What did nighttime raids look like and how should they look in the game?

[PatrickAWlson]

I am talking raids and not level bombing.  I envision small formations dropping a payload and scooting.  I imagine the targets to be fixed positions like train stations and airfields.  What other good targets are there in game?  is there  anything special about night raids other than the fact that it's dark?

 

While we are at it, what about counters to night raids?  Did air forces even bother to try to counter nuisance raids or did they generally leave it up to AAA?

[Gambit21]

What do you define as a ‘raid’?

[DD_Arthur]

What do you define as a formation?

 

Did anyone fly formation during night operations?

[Gambit21]

Further what type of aircraft, what theater? 

[PatrickAWlson]

By raid I mean a small number of aircraft.  Nuisance raids, so four aircraft or less.

 

For each plane below, these questions:

Did it ever happen?

What was the flight profile? Low altitude, low release?

What kind if targets did they attack at night?

 

IL2

PE2

Ju87

Ju88

P-47

P-38

 

[Gambit21]

What about the Po-2/U2...?

That’s the aircraft famous for this.

Some good books on the subject.

 

Amercan outfits generally did not bother with ‘nuisance’ sorties. That was a Japanese thing (washing machine Charlie) German, and maybe Russian but not sure there. (aside from U2 I mean)

 

@busdriver can tell you about 9th Air Force Intruder (A-20) sorties over the Bulge in 44-45.

I’d elaborate but typing on my phone right now.

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Gambit21

[busdriver]

3 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I am talking raids and not level bombing.  I envision small formations dropping a payload and scooting.  I imagine the targets to be fixed positions like train stations and airfields. 

 

In RAF parlance, you would be asking about single ship (no night formations) Intruder and Flower missions. The former being Fighter Command (later 2 TAF) tasking, and the latter being direct support for Bomber Command (even when flown by FC/TAF squadrons). They're essentially the same type of mission. Target areas usually included a couple of airfields to patrol looking for activity and trying not to get suckered into dropping their bombs on dummy airfields (lights arranged to look like a runway and taxiways). Road, rail and river traffic were generally targets of opportunity. 

 

RR stations (marshalling yards) in France and airfields near the coast were often assigned as freshmen targets (first couple of sorties). Leaving the UK planes would cruise out between ~4000 to 10,000 feet then let down crossing over the coast of the continent. Reading the ORBs early on they tended to cruise around enemy territory ~3000 feet and as squadrons gained experience dropping down to ~500 feet. 

 

Here's a typical nights activity in July 1943 for 418 Squadron.

 

 

Not surprisingly, many crews brought their bombs back to the UK or jettisoned them in the Channel when they couldn't positively ID their target. The Poles of 305 Squadron didn't bring their bombs home very often. Apparently simply being over Germany was sufficient ID.

 

I can't speak to the IL2 or PE2 or Ju87 with any details. The Germans did have different periods of their night fighters flying Intruder missions to Bomber Command bases looking to catch returning crews with their guard down. The ORBs of Boston/Mosquito intruders frequently mention encountering Ju88s, He111s, Me110s and Me410s at low altitude over France and the Netherlands. Additionally these airplanes except for the 110, were part of night Ops over the UK in 1943 and 1944. These were single ship Ops with airfields and docks/wharfs (logistics) as targets.

 

USAAF night Ops were not a thing. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by busdriver

[Charon]

Emelianenko talks about the 7th Guards almost becoming a night regiment, in "Red Star Against the Swastika" (p166). They trained on U-2s, but during their first (and only) night flight in a Sturmovik, it was realized that the exhaust was very visible at night, and additionally blinded the pilot, so that he could barely see the runway lights to land. Engineers went to work trying to fabricate exhaust dampers, but his unit was never equipped with them, and returned to acting as a day regiment. 

 

[NightFighter]

Ju 88

Nachtjagdgeschwader 2 held the Fernnachtjagd squadron, which used Do 17Z and Ju 88C-2 aircraft on Intruder missions to the British coast and airfields. The germans would intercept british radio communications and decipher were the busiest night bomber bases would be that night. Three waves of intruders would be sent out, one to attack the bombers at their bases, another to intercept them over the channel, and the third to attack them on or after landing. They would either strafe the aircraft or drop butterfly bombs.

 

Although the Ju 88 version we are getting is the C-6, the difference between the C-6 and C-2 is in the engines and airframe. The C-2 had the Jumo 211B or G engines with 1,200hp, while the C-6 was equipped with the Jumo 211J engines with 1,400hp. The C-2 was based on the A-1 airframe, while the C-6 was based on the A-4. If one really wanted to stretch it historically, you could use the Ju 88C-6 in intruder missions in Mid-1941. (The intruder missions were disbanded by Hitler in October of 1941, due to heavy losses, as well as the fact that it was not good for propaganda, as the german people could not see the bombers being shot down).

 

Ju 87

The Ju 87 was deployed as a night attacker on the western front (they could have been also deployed on the eastern front, however, I am not much of an eastern front history buff) after the Normandy landings. The Luftwaffe created the Nachtschlactgruppen (Night Attack Group) squadrons, and three of them operated against the allied landings in normandy. They were pretty heavily modified, with IFF units, gun flash suppressors, engine exhaust sheilds, and a radar altimeter (FuG 101) being added. The dive brakes were removed, and a special night gunsight, the Revi C12N replaced the standard Revi 16D. They converted 300 Ju 87D's for these night operations.

 

A normal attack run was to take off on a moon lit night, in a pair. The leader would drop a flare to illuminate the target, and the wingman would drop his bombs. The usual targets were tank and troop concentrations, railways and transports, bridges, and officer quarters. As soon as they left the target area, a new pair of Ju 87's would be on their way in, so the attacks would go on for hours. The usual attack altitude was 800ft - 3000ft, sometimes even lower. One interesting note was that the rear gunner would sometimes drop Duppel (Window / Chaff) that would cloud the allied radar. 

 

They achieved pretty good success with minimal losses, as their low speed was used as an advantage against mosquito night fighters. In October of 1944, there were around 70 night Ju 87D's but that number increased to 130 on the first day of the ardennes counteroffensive.

[Avimimus]

2 hours ago, NightFighter said:

Ju 87

The Ju 87 was deployed as a night attacker on the western front (they could have been also deployed on the eastern front, however, I am not much of an eastern front history buff)

 

I'm not an expert - but I recall reading that some of the latest D variants got rid of the dive breaks because diving attacks were too dangerous at night... and that was when they were being operated (so why carry the extra weight?)

 

 

10 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

While we are at it, what about counters to night raids?  Did air forces even bother to try to counter nuisance raids or did they generally leave it up to AAA?

 

He-111 were deployed to counter the U-2VS - with some crews becoming aces. The highest number of kills claimed by He-111 crews was actually in the nightfighter role (I can look up more information if you'd like). They also tried using Fw-58 and Fw-189 in counter-intruder roles as they could fly slower (attempts to use Bf-110 and Ju-88 against U-2VS didn't go as well).

 

I'm not sure about the responses to the harassment by Mosquito, Hurricane etc. I'd have to hit the books. I know these things are covered in some Canadian histories. My grandfather was ground-crew at an airfield that got hit by German night intruders.

 

In addition to what Nightfighter described there were also some impromptu attacks where the longer-ranged night fighters followed bombers back to the airfields and shot them down on landing approach (where they were better illuminated and vulnerable).

Edited May 20, 2021 by Avimimus

[Cybermat47]

The only account I’ve heard of formation flying at night was a trio of Betties attacking Darwin at around 0520. AFAIK night attacks were typically done either solo or in a ‘stream’ of lone aircraft flying to the same target at the same time.

[Dragon1-1]

What about the He-50? I saw it mentioned on Wikipedia that it was (briefly) used as a sort of German counterpart to the U-2.

[Diggun]

Recently read this (available MUCH cheaper in the UK under the alternative title 'Mosquito Intruder'. A fantastic (and very funny) account of night intruder ops from a navigators point of view. Cannot recommend highly enough. Lots of stooging around between airfields, low, at night, with a moody and monosyllabic pilot. Emphasizes the challenges of navigation, and isn't afraid to point out the more earthy details - such as when the cockpit floor got covered in piss when the relief tube iced up - not ideal when he dropped his maps in it! Only a couple of daylight ops described - including one daylight raid on two airfields in Denmark. The author was a journalist after the war, and so knows how to write. honestly, one of the best accounts of Mosquito ops I've read.

 

[BlitzPig_EL]

The Japanese flew two H8K Emily flying boats on Operation K, the night bombing of Pearl Harbor several months after the initial attack that brought the US into the war.  Cloud cover over Pearl thwarted the big IJN flying boats from having any chance of hitting their intended target, the 10-10 drydock at Pearl Harbor.  One aircraft dropped it's bombs that fell harmlessly in the mouth of the harbor, and the other blew up some trees, and broke windows in homes in a residential area of Honolulu.   Both aircraft (these were the first two prototypes) made it successfully home to their base of Wotje in the Marshall Islands.  It's a fascinating story of a typically complex mission plan by the IJN, that included being refueled by surfaced submarine at French Frigate Shoals.  The Air Corps radar in Hawaii did see them coming and launched a flight of P39s, but these pilots had no experience with night fighting, much less with being directed by a ground based radar.  The only "dedicated" night fighters in Hawaii at the time were a flight of old Boeing P26 "Peashooters" that were painted flat black, and never were used.  They could not have caught the H8K at altitude in any case.

Edited May 20, 2021 by BlitzPig_EL

[Bremspropeller]

4 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I saw it mentioned on Wikipedia that it was (briefly) used as a sort of German counterpart to the U-2.

 

 But they were probably not used in the name of love, right?

 

 

Are @Enceladus and @Charon related?

 

 

And to answer the initial question:

 

Mostly *dark*....*bright*....*dark* 

[Avimimus]

6 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

What about the He-50? I saw it mentioned on Wikipedia that it was (briefly) used as a sort of German counterpart to the U-2.

 

There were some others as well. They converted a number of trainer biplanes to the night attack role. I've found some more information since writing this - but you might still find it interesting:

 

Train busting (moving)

 

Night time attacks against moving trains were done by specialist crews. In the thread (linked above) there are a couple pictures of a He-111 equipped with six forward firing cannons for that purpose.

 

The Russians also equipped a Lisunov Li-2 with two 45mm automatic cannons for attacking trains at night. According to the Russian sources the aircraft was successful enough that the Germans placed a bounty on it.

 

Unfortunately I've never been able to find drawings of the NS-45 equipped Li-2... although there are drawings for an interwar proposal for equipping an Li-2 with auto-cannons and many Li-2 seem to have carried a single fixed forward firing ShKAS (possibly useful for attacking searchligts??)

Edited May 20, 2021 by Avimimus

[Charon]

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

Are @Enceladus and @Charon related?

Enceladus?! Hah! No, he's Gaia's son, and I of Nyx. We've never even met. Frankly, I'm much better about meeting mortals. My work doesn't give me much time off.

 

Didn't Athena do quite a number on him? Dropped an island on him, or something like that? Well, it's good to hear they've got internet, wherever he's entombed.

[Diggun]

1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

I have a signed copy. 

I'm very jealous!

[Gambit21]

3 hours ago, Diggun said:

Recently read this (available MUCH cheaper in the UK under the alternative title 'Mosquito Intruder'. A fantastic (and very funny) account of night intruder ops from a navigators point of view. Cannot recommend highly enough. Lots of stooging around between airfields, low, at night, with a moody and monosyllabic pilot. Emphasizes the challenges of navigation, and isn't afraid to point out the more earthy details - such as when the cockpit floor got covered in piss when the relief tube iced up - not ideal when he dropped his maps in it! Only a couple of daylight ops described - including one daylight raid on two airfields in Denmark. The author was a journalist after the war, and so knows how to write. honestly, one of the best accounts of Mosquito ops I've read.

 

 

I have a signed copy - excellent book!

I laughed out loud every few pages or so. 

1 minute ago, Diggun said:

I'm very jealous!

 

Total fluke - but very cool.

[Burdokva]

The Po-2 was the epitome of a 'night raider'. They typically flew at treetop height, up to 200m altitude, typically in singles or pairs. Those biplane units were some of the most active ones in terms of sorties (bios of experienced pilots I've seen state hundreds of sorties). They mostly attacked frontline targets or targets in the immediate rear of the frontline and were intended to cause mostly psychological shock and exhaustion in enemy troops by continuosly bombing throughout the night.

 

The medium bomber types like the SB, Il-4, A-20s and a few armed Li-2s were initially used in small scale raids of up to a few machines but from what I've read, by the beginning of 1943 the Soviets were employing them en masse.

 

The heavy Pe-8s and medium Ye-2s were used mostly in small formations outside of some strategic long range bombing missions but we don't have these in the sim, neither maps for them.

[Gambit21]

20 minutes ago, ACG_Burdokva said:

The Po-2 was the epitome of a 'night raider'. They typically flew at treetop height, up to 200m altitude, typically in singles or pairs. Those biplane units were some of the most active ones in terms of sorties (bios of experienced pilots I've seen state hundreds of sorties). 

 

Yep

I meant Po-2 above - I may have typed Pe-2. Any conversation about night “raids”, this aircraft should be front and center. 

[migmadmarine]

Wasn't a portion of the U2 mission profile flying out to a temporary re-arm point near the front line, and returning there after each strike to re-arm/re fuel, then leaving that area before dawn? Don't know if that could be replicated reliably in PWCG. 

 

Also, Pat, I'd love to see you implement some night fighter operations for the 110 in Kuban, could be great fun. I don't know how reliably you can implement scripts with the generator, but there are some great scripted systems in the Nightfighters over Kuban scripted campaign, such as having ground radar simulated by messages popping up giving grid squares of contact, firing flares over friendly AA to get them to hold fire while you attack a target, and firing flares near home to get them to turn on spotlights and start marker fires along the runway. 

[cardboard_killer]

What did they look like?

 

Go sit in your closet in the dark for half an hour. Then light a string of fire crackers and turn on a strobe light for two minutes. Sit for another half an hour. Leave, get a whiskey and go to sleep.

[Gambit21]

On 5/20/2021 at 2:10 PM, migmadmarine said:

Wasn't a portion of the U2 mission profile flying out to a temporary re-arm point near the front line, and returning there after each strike to re-arm/re fuel, then leaving that area before dawn? Don't know if that could be replicated reliably in PWCG. 

 

Their bases were often just that close to the lines.

 

I could easily build a file where such functionality is implemented and you could fly all night long...in fact I have.

[migmadmarine]

53 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

Their bases were often just that close to the lines.

 

I could easily build a file where such functionality is implemented and you could fly all night long...in fact I have.

Any way to have the AI interact with it? Or would it only work for the player or in MP/co-op?

[Gambit21]

9 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

Any way to have the AI interact with it? Or would it only work for the player or in MP/co-op?

 

I have AI landing, refueling, taking off.

[migmadmarine]

Super cool. 

 

[Burdokva]

On 5/20/2021 at 10:41 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

What about the He-50? I saw it mentioned on Wikipedia that it was (briefly) used as a sort of German counterpart to the U-2.

 

The Germans copied the Soviet tactics and formed several specialised night bomber units, with a number of older types that were otherwise relegated to trainer roles, on the Eastern Front. That was from 1943 onwards, however.

 

There were several night strategic bomber offensives by the Luftwaffe in the East, against Moscow in 1941, against the Saratov plant in late 1942, and against a number of Soviet factories in the Volga river industrial region in Spring 1943 (leading to Zitadelle). I know that the Soviet PVO (Air Defence Forces) tended to have more pilots trained for night fighting compared to VVS Red Army, as well as better equipped machines for it (landing lights, radio compasses, variometers and climb/bank indicators). I'd have to check more on the night ops in any Russian sources.

 

Aside from that, there was scattered night fighting in the East but it was typically regular daytime fighters on either side intercepting small groups of or individual bombers.

[taffy2jeffmorgan]

On 5/20/2021 at 7:12 PM, Diggun said:

Recently read this (available MUCH cheaper in the UK under the alternative title 'Mosquito Intruder'. A fantastic (and very funny) account of night intruder ops from a navigators point of view. Cannot recommend highly enough. Lots of stooging around between airfields, low, at night, with a moody and monosyllabic pilot. Emphasizes the challenges of navigation, and isn't afraid to point out the more earthy details - such as when the cockpit floor got covered in piss when the relief tube iced up - not ideal when he dropped his maps in it! Only a couple of daylight ops described - including one daylight raid on two airfields in Denmark. The author was a journalist after the war, and so knows how to write. honestly, one of the best accounts of Mosquito ops I've read.

 

An excellent book which I read many years ago, if I remember correctly the story is told by a Canadian navigator who's pilot is Jewish and is waging his own war against the Germans, funny in parts but also very tragic.

 

[=420=Syphen]

On 5/20/2021 at 6:12 AM, Diggun said:

Recently read this (available MUCH cheaper in the UK under the alternative title 'Mosquito Intruder'. A fantastic (and very funny) account of night intruder ops from a navigators point of view. Cannot recommend highly enough. Lots of stooging around between airfields, low, at night, with a moody and monosyllabic pilot. Emphasizes the challenges of navigation, and isn't afraid to point out the more earthy details - such as when the cockpit floor got covered in piss when the relief tube iced up - not ideal when he dropped his maps in it! Only a couple of daylight ops described - including one daylight raid on two airfields in Denmark. The author was a journalist after the war, and so knows how to write. honestly, one of the best accounts of Mosquito ops I've read.

 

 

Annd just ordered a copy. Thanks for the recommend.