AI Wingmen Failure to Engage?

[Varibraun]

Please discuss in this thread if you are seeing this behavior so that we can track and report to Devs if it is in fact a bug.

 

Here is an example:

 

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Varibraun

[PatrickAWlson]

Please zip up missions and post them here.  I am linking this to a topic on the main board.

[TheSNAFU]

I flew two missions today in which I saw my wingmen ferociously attack enemy bombers with and without fighter escort. In fact in the second one one I had a hard time getting licks in on the bombers cause two and three of my guys were ripping em a new one. 
 

Not saying there isn’t an issue in some circumstances but I haven’t seen it. 

Edited November 7, 2020 by TheSNAFU

[Varibraun]

2 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Please zip up missions and post them here. 

 

Pat - I had my PWCG set to delete all missions.  But I have attached the Error Zip from my mission where I couldn't get the AI to attack the unescorted bomber in case it allows you extract that mission to post.

 

I flew 2 Hurricane PWCG missions today (thank you!), but I was a new Szt pilot and never had lead so couldn't give any commands.  In both of those missions, the novice A/I attacked bombers on its own, even if ineffectively as expected.  I will try to fly some more with my other squadrons where I am lead to see if maybe it is lead or commands related. 

 

27 minutes ago, TheSNAFU said:

Not saying there isn’t an issue in some circumstances but I haven’t seen it. 

 

Were you flying as leader and, if so, did you give an attack or other commands?

Aces over Kuban202011052111299.zip

[TheSNAFU]

Yes and yes

[Varibraun]

22 minutes ago, TheSNAFU said:

Yes and yes

 

Thanks - Maybe that helps Pat and Co. rule out potential causes if it is an issue.

[PatrickAWlson]

I saw my own wingmen fail to engage one time and enemy fail to fight aggressively one  time.  Other than that they seem fine.  So it seems to be happening on occasion but not always.  Posted a mission in the main board.

[Varibraun]

Yes, definitely not all the time.  I had 3 missions yesterday, 2 on Moscow Map with Hurricanes and 1 in Kuban without seeing the issue (the only thing odd I noticed was the my flight would hold well above me if I was flying low and issued the "follow me" command).

 

I think @Ram399's post below in the main thread makes a lot of sense, this is very similar to my flight's failure to engage the bombers which were well away from the mission waypoints.  I imagine this may happen more in PWCG because on the randomness of flights intersecting anywhere in the mission engagement area (one of your best features BTW).

 

 

[vincentmoy]

4 minutes ago, Varibraun said:

Yes, definitely not all the time.  I had 3 missions yesterday, 2 on Moscow Map with Hurricanes and 1 in Kuban without seeing the issue (the only thing odd I noticed was the my flight would hold well above me if I was flying low and issued the "follow me" command).

 

I think @Ram399's post below in the main thread makes a lot of sense, this is very similar to my flight's failure to engage the bombers which were well away from the mission waypoints.  I imagine this may happen more in PWCG because on the randomness of flights intersecting anywhere in the mission engagement area (one of your best features BTW).

 

 

I had the AIs stay high when I fly low.

 

What I come up with is that since they stack below the lead, they’re “smart” enough to want certain altitude before following you.

 

I ended up climbing to about 6-700 meters and issued the command again and they dropped from altitude to fall behind me

[istari6]

I've seen this behavior in Flying Circus since August.  See following post: https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/59013-pwcg-for-flying-circus/page/8/

 

"Pat,

 

Many thanks for creating PWCG for Flying Circus!  My friends and I have been using your BoX version for some great campaigns together in co-op.  Now diving into SP with Flying Circus.  

 

I'm on my 4th mission with No.24 Sqn, and the last three missions have all had the same pattern.  We get jumped by German aircraft, which then all focus on me (the leader).  Meanwhile, my S.E.5a wingmen circle about and don't engage.   The result is that I'm often effectively outnumbered 5:1, which makes for an extremely difficult and unrealistic battle. 

 

Is there something I need to do for friendly AI to engage enemy AI?  I've tried using Pilot hand signals and Flight Orders, but nothing I do will get my wingmen to fight.  I've also seen them flying straight and level with Germans behind them until they're shot down.

 

Another donation made to your account BTW as a thank you for this great program."

 

There ultimately wasn't a solution in that thread, so I stopped the Flying Circus campaign until the AI issue could be resolved.  I don't have the mission files unfortunately, but this was repeated behavior across multiple missions.

 

Edited November 8, 2020 by istari6

[Varibraun]

Flew several missions today without seeing any problems.  I believe all engagements were near waypoints.

[Varibraun]

@PatrickAWlson Attached mission has a pretty good example of what we have been discussing. 

 

I also have a 6 minute track that I can't figure out how to compress enough (or edit down) to post it since it zips to 8mb.  In the track, you can see that my Yak flight remains above the fight despite several commands asking them to engage.  Fortunately, the 109s were pretty passive too as they were headed home (although one that finally took a shot at me, followed me all the way back across my lines with his nav lights on and my flight continuing to fly right above him without engaging).

 

Of note - this engagement happened at the end of the mission after hitting my egress waypoint and was approx 40k from the next waypoint.

PWCG.zip

[vincentmoy]

1 hour ago, Varibraun said:

@PatrickAWlson Attached mission has a pretty good example of what we have been discussing. 

 

I also have a 6 minute track that I can't figure out how to compress enough (or edit down) to post it since it zips to 8mb.  In the track, you can see that my Yak flight remains above the fight despite several commands asking them to engage.  Fortunately, the 109s were pretty passive too as they were headed home (although one that finally took a shot at me, followed me all the way back across my lines with his nav lights on and my flight continuing to fly right above him without engaging).

 

Of note - this engagement happened at the end of the mission after hitting my egress waypoint and was approx 40k from the next waypoint.

PWCG.zip 699.14 kB · 0 downloads

I found telling them to "patrol the area" sometimes help

[itsmecamille]

Yesterday I had a weird instance of AI not engaging: I was following an AI flight lead and AI wingmen, and then all wingmen flew off to engage EA while the leader happily continued to follow waypoints. I've still got that mission file so I could upload potentially, although I'm not sure whether this is the same issue in fact

 

A couple of days ago I flew a mission where fighters from both side crossed path at roughly the same altitude and did not engage - at first when I spotted the situation I though there was a furball, and when I approached I just saw the lot fly past each other - they could have wave at each other at that distance, so something was clearly going very wrong - unfortunately I can't remember for use which mission file this corresponded to (too many careers at the same time I guess...).

[PatrickAWlson]

Remember that not engaging could be very intentional.  A flight of fighters could be on a ground attack mission, in which case they would not engage.  They might not even have any ordnance if they spawn on the return leg.  It's hard to tell whether this is intentional or not without looking at the mission file.  When I posted the mission where the Hurricanes did not engage I did look at the mission file to very low priority waypoints.

 

As for your your flight mates, if you are on a fighter mission then you know they should engage.

 

 

[DaneLicanin]

I had the problem while i was Flight Lead with two other 109's. I saw while patroling a group of 6 IL2 and ordered them to engage, but they were just flying around somwhere. After a while they "attacked" the group, but it was more like strafing than attacking.

[Varibraun]

On 11/11/2020 at 12:18 AM, vincentmoy said:

I found telling them to "patrol the area" sometimes help

 

Thank you again Vincent - I want to report that over the past couple of weeks this command has been very helpful in getting my wingmen to engage when the "attack" command fails.  

[Harlequin]

Hi.

 

I've just flew around 30 missions in the career mode (not pwcg) as leader and had good results with commanding the AI.  Unfortunately I've not had much luck in PWCG.

The main issue is the ai flight, when I'm leader, not engaging.  I've tried the engage nearest air target and patrol area commands but they often just follow me, usually from high altitude.

Throughout the flight it's like there are 2 types of "following" that they do.  In some parts they stay in tight formation and move with me at the altitude im at, moving up and down with me. For other times they stay with me but don't pay attention to my altitude, (e.g in an fw190 with waypoint altitude set at 6000m approx) they'll stay above me and behind while I climb up, but won't follow me down.  They won't engage while in this high following state.  On occasional ground attacks where mission waypoints are at a lower altitude, I've noticed the opposite whereby they don't follow me up.  I wonder if it's something to do with the ai not wanting to deviate from following you at certain waypoints?

Ive also noticed that the ai wingmen and ai flight leader(i.e if you're not flight lead) don't make intital radio calls upon contact the way they to in the regular campaign.  The ai will call out that they see the enemy and the engaging but these initial calls don't seem to appear in pwcg.

 

It's an amazing add on to the game as the non leader missions I've been flying have been amazing.  Just thought I'd relay my experiences as hope this might get sorted at some point.

 

Many thanks for all your work on pwcg pat, I really appreciate it.

 

 

[Varibraun]

2 hours ago, cosg_Paul said:

Just thought I'd relay my experiences as hope this might get sorted at some point.

 

Many thanks for all your work on pwcg pat, I really appreciate it.

 

FWIW just for verification, I have seen this same behavior as you describe here.  It could be my imagination, but it seems like it got better for a while after the OP and has come back.  Regardless, I have noticed it again more frequently recently.

[Stonehouse]

I've just watched a tacview replay of this issue. I'm the lead of 4 P51s and patrolling near Gennep we met 4 Bf109s.

 

I didn't notice them until late as we'd just been getting AAA'd so we were weaving about a bit. So when I did notice them they were climbing up to us and were off to the rear quarter and I led the flight into a climbing turn to try to get a bit more height and face them before I told the AI to attack nearest air target and went for the 109 I'd decided to go after. After a bit I noticed my AI were still in close echelon and trying to regain formation and flying right through the fight without seeming to care. I did try several other flight lead commands like cover me, return to mission (which was patrol for enemies) and attack nearest air target again.

 

Eventually one of the 3 AI P51s was attacked and hit by a 109 and that P51 starts to maneuver separately (I think, he could also be just trying to rejoin the formation) but the other 2 seem to remain oblivious. The now fighting P51 eventually dies taking a 109 with him (collision or perhaps locked controls I think) and the 109s start to attack the remaining 2. One gets shot down and one manages to evade and retreat. All three seemed to be purely defensive and as far as I can tell from the tacview replay didn't fire. This could be just because of the way they had been flying. Note that other AI flights in the mission from both sides were shooting like mad, C47 dropping troops and P38, Spitfires and FW190s engaging ground targets and each other so it seems to be limited to the player flight. Don't laugh too hard at my poor shooting if you watch the acmi please  I was spending a lot of time looking back wondering when the AI were going to help out!

 

Mission plus the two relevant acmi's below.

 

Oddly I later flew a Tempest campaign mission (which ended with me dead  ) hitting a truck and supply column and when I gave the command to attack nearest ground target the AI all went off like good little lambs to the slaughter and took out 80% of the column in one bombing pass of 8 planes. 

 

So maybe it could be a game bug not PWCG? Don't know. Maybe Pat can see something in the mission.

 

P51.7zip Mustang 1944-09-26.2021-11-23_17-37-11_02.acmi.7zip Mustang 1944-09-26.2021-11-23_17-37-11_03.acmi.7zip

Edited November 24, 2021 by Stonehouse

[Varibraun]

10 hours ago, Stonehouse said:

So maybe it could be a game bug not PWCG? Don't know. Maybe Pat can see something in the mission.

 

Great and detailed post Stonehouse.  With your attachments, you should link this post over in the "Tech Issues & Bug Reports - Autopilot AI" Forum to see if you can get some Dev attention back on this.  I saw that Pat is also trying again too to see what he can find out.  When this first came up last year I know that @-DED-Rapidus was looking at some tracks, so I am pretty sure they are aware and care.

[PatrickAWlson]

I started a "Please document AI Behavior" thread in the complaints section.  I know what I know, and that is admittedly limited.  Without documentation, getting the best AI behavior in a mission is guesswork.  In the past I have spent hours trying to achieve a particular behavior.  To put it plainly, I'm done until such time as behavior is documented.

[Stonehouse]

Cross posted as requested.

[-DED-Rapidus]

@Stonehouse, I need the entire track folder, there is a mission and a file to play. You have only a file from TacView in your archives.

[Stonehouse]

3 hours ago, -DED-Rapidus said:

@Stonehouse, I need the entire track folder, there is a mission and a file to play. You have only a file from TacView in your archives.

I'll see what I can do. I believe I still have them although the trk files are very large. Just so I am clear on what you are after - you want the trk files and the folders and contents thereof that match each trk file?

 

Is it just the trk files that correspond to period range shown in the tacview acmi I have already provided or all the trks I have from that mission? .......which likely cover from take off to where I RTB. So if all trk's that could be several Gb's

 

<edit>

I do have them still. If I just provide the trks and corresponding folders that match the period of the acmi's already given then it compresses to about 168mb's

So before I figure out a place to upload them to please confirm exactly what you would like me to provide. I have 6 trk's from that mission most 300MB or more in size. Not sure I can upload GBs in one go if you want them all. In case it makes a difference I use the battle recorder 3rd party utility to restart recording at around the 500mb size although if nothing much is happening I will manually stop and start recording, hence the sub 500 mb size for some tracks.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Stonehouse

[-DED-Rapidus]

@Stonehouse, you can archive files and transfer the archive via the file sharing service.

[Stonehouse]

1 hour ago, -DED-Rapidus said:

@Stonehouse, you can archive files and transfer the archive via the file sharing service.

@-DED-Rapidus

Ok I sent you a link via PM for the trk's and folders that correspond to the time period covered by the tacview acmi files. I hope this is what you wanted as you didn't really say. I had to use dropbox as the zip file is around 170MB and too big for the forum in a post and I don't know of another file sharing service built into this forum.

 

If you need more I have some trk's that cover earlier and a short period after I break off to head back to base. 

 

If you could please let me know when you have downloaded the files so I can clean up as my dropbox has limited space.

 

Hope it helps!

 

 

PS I don't know if you will be able to watch the track. Replaying it now I noticed that I was using the dynamic smoke and units mod to spawn small amounts of random smoke and fires for better atmosphere and immersion. I think the track captures this and so may not be usable for you unless you use the same mod.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Stonehouse

[Stonehouse]

Ok I have created a small pack of the two mods required to view the tracks. One is modifying the AAA gunners dispersion and the other is the one I mentioned in my last post about spawning random smoke. I do not believe either of these would change the behaviour of AI pilots and you can see that the enemy AI pilots attack aggressively but I understand if you regard these tracks as not usable to try to track the possible bug. I use jsgme to manage mods but I am sure you know how to handle them anyway.

 

 

 

 

trackMODS.zip