Me 410 reference images

[LukeFF]

From http://falkeeins.blogspot.com/2018/07/messerschmitt-me-410-3-wknr-10259-raf.html:

 

 

 

[LF_Gallahad]

50 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

Images

Great finding Luke, I am sure this will very helpful.

 

I am really looking forward to this bird. Can't remember any other sim (besides moded 46) that had it in my time flying in PC. One curious and beautiful looking bird to be sure.

 

Your post reminded me that I also found some graphic material last week, forgot to share it. Lots of details in this post. Seems to be the one in Cosford, RAF museum.

Me 410A-1-U2

 

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234907504-messerschmitt-me-410-hornisse-hornet/

Edited December 2, 2020 by LF_Gallahad

[CUJO_1970]

[sevenless]

Some Me 410 footage starting at 14:15 here:

 

Wings of the Luftwaffe: Bf-110 "Destroyer" - YouTube

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

37mm gun



8 x 50/70 Kg in the bomb bay, also above the top bomb in the middle, looks like that's armored glass behind the nose window?



6 x 20mm configuration?



50mm + 2 x 20mm  (I guess when only the 50mm barrel is protuding the 20mm are taken out? since these ones are shifted forwards as they most likely wouldn't fit in their regular position).



The ZFR 4 sight used in the 410 had both a telescopic and a reflector sight:

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

Some pages of the manual scanned in this website: http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/DETAILSITE/DE/410/me410.htm

It shows detailed schematics of some of the different armament configurations

 

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/DETAILSITE/DE/410/a1rearsights.jpg

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/DETAILSITE/DE/410/a1mk103cutaway.jpg

In the end looks like the BK 5 configuration retains the 20mm as they are listed with the plus sign, and the schematic doesn't show the barrels poking out, so they must fit.

Edited April 7 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[Yogiflight]

On 12/5/2020 at 12:58 AM, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

and the schematic doesn't show the barrels poking out, so they must fit.

The scematic shows two 30mm MK103. The housing of a 50mm gun is much larger, not to forget the ammunition. So I could absolutely imagine, that especially the ammunition needed that much space, that the 20mm guns had to be positioned in front of the 50mm ammunition storage. But that's just a guess.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

35 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

The scematic shows two 30mm MK103. The housing of a 50mm gun is much larger, not to forget the ammunition. So I could absolutely imagine, that especially the ammunition needed that much space, that the 20mm guns had to be positioned in front of the 50mm ammunition storage. But that's just a guess.

I was talking about one of the pictures in the document in the link I posted, which I didn't include in the post.

[Yogiflight]

3 hours ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

I was talking about one of the pictures in the document in the link I posted, which I didn't include in the post.

I see. But it shows very good, what I was talking about. Look at the large ring around the housing, which surely is for the ammunition, I am pretty sure, you have to stay in front of it with the 20mm guns, which might mean they will look outside. Maybe the 20mm guns were not in fitted for this pic, to show the 50mm gun in position.

[LukeFF]

From the Me 210, but there are likely many similarities with the Me 410:

 

https://www.deutscheluftwaffe.de/originale-seitenkonsole-me-210

 

 

Plus, from the same page, a shot of a captured Me 410 in the US:

 

Edited January 17 by LukeFF

[CUJO_1970]

[Avimimus]

The picture with the Mk-103 is a test aircraft? Or an aircraft operating in Norway? Do say - whenever I see an image like that I get my hopes up about the Mk-103 being included (so we don't just have it on the Hs-129)!

[=FB=VikS]

Does anybody have any information about SC1000 use on Me-410?

The most interest is - what kind of tail it had?

 

There  is a only photo of 410 with SC1000 in the bombbay with doors half closed - but its not visible what kind of tail SC1000 had - as it wont fit by length with its original tail.

 

A very few notes in literature about it which i have found.

 

From Me-210 / 410 Zerstorer Units. Robert Forsyth. [Osprey combat aircraft 131]

 

p.75:

"March also saw KG 51 carry out several raids on London, but on the night of 27th-28th the target was the docks in the Western port city of Bristol. Peltz despatched aircraft from KG 2, KG 6, KG 30, KG 54 and KG 100, along with pathfinders from KG 66. A small number ofMe 410s from I. and II./KG 51 also flew on the raid, dropping mainly SC 250s from 7500 m in level flight, although the aircraft of Feldwebel Hans-Erich Seemann of 6. Staffel was loaded with a single SC 1000 that he dropped in a gliding attack. During the course of the mission his Me 410A-1 suffered engine failure, and with only one DB 603 functioning, he managed to make it as far as Soesterberg, where he belly-landed."

 

From "Messerschmitt Bf110-Me-210-Me-410. An Illustrated History. Mankau&Petrick [Schiffer]:

 

p.115

"4/6/43 (GL)

The following decisions have been made in reference to the Me 410:

Investigation into fitting an SC 1000 with reduced fins or a Madelung parabrake in the bomb bay."

 

what is "Madelung parabrake"?

 

p.116

"4/30/1943 (Memorandum for Record No. 74/42 Top Secret, Goring’s Country Manor, Obersalzberg)

Feldmarschall Milch presents the aircraft procurement figures for 1943 and 1944 based on Program 223/1 dated 4/15/43 and provides data on the introduction of new aircraft types.

Me 410—430 in 1943—began production with 25 airframes in April. Presently the bomb bay has capacity for only one SD 1000 (seems like its meant not SD but PC) or smaller equivalent bombs. The bomb bay and/or the SC 1000 is to be modified so that the SC 1000 can also be carried by the Me 410 internally. Speed, firepower, and armor protection are, in Generalfeldmarschall Milch’s view, adequate for conducting daylight missions against England. Oberst Pelz is urgently pushing for the Me 410 to be capable of night fighting operations. Large numbers of Me 410s are expected to be produced in 1944."

 

Maybe someone seen anything or have any more info on this subject?

 

PS: by tech docs - it could carry PC1000 kg bomb - but that is an armour piercing bomb with less than SC500 explosive filling - kinda not much of use untill you will need to sink a battleship or smh.

 

 

 

[6FG_Big_Al]

I have the Me210/410 booklet from Robert Forsyth as well and if I remember correctly there was a part were they spoke about the 1000 kg bombs and that only one specific type could be used. Sadly I couldn't find it again. However there is the PC 1000 mentioned as well on p. 68 that was used during a raid on Southampton. As for the Madelung parabrake, unfortunately I can't help you. Apart from the fact that it has, from the name something to do with a parachute. Do you perhaps have a mention in an original document?

 

Edit:

I was trying to find some manuals and came across those. In the Me-210 A1 "Bedienvorschrift" is the mention about this bomb rack 1000/XI. The PC 1000 kg bomb is mentioned as well as a loadout on page 9. Sadly on the manual of the Me-410 A1 part 0 is only the mention of the bomb rack. It's still interesting since it seems like a slightly different version: "1000/XI B" (page 10). Maybe you're able to find out what was modified on this bomb rack variant or you find the other parts of the Me-410 manual. 

 

 

Me 210 Schusswaffenanlage:

https://stephentaylorhistorian.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/me-210-bedienvorschrift-wa.pdf

Me 210 a1 Bedienvorschrift:

https://stephentaylorhistorian.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/me-210a-1-bedienungsvorschrift-fl.pdf

Me 410 A1 part 0

https://stephentaylorhistorian.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/me-410a-1.pdf

Me 410 A1 part 8

https://stephentaylorhistorian.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/me-410a-1-flugzeug-handbuch-teil8a.pdf

Edited March 31 by 6FG_Big_Al
Me 210/410 manuals added

[Juri_JS]

On 3/30/2021 at 8:38 PM, =FB=VikS said:

what is "Madelung parabrake"?

It's a drogue parachute designed by Georg Madelung. There were tests by the Germans to decelerate falling bombs or for trajectory control of finless bombs with such parachutes. Apparently there were plans to equip finless SC1000 bombs with such parachutes, but I don't know if they were ever used operationally.

 

Edited April 5 by Juri_JS

[Juri_JS]

Apparently SC1000 bombs with parachutes were indeed used by Me-410 units. In "Kampfgeschwader Edelweiss" by Wolfgang Dierich  on page 87 I found this:

 

Quote

"On December 6th the first elements of I. Gruppe moved to Evreux in France for raids on England, using a special, parachute-stabilised 1 ton bomb."

 

Edited April 5 by Juri_JS

[=FB=VikS]

2 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

It's a drogue parachute designed by Georg Madelung. There were tests by the Germans to decelerate falling bombs or for trajectory control of finless bombs with such parachutes. Apparently there were plans to equip finless SC1000 bombs with such parachutes, but I don't know if they were ever used operationally.

 

 

1 hour ago, Juri_JS said:

Apparently SC1000 bombs with parachutes were indeed used by Me-410 units. In "Kampfgeschwader Edelweiss" by Wolfgang Dierich  on page 87 I found this:

 

 

 

Nice find!

Next one  - is to find any pictures of how it looked like, maybe like an LMB mine parachute?

[Juri_JS]

I can't find a picture for the SC 1000, but here's a not very good picture of the SB 1000 parachute bomb.

http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/USA/TManual/9_1985_2/Chap01/FIG_021.HTM

 

Now the question is, if a parachute version of the SC 1000 really existed or if only the SB 1000 parachute bomb was used. So far I found no clear prove for a SC 1000 parachute bomb.

 

Edited April 5 by Juri_JS

[=FB=VikS]

25 minutes ago, Juri_JS said:

I can't find a picture for the SC 1000, but here's a not very good picture of the SD 1000 parachute bomb.

http://michaelhiske.de/Allierte/USA/TManual/9_1985_2/Chap01/FIG_021.HTM

 

Now the question is, if a parachute version of the SC 1000 really existed or if only the SD 1000 was used.

 

You mean SB?, not SD (SD only existed was SD500 and then SD1400)

[Juri_JS]

I meant SB, I've fixed my post.

[AndyJWest]

It may help to note that the British referred to there as 'parachute mines'. If you Google 'SB 1000 parachute mine images' you'll find quite a few photos, though some are probably misidentified.

[Juri_JS]

Here's a better image of the SB 1000 with parachute.

Edited April 5 by Juri_JS

[Juri_JS]

Here's a download link to a document that better shows the shape of the bomb. Suprisingly the cross-section is oval and not round!

https://docspike.com/downloadFile/sb-1000-410_pdf

 

I more and more doubt that a parachute version of the SC 1000 really existed. I can only find reference to SB parachute bombs, but never for SC bombs. In the literature the parachute SB 1000 is sometimes called "SB 1000/410", which indicates that it was specifically created for use with the Me-410 to fit its bomb bay, which could also explain its unusual shape.

Edited April 5 by Juri_JS

[=FB=VikS]

[ZachariasX]

On 3/30/2021 at 8:38 PM, =FB=VikS said:

what is "Madelung parabrake"?

 

It is a type of parachute a ribbon parachute, developped at the research institute "Graf Zeppelin" near Stuttgart. Prof. Madelung and some others were the leading investigators in parachute research. Their work included types of drag chutes to decelerate bombs, as shown in the diagrams posted above. It is a ribbon type of parachute as they are commonly seen today on loads that need to decelerate from high speeds, such as this:

 

You might find useful info here:

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/429971.pdf

 

This type was also used on the Arado, the He-162 etc as drag chutes, a sensible choice for fast vehicles as opposed to conventional designs.

 

 

[=FB=VikS]

11 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/429971.pdf

 

can`t open that link

[Juri_JS]

@Viks, what was the length of the Me-410 bomb bay? There was also a shortened version of the SC 1000 with just 258 cm instead of 280 cm. Would the short version fit into the bomb bay?

Edited April 5 by Juri_JS

[=FB=VikS]

46 minutes ago, Juri_JS said:

@Viks, what was the length of the Me-410 bomb bay? There was also a shortened version of the SC 1000 with just 258 cm instead of 280 cm. Would the short version fit into the bomb bay?

 

~ 2400mm in overall

[LukeFF]

2 hours ago, =FB=VikS said:

can`t open that link

 

Try now:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/11XlaAkCHdL_iQT1-WOIvqEgk9JxI6Wgg/view?usp=sharing

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

@=FB=VikS Here are some images and a description of the SB 1000/410 from a 1944 civil defence pamphlet:

 

 

"The latest addition to the range is a Parachute Bomb, consisting of a cylinder of sheet steel ⅛ in. thick, and oval in cross-section, 2 ft. 7 in. across at the widest and 1 ft. 4½ in. at the narrowest part. The straight sides are 4 ft. long, and in front is a tapered portion terminating in a flat nose and extending overall length to about 6 ft. A square sheet metal box 1 ft. 4 in. wide and 7 in. deep, which has a four-piece canvas cover, which contains the parachute, projects from the casing, to which it is secured. The parachute sits on a wooden platform with four springs underneath to assist ejection. It has a wire stiffening; is about 5 ft. diameter and is attached to the bomb by 32 cords. Parachutes found have been coloured red, green or blue. The bomb is coloured field-grey and marked "SB 1000/410" and "52 A +."

 

The SB 1000/410 was carried in the bomb bay of the Me 410 according to "Messerschmitt Bf-110, Me-210, Me-410" by Mankau & Petrick [Aviatic Verlag] p.319.

 

Here's another drawing (original source unknown):

 

 

I have no proof that an SC 1000 with parachute or shortened tail was available.

 

Note that the Me 410 could carry heavy bombs externally. According to Mankau & Petrick p.319, up to 1 x SC 1800 could be carried below the fuselage as of 15.5.1944.

Edited April 6 by Mitthrawnuruodo

[=FB=VikS]

11 hours ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

Note that the Me 410 could carry heavy bombs externally. According to Mankau & Petrick p.319, up to 1 x SC 1800 could be carried below the fuselage as of 15.5.1944.

 

well - there is a lot of variants listed, but seems not much of them where used (at least operational), and all of them was internal of 250, 500 and 1000kg.

PS: early 410`s had external racks for 4x50 - but it was soon dropped from use (if it ever was used operationally).

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

20 hours ago, =FB=VikS said:

 

well - there is a lot of variants listed, but seems not much of them where used (at least operational), and all of them was internal of 250, 500 and 1000kg.

PS: early 410`s had external racks for 4x50 - but it was soon dropped from use (if it ever was used operationally).

 

That's true. My intention was to say that external mounting is a possible explanation when sources don't specify that a bomb was carried internally (although it seems unlikely in this case). I wouldn't expect these variants modeled in the game.

 

I'm going to keep looking for info about the SC 1000 over Britain.

Edited April 7 by Mitthrawnuruodo

[=FB=VikS]

Well, at least SB1000/410 - looks like a good alternative, as by exception from  civil defence pamphlet - "Parachutes found..."  - seems it was deployed by someone and found somewhere

[Juri_JS]

5 hours ago, =FB=VikS said:

Well, at least SB1000/410 - looks like a good alternative, as by exception from  civil defence pamphlet - "Parachutes found..."  - seems it was deployed by someone and found somewhere

If you really add a parachute bomb, maybe illumination/target marker parachute bombs like the LC 50 can be added too. Such bombs were used by Me-410s over Britain, when pathfinder missions were flown. Ju-88 C-6 used the LC 50 too, for example during train busting missions on the eastern front or on night fighter missions.

Edited April 7 by Juri_JS

[Lofte]

11 hours ago, Juri_JS said:

If you really add a parachute bomb, maybe illumination/target marker parachute bombs like the LC 50 can be added too. Such bombs were used by Me-410s over Britain, when pathfinder missions were flown. Ju-88 C-6 used the LC 50 too, for example during train busting missions on the eastern front or on night fighter missions.

My God, I dream about it and hope on it already 5 years or so. Yes, yes, yes please make these bombs! This is not serios - do night missions without illumination/target marker parachute bombs! We can fly at night with no board radar, even with no radar at all, without ground radiosupport and blind landing systems, but we can't fly without illumination bombs.

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

20 hours ago, =FB=VikS said:

Well, at least SB1000/410 - looks like a good alternative, as by exception from  civil defence pamphlet - "Parachutes found..."  - seems it was deployed by someone and found somewhere

 

Yes - the SB 1000/410 looks like the ultimate bomb carried by the 410. At 80% explosive filling by weight, it should have a very nice blast!

 

Nick Beale's website lists Me 410s of KG 51 carrying SB 1000/410 bombs in a May 1944 raid over Bristol , confirming that it was deployed at least once (if accurate). He cites a few books, but unfortunately I don't have them.

[Juri_JS]

58 minutes ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

 

Yes - the SB 1000/410 looks like the ultimate bomb carried by the 410. At 80% explosive filling by weight, it should have a very nice blast!

 

Nick Beale's website lists Me 410s of KG 51 carrying SB 1000/410 bombs in a May 1944 raid over Bristol , confirming that it was deployed at least once (if accurate). He cites a few books, but unfortunately I don't have them.

 

What I find confusing in the report is this:

Quote

0150–0205    5 Me 410    II./KG 51    9 x SB 1000/410 parachute bombs from 7500–6000 m

How can five Me-410 drop nine SB 1000/410 bombs? I doubt more than one could be carried in the bomb bay. Were some of the bombs carried external? Or maybe it's just a typo.

 

 

[VO101Kurfurst]

On 3/30/2021 at 8:38 PM, =FB=VikS said:

Maybe someone seen anything or have any more info on this subject?

 

Bomb options listed in January 1944 type sheet:

... and bomb options from 15 May 1944:

 

Drawing of External SC 1800 installation

Edited April 8 by VO101Kurfurst

[JG_deserteagle540]

Me410 with BK5 cannon:

Me410 with 21cm missiles:

 

[JG_deserteagle540]

Layout with 2 MK103 + 2 MG151/20 +2 MG131