Guest deleted@83466 Posted July 12, 2020 Posted July 12, 2020 (edited) You know, I can't help but think that if the people who bought WW 2 content in the hopes of supporting Flying Circus, actually used the content they bought that some of the perspectives might be a bit different here. Less of seeing themselves besieged on a deserted island with no friends, and more of seeing Flying Circus as 1 of 7 modules, constantly under development and revision . Edited July 12, 2020 by SeaSerpent
Tycoon Posted July 12, 2020 Posted July 12, 2020 1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said: Hi, my name is Vasily, and I have been dispatched by 1C to give you bear hug and kiss on both cheek. And then, ve dance!
J2_Bidu Posted July 12, 2020 Posted July 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Redwo1f said: I don't disagree. Don't shoot the messenger. Oh, I didn't mean it as a rant. I was just being factual. ? I actually quite agree with what you said. 1
BraveSirRobin Posted July 12, 2020 Posted July 12, 2020 3 hours ago, Tycoon said: If they said it once in the last couple weeks it would have been enough. Just to be clear, in that video link I posted, you’re not the drill instructor. You’re the Gere character.
BraveSirRobin Posted July 12, 2020 Posted July 12, 2020 Maybe you should. Lots of people in here act like they’ve got some sort of leverage and that 1C should jump to attention when you start complaining. That isn’t how it works. They’re constantly updating the game. Maybe they’ll fix this and maybe they won’t. And maybe you should make the best of what you’ve got until they decide. Because...well, ... watch the video. 3
ST_Catchov Posted July 12, 2020 Posted July 12, 2020 58 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said: Lots of people in here act like they’ve got some sort of leverage and that 1C should jump to attention when you start complaining. That isn’t how it works. You're right BSB. The way it works is complete silence, locking or deleting threads and removing posts. It's not my idea of inspiring confidence in the future. 1
BraveSirRobin Posted July 12, 2020 Posted July 12, 2020 7 minutes ago, catchov said: You're right BSB. The way it works is complete silence, locking or deleting threads and removing posts. It's not my idea of inspiring confidence in the future. Maybe you should watch the video again. You don’t have the leverage here. Either trust that they’re going to try to make it right, or spend your time trying to piss them off until they don’t care what you want. Your choice.
ST_Catchov Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 49 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said: Maybe you should watch the video again. Oh no, not again. Have mercy. Look here sport, all they've gotta say is "we hear your concerns and we will be addressing them". Is that too hard? It just might stop all the bullshit and we can all get on with enjoying the game we love. 3
BraveSirRobin Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 41 minutes ago, catchov said: It just might stop all the bullshit It won't. That's probably why they don't bother. 1
US103_Baer Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 21 hours ago, J5_Baeumer said: Should we consider turning advanced physics off? It seemed like the game was more flyable for many more players....was there less wing shedding? There seemed to be less complaining and griping about it. Now with advanced physics back on, all the complaining starts up again. Silence doesn't equal consent. More to do with closing of other DM threads I suspect. 2
SeaW0lf Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 Wasn't Larner who recently said in one of the FC threads: "During one training night I was doing a bit of sparring with one of the 103rd guys. We must have had about 20 duels - about 18 of which resulted in me shooting out one or more of his controls, or vice versa, with the first burst that landed." Is this going to be looked at? Plus the shredding wings / shaking planes?
NO.20_W_M_Thomson Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 1 hour ago, SeaW0lf said: Wasn't Larner who recently said in one of the FC threads: "During one training night I was doing a bit of sparring with one of the 103rd guys. We must have had about 20 duels - about 18 of which resulted in me shooting out one or more of his controls, or vice versa, with the first burst that landed." Is this going to be looked at? Plus the shredding wings / shaking planes? This is pretty much what we all have been saying, I've had that problem far more than I can count, On the Bristol no doubt. Not the wing shedding but lost of all controls. Bristol is as tough as the D7. I read the book wing sabers about the 20th squad and can't say they lost controls like we do in FC and they were a number of times shot up and still managed to get home even with a dead pilot, Gunner can control the Bristol from the back. 1
No.23_Gaylion Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) I read all 105 "reports of experience" of USAS pilots shot down and captured in German territory and I think 6 of them said controls were shot away. The overwhelming majority had motors quit to damage during the fight. These are DH4, Salmson, Breguets, SPADS, SEs, N28's, so not just one type and not just one person's account many many years after the fact. These reports were compiled directly at the end of the war when the pilot returned to his unit after being released or escaped from POW captivity. Edited July 13, 2020 by US93_Talbot 2
Tycoon Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 20 minutes ago, US93_Talbot said: I read all 105 "reports of experience" of USAS pilots shot down and captured in German territory and I think 6 of them said controls were shot away. When they say shot away, are they referring to control wire being destroyed? I have a feeling most of the historical references are talking about whole control surfaces falling off, not tiny wires getting cut like in game.
BraveSirRobin Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 35 minutes ago, US93_Talbot said: I read all 105 "reports of experience" of USAS pilots shot down and captured in German territory and I think 6 of them said controls were shot away. The overwhelming majority had motors quit to damage during the fight. These are DH4, Salmson, Breguets, SPADS, SEs, N28's, so not just one type and not just one person's account many many years after the fact. These reports were compiled directly at the end of the war when the pilot returned to his unit after being released or escaped from POW captivity. Yes, it’s definitely a mystery why there aren’t more reports from WW1 pilots who lost control of their aircraft. Maybe they bailed out and are still walking back to their base? 1 1
No.23_Gaylion Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 So we are in the process of writing up all the reading we've been doing on this and I plan to make a big post in the history section. In the POW accounts and AARs, guys will say they "fell out of control" and it really is impossible to put a label on that to reflect data we can use here. The problem is what did he mean by that phrase? Does it mean loss of control surface or wires? Or does it mean he fell into a spin and couldn't get out? Honestly we'll never know. Some reports are very vague and there is very little usable info for us in our setting. Then you have others which are extremely detail which mention motor damage, fuel tanks hit,. Then there ARE guys who specifically mention "I lost elevator control" or "I lost rudder control" or "control wires". Those accounts which mention those specific phrases are the ones I check the box that lost control surfaces. Is that the right way to go about it? I don't know. What I think all the data CAN show is an overall "experience" of what the game should aim for. You can't take hard numbers away from this and plug it into a calculator and say X should happen Y times. I definitely don't think thats the right way to go with it. But if you can take experiences of players in game and maybe cross reference with the experiences of almost 500 different airmans experiences we might be able to say X is happening a little too much perhaps? 6 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said: Yes, it’s definitely a mystery why there aren’t more reports from WW1 pilots who lost control of their aircraft. Maybe they bailed out and are still walking back to their base? See and then you have guys like this who shit on all the time you spent on this. Did you stop to think about the fact that these were guys ACTUALLY shot down who survived? Just ignore them right because others died? @BraveSirRobin WHERE DID I SAY IT NEVER HAPPENS????????
Guest deleted@83466 Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 Wait Talbot, that's not a fair response. I mean, sure he's being snarky, but pointing out the survivor bias in survivor accounts is legit.
No.23_Gaylion Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) I understand that which is why I'm not saying that 6 (or whatever) out of 100 dogfights should be the number of times one loses control wires. Maybe instead of snarkiness (pot calling kettle black here) he should say "hey man you shouldn't look at it like this because..." and help rather than hinder. I'm also not say it never happened. Is 90% of the time you get into a dogfight in game you lose controls correct? I don't think so and the historical accounts and numbers don't reflect that. Honest question and not trying to rope anyone in here: What if you looked the amount of fights a squadron had versus the amount of planes lost in combat? Would that help at all? Edited July 13, 2020 by US93_Talbot 1
BraveSirRobin Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 14 minutes ago, US93_Talbot said: Did you stop to think about the fact that these were guys ACTUALLY shot down who survived? It appears that I’m tho only one who put any thought into what you posted. As you pointed out, the survivors mostly had engine problems. WW1 aircraft are usually pretty decent gliders. Can you think of any reason why there weren’t a lot of survivors of aircraft that lost their control system?
No.23_Gaylion Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said: As you pointed out, the survivors mostly had engine problems. Maybe I phrased that wrong. These guys had multiple things going wrong when they went down. Loss of control surface is but one of many things that went wrong to a single person. He could be wounded, leaking fuel, with a stopped motor and then attacked on the way down and lost wires. None of these are chalked up to a single event except if the pilot mentioned nothing else. 13 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said: Can you think of any reason why there weren’t a lot of survivors of aircraft that lost their control system Please don't talk to me like I'm a fool. Its all a huge waste of time anyways... but you know... Edited July 13, 2020 by US93_Talbot
Guest deleted@83466 Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 Losing your controls creates a lot of distraction. Pilot: "I lost my controls! Where could they have gone? I would have sworn they were right here a second ago.. Did I leave them upstairs? Hey, backseater, have you seen my controls lying around back there?" Back Seater: "No, I haven't seen them. Hey, pay attention! Watch out for that tree...."
BraveSirRobin Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 Just now, US93_Talbot said: Please don't talk to me like I'm a fool. ‘Don’t post ridiculous stats that don’t prove anything and act like you’ve found the holy grail. The damage you’re complaining about is catastrophic and would result in virtually no survivors. Posting survivor stats does absolutely nothing to help your cause.
No.23_Gaylion Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said: ‘Don’t post ridiculous stats that don’t prove anything and act like you’ve found the holy grail. The damage you’re complaining about is catastrophic and would result in virtually no survivors. Posting survivor stats does absolutely nothing to help your cause. Cool, right on man!
BraveSirRobin Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 Just now, US93_Talbot said: Cool, right on man! ‘You guys don’t seem to have a big problem with outbound snark. Apparently you’re a little sensitive to inbound. I’ll try to be more respectful of your feelings in the future. Like after this post. Because this post is totally snark.
No.23_Gaylion Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said: ‘You guys don’t seem to have a big problem with outbound snark. Apparently you’re a little sensitive to inbound. I’ll try to be more respectful of your feelings in the future. Like after this post. Because this post is totally snark. Quite snarky! I love it! Can we be friends? I'll buy you a beer. Just kidding, I'd never hang out with you. Edited July 13, 2020 by US93_Talbot 1
RNAS10_Oliver Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, US93_Talbot said: I read all 105 "reports of experience" of USAS pilots shot down and captured in German territory and I think 6 of them said controls were shot away. The overwhelming majority had motors quit to damage during the fight. These are DH4, Salmson, Breguets, SPADS, SEs, N28's, so not just one type and not just one person's account many many years after the fact. These reports were compiled directly at the end of the war when the pilot returned to his unit after being released or escaped from POW captivity. 1 hour ago, Tycoon said: When they say shot away, are they referring to control wire being destroyed? I have a feeling most of the historical references are talking about whole control surfaces falling off, not tiny wires getting cut like in game. Even then assuming its indeed referring to the cables/blocks/fairleads/attachment points getting shot through one assumes those were not resulting in the flight control surface getting jammed stuck in whatever position they were last in (as they are here and having to fight against). But rather would result in the flight control surface not being held in any manner, its position being determined due to the aerodynamic forces acting upon them. Becoming some useless wobbling appendage. I guess perhaps once shot through could get snagged on something? But that would be another level of rarity after that. Also using the Camel as an example for each elevator there are two wires coming from the control column (via blocks and fairleads). They do not exert any push force on the control surface, just pull forces. So one cable pulls the elevator down to enable us to pitch down, the other does the opposite. Getting the one leading underneath the elevator shot through is going to put a stop to us being able to pitch further down, but we ought to continue to be able to pitch further up as the cable that handles the pitching up for that elevator remains. But when we here are getting our elevators controls shot through it's both directions at once, and also both elevators at once, so four cables are getting severed at once (must be the blocks and fairleads) and then stuck fast. That's what I do not get about the new control systems damage. If I take a knife to the mainsheet on my fathers tempest (along with him being livid) the boom and main is not going to remain where it was, that things going where the wind damn well wants it to go. Edited July 13, 2020 by Oliver88 1 1
BraveSirRobin Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 1 minute ago, US93_Talbot said: Quite snarky! I love it! Can we be friends? I'll buy you a beer. Just kidding, I'd never hang out with you. Best news I’ve got today! 2
No.23_Starling Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 12 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said: ‘Don’t post ridiculous stats that don’t prove anything and act like you’ve found the holy grail. The damage you’re complaining about is catastrophic and would result in virtually no survivors. Posting survivor stats does absolutely nothing to help your cause. If I recall, Talbot and Larner looked at pow accounts AND German victory records/testimonies, producing stats on reason for loss, then compared this to our Flugpark losses and kills pre and post patch with a decent sample of data. The indicators were that pre patch losses more closely matched the limited recorded war records we have. Of course, the way online pilots fly is going to be different that RL, with the exception of excellent pilots like Drookasi who tries to keep his VL as if it were real, however the 3PG generally do try to fly conservatively. There is no harm in collecting and sharing cold objective data and allowing the devs to either take heed or ignore.
No.23_Gaylion Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) @Oliver88 This is a SPAD tailplane. The arrows are pointing to a metal bar that metal brackets are holding which freely rotates as the elevator goes up and down. If that bar was bent or rounds went through one of those 14 connections, I could see how this particular elevator could get stuck. I would think you'd have just as much chance of that happening as you would an actual wire being shot away. Edited July 13, 2020 by US93_Talbot
RNAS10_Oliver Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) @US93_Talbot That's fair point on the elevators I guess. Did consider that a bit. The post was starting from assuming control wires assumed as Tycoon was querying you. Is there a common bar going right through the wings to connect and control both upper (or both lower) ailerons together (well of course there's not) also though? Because again at least from what I've seen we loose (jam) both sides at once. Quote If that bar was bent or rounds went through one of those 14 connections, I could see how this particular elevator could get stuck. Is there fourteen there? Some of those pointed to do not appear to be these connections that enable the bar to freely rotate. Your SPAD in the game appears to show three such connections on each elevator. Edited July 13, 2020 by Oliver88
BraveSirRobin Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 34 minutes ago, US93_Rummell said: There is no harm in collecting and sharing cold objective data and allowing the devs to either take heed or ignore. there is also no harm in me pointing out that the data he posted is almost useless due to a high degree of survivor bias.
No.23_Starling Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 16 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said: there is also no harm in me pointing out that the data he posted is almost useless due to a high degree of survivor bias. I didn’t say anything to the contrary. Talbot’s survivor data is part of a wider dataset looking at several sources and in-game trends. The work they’ve put it could fill a doctoral thesis ? I 100% agree that survival bias is a problem with PoW sources hence the need to include wider datasets such as kill claims (as they have done in previous posts). The data is pointing towards something in the middle of the first DM and what we have now. I have faith that the devs will keep improving things, and will welcome well-reasoned and informed objective suggestions. 1 hour ago, BraveSirRobin said: ‘Don’t post ridiculous stats that don’t prove anything and act like you’ve found the holy grail. The damage you’re complaining about is catastrophic and would result in virtually no survivors. Posting survivor stats does absolutely nothing to help your cause. The stats aren’t ridiculous, they’re just less viable as indicative evidence in isolation. I’d hope we all have the same shared cause (to make an excellent sim even better). 2
Zooropa_Fly Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 I should mention that my rate of control failure per defeat is nowhere near 90 percent. It'll be less than 10. But for the second time today I'm forced to say 'it wasn't Larner shooting at me'. 1
Guest deleted@83466 Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 One guy says 90%, another says <10%. Needless to say, if you want any hope of this being re-examined, you'd better pin it down better than that.
Zooropa_Fly Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 We don't all fly in the same manner and circumstances, thus often have different experiences. Which was the point I was trying to make. I'm not trying to pin anything down.
BraveSirRobin Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 3 hours ago, US93_Rummell said: I’d hope we all have the same shared cause (to make an excellent sim even better). Comments like that one, and all it implies, make me hope that they abandon WW1 and make Tank Crew the secondary project.
SeaW0lf Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 1 hour ago, SeaSerpent said: One guy says 90%, another says <10%. Needless to say, if you want any hope of this being re-examined, you'd better pin it down better than that. Some of us have been doing this long enough to say that something is [really] wrong. And then you try to resonate with books and accounts and then 'we know' something is wrong. If the whole thing wants to go down in flames and just ignore the problem, fine. But I'm of the opinion that the problem won't go away anyways.
BraveSirRobin Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, SeaW0lf said: Some of us have been doing this long enough to say that something is [really] wrong. You were a pilot in the Great War?
Tycoon Posted July 13, 2020 Posted July 13, 2020 34 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said: Comments like that one, and all it implies, make me hope that they abandon WW1 and make Tank Crew the secondary project. Alright BSR you're just being flat out toxic now.?
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