Navy Planes and Campaign’s?

[Flyboy-Pumpzy]

Is IL2 ever going to add all of the Naval aircraft such as the Wildcat, Corsair, Dauntless, etc? I think that they should add the pacific theatre planes and make campaigns such as the battle of midway, Pearl Harbor and more. It is just a suggestion and I’m also curious!

[DBFlyguy]

The short answers is unfortunately no.   But many of us are hoping and praying waiting for anything PTO related isn't in vain....

 

[SqueakyS]

The devs have a minimum historical accuracy bar that they won't go under and the sparse information regarding Japanese planes puts them well under this bar. They wont do another theatre without two sides so don't expect American Navy planes until more information on IJN planes becomes avaiable.

 

Edit: The Devs planned on PTO after Battle of Kuban but the above reason was why they went with BoBp instead.

Edited October 8, 2021 by SqueakyS

[Lusekofte]

3.......2.......1 and off it go to the PTO bin 

You are new. And therefore excused. It took me a year to get over the binning of PTO. No. 1 troll topic a year in end.

No it is not coming any kind of PTO. 

If it do it will take many years.

But there is a upside. Dev team do really want to do it if it ever get feasible. But they are understaffed. They do not have economy for such a undertaking. But they do improve and develop what they can. My disappointment has been replaced with deep respect 

Edited October 8, 2021 by LuseKofte

[TP_Sparky]

The devs only have proper data on the Zero fighter.  For a PTO module they'd need data for other Japanese fighters and bombers. 

[jerrybasher]

On 10/8/2021 at 11:02 PM, Flyboy-Pumpzy said:

Is IL2 ever going to add all of the Naval aircraft such as the Wildcat, Corsair, Dauntless, etc? I think that they should add the pacific theatre planes and make campaigns such as the battle of midway, Pearl Harbor and more. It is just a suggestion and I’m also curious!

 

There's a Wildcat in il-2 Cliffs of Dover. Otherwise your stuck with War Thunder (you can try and play its campaign but its an arcadey mess abandoned by the devs). If you don't care about outdated graphics then there's always 1946 to fall back on. 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by jerrybasher

[Blitzen]

Over at ClodDWT there is the pretty little Wildcat and with the right skins( Japanese that is ,) for the stock Italian aircraft there are some semi-believable Pacific Theater missions possible. I haven’t seen any third party missions yet, but perhaps at some future date. The Wildcat is fun to fly & will be more so when VR comes to Desert Wings…soon I hope

[Feathered_IV]

12 hours ago, TP_Sparky said:

The devs only have proper data on the Zero fighter.  For a PTO module they'd need data for other Japanese fighters and bombers. 

 

A Zero Model 21 collector's plane and a generic Pacific DF map like the old Il-2 Aces expansion had would be good.  I could shoot down your P-39s and chase your A-20s all day long... 

[Pict]

38 minutes ago, Feathered_IV said:

chase your A-20s all day long... 

 

Probably about right as some A-20's were faster than some Zero's, you might not even catch them depending on the models depicted 

[Feathered_IV]

Yes 

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

Well... Martlets, Hellcats and Seafires all saw a little bit of action over Normandy. Once the Normandy map releases they're not utterly beyond the bounds of possibility as Collector aircraft.

[Pict]

6 minutes ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

Martlets, Hellcats and Seafires all saw a little bit of action over Normandy

 

Was it not just spotting for naval artillary? I know that a couple of USN Hellcats got in a scrap with 190's, but that was the other side of the invasion, from the South of France...

 

If you want Hellcats, Wildcats & Seafires & Corsairs in the ETO, you really need to look in the direction of Norway.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Pict

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

The Seafires spotting for artillery seem to have expected occasional scraps, they were flying in pairs with one aircraft spotting and the other ready for air combat if fighters showed up. FAA Avengers also seem to have had maritime strike jobs in the run up to the landings, attriting coastal shipping and the like. Looks like the Grumman Cats were both on escort carriers as part of Neptune, which is unlikely to appear on the map we get.

 

I like the idea of Norway but there's just no German opposition, so I don't think we can get a map for it. Best bet for Western Front carrier ops is Salerno, I reckon.

[Pict]

27 minutes ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

I like the idea of Norway but there's just no German opposition, so I don't think we can get a map for it. Best bet for Western Front carrier ops is Salerno, I reckon.

 

Probably as much or more German opposition in Norway as there was at the D-Day landings, Salerno was MTO though, as while there was an Eastern front, the ETO & MTO were seen as seperate theatres.

 

Outside of carrier ops that used Japanese opposition, you also have Operation Torch, which would also be very interesting and not just from the carrier point of view, as the opposing forces wern't solely German for a change.

[III/JG53Frankyboy]

1 hour ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

 

 

I like the idea of Norway but there's just no German opposition, so I don't think we can get a map for it.

yes, unfortunatly. It would be an amazing scenario ( map, carriers, carrierplanes)  IMHO !

And they could concentrate on the allied "stuff" - the german is already done

[Juri_JS]

1 hour ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

I like the idea of Norway but there's just no German opposition, so I don't think we can get a map for it. Best bet for Western Front carrier ops is Salerno, I reckon.

Actually there were a few encounters between German fighters of JG 5 and Royal Navy aircraft, for example on 8 May 1944 and 26 March 1945. But most combat of JG 5 over Norway was with Coastal Command aircraft of Banff and Dallachy strike wings.

[Enceladus828]

4 hours ago, Pict said:

 

Probably as much or more German opposition in Norway as there was at the D-Day landings, Salerno was MTO though, as while there was an Eastern front, the ETO & MTO were seen as seperate theatres.

 

Outside of carrier ops that used Japanese opposition, you also have Operation Torch, which would also be very interesting and not just from the carrier point of view, as the opposing forces wern't solely German for a change.

I feel that our best bet for WW2 Carrier Ops in the near future lies with the IL-2 Dover series as in the past there has been talk of including aircraft carriers in the next installment, TF 6.0, and including Carrier versions of aircraft already in the game such as the Spitifire, Hurricane, Gladiator, Martlet, and there has been talk of including the Swordfish.

 

If they do Salerno at a future module they likely would include carriers as well.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Enceladus
added "in the near future"

[Pict]

22 minutes ago, Enceladus said:

I feel that our best bet for WW2 Carrier Ops lies with the IL-2 Dover series

 

The rest of what you said may well be the case, but not for "the royal we". As I understand it we are on the IL2 BOX boards and not everyone here either has or wants to have the IL-2 Dover series and I'm firmly in the latter group. Partly as I won't tolerate Steam on my PC, but partly as I see the IL2 Dover series as being somewhat dated in comparison to BOX and partly as I would prefer to have it all in one BOX as it were  

 

That said I'm quite positive and up-beat in my hopes of what might come down the track for IL2 BOX and for that reason I have no intention of ruling out carrier ops.

[Enceladus828]

20 minutes ago, Pict said:

Partly as I won't tolerate Steam on my PC, but partly as I see the IL2 Dover series as being somewhat dated in comparison to BOX and partly as I would prefer to have it all in one BOX as it were

I respect your opinion. And yes, I feel that everyone from both communities would prefer it if both games were under the same roof. However, due to combat flight sims becoming a niche market today and both teams having small amounts of developers, there is no way that they can give us everything that we want -- in a 2.5 year development cycle per module as stated by Jason -- at this quality before a new game engine has to be developed.

 

Anyway, I have edited by earlier response to say "the near future" and I posted a month ago about compromises and 'in regards to the Pacific, is this necessary?' in this thread here.

A Pacific carrier battle in IL-2 GBs is an instant buy for me ?

 

[BraveSirRobin]

13 minutes ago, Enceladus said:

I respect your opinion. And yes, I feel that everyone from both communities would prefer it if both games were under the same roof. 

This is probably a mistaken belief on your part.  I don’t want the TF group anywhere near BoX development.  

[DD_Arthur]

6 hours ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

Best bet for Western Front carrier ops is Salerno, I reckon.

 

This.

[Pict]

1 hour ago, Enceladus said:

And yes, I feel that everyone from both communities would prefer it if both games were under the same roof.

 

Sorry but @BraveSirRobinwas right above in saying "this is probably a mistaken belief on your part". I suppose I could have been more clear, but just to  clearify;

 

What I meant was that if a carrier ops add-on was to become available, I would prefer to have it in IL2 BOX rather than have to fire up some other software (and it's 3rd party software) to access it.

 

To have say, Wildcats, Seafires, Hellcats & Corsairs or what have you available, I would like to be able to run them alongside all of the wonderful selection we already have in the IL2 BOX hangar and have them integrated into campagins where possible.

 

I really have no interest in mixing both games whatsoever at all.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

6 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

Actually there were a few encounters between German fighters of JG 5 and Royal Navy aircraft, for example on 8 May 1944 and 26 March 1945. But most combat of JG 5 over Norway was with Coastal Command aircraft of Banff and Dallachy strike wings.

Do you know which fighters did they encounter? Seafires, Hellcats or Corsairs?

[Juri_JS]

15 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

Do you know which fighters did they encounter? Seafires, Hellcats or Corsairs?

Seafires, Hellcats and Wildcats.

[Enceladus828]

1 hour ago, Pict said:

I would prefer to have it in IL2 BOX rather than have to fire up some other software (and it's 3rd party software) to access it.

First, the people at Team Fusion are no longer modders, they are now the official developers of the game since they received the source code. 

 

Secondly, CloD/IL-2 Dover series is not like CFS3 or Birds of Steel, it is part of the Sturmovik brand and is sold in the same store that the IL-2 GBs content is in.

 

1 hour ago, Pict said:

To have say, Wildcats, Seafires, Hellcats & Corsairs or what have you available, I would like to be able to run them alongside all of the wonderful selection we already have in the IL2 BOX hangar…

Yeah, if the devs are able to go to the Pacific and do carrier battles and the Wildcats, Hellcats, Corsairs, and Seafires (from 1944 onwards) are added then they would be included with all the other planes in IL-2 GBs/BoX.

Edited October 11, 2021 by Enceladus

[Ribbon]

If it's gonna be naval ops or PTO than going without carriers, dive and torpedo bombers doesn't bring in much from what we have now when it comes to gameplay.

Gameplay variety is what sells the dlc's best.

I'd rather 1C devs do it right when it comes to content, it doesn't have to be 100% believable aircraft representation (nor it is now) but let the expansion brings in more type of tools that will bring new gameplay and immersion from what we have in current expansions.

Throwing in few new navy fighters won't bring much except for those few fans of that certain fighter.

 

For now they could just fill in current expansions with new collector planes such as medium bombers and torpedo bombers which can be used on BoN map.

[zan64]

a little mystified why they dont do mini expansions. a zero or an oscar,  a corsair (keeping in mind they were often being used from land bases when first introduced), and a map with a bunch of islands and we are good to go. not having this because no info on some obscure japanese light bomber to counter the dauntless in the plane set depresses me 

[[F.Circus]FrangibleCover]

1 hour ago, zan64 said:

a little mystified why they dont do mini expansions. a zero or an oscar,  a corsair (keeping in mind they were often being used from land bases when first introduced), and a map with a bunch of islands and we are good to go. not having this because no info on some obscure japanese light bomber to counter the dauntless in the plane set depresses me 

Setting aside that this is the first time I've ever heard the D3A called an obscure aircraft, from my understanding of 1C's business model they make a profit on aircraft and lose money on maps. They still make maps because the maps let them make extra planes, but a 1v1 Pacific Thunderdome module would necessitate a map being made for two aircraft, which would mean it has to be proportionately more expensive than all of the other Battles modules. Whether it will then get sales is an open question, would you pay, say, $30 for two planes and some random islands when it's $50 for eight planes, an important theatre of WW2 and a couple of campaigns?

[Pict]

Sometimes I feel like I'm spesaking another language and this is one of those times 

 

Ok fun part over, time for more boring clairity;

 

9 hours ago, Pict said:

I would prefer to have it in IL2 BOX rather than have to fire up some other software (and it's 3rd party software) to access it.

 

The part in bold above is CLoD.

 

9 hours ago, Pict said:

I would prefer to have it in IL2 BOX rather than have to fire up some other software (and it's 3rd party software) to access it.

 

The software I refered to above is Steam.

 

========================

 

8 hours ago, Enceladus said:

First, the people at Team Fusion are no longer modders, they are now the official developers of the game since they received the source code. 

 

Secondly, CloD/IL-2 Dover series is not like CFS3 or Birds of Steel, it is part of the Sturmovik brand and is sold in the same store that the IL-2 GBs content is in.

 

1st point. I never made the distinctinon.

 

2nd point. I am fully aware of all of this, I even bought it from the store here and had to give it away as I could not use it without installing Steam on my PC...and that wasn't happening, ever.

 

So I don't need the lecture or the sales pitch, thanks but no thanks.

 

========================

 

9 hours ago, Enceladus said:

Yeah, if the devs are able to go to the Pacific and do carrier battles and the Wildcats, Hellcats, Corsairs, and Seafires (from 1944 onwards)

 

No, I didn't mention "the Pacific" and I did not do so specifically as I do not immidiately assosiate carrier operations during WWII with the Pacific.

 

For context, the Royal Navy lost 5 fleet carriers and 3 escort carriers during WWII and none of these losses happened in the Pacific. Indeed, 3 of those fleet carriers were sunk before the attack on Pearl Harbour.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Royal_Navy_losses_in_World_War_II#Aircraft_carriers

 

The first Seafires became available to the Fleet Air Arm in late 1941 and it saw it's combat debut about a year later in Operation Torch. I have no idea what you mean by Seafires "(from 1944 onwards)".

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Seafire

[JG27_Steini]

Would love to see how Zero's will annihilate Wildcat's.

[Pict]

1 hour ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

first time I've ever heard the D3A called an obscure aircraft

 

Yeah, me too. when we consider that it was at the forefront of major actions from Pearl Harbour to the Indian ocean, it could hardly be called obscure.

 

My mates uncle was on the HMS Dorchester, the Royal Navy cruiser credited with the final blows from torpedos that sunk the Bismark and took on her survivors. He was still with the Dorchester in the Indian Ocean when she too was sunk, by carrier based D3A Val dive bombers.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Dorsetshire_(40)#Loss

 

He was 91 years old the last time I saw him and when he spoke of the day the Dorchester was lost, that often described 1000 yd stare came over him. He spoke of the dive bombers, the expolosions, sinking and being in the water having only carley floats and not enough space to get everyone up on top to avoid the sharks that one by one reduced the number of survivors. He also said that for a while after the sinking, the Japanes aircraft strafed them on the floats and that they lost a few crew to that.

 

1 hour ago, [F.Circus]FrangibleCover said:

but a 1v1 Pacific Thunderdome module would necessitate a map being made for two aircraft

 

Good point. I like the description too  and hopefull that'll be enough to kill that idea early on, if it's not already dead.

 

=======================

 

I really liked the orginial IL2 series as it opened up areas of WWII that had never really been looked at by combat flight sims before. The forgotten battles theme was good I felt with the likes of Finland getting a look in for the first time I'm aware of. Even when they did the Pacific, they managed take in Pearl Harbour, the Fleet Air Arm and Manchuria, to mentio a few.

 

It also brought aircraft that were up to that point totally overlooked. Like prototypes tested in theatre, some in combat, like the I-185, YP-80 and others. However they threw it in the bin with 1946 as far as I'm concerned. I would have happily traded the entire 1946 junk addon for a Bearcat or better still a rework of some of their AI stuff like the Pe-8 and the Liberator that was so beutifly done after the fact by TD.

 

The little Thunderdome™ island maps they had were simply there for online dogfighting as back then large detailed maps would struggle over the dial up connections most people had. They were never of any interest to me as I flew mostly off line then and I don't see why they should be resurected in IL2 BOX when we see massive online battles on large detailed maps like we have now.

 

=========================

 

Anyhow, even although stuff like the Battle of Midway has been pushed to the back burner, there are other potential theaters to look into without trashing the whole effort up to this point with Thunderdome modules™

 

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Pict

[Missionbug]

For the foreseeable future the aircraft carrier is I think a no go unless they do something brand new outside of the Great battles series, without going somewhere new the second option is to integrate one into a existing module, sadly nothing doing with what we have so far.  The best opportunity would have come if the Murmansk map had come to fruition, a small escort carrier could have been developed to give them a chance to test the validity, put their toe in the water to test the temperature so speak, sadly that came to nothing.

 

1C in the past has always provided some kind of island map/maps to play around with in IL-2 and Cliffs that was nowhere in particular but I guess intended for just the scenario folks want for their Zero and Wildcat, however, there is the issue, maybe one of the existing team might have a trip of fancy and put together a very basic map but what of the two aircraft?  Making a 3d model is a long involved process, maybe here the basic map also, that I doubt any of the existing team would want to make these things in their spare time just for the fun, in these cost sensitive times getting the management to sanction such flights of fancy will be difficult and they have already ruled out cash collections from the community as a way of bringing such items into the series, and then the coding of it, who in their spare time on the team might do it?

 

And what of the third parties out there, think they would be interested?   I am sure there are individuals outside the company who might, then again they need some access to the series to build their wares and test them, Jason seems very much against this approach so those out there who could do it are the team themselves and their established third party colleagues, they are all busy themselves on current projects.

 

We are in a very different world to the IL_2 of old, the expectations for detail are way above what was available then, the past has shown these teams that even very small issues create problems out of all proportion to what it is, they are dammed if they do, dammed if they don't, flights of fancy like building two aircraft sets do not fall within the business model best not to hope for too much, for the time being there is much to use as is with the existing modules, try not to torture yourselves with these dreams.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Missionbug

[PatrickAWlson]

Just me, but no way do I roll out something as big as carrier ops in something as obscure as Norway, Southern France, or Salerno.  Pacific or nothing.  

 

I would not say "never" when it comes to the Pacific.  It might be possible to get the data over time.  There is a market for it.  However, the European campaigns, at least the big ones, have not yet run dry.  France 1940, Italy 1943-1944, Bagration and Berlin are all possibilities.  If IL2 ever decides to eat its siblings then BoB and North Africa are also on the table.   

 

I have no idea where the team is going next, but I'm pretty sure that it is not going to be carrier ops in the ETO.

[Pict]

1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Just me, but no way do I roll out something as big as carrier ops in something as obscure as Norway, Southern France, or Salerno.  Pacific or nothing.

 

It for sure won't just be you, there will be a multitude who think the same way. But I find it more than a little self serving to say Pacific or nothing when it comes to carrier ops for IL2 BOX.

 

Say there was plenty enough data to do carrier ops in say an operation torch scenario where we could see Seafire's, Sea Hurricanes, Fulmars, Wildcats, Dauntless dive bombers going up against Vichy French Curtis Hawk 75's, MS 406's and DeWotine 520's etc...

 

Would you be happy to see that shelved period, just because there wasn't enough data for Japanese aircraft?

 

========================

 

I'd like to see a PTO "battle of" complete with carrier ops, but I don't feel the need to sacrafice all other carrier ops if it's a no go, or happy about that idea.

 

Plus, none of the places you mentioned were obsure to those who fought and died in them in carrier aircraft at the time, not are obscure to those who live in them now. I don't know where you live, but if anyione called it obscure I bet you wouldn't like it too much.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Pict

[PatrickAWlson]

3 minutes ago, Pict said:

 

It for sure won't just be you, there will be a multitude who think the same way. But I find it more than a little self serving to say Pacific or nothing when it comes to carrier ops for IL2 BOX.

 

Say there was plenty enough data to do carrier ops in say an operation torch scenario where we could see Seafire's, Sea Hurricanes, Fulmars, Wildcats, Dauntless dive bombers going up against Vichy French Curtis Hawk 75's, MS 406's and DeWotine 520's etc...

 

Would you be happy to see that shelved period, just because there wasn't enough data for Japanese aircraft?

 

========================

 

I'd like to see a PTO "battle of" complete with carrier ops, but I don't feel the need to sacrafice all other carrier ops if it's a no go, or happy about that idea.

 

Plus, none of the places you mentioned are obsure to those who live in them. I don't know where you live, but if anyione called it obscure I bet you wouldn't like it too much.

 

I don't know why you say self serving.  I am much more interested in Europe, so a swing to the Pacific wouldn't serve me at all.  

 

They are not obscure to those who lived them?  Ummm ... those who lived them, if they are alive at all, are in their 90s.  That is not who you are selling this product to.  BTW: obscure is not an insult.  It means not well known.

 

Now let's take the least obscure: Salerno.  Do you hear Salerno and think "carrier ops!".  I know that I don't.  I think of infantry.   When I do think of air ops in Italy I think of ground pounding, anti shipping, and the 15th AF strategic operations, not carriers.   So yeah, carrier operations in Italy, Norway, and southern France are obscure.  How many people do you think even know that we carried out an invasion in southern France?

 

I live in a town in North Carolina U.S.  it's obscure.

 

 

[Pict]

4 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I am much more interested in Europe, so a swing to the Pacific wouldn't serve me at all.

 

OK, so why the "Pacific or nothing" comment? 

 

Millions of people live in the places mentioned, not just people in their 90's, or was that a joke?

[Gambit21]

 

Marketability is a huge consideration.

There are many little sub-theaters, many of them obscure/not widely marketable. 

 

This is why PTO has to come eventually. There’s lots of places to go, but only a handful of places to go and sell units. That’s just how it is.

 

Pict, to your point, millions of people live in the U.S., rarely do I meet one who can tell you a damn thing about WWII. 

 

Battle of Norway, Torch etc are obscure by most standards. D-Day is obscure if you as your average 30 year old.

 

[Pict]

3 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Pict, to your point

 

My point pretty much in a nutshell is that if PTO carrier ops are off the menu, I don't get why other carrier ops should also be off the menu.

 

If it's off the menu, it ain't for sale, so then it's not a factor.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Pict

[Gambit21]

5 minutes ago, Pict said:

 

My point pretty much in a nutshell is that if PTO carrier ops are off the menu, I don't get why other carrier ops should also be off the menu.

 

If it's off the menu, it ain't for sale, so then it's not a factor.

 

I don’t think it’s ultimately off the menu - it ultimately can’t be...that’s my point.

 

I think the Devs are deciding what a PTO release looks like, and when.

 

That said I think Atlantic ops eventually would be nice. It’s risky though IMHO.

[PatrickAWlson]

19 minutes ago, Pict said:

 

OK, so why the "Pacific or nothing" comment? 

 

Millions of people live in the places mentioned, not just people in their 90's, or was that a joke?

@Gambit21 already said it: sales.  Carrier ops are a well known and central aspect of PTO battles.  People, not just grogs like many of us, know about carrier battles in the Pacific. 

 

Putting carrier ops out as central part of any ETO module - do you really believe that would attract the numbers that would produce the required income to justify the expense?  I don't.  If you do then we just disagree, which should not be a big deal.