flak losses of the AI planes across the map seem to be a bit lower now than some time ago; at least that's my impression after the few flights I did. ?

The new black puffs are nice as well. Better visible from far away.

All in all, I'm pleased. ? Thanks for maintaining this mod!

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

6 hours ago, RedeyeStorm said:

I agree, but @Rudolph what is the flak test mission and where can I find it?

Stonehouse created some test missions for FLAK, they are in this post:

 

 

[Stonehouse]

So, it sounds like the beta version is generally to everyone's taste? Anyone seen any tweaks that need doing?

 

@vonGraf @Rudolph @RedeyeStorm @JG4_Moltke1871 in particular as you seem to have been doing most of the user acceptance testing? Anything to change? 

 

[JG4_Moltke1871]

I only had two sorties with the beta, escort ground attackers in ww1 and a German fighter bomber sortie at Normandy beach. In both cases there was noticeable less losses of the ground attackers/Jabos ( close to zero ).

I noticed one Halberstadt I escorted had a lot of holes, not sure by fighters or ground machine guns.

Maybe not enough for a final review, as soon I find time I will report more.

[Stonehouse]

Some WIP pics of the Normandy EMG template with more historically correct AAA unit compositions.

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Stonehouse

[Letka_13/Arrow_]

On 11/7/2023 at 4:12 AM, Stonehouse said:

So, it sounds like the beta version is generally to everyone's taste? Anyone seen any tweaks that need doing?

 

@vonGraf @Rudolph @RedeyeStorm @JG4_Moltke1871 in particular as you seem to have been doing most of the user acceptance testing? Anything to change? 

 

I think that the current version is fine, I have flown several missions so far, the FLAK in career is dense but survivable even for AI. I'll report once I've flown more missions. I think it is better than the previous more murderous version.

[Stonehouse]

Any other feedback? From my end I'm thinking it's ok to release the beta?

[migmadmarine]

Does the mod have any effect on the acquisition time or probability for searchlights? As it stands in vanilla and with the mod it seems like they are certain to find you, usually within seconds of being turned on. 

[Stonehouse]

3 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

Does the mod have any effect on the acquisition time or probability for searchlights?

Not at present but I can go looking at whether I can add them.

[Stonehouse]

@migmadmarine

Not sure how successful I've been but give the attached a try re searchlights.

 

Generally, there seems to be no bot definition for searchlights - things like turrets or a gun crew will have a bot definition with parameters for error in aiming etc - best I've been able to find is two parameters in the searchlight attach definition. These are BeamRadStart and BeamRadEnd. Comments against these are Beam radius at the beginning (affects the possibility of missing the target) and Radius of the beam at the end (affects the possibility of missing the target) .

 

Based on past experience usually this kind of thing starts with the AI aiming wide and they narrow down to a good aim over time. So, I lowered the BeamRadEnd value a fair bit.

 

For others testing the AAA part of the mod, the attached has slightly tweaked light AAA to decrease first burst accuracy from that in the last beta.

 

AAAmod - ROF beta20nov.zip

 

 

If no-one has issues with this one, I'll make it the release version in a few days. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Stonehouse