Sun filter

[Gr3y]

Hello,

 

Just finished mission 14 - "Silencing the artillery" in Achtung Spitfire scripted campaign and since it takes place at 5:45 AM when the sun is rising, blinding (only me, AI had no problems), full of hope I tried to use the sun filter only to get disappointed again, as it still doesn't work. Will it ever be fixed or it was useless in real as well?

 

The change needed to make it at least a bit useful seem really minor (like remove the sun rays or make it even darker than Spitfire's front glass), why let us move/slide it, if it doesn't help at all? The worst thing is that there are a lot of planes equiped with sun filters and none of them seem to work (at least I haven't found a good one).

Edited May 26, 2021 by TrueGrey

[ShamrockOneFive]

Is the filter not working or are you saying that it doesn't make the sight picture any clearer in direct sunlight?

[Gr3y]

I mean that the sight picture is not getting any clearer and it doesn't matter if it's direct sunlight or the sun is shining from the side/behind, all the sun filter does is making the sight picture a little bit darker, not even close to the effect you could get while let's say wearing sunglasses.

[354thFG_Leifr]

The filter is functionally useless.

[ShamrockOneFive]

Ok, I wasn't sure if you were describing a key binding issue or if it was something else.

 

I don't have much use for most of the filters. They aren't all that helpful. IMHO having used some ND filters and Mylar solar filters I would say that the effect in the sim isn't quite what it should be in real life but then again looking directly into the sun, even with a significant filter, is not always that easy to do.

[Gr3y]

41 minutes ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

but then again looking directly into the sun, even with a significant filter, is not always that easy to do.

 

Sure it is not, but unfotunately in the sim the sun filter is useless in any case, not only when you are directly facing the sun. 

 

We have some planes that are equipped with it, probably all of them got it animated, so you could "turn it on and off", so that took some effort to produce, yet I bet it doesn't work (doesn't help with aiming) in any case, which is disappointing as it's only mocking the player for no reason.

 

Spoiler

Unless someone likes to slide stuff in and out.

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by TrueGrey

[ShamrockOneFive]

It does work. It just doesn't work exceptionally well. What are you expecting it to do?

 

I'd be interested to know if they worked well in real world practice.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Sun filter is useless IMHO, it is not working as should do to the technical limitation.

[Angry_Kitten]

so far in my SP enjoyment, the sun filter doesnt work well outside of 11am to 4pm. Rest of the time it is still BRIGHT as hell and has a tendency to shift the aim point

[Gr3y]

3 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

It does work. It just doesn't work exceptionally well.

 

When a thing only "works" in situations, where I have no problems without using that thing, I would say it doesn't work.

 

3 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

What are you expecting it to do?

 

I would expect it to help with the situations when I start having problems with tracking the enemy in front of me (because it is too bright outside), that's it, and with current implementation it seems to be more "cosmetic" than actual functionality.

 

4 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

I'd be interested to know if they worked well in real world practice.

 

Same, maybe it worked like that (then I don't know why anyone would bother with it), maybe there is something wrong with me, my setup but looking at this thread, people share my opinion regarding sun filter's current state, it just seems useless.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

11 hours ago, TrueGrey said:

I mean that the sight picture is not getting any clearer and it doesn't matter if it's direct sunlight or the sun is shining from the side/behind, all the sun filter does is making the sight picture a little bit darker, not even close to the effect you could get while let's say wearing sunglasses.

Well, that's what sunglasses do. Make things darker.

 

Even the expensive polarised sunglasses only work against reflections, because you actually know what polarisation these have and hence can filter out that specific one (for specific orientations of the filter, but with aircraft having free rotation along 3 separate axes even that is not certain). Against direct sunlight, even polarised filters can do little more than make things darker.

 

If you want, I can give a slightly more elaborate physical explanation why this is the case.

[Gr3y]

32 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Well, that's what sunglasses do. Make things darker.

 

You missed the second part:

 

Quote

not even close to the effect you could get while let's say wearing sunglasses.

 

33 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

If you want, I can give a slightly more elaborate physical explanation why this is the case.

 

I don't need it, thank you. 

 

Sorry, but I don't really get the point of your post, are you saying that current sun filter implementation is correct and it works as it should?

[AEthelraedUnraed]

Just now, TrueGrey said:

Sorry, but I don't really get the point of your post, are you saying that current sun filter implementation is correct and it works as it should?

I'm saying that sun filters don't do much more than make things darker, and that the current sun filter implementation doesn't do much more than make things darker.

[Gr3y]

Yeah, it has already been said, but there can be difference between "darker" and "darker" and I've created the thread as current "darker" is not useful at all, at least not for me.

Edited May 27, 2021 by TrueGrey

[AEthelraedUnraed]

23 minutes ago, TrueGrey said:

Yeah, it has been already said, but there can be difference between "darker" and "darker" and  I've created the thread as current "darker" is not useful at all, at least not for me.

Well, sun filters aren't very useful for filtering direct sunlight. They're better suited to reducing the general amount of light (as sunglasses do) rather than completely filtering out the sun when you're flying directly to it (which sun glasses don't do either).

 

But you do have a point in that sun filters apparently had some use or they wouldn't have put it on their gunsights. A quick google search leads me to believe that it actually may have had more to do with the visibility of the aiming reticle (https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=17850)

Quote

The trials pilot reported that the graticule was not clear enough against white cloud, even with the smoked-glass sun screen in position

Quote

The blue-tinted swing-in sun screen was found to be effective in high brightness situations although the orange graticule was not perfect in some conditions.

 

It seems that the main use of the sun screen was to keep the reticle visible even against a very bright background, by reducing the brightness of the surrounding area.

Edited May 27, 2021 by AEthelraedUnraed

[Gr3y]

 

1 hour ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Well, sun filters aren't very useful for filtering direct sunlight. They're better suited to reducing the general amount of light (as sunglasses do) rather than completely filtering out the sun when you're flying directly to it (which sun glasses don't do either).

 

I still feel like you are trying to put words into my mouth, as again I said something different, never wanted to "completely filter out the sun", I also pointed out that it doesn't even work when you are not flying directly into the sun.

 

Quote

I mean that the sight picture is not getting any clearer and it doesn't matter if it's direct sunlight or the sun is shining from the side/behind

 

Not to prolong the discussion, I have made a comparision on Kuban spring sortie at 6 am with sun behind the plane and filter on and off. Check it and tell me you don't see a problem here.

 

Plus sunglasses with and without photo:

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by TrueGrey

[AEthelraedUnraed]

55 minutes ago, TrueGrey said:

I still feel like you are trying to put words into my mouth, as again I said something different, never wanted to "completely filter out the sun", I also pointed out that it doesn't even work when you are not flying directly into the sun.

What do you expect to see then?

 

55 minutes ago, TrueGrey said:

Not to prolong the discussion, I have made a comparision on Kuban spring sortie at 6 am with sun behind the plane and filter on and off. Check it and tell me you don't see a problem here.

I don't see much of a problem here. AFAIK the sun filters were not designed to deal with reflections (i.e. not polarised), and in all likelihood the filters themselves reflect light just as much as the canopy. Given that the image is pretty dark overall, combined with the limited dynamic range of screen images, it's perfectly plausible to me that the results are less than overwhelming. 

 

Edit: on second thought, I do see a problem here in that the filter doesn't seem to have any reflections of its own. I can imagine that IRL the reflections of the sun filter with the sun at 6 o'clock would combine with the reflections of the canopy to make it a real nuisance to see through. 

 

Also, you use the sun filter in a situation it was never designed for. It's meant for high brightness situations whereas you use it in a low-brightness situation against reflections that non-polarised filters are, like I said, not especially suited for.

 

Try it in an extremely bright setting, with white clouds or snow in the background. 

Edited May 27, 2021 by AEthelraedUnraed

[firdimigdi]

14 hours ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

It does work. It just doesn't work exceptionally well. What are you expecting it to do?

I'd expect it to reduce the glare effect from the sun when looking directly at it; sort of like what you get when you move your head behind one of the cockpit struts - only in the latter case it removes it completely.

[Gr3y]

11 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

What do you expect to see then?

 

Not much, just less sun glare and something similar to the real photo I've posted (meaning much darker effect).

11 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I don't see much of a problem here. AFAIK the sun filters were not designed to deal with reflections (i.e. not polarised), and in all likelihood the filters themselves reflect light just as much as the canopy.

 

Since the sun filter material is darker/different it shouldn't reflect light just as much as the conopy, also the filter is smaller and the pilot would cover much of the sight with his body preventing the sun rays from directly affecting the filter that much.  For some reason on the screens I've posted we can see that the front glass is affected by the reflections a lot, while others aren't, which seem quite strange and this is the main source of the problem with tracking.

 

11 hours ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

 

Try it in an extremely bright setting, with white clouds or snow in the background. 

 

Anyway I've took some more screenshots in various "bright setting" and still it improves nothing (well it gets just a little bit darker, but that's it, I don't believe it would be beneficial in any situation, hence none would see the difference in the fight outcome if they were to remove it). Sun glare is not affected at all.

 

1 - clouds - no effect at all, but they are not too thick

2 - snow with sun from the back - doesn't really improve anything

3 - sun with sun from the front - no problem wheter we use it or not

4 - direct sun - no glare reduction at all

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by TrueGrey

[AEthelraedUnraed]

 

27 minutes ago, TrueGrey said:

Since the sun filter material is darker/different it shouldn't reflect light just as much as the conopy

That is simply not true. The diffuse or translucent colour of a material doesn't have anything to do with how much it reflects. Take a sheet of paper - pure white, but it doesn't reflect much. Now take black car paint - rather dark, but it reflects pretty well. Sun screens seem to have been made from smoked glass, of which I don't expect the reflective properties to be all that different.

 

2 minutes ago, TrueGrey said:

Not much, just less sun glare and something similar to the real photo I've posted (meaning much darker effect).

Sun filters won't help all that much against glare. Sun filters are mostly linear, meaning that they decrease the amount of all light going through them by, let's say, 50%, irrespective of the absolute quantity of light. This can help to reduce the absolute brightness of a bright sky on a sunny day enough to make it comfortable to look at, as sunglasses do. When looking directly into the sun however, you've got a brightness of a gazillion. 50% of a gazillion is still a gazillion, so you will still see lots of glare (which is "generated" in our eyes, by the way, rather than coming at us, so glare itself is not something that *any* filter can block). The glare will be slightly less, but it's still quite impossible to look directly into the sun for more than a fraction of a second.

 

Note that I do concede that the glare will be somewhat less (how much less exactly is debatable) as less direct sunlight reaches your eye - that doesn't mean however that the crux of my argument is still the same - you're quite unable to look into the sun, filter or no filter. In that sense, the effect is realistic.

 

Regarding the darkening effect, I don't know what properties the real-life gunsights had. A quick google search returns results ranging from close to what's in the screenshots, to almost pure black.

 

Again, the main use of the sun filter seems to me to have been an increased visibility of the reticle. If you just want to reduce the brightness of the sky/clouds or reduce glare, you're much better off simply wearing sunglasses, which they did, as these reduce the light from all directions rather than just a very small area directly in front of you, that is usually not even oriented towards the sun. This effect is present in-game (it can be observed in your second set of screenshots, against the snow background), but not as much as I'd expect. I therefore think the real "problem" of the game is therefore rather a too bright reticle.

 

As for why, my usual suspect is dynamic range. computer screens are really very bad at displaying large contrast ranges, leading to especially the lighter and the darker areas to become "compressed". This causes the additive brightness effect of the reticle, which is more in the center range of the image, to have a disproportionately large effect on the bright range of the snow and clouds and such, and would hence explain why it remains visible even with a background of mostly white snow. As for solutions, there aren't many. HDR might solve the problem, depending on their implementation of it, or it might not do a thing. Otherwise, it's possible to reduce the brightness of the reticle by a mod (there are a couple of mods changing the in-game reticles, but they usually make them brighter...)

 

You can see the effect in this video, towards the end when the reticle moves over the well-lit white part of the background: it's barely visible anymore.

Spoiler

 

 

Compare with the following, where the sun filter is up and the reticle remains visible extremely well (also note this is one of the nearly black sun screens I was talking about, showing that at least they did exist):

Spoiler

 

 

[Gr3y]

1 hour ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

That is simply not true.

 

What is not true, that different material have different reflective properties or darker colors absorb more light, hence pretty sure affect reflections as well?

 

Spoiler

Again I think there is something wrong with reflections, when you compare front glass with others.

 

1 hour ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

Sun filters won't help all that much against glare.

 

Doesn't matter, in real life it helps (to some degree), otherwise why call it a sun filter in the first place.

 

First video you posted doesn't seem to be original Revi sight, even the sun filter seems to be completely transparent, so it won't tell us how it worked.

 

I don't think this discussion is going to answer the original question, which is "should the sun filter help with the sun", so forgive me for not commenting entire post (I agree with most of it), I do appreciate it though. Basing on your statements I understand you are content with current implementation and the problem lies in "too bright reticle".

 

Since I am playing almost exclusively Il2 I wonder how are the filters implemented in other games like DCS.

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by TrueGrey

[AEthelraedUnraed]

3 minutes ago, TrueGrey said:

What is not true, that different material have different reflective properties or darker colors absorb more light, hence pretty sure affect reflections as well?

The part that's not true is that darker diffuse or translucent colours absorb specular reflections. Specular reflections depend on the ratio of refractive indices on the interface between the two materials - air and glass in this case. While it is likely that additions to the glass (such as is the case in smoked glass) change the IOR, this effect is likely very minor and in any case doesn't depend on the colour of the additions whatsoever. To visualise this you can, as I already said, take a white sheet of paper. Light colour, lots of diffuse, little specular. Compare with black car paint or a switched-off phone screen. Dark colour, little diffuse, lots of specular. Even though the paint and screen have a darker colour than the very bright paper, they actually have more specular reflection and they work almost like a mirror.

 

Reflections on glass are specular (glass has little if any diffuse reflection, since it's mostly translucent). Since both standard and smoked glass mainly consist of molten silicon dioxide, I'd expect their refractive indices to be quite close, and therefore their specular reflections to be similar.

 

25 minutes ago, TrueGrey said:

Doesn't matter, in real life it helps (to some degree), otherwise why call it a sun filter in the first place.

Now we're talking semantics, which is never good evidence for anything. My personal theory is that they're called as such because they're basically the same as sunglasses, which *are* a rather good "sun screen". Not in the sense that they help a lot when looking directly into the sun, but in that they screen your eyes against the effects of the sun, i.e. a very bright sky and/or objects.

 

29 minutes ago, TrueGrey said:

First video you posted doesn't seem to be original Revi sight, even the sun filter seems to be completely transparent, so it won't tell us how it worked.

I think you missed my point. The point is precisely that it doesn't have a sun filter ("completely transparent"), which causes the reticle to become almost invisible against a bright background. This supports my theory of sun filters on gunsights being mainly used to keep the reticle visible, rather than blocking the sun in any way.

 

Which gives my answer to the original question "should the sun filter help with the sun": I personally think a sun filter should not really help with the sun, or at least wasn't historically intended to. It should help with too dim reticles in bright lighting conditions, which in this game isn't much of a problem.

 

On to the next, implied, question. Should the in-game sun filters be darker? Well, I think my second video shows that at least some sun filters were darker than what's currently in-game.

[Gr3y]

14 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

My personal theory is that they're called as such because they're basically the same as sunglasses, which *are* a rather good "sun screen".

 

And this is the main reason why I think it doesn't work as it should, the "sunglasses" effect in the sim is really poor.

 

3 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I think you missed my point ... This supports my theory of sun filters on gunsights being mainly used to keep the reticle visible, rather than blocking the sun in any way.

 

The connection here is kinda "stretched", basing on the video it could be one of more purposes or not a purpose at all. Not to mention the background doesn't change, the camera zoomes out and changes the angle, which affects the quality of distant objects in the video making the reticle barerly visible potentionaly only on recording. 

 

10 minutes ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I personally think a sun filter should not really help with the sun, or at least wasn't historically intended to.

 

This is the case, you could be right but it's just a supposition and it seems people have different views on that matter.

[AEthelraedUnraed]

I just found a primary source, the manual of the Revi 16B: https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/revi-16b-user-manual-pdf.8530/.

 

The relevant text:

Quote

Befindet sich das Ziel in der Nähe der Sonne bzw. vor einer von der Sonne hell beleuchteten Wolke, so wäre normalerweise der Schütze stark geblendet und das auf dem Reflexglas gespiegelte Strichbild würde überstrahlt werden. Um dies zu vermeiden, wird in diesem Falle das Farbglas (2) (Umbralglas 90%) durch Drücken des Schalthebels (29) in die obere Raststellung vorgeschalted, so daß das grelle Sonnenlicht gedämpft wird.

A quick translation:

Quote

If the target is near the sun or in front of a brightly-lit cloud, the gunner would usually be blinded and the aiming reticle would be outshone. To prevent this, in these cases the sun filter is moved to its upper position, so that the bright sunlight is dampened.

 

So it seems we're both right - it was used to reduce sun glare *and* to keep the reticle visible.

Edited May 28, 2021 by AEthelraedUnraed

[Gr3y]

1 hour ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

I just found a primary source, the manual of the Revi 16B: https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/revi-16b-user-manual-pdf.8530/.

 

Great finding, thanks!

 

1 hour ago, AEthelraedUnraed said:

So it seems we're both right - it was used to reduce sun glare *and* to keep the reticle visible.

 

It had to be connected as I don't think it would be possible to achieve one thing at satisfying degree without the other.

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by TrueGrey

[SCG_ErwinP]

- This is not a white paper.
- What's wrong?
- This should be white.

- This is white!
- No, look at it, it's evidently not white!
- No way!

[Gr3y]

@SCG_ErwinP Thank you for this valuable input.

 

 

BTW. I just found another thing, which doesn't seem to work properly regarding sun filter. When I move my head up to angle the view the sun filter darkens, see the screenshot.

Edited May 29, 2021 by TrueGrey

[Ala13_UnopaUno_VR]

I have also appreciated these things and many more with the sun, the filter does not work, why do I know? why in DcS you can also use filters to reduce the incidence of the sun and it does work there Let's hope they fix it or really give it usefulness, a good review of the environment is missing for this simulator, they have already commented that things will improve in an uncertain future, let's wait patiently , it is better not to go crazy with these details, in the end they frustrate you more, try to see the good good and these details not yet resolved learn to live with them, The filters do not work.

[Gr3y]

15 minutes ago, Ala13_UnopaUno_VR said:

they have already commented that things will improve in an uncertain future, let's wait patiently

 

That I didn't know, thanks! We are half way there then, as we know devs are aware of the problem.

[Ala13_UnopaUno_VR]

1 hour ago, TrueGrey said:

 

Eso no lo sabía, ¡gracias! Entonces estamos a mitad de camino, ya que sabemos que los desarrolladores son conscientes del problema.

They themselves must be the most critical of their own work, but it is understandable that there are priorities, and at the moment some things that seem important to some are not so much for others, patience and enjoy the simulator, in the end it gives more joys than dislikes, I'll stay with that 

[Gr3y]

8 hours ago, Ala13_UnopaUno_VR said:

They themselves must be the most critical of their own work, but it is understandable that there are priorities

 

Agree with that, there are probably some more important things to do, especially if the fix isn't easy. Since there is no list of reported bugs/problems (or I don't know about it but would find it helpful) I created this thread as a reminder/report of issue. 

 

The thing I don't like is that on the forum you can often find voices diminishing or completely negating the problem, even if it does exist, like here you could hear voices saying the sun filter does work, doesn't matter if in it's current state is completely useless.

[CAFulcrum]

I remember reading here or elsewhere that the filters were mainly for dealing with bright land conditions like snow... at least in the fw190.

[Gr3y]

According too Revi 16B manual, found by AEthelraedUnraed it was used for both, bright land conditions and sun glare. Dunno about other sims but according to Ala13_UnopaUno_VR it also helps with both in DCS.

[LizLemon]

There is some blending order issue going on with the shader for glass used on the shade and goggles. May be related.

[Bernard_IV]

I sometimes turn down the gamma on bright lit maps and then turn it up a bit when it is cloudy or dark.