Zen3 Ryzen 5000 serie

[I.JG3_CDRSEABEE]

7 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

The 5600X that @LF_Gallahad has should already remove the VR CPU bottleneck in Ultra. My 5900X does, and IL-2 performs similar.

Any issues with the AMD CPU and VR? Thinking about the i9 9900k instead of AMD. Or should I wait until issues are resolved?

[chiliwili69]

33 minutes ago, CDRSEABEE said:

Any issues with the AMD CPU and VR?

No, there is no issues with AMD CPUs and VR.

Fenris just said that with the new Zen3 CPUs (which has been proved better than 9900K) the performance bottleneck we had with VR will be gone. Because the bottleneck in VR was mainly caused by CPU.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

After I don't know how long time I will gonna try a RED team cpu. This build would be for VR and 4K gameplay also so going for 5900X would not be overkill don't you guys think? 
BTW any good motherboard recommendation (do no need wifi or backward compatibility)?

Edited November 24, 2020 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Jaws2002]

Get yourself an X570 motherboard with strong power delivery system. Most companies have a few versions of X570 motherboards, towards the top of their stack, that are really strong.

 

 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

After I don't know how long time I will gonna try a RED team cpu. This build would be for VR and 4K gameplay also so going for 5900X would not be overkill don't you guys think? 
BTW any good motherboard recommendation (do no need wifi or backward compatibility)?

 

MSI X570 Tomahawk WIFI definitely.

 

It's a $200 board with +$300 VRMs (Voltage Regulator Modules, Power delivery) and all M.2 lanes are PCIe4. Really good devil to own, MSI's apology to the users for their ridiculous past before. 

[chiliwili69]

1 hour ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

This build would be for VR and 4K gameplay also so going for 5900X would not be overkill don't you guys think?

 

For VR you need basically a good CPU in the first place (to not be bottlenecked in dense scenes). Then also a powerfull GPU to increase SS to a good level or run in monitor 4K.

 

You can take a look of the benchmarks thread. A simple R5 5600X with a B550 Mobo is really close to a R9 5900X with a X570. We still want to see how far the 5900X and 5950X can go with more OC and tunning.

 

[dburne]

If I were building a new rig today I would certainly be taking a very hard look at the Ryzen.

Not going to do away with my current build just yet though, so I will just admire those that are able to run IL-2 in all it's glory in VR without any re-projection for at least another 

year or two.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

2 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

For VR you need basically a good CPU in the first place (to not be bottlenecked in dense scenes). Then also a powerfull GPU to increase SS to a good level or run in monitor 4K.

 

You can take a look of the benchmarks thread. A simple R5 5600X with a B550 Mobo is really close to a R9 5900X with a X570. We still want to see how far the 5900X and 5950X can go with more OC and tunning.

 

 

 MSFS 2020 in VR - the 5600X might be not enough... that the question?

Edited November 24, 2020 by 1PL-Husar-1Esk

[Gambit21]

I've tried 6 times to get a 5800X into my Amazon cart after they drop (thanks to the link that Luke posted) but the damn cart won't populate with it.

I'm talking 100 plus refresh/retries dammit. 

[chiliwili69]

9 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

 MSFS 2020 in VR - the 5600X might be not enough... that the question?

 

Well, here you have a table for MSF2020. The test is in FullHD so you can see the power of each CPU (GPU not bottlenecked):

 

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/65707-zen3-ryzen-5000-serie/?do=findComment&comment=1019479

https://technosports.co.in/2020/11/05/first-real-benchmarks-of-new-ryzen-5000-series-processors-spotted/?amp

 

[robbiec]

Just got word that my 5950X has shipped ?

But annoyed that I can't find a 6800XT for love nor money or even a 3080 anywhere! It could be the God's telling me to go for a 6900XT on the 5th Dec ???

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Guys what I see in benchmarks for 4k gaming the i9-10900K is performing same as Ryzen 9 5950X and will cost me 1/3 less. VR is more than 4K (G2) so that there should be similar performance  as 4K. 

[robbiec]

47 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Guys what I see in benchmarks for 4k gaming the i9-10900K is performing same as Ryzen 9 5950X and will cost me 1/3 less. VR is more than 4K (G2) so that there should be similar performance  as 4K. 

But step out of the cockpit for a while and you'll see where the extra money comes in. Bit of VM work, throwing some 80MB Raw files about, some compiling, etc, etc - if you're building a machine for gaming and gaming only then there is nothing wrong with Intel except perhaps bang per W. 

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

29 minutes ago, robbiec said:

But step out of the cockpit for a while and you'll see where the extra money comes in. Bit of VM work, throwing some 80MB Raw files about, some compiling, etc, etc - if you're building a machine for gaming and gaming only then there is nothing wrong with Intel except perhaps bang per W. 

 

More for read team - I could upgrade my cpu to "what ever be available in the future" for socket AM4. Where Intel socket life is short...  I'm careful because I heard that there is issue whit HP Reverb G2 and x570 mobo chipset. Need to find if it's true.

[Jaws2002]

24 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

I could upgrade my cpu to "what ever be available in the future" for socket AM4.

 

I think this is the last generation of CPU supported by the AM4 socket. Next gen CPUs will come with new socket and DDR5 memory support.

[Gambit21]

It’s hard to argue for an Intel CPU right now.

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

55 minutes ago, Jaws2002 said:

 

I think this is the last generation of CPU supported by the AM4 socket. Next gen CPUs will come with new socket and DDR5 memory support.

There could be more for 5000 series,  but yes to use ddr5 new mobo is 4 sure.

[robbiec]

I'm throwing a 5950X in lieu of a 3900X tonight. Need to drain loop and try not to soak anything. Cooling is a bit left of field with an Aquacomputer Cuplex sitting on top of an Asus Crosshair VIII Hero X570 board. Just dropped the latest bios for it (2702) will report back on how I get on. 

@1PL-Husar-1Esk There are rumours that we might get another revision of cpu on AM4, believe the I/O controller on chip doesn't care too much about the RAM gen (ie it can support both) so could be a stepping stone to AM5. Early days yet though, the 5000 series is just out ?

[robbiec]

Popped it in, recognised straight away and been running Cinebench R20 to get a feel for temps and see if anything funky showing up. Set the memory (2 x 8GB Team Group 8 Pack B-Dies) to 3600 with 16-17-16-16-39 (random no's I threw in, relatively relaxed) and Fblk of 1800 and up she booted. My saved profiles are null and void. Multi core just scraped the 10K with a 10017 but the temps just touched 60C max and back down to 30C within 90 seconds. Deffo need to spend a few hours dialling it in - there is a hint of hesitancy when opening stuff and that is normally down to memory. One of the CCDs is running about 8C hotter than the other so might tune up the Cuplex a bit. 

Aida giving low mem scores too with 53, 51 and 47 GB/s for Read, Write and Copy respectively and a 67ns latency which is well off what I was expecting. More to come for sure! 

 

Edit: PBO manually set @+200 and sure enough I've a core boosting to 5.2Ghz, latency down to 61ns and 10267 in C20. Feels a bit snappier too ?

Edited November 29, 2020 by robbiec
Update

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

Very nice! Remember to take with you that 10% performance boost everyone mentioned when using Dual Ranked memory. Yours is Single Ranked from what I can tell. Or get super tight timings to make up for it. The timings must be correct and fit to each other as well, they don't fit properly, that 17 has no business in there, but I guess you know that already anyway

 

 

Whether the bad RAM setting is responsible for the heat of the CCD or  just uneven load, check the stress load of your benches.

 

Here you can check for your boards memory topology so you'll see whether you want to get 2x16GB (daisy chained) or a new 4x8GB kit (T-topology). 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1wmsTYK9Z3-jUX5LGRoFnsZYZiW1pfiDZnKCjaXyzd1o/

 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[ZachariasX]

1 hour ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Here you can check for your boards memory topology

If you had free choice, what would be your preferred memory configuration (parallel vs. T-topology and single vs. dual ranked) for 32 GB boxes? I don‘t see you stating the mainboard you are using.

[chiliwili69]

I got an 5600X and it should arrive in a couple of weeks. I am therefore looking for the right Mobo and RAM.

For RAM I am going to go for just 16Gb (IL-2 doesn´t need more and I don´t care other games or apps). And also I sould not look at freqs higher than 4000 since the maximum FCLK is 2000MHz. So I went to max freq with minimum CL.

 

 

For RAM I was thinking of this one: G.Skill Trident Z Neo 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3800 CL14 Memory

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/YYdrxr/gskill-trident-z-neo-16-gb-2-x-8-gb-ddr4-3800-memory-f4-3800c14d-16gtzn

 

For Mobo I am really lost. I think a B550 in ATX format would be enough for my needs (just IL-2 VR). 

 

I am considereing the MSI MPG B550 Gaming Edge,

but I saw other models like

GIGABYTE B550 AORUS Elite

ASUS ROG Strix B550-F Gaming

 

Apart from having enough USB port for all my devices (HOTAS, rudder, Simshaker, VR, ) , is there any other important considerations I should take into account?

 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

I have an MSI MAG X570 Tomahawk WiFi, Bios .151. Daisy-Chain topology.

 

I use a RAM-kit of F4-3600C16D-32GTZN. I manually put them to the following timings (for voltage, the "max" column)

13 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

I got an 5600X and it should arrive in a couple of weeks. I am therefore looking for the right Mobo and RAM.

For RAM I am going to go for just 16Gb (IL-2 doesn´t need more and I don´t care other games or apps). And also I sould not look at freqs higher than 4000 since the maximum FCLK is 2000MHz. So I went to max freq with minimum CL.

 

 

For RAM I was thinking of this one: G.Skill Trident Z Neo 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3800 CL14 Memory

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/YYdrxr/gskill-trident-z-neo-16-gb-2-x-8-gb-ddr4-3800-memory-f4-3800c14d-16gtzn

 

[...]

 

Apart from having enough USB port for all my devices (HOTAS, rudder, Simshaker, VR, ) , is there any other important considerations I should take into account?

 

 

2x16GB gets your CPU up to 10% quicker. There's a large discussion on the internet about this right now. It's tied to the new Ryzen Generation benefiting from Dual Ranked RAM.

 

With the RAM you picked, that may throttle the system and lead to frametime fluctuation downwards. The RAM I mentioned may allow for tighter timings, I haven't pushed the boundaries yet. https://pcpartpicker.com/product/gqkgXL/

 

For the Motherboard, VRMs are important, to feed the Zen3 properly. That's why I went with the X570 Tomahawk. It is also important you pick one with Daisy Chain topology if you only want to use 2 DIMMs.

 

Addendum: Also, it has the full PCIe4 layout which I wanted, I am running 2x 1TB PCIe4 M.2 SSDs and want SAM to work properly (with the 3080 or the 6900, yet to see).

Edited November 29, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[HunDread]

I am thinking similar to Chilli with possibly 16 gb RAM and B550.

 

So my questions:

 

2 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

2x16GB gets your CPU up to 10% quicker. There's a large discussion on the internet about this right now. It's tied to the new Ryzen Generation benefiting from Dual Ranked RAM.

 

Do you mean the size of the RAM here or that it is dual ranked? So can 2x8 give same benefit if it is dual ranked?

 

2 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

For the Motherboard, VRMs are important, to feed the Zen3 properly. That's why I went with the X570 Tomahawk. It is also important you pick one with Daisy Chain topology if you only want to use 2 DIMMs

 

If the B550 has similar VRMs and Daisy Chain topology is there still any benefit of x570 if we only consider performance?

[Jaws2002]

6 hours ago, HunDread said:

If the B550 has similar VRMs and Daisy Chain topology is there still any benefit of x570 if we only consider performance?

 

 The b550 chipset it's using gen4 PCIE only for CPU connect and graphics card slot, while the lines storage are all gen PCIE 4 gen3. X570 used gen 4 lines lines for storage as well. On my board i have two m.2 and three PCIE slots that are all runing at gen 4 speed.

 So, if you have, or plan to buy a gen4 NVME ssd, on b550 it will only run at gen 3 speed. 

 In game you won't notice too much difference. The difference is very noticeable when you transfer large files.

Newer gen4 SSD's are loading games faster as well.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Jaws2002

[chiliwili69]

9 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

want SAM to work properly (with the 3080 or the 6900, yet to see).

 

I understand that SAM will work equally in B550 MoBos than in X570 Mobos since both use PCIEgen4 for CPU and GPU. Right?

9 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

2x16GB gets your CPU up to 10% quicker. There's a large discussion on the internet about this right now. It's tied to the new Ryzen Generation benefiting from Dual Ranked RAM

 

From the Harware Unboxed video about RAM it is still not totally clear the benefit of Dual Rank. IS there any other place where this is explained/tested better?

Do you mean that if I go for 2x8Gb (or 4x4Gb) I can not benefit from Dual Rank thing?

[1PL-Husar-1Esk]

Looking at 4K gaming there is no real difference (1-2 fps) if you compare Ryzen 5 5600x / R7 5800x / R9 5900x , RTX 3090 gives same fps for AMD 5000 series. I guessing same would be in VR?

 

MSF 2020 ultra 

[SCG_Fenris_Wolf]

4 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

I understand that SAM will work equally in B550 MoBos than in X570 Mobos since both use PCIEgen4 for CPU and GPU. Right?

 

From the Harware Unboxed video about RAM it is still not totally clear the benefit of Dual Rank. IS there any other place where this is explained/tested better?

Do you mean that if I go for 2x8Gb (or 4x4Gb) I can not benefit from Dual Rank thing?

I've seen comparisons in which several VR games were benched 2 weeks ago, among them MSFS2020, but I didn't keep the link. There was a between 5 to 10% performance uplift, indeed. The largest difference was added at the low 1% and 0.1% framedips. They were almost eliminated in comparison.

Edited November 29, 2020 by SCG_Fenris_Wolf

[I.JG3_CDRSEABEE]

Is anyone's CPU not bottlenecking running max everything? If so what is it? 

 

I think TC would be the most taxing on the CPU with all the ground units. I was running the scripted campaign for TC and was really taxing.

[chiliwili69]

12 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Looking at 4K gaming there is no real difference (1-2 fps) if you compare Ryzen 5 5600x / R7 5800x / R9 5900x , RTX 3090 gives same fps for AMD 5000 series. I guessing same would be in VR?

 

Running the benchmarks at 4K you became bottlenecked by GPU, not CPU. That´s why there is no difference between the tested CPUs.

 

To really measure the CPU you need to use a low resolution (1080p) son then GPU is not the bottleneck and you can easily compare CPUs.

 

But in VR, the building scene has to be done twice, so even if the resolution is comparable to 4K, the CPU might be the constraint. That´s why you need a powerfull CPU in VR.

[Ribbon]

I'm not much into this subject like some of you guys are but testing high end cpu on 1080p aside raw numbers is pointless.

Nobody going for these expensive high-end cpu's wont play at 1080p, it'll be in 1440p minimum and mostly at 4k or above when it comes to VR.

In the end it all matters how will it perform on apps the one is using and in that case intel is still safer bet being on pair in performance (4k) with amd or even if its 0.5-5% weaker (1440p) issues with amd mobo (for reverb g2) and drivers overall is not worth it at the moment (for me at least, until amd and app developers sort things out).

User-end experience and result is what matters!

Even if true what @chiliwili69 said VR being bound to cpu cos it's two picture rendering it's still 2x1440p minimum and not 2x1080p so difference should be also minimum.

 

-stock 10700k vs 5800x at 1440p goes ~0.5-2.5% performance difference

-stock 10700k vs 5800x at 4k on pair

-amd: mobo and driver issues

-intel: no driver or mobo issues

Here are some results (at 1080p/1440p/4k) bellow:

 

When it comes to gpu's story is similar, at higher resolution amd gpu's losing it's lead vs nvidia.

I'm not amd or intel fanboy but i took all of this in consideration so in current build i stayed on intel until amd sort all of these drawbacks and get more mature being on the throne.....if soo my next build will be amd.

True shine of amd could be in the next cpu/gpu generation when app developers adjust themself to the new king.

Just my amateur-ish observation which could easly be wrong ?

Anyway good and exciting times for us consumers!

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by =VARP=Ribbon

[I.JG3_CDRSEABEE]

2 hours ago, =VARP=Ribbon said:

I'm not much into this subject like some of you guys are but testing high end cpu on 1080p aside raw numbers is pointless.

Nobody going for these expensive high-end cpu's wont play at 1080p, it'll be in 1440p minimum and mostly at 4k or above when it comes to VR.

In the end it all matters how will it perform on apps the one is using and in that case intel is still safer bet being on pair in performance (4k) with amd or even if its 0.5-5% weaker (1440p) issues with amd mobo (for reverb g2) and drivers overall is not worth it at the moment (for me at least, until amd and app developers sort things out).

User-end experience and result is what matters!

Even if true what @chiliwili69 said VR being bound to cpu cos it's two picture rendering it's still 2x1440p minimum and not 2x1080p so difference should be also minimum.

 

-stock 10700k vs 5800x at 1440p goes ~0.5-2.5% performance difference

-stock 10700k vs 5800x at 4k on pair

-amd: mobo and driver issues

-intel: no driver or mobo issues

Here are some results (at 1080p/1440p/4k) bellow:

 

When it comes to gpu's story is similar, at higher resolution amd gpu's losing it's lead vs nvidia.

I'm not amd or intel fanboy but i took all of this in consideration so in current build i stayed on intel until amd sort all of these drawbacks and get more mature being on the throne.....if soo my next build will be amd.

True shine of amd could be in the next cpu/gpu generation when app developers adjust themself to the new king.

Just my amateur-ish observation which could easly be wrong ?

Anyway good and exciting times for us consumers!

 

So you went I7 10700k and what mobo?

RAM?

Edited November 30, 2020 by CDRSEABEE

[Ribbon]

45 minutes ago, CDRSEABEE said:

So you went I7 10700k and what mobo?

RAM?

 i7 10700k and msi meg z490 unify mobo.

I'll reuse my old ram, 2x16GB corsair vengenance lpx 3200mhz.

All that in combination with 3080 or 6800xt....probably 3080 cos again reasons driver stability and at high res performance on par with amd.

[chiliwili69]

6 hours ago, =VARP=Ribbon said:

Here are some results (at 1080p/1440p/4k) bellow:

 

Hey, the video that you indicate here is the best example of where the bottleneck is.

For low resolutions (1080p, and somehow 1440p) the GPU (a 3090 card used here) is NOT the bottleneck, so the 5800X is doing better.

For High resolutions (4K) the GPU is the bottleneck of the system, so it doesn´t matter how well the CPU does, you are GPU limited. Here there is no differences.

 

I think the video is useful for people who play in 1080p (there are many people using 1080p who will buy a 5600X) and also for people who play at 4K to know that it doesn´t matter what CPU they will buy since for those games the limit will be GPU (even a 3090).

 

But when we move to VR the use case is different. Even if you run in resolutions close to 4K (4K is 8.5Million and the Index or G1 at SS100% is 9.5 million) the bottleneck is still the CPU in many cases. But this depends how you tune your settings. Some settings load CPU and other load GPU and others load CPU and GPU. That´s why the CPU test in the SYN_Vander benchmark are performed at 1080p. To really know what are the CPU which execute the IL-2 code at the faster speed but without being GPU limited.

 

We will be able to compare the real use case which is VR in my case. That´s why the SYN_Vander benchmark can be run in VR as well. So we can compare performance of multiple combinations of CPU/GPU/VR devices. But we should expect that the PC with higher mark in the CPU test will perform better in VR for the same GPU/Device. Well, this is what I would expect to see, but obsiuously it can be wrong until we see the test.

 

I encourage to anyone with a new build to run the benchmark test with CPU, GPU and if possible also VR. The benchmark is here.

 

 

[Guest deleted@134347]

 

awesome conversation you guys are having...

 

 

 

I've got an aging 8700k ...  wondering where to go, what to get. 

 

AMD surely  is a mesmerizing choice. Except way back I've had a GPU's fail on me twice (hw issue), and 50% chance of the drivers working with every driver update (sw issue).   Scary stuff. Well, extremely inconvenient.

 

 

Intel is a safe bet as she's a girl you take to a +1 event.

 

AMD is a super hottie you meet at the event and wonder why she's there all alone...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by 69th_Didney_World

[Jaws2002]

As far as AMD CPUs are concerned. That's no longer the case. AMD is a solid choice since Zen2. With Zen3 AMD is best at pretty much everything....

 

  Now go talk to that hottie and forget that safe (boring) old girl, you came with. ?

 

[Gambit21]

I’ve been very happy with my first gen Ryzen (1700) overclocked.

[LuftManu]

Happy user of a 5600X here. No issues so far, still amazed of the performance this thing has. Better performance for sure than 10700K and even 10900K in sims. It's like when I bought a Pascal GPU. Coming from a 1600, no issues neither.

Edited December 1, 2020 by LF_Gallahad

[Gambit21]

On 11/30/2020 at 3:44 AM, =VARP=Ribbon said:

 

In the end it all matters how will it perform on apps the one is using and in that case intel is still safer bet

 

That's simply not true.

I've been using a Ryzen 1700 for 3 years, and run many apps, including high-end graphics apps, Photoshop, Illustrator, 3D Apps (Modo, Cinema 4D) and sims and games.

This Ryzen processor has been outstanding I've not experienced a single hiccup. Now it's 3 years and 2 generations later. 

What exactly are we waiting for? I know I'm not waiting for anything. No way I'm going backwards/back to Intel at this juncture.

 

I dropped Intel 3 years ago because of their pathetic gains since I'd built my i5 2500k machine 5 years prior.

 

 

On 11/30/2020 at 3:44 AM, =VARP=Ribbon said:

until amd and app developers sort things out).

 

See above.

 

On 11/30/2020 at 3:44 AM, =VARP=Ribbon said:

User-end experience and result is what matters!

 

Precisely, see above.

 

I know you want to feel good about the direction you went, and I'm sure it will work out just fine for you.

However Ryzen is here...and has been.

 

[Ribbon]

21 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

 

That's simply not true.

I've been using a Ryzen 1700 for 3 years, and run many apps, including high-end graphics apps, Photoshop, Illustrator, 3D Apps (Modo, Cinema 4D) and sims and games.

This Ryzen processor has been outstanding I've not experienced a single hiccup. Now it's 3 years and 2 generations later. 

What exactly are we waiting for? I know I'm not waiting for anything. No way I'm going backwards/back to Intel at this juncture.

 

I dropped Intel 3 years ago because of their pathetic gains since I'd built my i5 2500k machine 5 years prior.

 

 

 

See above.

 

 

Precisely, see above

 

I know you want to feel good about the direction you went, and I'm sure it will work out just fine for you.

However Ryzen is here...and has been.

 

You're taking it out on personal and emotional level!

Me...not so much, it was amd or intel and it was big dilema, while amd having issues powering usb ports when it comes to Reverb G2, i went for intel taking in consideration i'm MP guy that will play on high resolution where difference isn't huge between them while avoiding mobo issues.

For other games....i'm at 2k 27" monitor that either setup will run fine for few years, so my direction was well calculated.

What seems not true for you is reality for some others.

Do you use VR, have you preordered G2?.....No!

Did you know about G2 problems with amd mobos?.....seems not!

Also you should read and quote my whole post not taking words out of context!

And yes ryzen is here and beaten intel and i'm very happy about it hoping it will continue in that direction so my next build could be amd or intel which ever suit my needs better with all issues ironed out (at least on devices and apps i'm using)!

So let's put intel/amd fanboism aside ?