FIX THE G-D SHERMAN!!!

[Cybermat47]

21 minutes ago, KoN_ said:

The Sherman nicked names tommy knocker or some thing to that ,  because so easy too kill and always set on fire . History . WWII.

The Sherman wasn’t really any easier to kill than any other medium tank of the time. It was only obviously inferior in combat capability to German heavy tanks like the Panther and Tigers, and this was offset by the large number of Shermans and the tiny number of big cats, as well as cat-killer Shermans like the Firefly and 76.

 

Not to mention that the Sherman couldn’t be penetrated from the front by a Chi-Ha, or at all by a Ha-Go.

[LachenKrieg]

Good post @Cybermat47, but @KoN_ has a point. The nickname the Sherman apparently became known for by German tank crews was "Tommy Cookers" because they caught fire so easily.

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Why they caught fire easily was two fold: early shermans had the ammo at vulnerable places, and 2: british doctrine was to load as much ammo as possible and skipped safety rules hence british tanks often burnt and as shermans was used by the british first in 1942 that rumor came from that.

Here is a good docu with sources and modern studies, that also debunks the sherman death trap myth, those who claim it to be that is often taking the book: the deathtrap book written by a sherman repair man whos job was to repair knocked out shermans so was a bit biased from his experiences as he never saw them in combat, in 1942 sherman had more advantages and to be honest they were quite even in my opinion and both ahd its advantages and disadvantages:
 

 

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Why they caught fire easily was two fold: early shermans had the ammo at vulnerable places, and 2: british doctrine was to load as much ammo as possible and skipped safety rules hence british tanks often burnt and as shermans was used by the british first in 1942 that rumor came from that.

Here is a good docu with sources and modern studies, that also debunks the sherman death trap myth, those who claim it to be that is often taking the book: the deathtrap book written by a sherman repair man whos job was to repair knocked out shermans so was a bit biased from his experiences as he never saw them in combat, in 1942 sherman had more advantages and to be honest they were quite even in my opinion and both ahd its advantages and disadvantages:

 

Exactly. But, unfortunately, people continue to believe these myths that refuse to die the death they deserve, just like the ones about the Garand's 'ping', the P-38 being the Fork-Tailed Devil, Hitler ruining the Me 262 as a fighter, etc.

Edited June 2, 2021 by LukeFF

[Cybermat47]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Exactly. But, unfortunately, people continue to believe these myths that refuse to die the death they deserve, just like the ones about the Garand's 'ping',

Is that the one where German soldiers could supposedly always hear a Garand pinging during a firefight that involved dozens, if not hundreds, of rifles and machine guns firing? And then, while the American was reloading, the German could somehow just pop out of cover and shoot him without immediately getting cut down by the American’s squad mates?

[Creep]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

the P-38 being the Fork-Tailed Devil ...

Myth?

[II/JG17_HerrMurf]

31 minutes ago, QB.Creep said:

Myth?

 

Old war stories are generally hit or myth.............

[Cybermat47]

32 minutes ago, QB.Creep said:

Myth?

From what I can find, the P-38 faced so pretty major difficulties against the Germans, with some engagements ending with multiple P-38s shot down for no German losses.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Cybermat47

[LukeFF]

49 minutes ago, Cybermat47 said:

Is that the one where German soldiers could supposedly always hear a Garand pinging during a firefight that involved dozens, if not hundreds, of rifles and machine guns firing? And then, while the American was reloading, the German could somehow just pop out of cover and shoot him without immediately getting cut down by the American’s squad mates?

 

That would be the one, yes.

 

36 minutes ago, QB.Creep said:

Myth?

 

Yes, it was an American wartime propaganda term that was picked up by Martin Cadin in the postwar years and exaggerated wayyyy beyond its original significance. 

 

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/the-fork-tailed-devil-history-of-the-p-38.4624/

Edited June 3, 2021 by LukeFF

[Rjel]

1 hour ago, Cybermat47 said:

From what I can find, the P-38 faced so pretty major difficulties against the Germans, with some engagements ending with multiple P-38s shot down for no German losses.

I'd have to paw through a lot of magazines and books I have to find this info to make sure of the facts, but I'm certain I've read that when victory to loss ratio was totaled for the P-38, it ended up being approximately 1 to 1. I can't remember if that included P-38 losses to all causes or just air to air. Obviously, you aren't going to be able to sustain those types of losses in pilots and aircraft. Still, as many here are found of thinking, the Luftwaffe was still the gold standard to be compared to in 1943 til early 44. Also to be remembered, the P-38 was the only allied fighter with the range to reach deeper into Germany early to mid war, so it was going to be met with considerable opposition. There were also relatively small numbers of Lightnings employed by the 8th AF during that time. Those pilots had their hands full. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Rjel

[JG1_Wittmann]

 

i don't think the issue is with the sherman  damage  model, that I can tell, or any other tanks DM,   would definitely need to be tested.  Multiplayer is I believe where there  problems seem to manifest.    I have had several recent sorties on Finnish  where I was able to kill some tanks then got killed.   Of my last 4 sorties that another tank killed me,  they were all short range engagements,  Under 1000m.   In 3 of those sorties,  I was able to put 3 hits into the tank that killed me before they even fired.  The 4th, was a clean shot on the opposing players part before I could fire.   Now if you look at this sortie log,   it does not appear that I was able to damage When I hit them but it was delayed !

 

Now what is Very Interesting,  is that I killed both this Sherman's gunner, then Commander.  Now for my part, when a crew member gets killed, I can no longer move to that position to play.  So I wonder how it is that 12 seconds after I killed his gunner, and 6 after I killed his commander,  was he able to hit me, damage me and take me out, and at the same time I hit him he was damaged more and was also killed ?  Now a bad connection, on either player is one thing, but thats  milliseconds,   should not be 12 seconds later.   I edited out the players names because this is not about who,  but I believe that  for the most part,  anonymous players are players playing through a Steam Account.  I would also say that players with regular names,  may also be using Steam.   Is Steam, and all this kind of delayed damage and hits related ?

 

 

 

[LachenKrieg]

22 hours ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Why they caught fire easily was two fold: early shermans had the ammo at vulnerable places, and 2: british doctrine was to load as much ammo as possible and skipped safety rules hence british tanks often burnt and as shermans was used by the british first in 1942 that rumor came from that.

Here is a good docu with sources and modern studies, that also debunks the sherman death trap myth, those who claim it to be that is often taking the book: the deathtrap book written by a sherman repair man whos job was to repair knocked out shermans so was a bit biased from his experiences as he never saw them in combat, in 1942 sherman had more advantages and to be honest they were quite even in my opinion and both ahd its advantages and disadvantages:
 

 

Judge, if I may, I suggest you go back and re-watch that episode of Military History Visualized, because it doesn't debunk any myths, but rather simply states the facts.

 

He compares the two tanks using 5 key aspects. Under the aspect of armor, he notes that going strictly by the data, the Sherman wins because of its proposed higher effective armor.

 

But he also goes on to document that the Sherman had more problems with its armor, and had an alarming tendency to catch fire. This was attributed to poor ammo storage layout and problems with armor quality in general. He then goes on to cite ballistics tests done by the British at that time which saw wide variations in armor protection due to construction deficiencies, and noted another major problem was the lack of an escape hatch for the loader, especially when the tank was on fire.

These issues would be addressed in later versions of the Sherman by rearranging ammo storage, including an escape hatch for the loader, and supplying field kits to augment with applique armor add-ons.

 

Going back to the points you made, there is no mention of tank crews over stocking ammo, or exceeding safety standards. The fact that ammo storage in the Sherman had to be redesigned by the people manufacturing it indicates that the problem was with design, and not irresponsible tank crews.

 

The death trap stigma originates from the fact that Sherman's had an alarming tendency to catch fire, and the loader was left with no escape when it did. That constitutes a death trap by definition, and has nothing to do with myth. The rate Sherman's were catching fire was frequent enough that German tank crews gave it the nickname "Tommy Cooker". Again, this is an observation made by people that were there. So we have the American's, the British, and the German's saying essentially the same thing. Where is the myth?

 

Under the aspect of fire power, he compares the PzIV L/43, and not the L/48 we have in game. Even with the L/43, the PzIV had better penetration capabilities then the Sherman. But he also goes on to include more interesting aspects of fire power, like turret rotation speed, gun stabilization, and quality of gun sight. While the Sherman's turret can make a full turn 7.5 seconds quicker than the PzIV, I would point out that making full turns with the turret is less common, and in a 90 degree turn, the advantage is about 2 seconds. If we add to that the fact that the Sherman's gun stabilizer helped to improve aim time after movement, we could assume an advantage here for the Sherman. But when you consider that the Sherman had no magnification, and the PzIV had 2.5x with 25 degree field of view, that advantage seems to slip away. You might get on target 1-2 seconds quicker, but it might take you twice that time to accurately fire a shot.

 

In terms of Tank Crew, I think all anyone is asking for is to have it fixed so that the matches are more fair.     

 

 

14 hours ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

 

i don't think the issue is with the sherman  damage  model, that I can tell, or any other tanks DM,   would definitely need to be tested.  Multiplayer is I believe where there  problems seem to manifest.    I have had several recent sorties on Finnish  where I was able to kill some tanks then got killed.   Of my last 4 sorties that another tank killed me,  they were all short range engagements,  Under 1000m.   In 3 of those sorties,  I was able to put 3 hits into the tank that killed me before they even fired.  The 4th, was a clean shot on the opposing players part before I could fire.   Now if you look at this sortie log,   it does not appear that I was able to damage When I hit them but it was delayed !

 

Now what is Very Interesting,  is that I killed both this Sherman's gunner, then Commander.  Now for my part, when a crew member gets killed, I can no longer move to that position to play.  So I wonder how it is that 12 seconds after I killed his gunner, and 6 after I killed his commander,  was he able to hit me, damage me and take me out, and at the same time I hit him he was damaged more and was also killed ?  Now a bad connection, on either player is one thing, but thats  milliseconds,   should not be 12 seconds later.   I edited out the players names because this is not about who,  but I believe that  for the most part,  anonymous players are players playing through a Steam Account.  I would also say that players with regular names,  may also be using Steam.   Is Steam, and all this kind of delayed damage and hits related ?

 

 

 

Do you mind if I ask which tank you were in?

 

BTW, I have seen this problem also in SP with both the Panther, and the PzIV. So while you may be right and there may be a server/internet lag problem, the problem seems to also extend to other issues like gun/armor performance of some tanks.

Edited June 3, 2021 by LachenKrieg

[JG1_Wittmann]

20 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

Do you mind if I ask which tank you were in?

 

BTW, I have seen this problem also in SP with both the Panther, and the PzIV. So while you may be right and there may be a server/internet lag problem, the problem seems to also extend to other issues like gun/armor performance of some tanks.

I was in a Panzer IV  .  I'm  not really sure  that matters.  I have had similar experiences  in other tanks, including Tigers.   We were both at lethal range for each others gun.  I think the important thing to look at in the log I posted was I was damaged and then killed, according to the logs,   12 Seconds AFTER  the log shows his gunner was killed,   6 seconds after his commander was killed.  How does he fire at me, 12 seconds after death ?   Or is something, Steam perhaps, or simply the Net not telling this player that they have had their gunner killed ?  My mistake, gunner and commander in the sherman were killed at  1:17:07    I was damaged  12 seconds later  at 1:17:19    Now laggy is one thing, but 12 seconds ?

Edited June 3, 2021 by JG1_Wittmann

[LachenKrieg]

5 minutes ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

I was in a Panzer IV  .  I'm  not really sure  that matters.  I have had similar experiences  in other tanks, including Tigers.   We were both at lethal range for each others gun.  I think the important thing to look at in the log I posted was I was damaged and then killed, according to the logs,   12 Seconds AFTER  the log shows his gunner was killed,   6 seconds after his commander was killed.  How does he fire at me, 12 seconds after death ?   Or is something, Steam perhaps, or simply the Net not telling this player that they have had their gunner killed ?

Well if he was in a Sherman, and you were in a Tiger he would have to be behind you. But you raise an interesting point. I know you only get to look at the log after the fact, but can you remember seeing his tank knocked out before yours was? I have seen in SP matches where an AI tank continues to fire after it was knocked out. I wonder if that is what happened in this situation?

[JG1_Wittmann]

No,  He was not damaged in my view before I was killed.  But I did know that I had hit him, several times.   Like I said,  it was under 1K    and out of the last 4 times I was killed on Finnish I had delivered several hits to opponents, that didn't seem to have an effect, I got killed  then when I checked the logs  I see that they had also died  The issue is, this particular instance, his gunner died, according to the logs, 12 seconds before he hit me.   That, for multiplayer is a glaring error.   Since he was a player-#   then Im pretty sure he was using steam acct.  I wonder how many others, using steam, that do not have the anon player handle, have killed me in the same manner, as looking quickly through my logs I can see , like I said, the last few times the opponent has died after I did, and he should have died well before he got a chance to even shoot at me

These occasions, I hit them a few times before they even knew where I was,    That is very disconcerting in regards to the multiplayer aspect of the game.   Now this is all on Finnish,  so I can't say it happens on every server,  that server just happens to be where most people go, imo, to play tanks vs other players

[SCG_judgedeath3]

1 hour ago, LachenKrieg said:

Going back to the points you made, there is no mention of tank crews over stalking ammo, or exceeding safety standards.

No because its mentioned in a book from david fletcher and in several american and british reports from post battle studies, never said it was in that video.

[LachenKrieg]

2 hours ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

No,  He was not damaged in my view before I was killed.  But I did know that I had hit him, several times.   Like I said,  it was under 1K    and out of the last 4 times I was killed on Finnish I had delivered several hits to opponents, that didn't seem to have an effect, I got killed  then when I checked the logs  I see that they had also died  The issue is, this particular instance, his gunner died, according to the logs, 12 seconds before he hit me.   That, for multiplayer is a glaring error.   Since he was a player-#   then Im pretty sure he was using steam acct.  I wonder how many others, using steam, that do not have the anon player handle, have killed me in the same manner, as looking quickly through my logs I can see , like I said, the last few times the opponent has died after I did, and he should have died well before he got a chance to even shoot at me

These occasions, I hit them a few times before they even knew where I was,    That is very disconcerting in regards to the multiplayer aspect of the game.   Now this is all on Finnish,  so I can't say it happens on every server,  that server just happens to be where most people go, imo, to play tanks vs other players

No I get it and you are right, it doesn't make a lot of sense. How is he still firing rounds at you if his gunner is dead? Unless we are both missing something, I think the best he should be able to do is drive away and save the rest of his crew and the tank.

And to be honest, they should really fix this because it will make trouble where they don't need it. I think the right thing to do is review everything with the community here and make sure there is nothing being missed ie an obvious explanation. If one can't be found, then I think you should raise higher up. From what you have shown though, it looks a little off to say the least.

 

Edit: I just realized that what I intended to say is not as clear as I intended it to be. The issue here could be whether Tank Crew has a model for another AI crew member to take over control of the gun, but at a much lower rate of fire. I know we have discussed this on the forum, but was it ever part of the Tank Crew model? So after thinking of it a bit more, you would need to see the time interval for the shots that hit your tank. If you had access to that data, and the time interval was greatly increased, then it could be the AI loader in your case. Just mentioning it as a possibility.  

Edited June 3, 2021 by LachenKrieg

[LachenKrieg]

22 minutes ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

No because its mentioned in a book from david fletcher and in several american and british reports from post battle studies, never said it was in that video.

I enjoy this type of discussion judge, and would be happy if you could point me in the direction of the source your using. But all the same, the Sherman had known issues with ammo storage and armor quality, and both of these directly contributed to the issues surrounding trapped crew inside burning tanks. We can't rewrite history, all we can do is respect and acknowledge it.

 

The Sherman is a solid tank. In all its variations, it is my favorite allied tank from WWII. The review video you linked has the PzIV and Sherman tied in a draw. I have my own views on some of the points he makes, but I think they are both very capable weapons systems, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, and I am glad that Russia received copies of the Sherman because otherwise it wouldn't be included in this SIM. BTW, Military History Visualized is an excellent source of information for anything WWII IMO.  

 

But this leads to my point and the reason behind my contribution to this thread. I am critical about the things I care about, and as far as WWII armor simulation goes, its IL2 Tank Crew all the way. I want to see Tank Crew improve on all fronts, and one of the most important aspects of a simulation like this is the gun/armor performance. I realize that there are senior people on this forum that have criticized guys like you and me for taking discussions a little too deep, but while I am all for the fun of it, I see nothing wrong with trying to push things towards improvement.

[KoN_]

6 hours ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

 

i don't think the issue is with the sherman  damage  model, that I can tell, or any other tanks DM,   would definitely need to be tested.  Multiplayer is I believe where there  problems seem to manifest.    I have had several recent sorties on Finnish  where I was able to kill some tanks then got killed.   Of my last 4 sorties that another tank killed me,  they were all short range engagements,  Under 1000m.   In 3 of those sorties,  I was able to put 3 hits into the tank that killed me before they even fired.  The 4th, was a clean shot on the opposing players part before I could fire.   Now if you look at this sortie log,   it does not appear that I was able to damage When I hit them but it was delayed !

 

Now what is Very Interesting,  is that I killed both this Sherman's gunner, then Commander.  Now for my part, when a crew member gets killed, I can no longer move to that position to play.  So I wonder how it is that 12 seconds after I killed his gunner, and 6 after I killed his commander,  was he able to hit me, damage me and take me out, and at the same time I hit him he was damaged more and was also killed ?  Now a bad connection, on either player is one thing, but thats  milliseconds,   should not be 12 seconds later.   I edited out the players names because this is not about who,  but I believe that  for the most part,  anonymous players are players playing through a Steam Account.  I would also say that players with regular names,  may also be using Steam.   Is Steam, and all this kind of delayed damage and hits related ?

 

 

 

This could be down to net code or latency on the server . This is what happening with me . When i shot Three rounds into the Sherman  .

But I'm new to this TC.

I am enjoying it online its very immersive . . There are some very skilled Gunners . 

[Splinty]

22 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

Good post @Cybermat47, but @KoN_ has a point. The nickname the Sherman apparently became known for by German tank crews was "Tommy Cookers" because they caught fire so easily.

Let's keep in mind that the version of the Sherman we have in the game is the M4A2 which is diesel powered and had much less tendency to catch fire than it's gasoline fueled brethren. The ammo storage issues remain. But the tendency to catch fire and then quickly explode that the M4, M4A1, and M4A3 displayed before wet storage ammo racks were introduced is much smaller.

[Voidhunger]

11 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

I just realized that what I intended to say is not as clear as I intended it to be. The issue here could be whether Tank Crew has a model for another AI crew member to take over control of the gun, but at a much lower rate of fire. I know we have discussed this on the forum, but was it ever part of the Tank Crew model?

yes when the loader is killed you can still reload the gun, but of course in reality you will try to disengage or bail out.

Problem in TC is mainly the aftermath after the round penetrates into the tank.

 

I will take again Cologne Sherman as the reference. The tank itself survived 2 penetration without major fire or explosion inside, but the crew didnt.

This I would like to see in all TC tanks.

[LachenKrieg]

Do you mean the Panther, or the Sherman. Because I think crew were able to bail from both tanks.

 

Found this documentary on Amazon prime, it looks like it would be an interesting one to get.

 

 

[LachenKrieg]

28 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

yes when the loader is killed you can still reload the gun, but of course in reality you will try to disengage or bail out.

Problem in TC is mainly the aftermath after the round penetrates into the tank.

 

I will take again Cologne Sherman as the reference. The tank itself survived 2 penetration without major fire or explosion inside, but the crew didnt.

This I would like to see in all TC tanks.

So then as long as the driver (AI/real player) is still alive, the tank is considered still in battle. And as long as either the gunner, commander, or loader are alive, and the gun is not damaged, then it is possible to still get hit from that tank?

[Voidhunger]

I know for sure that when my loader was killed i could still fire, but its slow.

 

Never tested it when multiple crew were killed.

Its very rare to have multiple crew killed in TC and ususally tank is damaged too and you are forced to bail out.

 

 

 

[LachenKrieg]

16 hours ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

 

i don't think the issue is with the sherman  damage  model, that I can tell, or any other tanks DM,   would definitely need to be tested.  Multiplayer is I believe where there  problems seem to manifest.    I have had several recent sorties on Finnish  where I was able to kill some tanks then got killed.   Of my last 4 sorties that another tank killed me,  they were all short range engagements,  Under 1000m.   In 3 of those sorties,  I was able to put 3 hits into the tank that killed me before they even fired.  The 4th, was a clean shot on the opposing players part before I could fire.   Now if you look at this sortie log,   it does not appear that I was able to damage When I hit them but it was delayed !

 

Now what is Very Interesting,  is that I killed both this Sherman's gunner, then Commander.  Now for my part, when a crew member gets killed, I can no longer move to that position to play.  So I wonder how it is that 12 seconds after I killed his gunner, and 6 after I killed his commander,  was he able to hit me, damage me and take me out, and at the same time I hit him he was damaged more and was also killed ?  Now a bad connection, on either player is one thing, but thats  milliseconds,   should not be 12 seconds later.   I edited out the players names because this is not about who,  but I believe that  for the most part,  anonymous players are players playing through a Steam Account.  I would also say that players with regular names,  may also be using Steam.   Is Steam, and all this kind of delayed damage and hits related ?

 

 

 

Looking closer at your report, I have a few questions, and some possible answers/explanations.

 

I am guessing that the damage being reported at 1:15:54 (1.2%), 1:16:32 (0.2%), and 1:17:20 (68.2%) with no tank name attached to it is your tank?

 

And you have whited out all the player names, but is the player reporting damage between 1:17:07 and 1:17:20 the same player reporting damage between 1:17:20 and 1:18:06?

 

So it looks like you received two shots with damage at 1:15:54 (1.2%) and 1:16:32 (0.2%), then you fired a single shot at 1:17:07 killing both the gunner and commander in an M4A2 as well as doing 10.9% and 6.4% damage.

 

You then fire a shot at 1:17:13 doing 6.4% damage, and another shot at 1:17:19 doing 3.8% and 26.4% damage.

 

At 1:17:20, you receive another shot for 68.2% damage. At this point, your tank is at least 70.2% damaged.

 

At the same time, the player you hit at 1:17:07, 1:17:13, and again at 1:17:19, was destroyed at 1:17:20. This means either his engine burnt up and was no longer repairable, or his driver dies from injuries after the tank was hit 3 times. There is only one second between the last time you hit him and the time he dies, so this appears to me to be very possible.

 

The shot you received at 1:17:20 did 68.2% damage and wounded you 99% and you died, meaning your engine was no longer repairable, or your driver died. So again, this looks feasible.

 

But here is where it gets confusing, especially with the player names whited out.

 

The PzIVG ROF is 10, so 6 seconds between shots. You took a shot at 1:17:13, and then 6 seconds later at 1:17:19, so that makes sense. But you could not have taken another shot at 1:17:20.

 

So unless two tanks were side-by-side and your shot penetrated both tanks, the only other way to explain it would be that the damage being reported at 1:17:20 for 3.3% and 6.7% is for the same player you hit at 1:17:19, and the report was just delayed. This could definitely be a server lag thing.

 

It would be interesting to know why we get multiple damage reports from a single shot. I am guessing that it represents the different mechanical systems that can be damaged. If this is the case, it would be nice for the report to include which system was damaged.

 

The question I have, is the player that was destroyed at 1:17:20 the same player that was destroyed at 1:18:06? Everything seems to be explainable except for that second "player destroyed" report at 1:18:06. How does the same player get destroyed twice 46 seconds apart?

 

 

1 hour ago, Voidhunger said:

I know for sure that when my loader was killed i could still fire, but its slow.

 

Never tested it when multiple crew were killed.

Its very rare to have multiple crew killed in TC and ususally tank is damaged too and you are forced to bail out.

 

 

 

I know for certain that a tank is considered knocked out in Tank Crew when either the driver gets killed, or the engine can no longer be repaired. The question is, if the gunner is killed, will your tank still be able to fire shots?

 

Maybe another way to ask it is, if I am playing in the drivers position, and the AI gunner gets killed, can I then enter the gunner station and use the gun? I didn't think we could, and I can't say I have ever seen the commander/loader take over for the gunner. Even if its possible, I don't think after looking closer at @JG1_Wittmann report that this is what happened. The only questionable thing in his report that I see is it appears the same player gets destroyed twice 46 seconds apart.

Edited June 3, 2021 by LachenKrieg

[Voidhunger]

14 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

Maybe another way to ask it is, if I am playing in the drivers position, and the AI gunner gets killed, can I then enter the gunner station and use the gun?

no, you cant.

[JG1_Wittmann]

5 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

Looking closer at your report, I have a few questions, and some possible answers/explanations.

 

I am guessing that the damage being reported at 1:15:54 (1.2%), 1:16:32 (0.2%), and 1:17:20 (68.2%) with no tank name attached to it is your tank?

 

And you have whited out all the player names, but is the player reporting damage between 1:17:07 and 1:17:20 the same player reporting damage between 1:17:20 and 1:18:06?

 

So it looks like you received two shots with damage at 1:15:54 (1.2%) and 1:16:32 (0.2%), then you fired a single shot at 1:17:07 killing both the gunner and commander in an M4A2 as well as doing 10.9% and 6.4% damage.

 

You then fire a shot at 1:17:13 doing 6.4% damage, and another shot at 1:17:19 doing 3.8% and 26.4% damage.

 

At 1:17:20, you receive another shot for 68.2% damage. At this point, your tank is at least 70.2% damaged.

 

At the same time, the player you hit at 1:17:07, 1:17:13, and again at 1:17:19, was destroyed at 1:17:20. This means either his engine burnt up and was no longer repairable, or his driver dies from injuries after the tank was hit 3 times. There is only one second between the last time you hit him and the time he dies, so this appears to me to be very possible.

 

The shot you received at 1:17:20 did 68.2% damage and wounded you 99% and you died, meaning your engine was no longer repairable, or your driver died. So again, this looks feasible.

 

But here is where it gets confusing, especially with the player names whited out.

 

The PzIVG ROF is 10, so 6 seconds between shots. You took a shot at 1:17:13, and then 6 seconds later at 1:17:19, so that makes sense. But you could not have taken another shot at 1:17:20.

 

So unless two tanks were side-by-side and your shot penetrated both tanks, the only other way to explain it would be that the damage being reported at 1:17:20 for 3.3% and 6.7% is for the same player you hit at 1:17:19, and the report was just delayed. This could definitely be a server lag thing.

 

It would be interesting to know why we get multiple damage reports from a single shot. I am guessing that it represents the different mechanical systems that can be damaged. If this is the case, it would be nice for the report to include which system was damaged.

 

The question I have, is the player that was destroyed at 1:17:20 the same player that was destroyed at 1:18:06? Everything seems to be explainable except for that second "player destroyed" report at 1:18:06. How does the same player get destroyed twice 46 seconds apart?

 

 

I know for certain that a tank is considered knocked out in Tank Crew when either the driver gets killed, or the engine can no longer be repaired. The question is, if the gunner is killed, will your tank still be able to fire shots?

 

Maybe another way to ask it is, if I am playing in the drivers position, and the AI gunner gets killed, can I then enter the gunner station and use the gun? I didn't think we could, and I can't say I have ever seen the commander/loader take over for the gunner. Even if its possible, I don't think after looking closer at @JG1_Wittmann report that this is what happened. The only questionable thing in his report that I see is it appears the same player gets destroyed twice 46 seconds apart.

Ok,   I posted the Stat page, whited out name because it's not important who it was, why bring them into it.  It's all the same player,  if you are interested you can look at my sortie log on finnish and see the name.   I was not shot at 1:15  or 1:16   those I believe  were simply collision damage from hitting a tree while repositioning, I think.  I had killed 2 shermans out of a group of 3 @ 2100M.  3rd ducked into forest, moving in my direction.  I was on a hill in trees, lost sight and moved. I had Binocs out, he appeared at treeline , looking through his gunsight, he couldn't see me yet.  I hit him 3 times, 1:17:07, 1:17:13, and 1:17:20, according to the logs.  Also according to the logs, his gunner and commander died at 07  with the first shot.  So it should have been impossible for him to hit me 12 seconds later  at :19.  You can fire if you lose a loader, slower, commander, not sure the effect, but with gunner dead you can not move into the gunner slot to fire.  His system never registered on his end that his gunner died from shot 1, so he was able to fire at me after I hit him again.   Green is my hits to opponent,  Red is opponents hits on me.  So after he was able to 1 shot me due to lag not registering his gunner and commander were dead, his damage finally registered on his end he prob exited and died

[LachenKrieg]

23 hours ago, JG1_Wittmann said:

 

i don't think the issue is with the sherman  damage  model, that I can tell, or any other tanks DM,   would definitely need to be tested.  Multiplayer is I believe where there  problems seem to manifest.    I have had several recent sorties on Finnish  where I was able to kill some tanks then got killed.   Of my last 4 sorties that another tank killed me,  they were all short range engagements,  Under 1000m.   In 3 of those sorties,  I was able to put 3 hits into the tank that killed me before they even fired.  The 4th, was a clean shot on the opposing players part before I could fire.   Now if you look at this sortie log,   it does not appear that I was able to damage When I hit them but it was delayed !

 

Now what is Very Interesting,  is that I killed both this Sherman's gunner, then Commander.  Now for my part, when a crew member gets killed, I can no longer move to that position to play.  So I wonder how it is that 12 seconds after I killed his gunner, and 6 after I killed his commander,  was he able to hit me, damage me and take me out, and at the same time I hit him he was damaged more and was also killed ?  Now a bad connection, on either player is one thing, but thats  milliseconds,   should not be 12 seconds later.   I edited out the players names because this is not about who,  but I believe that  for the most part,  anonymous players are players playing through a Steam Account.  I would also say that players with regular names,  may also be using Steam.   Is Steam, and all this kind of delayed damage and hits related ?

 

 

 

Aside from trying to help you answer what happened, I am also trying to better understand the report itself. So no, I am not interested in knowing who the player is. I just wanted to confirm whether the white-out areas represent the same player, so based on your response then there is more than one thing that doesn't make sense to me here.

 

Sorry I didn't even notice the red and green until you mentioned it, so I was reading the report all wrong.

 

Your question regarding how he was able to shoot you 12 seconds after you kill his gunner is valid. But on the same side of the coin, if you died at 1:17:20, how did you also destroy him at 1:18:06?

 

The only way to explain any of this as far as I can tell would be some type of server lag/internet thing. And if that is the case, then isn't it possible that the time the damage is being reported is different then the time it was actually done?

 

Could he have shot you before you killed his gunner? That would make the most sense to me, and it also matches what you saw. In an earlier post, you said "No,  He was not damaged in my view before I was killed", so the idea that he shot you before you killed his gunner seems to fit. 

 

Do you know what caused 68.2% damage to your tank at 1:17:20? The answer to that question would be helpful in trying to understand what happened.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by LachenKrieg

[JG1_Wittmann]

Ok,  I hit the sherman 3 times before he fired.  The log says my first hit killed the gunner and commander.  That log registered when it happened, 12 seconds before he shot me.  It was prob the outdated hit data thing.  He should not have been able to fire,  the 68% damage he got on me was his 1 shot kill of me.   No, I didn't see obvious damage but know I hit him 3 times, and the log confirms that.   He was destroyed because whrn you exit with dead crew members and the turret doesn't blow off  etc  you are dead, that is what destroyed him not another shot from me.   It all comes down to net lag.   I wish they could code things so if I fire and hit, and my end gets a damage on someone they can not fire until their lag catches up,  in other words, lock their gun from firing until the acknowledge receipt of the hit packet,  because, as we know,   it really only takes 1 shot from closer ranges to kill.  He should have registered as dead at :07,  not later

[LachenKrieg]

That is another bit of the scenario that doesn't add up, because if he shot and caused damage at 1:17:19, then he wouldn't be able to shot again at 1:17:20 because he would have to wait to reload. So if it was damage caused from the shot at 17:19, then why doesn't it show his name like all the other logs? And why wasn't the damage logged at 17:19? You have no way of knowing really because it looks similar to when you hit a tree, or what ever. It just shows red with no name or tank type attached to it.

 

But regardless, it seems to have more to do with lag time in the server anyway. I haven't really had a chance to look at these reports very much, but it would be nice if they could be a little more descriptive of what is being reported. 

[KoN_]

Keep it going gents this is all very interesting . 

 

[moustache]

4 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

Mais peu importe, cela semble avoir plus à voir avec le temps de latence dans le serveur de toute façon. Je n'ai pas vraiment eu l'occasion de beaucoup regarder ces rapports, mais ce serait bien s'ils pouvaient être un peu plus descriptifs de ce qui est rapporté. 

It would also be good if we could have a camera showing the damage and fragmentation of shells (a bit like War Thunder) in post game ...

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Would make a simulator too much arcadish and hand holding if its like warthunder setup and also: would also be a big disadvantage to a skilled player who is in a good spot to be seen and soon hunted down or the player grabs a airplane and bombs that player since where he is is now known.  Would hurt players who play with DiD setting.
 

An option that would be fair is if the game recorded the kills and the player could go online to il-2 website after the server close and see a simple recording of only the damage but no clue or showing where the enemy was.

[moustache]

27 minutes ago, moustache said:

It would also be good if we could have a camera showing the damage and fragmentation of shells (a bit like War Thunder) in post game ...

 

yeah, i say after game, and don't say i want to see who shoot me... just how shot destroy me and how my shot destroy (or not) other...

 

i wish the game become more realistic, and playable without HUD...

Edited June 4, 2021 by moustache

[LachenKrieg]

On 6/3/2021 at 4:13 AM, KoN_ said:

This could be down to net code or latency on the server . This is what happening with me . When i shot Three rounds into the Sherman  .

But I'm new to this TC.

I am enjoying it online its very immersive . . There are some very skilled Gunners . 

I agree @KoN_, the issue Wittmann is raising seems to be some kind of internet time lag issue, or maybe even an issue with the server software itself because in addition to the lag that is obviously there, it seems that some logs are being reported in the wrong order of events.

 

But I am not convinced that the report Wittmann raises explains the issue being brought up by the OP in this thread. I have seen the same issue with the Sherman being able to one-time me after taking a number of hits in SP with both the Panther and PzIV G. So there are no internet/service issues when in SP, and yet the problem persists for me.

 

The other point is if it was a random problem dependent on a players ping/internet connection/server host, then it wouldn't always happen with the Sherman. I have never hit a PzIV G several times from a Sherman with seemingly no effect.

 

So I think there might be more than one issue being discussed here.

 

 

On 6/3/2021 at 10:19 AM, Splinty said:

Let's keep in mind that the version of the Sherman we have in the game is the M4A2 which is diesel powered and had much less tendency to catch fire than it's gasoline fueled brethren. The ammo storage issues remain. But the tendency to catch fire and then quickly explode that the M4, M4A1, and M4A3 displayed before wet storage ammo racks were introduced is much smaller.

All good points @Splinty, which also highlight even further that the issues surrounding ammo storage/armor quality are not based on myth.

 

 

6 hours ago, moustache said:

It would also be good if we could have a camera showing the damage and fragmentation of shells (a bit like War Thunder) in post game ...

 

5 hours ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Would make a simulator too much arcadish and hand holding if its like warthunder setup and also: would also be a big disadvantage to a skilled player who is in a good spot to be seen and soon hunted down or the player grabs a airplane and bombs that player since where he is is now known.  Would hurt players who play with DiD setting.
 

An option that would be fair is if the game recorded the kills and the player could go online to il-2 website after the server close and see a simple recording of only the damage but no clue or showing where the enemy was.

The system wouldn't have to show where the tank taking the shot was located, all it would need to do is show the entry/exit of the shell on the tank being hit. A good example of this can be seen in Gunner Heat PC. This would help to not only resolve issues like the one being discussed in this thread, but would also be a great teaching tool to improve your gunnery skill. I think by not implementing something like this, the Devs are passing up a missed opportunity to add more sex-appeal to the SIM.

Edited June 4, 2021 by LachenKrieg

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Showing where the shell penetrates from gives a good clue the direction the enemy is firing from so next time you know where to look, prefer being clueless myself in such situations as its my fault for not looking good enough.

[LachenKrieg]

You can already do that to some degree anyways. If your right track gets cut for example, then you can guess that he was somewhere off to the right. Comes to about the same thing, and neither situation is giving away a players position, because you wont know from how far the shot was fired, or whether the tank will remain in that same location.

 

And IMO, the hunt is part of the game. The smoke plume from that gun itself can also give a players position away to more than just the guy in the tank being hit. I can imagine that is probably one of the strategies used by pilots, so I don't see how a players ability to see how the shot penetrated would be so problematic when there are already a lot of different ways other players will be able to guess your location.

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Nah many cases you blow up with first shot and you dont know if it was from behind, left or right or front. If you are lucky and get hit like that and still alive then yes. But most cases on finnish server or any server you are clueless, just heard boom and you are dead xD

[moustache]

44 minutes ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Montrer d'où l'obus pénètre donne un bon indice de la direction d'où l'ennemi tire, donc la prochaine fois que vous saurez où regarder, préférez être moi-même désemparé dans des situations telles que c'est de ma faute si je ne suis pas assez beau.

Mmmh, not totally wrong ... but given the number of maps, their size, and the fact that unlike other games (War Thunder for example ...), the maps are realistic and do not contain a million points to repeat net, I doubt that I could locate each position where I died and since where the shot comes ... moreover, is it not already possible to record the parts and to see each vehicle throughout the part (i say that in relation to the youtube video and all that ...)?

[SCG_judgedeath3]

Its possible to see that in ingame recordings but its only possible after you leave the server and go into recordings section in the game  

 

it might not be as often but if you are near a spawn its very short distance and want to remain hidden due to defences around them, and if you play ferdinand or su 152 you mostly sit and wait in many cases and dont move, especielly when you want to close down roads thats important on the map. 
 

in short myself would find it arcadish and not simulator style like il-2 is famous for and making it easier to find enemies with in game replay. After its over when it dont matter: go ahead with those.