Migoto Is a Cheat. Devs please Ban this!

[RedKestrel]

Just now, SharpeXB said:

The perception of cheating is never a good thing for multiplayer. Of course that’s why hardly anyone plays Mods On. But this Mod is definitely a potential exploit and belongs in that category. 

All you have to do is get high stats and there will be a 'perception of cheating', because people don't like to lose and will find any reason they can think of to avoid acknowledging the fact that they got beat. People literally just make up exploits they think are happening and accuse people of using it. I've seen people accuse all of the leading players in a server being cheaters because they think its impossible to kill 5 planes in a sortie, despite live-recorded video evidence of it happening. 

Its no more a potential exploit than a guy having a TV for a monitor and a good graphics card to run it, since we have proof in this thread that nothing additional is rendered that isn't under regular zoom, it just makes what is rendered bigger - which is what a bigger monitor does.

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

Its no more a potential exploit than a guy having a TV for a monitor and a good graphics card to run it, since we have proof in this thread that nothing additional is rendered that isn't under regular zoom, it just makes what is rendered bigger - which is what a bigger monitor does.

There’s only so much fairness a PC game can achieve. 
A game like this can’t regulate players hardware. 
it can however regulate any changes made by external software. 

[RedKestrel]

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s only so much fairness a PC game can achieve. 
A game like this can’t regulate players hardware. 
it can however regulate any changes made by external software. 

If the external software conveys no material advantage that hardware cannot already provide, I don't have a problem with it being allowed. Like Reshade, its a quality of life improvement for users who choose to use it, and any advantage they gain is marginal. At least the VR guys using this are able to ID me and less likely to FF me to death.

If its so great, 2d monitor people should start using it. When they suddenly become super aces overnight then they can come back and tell us all about it. When they don't, they will find something else that is a cheat that is surely the reason people are winning online. This time for real, they promise.

[Guest deleted@134347]

38 minutes ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

Ok let me put it plain in simple. Lets say we have a 2 ship that all have the VR mod flying same altitude as some bandits that do not have the mod. The VR mod pilots spots them and Identifies them before the bandits can. Does that not provide the initiative in the fight for the VR mods because they know what type of target it is and how to engage? Meanwhile the bandits that haven´t ID'd yet, still have doubts and are still in the decision making process?

No advantage? Ok.

 

if they are noobs - yes, it's some sort of an advantage. But you mentioned TAW, squads, and tactics. In any case If you spot something and don't do anything about it - it's your fault, whether you're a noob or a pro. If you're a noob, able to ID an enemy early enough, and up against a pro, you'll still lose. If you're a noob, able to id, and up against a noob, this 'advantage' is gone in a first pass. If you're a pro with ID advantage up against another pro without ID advantage the fight will end up being the same anyway, because if the pro spots something, can't id, the pro will try to get a better position until he can id.

 

My point is that whatever advantage you think this provides it is marginal at best. But for VR this tool is a must simply because without it you can't even ID planes 1km away.

34 minutes ago, E69_Kar said:

In that way 1080p monitor players can make a mod to help theirselves  like others do for VR.

 

 what are the rules? if you spent more money you are allowed use advantage mods?

 

Then use it. If anything It'll level the field with the players with big monitors/4k. 

 

It's exactly the same way you have with 2d players already: Track IR. Players on monitors without TrackIR have to use a mouse/hat switch, which is slow, cumbersome, and puts them in disadvantage. So what do you do? You get a trackIR. How is TrackIR not a "cheat" by the same rationale? Is it simply because people just accepted it as part of the game comfort improvements? Why was it accepted as such? Who was behind this? 

 

It's the same exact logic.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Count_de_Money

[FTC_Kongoo]

19 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

if they are noobs - yes, it's some sort of an advantage. But you mentioned TAW, squads, and tactics. In any case If you spot something and don't do anything about it - it's your fault, whether you're a noob or a pro. If you're a noob, able to ID an enemy early enough, and up against a pro, you'll still lose. If you're a noob, able to id, and up against a noob, this 'advantage' is gone in a first pass. If you're a pro with ID advantage up against another pro without ID advantage the fight will end up being the same anyway, because if the pro spots something, can't id, the pro will try to get a better position until he can id.

 

My point is that whatever advantage you think this provides it is marginal at best. But for VR this tool is a must simply because without it you can't even ID planes 1km away.

 

Then use it. If anything It'll level the field with the players with big monitors/4k. 

 

It's exactly the same way you have with 2d players already: Track IR. Players on monitors without TrackIR have to use a mouse/hat switch, which is slow, cumbersome, and puts them in disadvantage. So what do you do? You get a trackIR. How is TrackIR not a "cheat" by the same rationale? Is it simply because people just accepted it as part of the game comfort improvements? Why was it accepted as such? Who was behind this? 

 

It's the same exact logic.

 

 

Pro in a 1 V 1 scenario yeah. But when you have pros in one group fighting another, the story changes.

 

IN anycase I never said completely remove Migoto. I said somehow reduce the zoom slightly from what we have now.

[Talon_]

53 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

there isn’t anything the Devs can do with regard to visibility which will help that.

They could give VR HMDs zoom parity with 2D screens, which currently is not in-game and corrected by the mod. 5x 2D zoom = 1.5x HMD zoom due to FOV calculations.

[Guest deleted@134347]

6 minutes ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

But when you have pros in one group fighting another, the story changes.

 

How? How does it change the story for pro's vs pro's? You seem to hint at some capability in tactics that escapes me. Please give me a play by play use case scenario. 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Count_de_Money

[Talon_]

8 minutes ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

I said somehow reduce the zoom slightly from what we have now.

 

The zoom is configurable on a per-user basis. I actually find the default zoom a bit much so I had to reduce it when I tested it, though I don't actually use the mod now because I don't find it gives me a big enough advantage to outweigh the negatives (need more control binds, can't play after updates until it's also updated)

[ITAF_Rani]

Geramos has opened Pandora's box

 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by ITAF_Rani

[FTC_Kongoo]

9 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

How? How does it change the story for pro's vs pro's? You seem to hint at some capability in tactics that escapes me. Please give me a play by play use case scenario. 

 

 

So when you engage someone and you know what type of aircraft it is beforehand, you use your strengths against his weakness' such as climb rate dive speed etc. If i know that way before you do, I have the chance put myself in an advantageous position before you do and dictate the fight. Don´t you think?

[Talon_]

5 minutes ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

So when you engage someone and you know what type of aircraft it is beforehand, you use your strengths against his weakness' such as climb rate dive speed etc

 

Go back to dogfighting 101 if you think that is the case ?

 

You always attack from above no matter how much better your plane climbs than his.

[Guest deleted@134347]

6 minutes ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

So when you engage someone and you know what type of aircraft it is beforehand, you use your strengths against his weakness' such as climb rate dive speed etc. If i know that way before you do, I have the chance put myself in an advantageous position before you do and dictate the fight. Don´t you think?

 

I agree with you, but that's just a general statement in regards to Energy fighting.  How does that offer you an advantage from 20km away?

 

Again, keep in mind, you're both pro's and you both spotted each other from 20km away. One can id and another can't. But you're pros. So you both started to climb, one assuming the other is an enemy being the best climber, another doing the same simply know the make of the plane from the id-ing. My point the actions of the pilots are identical regardless of the ID-ing.

 

 

Thinking it thru further I think the only "advantage" the early IDing will give you is the ability to be LAZY ?  I.e. you know who's there so why bother ..

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Count_de_Money

[RedKestrel]

3 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

Go back to dogfighting 101 if you think that is the case ?

 

You always attack from above no matter how much better your plane climbs than his.

The only thing I can think of is IDing the guy much farther away and disengaging early if he has a superior fighter. But that's not an advantage in a fight per se. 

[Beazil]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

VR players say that they need the mod to make up for the low resolution of their HMDs, there isn’t anything the Devs can do with regard to visibility which will help that. Many monitor and VR players think they need help spotting and IDing and justify this exploit based upon that. But a mod like this is still a cheat regardless of how you justify its use. 

You don't know what I or any other player "thinks".  You are not the morality police, nor are you the barometer for fair play you think you are.  Got shot down?  Must be because the other fellow was "cheating".  

So carry on with your crusade.  I hope you manage to get all mods locked down.  I'm sure the player base appreciates your attention and we can all celebrate your personal contribution to the discussion.  Thanks.

[[DBS]Browning]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s only so much fairness a PC game can achieve. 
A game like this can’t regulate players hardware. 
it can however regulate any changes made by external software. 

 

It's true that you can regulate software changes and not hardware changes, but that doesn't imply you should, especially if the software changes have less of an effect than the hardware changes and especially when the software changes have the overall effect of levelling the playing field.

 

Allowing hardware changes, but disallowing migoto is like a car racing championship allowing cars to run with any engine, any tiers and any gearbox, but disallowing glasses for the drivers with poor eyesight.

Edited May 1, 2020 by [DBS]Browning

[FTC_Kongoo]

6 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

The only thing I can think of is IDing the guy much farther away and disengaging early if he has a superior fighter. But that's not an advantage in a fight per se. 

Bingo. It´s an advantage in making the right decision. I´m mostly talking in the context of environments like TAW. Not Airquake ones.

[von_Tom]

 

I'm wondering how ID'ing someone at 20km helps when they get tiny/disappear as they get closer.  How many can honestly say that they've watched a contact from 20km all the way up to engaging them.

 

Weighing everything up, 3DMigoto gives the ability to ID something easier in VR.  That's pretty much it.  It might in certain circumstances give an advantage or help someone avoid being at a disadvantage, but that is set against the restrictions imposed by hardware.

 

It'd be interesting if there was a programming limitation to the field of view from the cockpit seating position, maybe removing the rear 20 degree arc.  Perhaps that would be more of a leveller?

 

von Tom

 

 

[Guest deleted@134347]

1 minute ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

Bingo. It´s an advantage in making the right decision. I´m mostly talking in the context of environments like TAW. Not Airquake ones.

 

this is nonesense. In TAW and its tactical setting you make a decision to approach the fur ball basing it on your squad ability and not on who's inside the said fur ball. If you don't then you're not a Pro and simply a single plane fighter who just wants to get in to a fight he can win. On top of it, you can still utilize the higher position to approach said fur balls in order to get in /out of them.

 

What you're describing, again, is that remote ID-ing helps you being lazy and doesn't actually give you any advantage in anything.

[Beazil]

12 minutes ago, von_Tom said:

 

I'm wondering how ID'ing someone at 20km helps when they get tiny/disappear as they get closer.  How many can honestly say that they've watched a contact from 20km all the way up to engaging them.

 

Weighing everything up, 3DMigoto gives the ability to ID something easier in VR.  That's pretty much it.  It might in certain circumstances give an advantage or help someone avoid being at a disadvantage, but that is set against the restrictions imposed by hardware.

 

It'd be interesting if there was a programming limitation to the field of view from the cockpit seating position, maybe removing the rear 20 degree arc.  Perhaps that would be more of a leveller?

 

von Tom

 

 

We should remove all head tracking and the ability to look anywhere but straight forward.  For all players.  That should make everyone happy. 

Edited May 1, 2020 by JG51_Beazil

[Guest deleted@134347]

5 minutes ago, von_Tom said:

I'm wondering how ID'ing someone at 20km helps when they get tiny/disappear as they get closer.  How many can honestly say that they've watched a contact from 20km all the way up to engaging them.

 

that's it right here. It doesn't give any actual advantage to anyone knowing that there's an enemy 20km away.

 

The only real Pro (not advantage) I can see here is for the Noobs not to get entangled in a fight they can't win.

[6./ZG26_Custard]

Clearly this is becoming extremely an emotive subject. Surely the way forward would be for it to be permanently disabled for non VR users if mods are not enabled, if this is possible? It certainly seems like it can be used as a very useful exploit if using a 2D monitor. As I said earlier I don't want VR users to be disadvantaged but I don't want non VR users to have Awacs. 

[von_Tom]

3 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

The only real Pro (not advantage) I can see here is for the Noobs not to get entangled in a fight they can't win.

 

 

Hasn't helped me.

 

?

 

von Tom

[Guest deleted@134347]

1 minute ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Clearly this is becoming extremely an emotive subject. Surely the way forward would be for it to be permanently disabled for non VR users if mods are not enabled, if this is possible? It certainly seems like it can be used as a very useful exploit if using a 2D monitor. As I said earlier I don't want VR users to be disadvantaged but I don't want non VR users to have Awacs. 

 

lefuneste said he might strip the 2d shaders off the next release so 2D guys won't be able to use it. But again, it's no AWAC without rockets.. And you can mobilize your squad buddies on any spotted speck regardless the ID..

[Barnacles]

53 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

They could give VR HMDs zoom parity with 2D screens, which currently is not in-game and corrected by the mod. 5x 2D zoom = 1.5x HMD zoom due to FOV calculations.

DCS did it, hope 1c follow suit.

 

[C6_lefuneste]

9 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

lefuneste said he might strip the 2d shaders off the next release so 2D guys won't be able to use it. But again, it's no AWAC without rockets.. And you can mobilize your squad buddies on any spotted speck regardless the ID..

No I wrote that I will limit zoom factor if I can, so everybody will have the same, whatever you stack the mod zoom with the in game zoom in 2D or in 3D. I will also limit the max factor to less than 10x...

But I still believe that there is some hysteria here, with a lot of people making assumption and not simply checking. You won't be magically spot at 30 km with the 3dmigoto zoom if the game did not display your plane with the ingame zoom.

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by c6_lefuneste

[RedRider]

I will say that without this "mod" I wouldn't be able to play the game in VR, and thus I wouldn't play (I've become spoiled -- VR or nothing for my gaming these days). Some of you might like that idea, but that's where we're at with the state of VR. IL-2 is a fantastic game, my all time favorite. Please don't ruin this for us. It's not cheating for VR users, we're already handicapped as it is with our various neck injuries and debilitated vision lol.

[E69_Kar]

2 minutes ago, c6_lefuneste said:

No I wrote that I will limit zoom factor if I can, so everybody will have the same, whatever you stack the mod zoom with the in game zoom in 2D or in 3D. I will also limit the max factor to less than 10x...

But I still believe that there is some hysteria here, with a lot of people making assumption and not simply checking. You won't be magically spot at 30 km with the 3dmigoto zoom if the game did not display your plane with the ingame zoom.

 

 

Some VR  guys want the advantage only for themselves.

[RedRider]

Just now, E69_Kar said:

 

Some VR  guys want the advantage only for themselves.

 

???

 

He's saying he'll literally level the playing field. No stacked zoom! Are you dense?

[Beazil]

7 minutes ago, E69_Kar said:

 

Some VR  guys want the advantage only for themselves.

Tell me moar.

[E69_geramos109]

Here you can see some Screenshots

 

Some are saying that the X5 zoom is the same that the zoom we have in game. Well you can see here how the terrain is more blorred and the contacts are clearly more visible. Those are Screenshots taken directly on the game same resolution same everything.

@SCG_Fenris_Wolf Look. You called me a lyer because I said that with migoto you see more blurred the terrain

 

Terrain example:

 

max zoom in game

 

x5 migoto zoom (terrain more blurred)

 

 

Contacts:

 

Max zoom in game

 

X5 migoto zoom

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by E69_geramos109

[Guest deleted@134347]

22 minutes ago, c6_lefuneste said:

No I wrote that I will limit zoom factor if I can, so everybody will have the same, whatever you stack the mod zoom with the in game zoom in 2D or in 3D. I will also limit the max factor to less than 10x...

But I still believe that there is some hysteria here, with a lot of people making assumption and not simply checking. You won't be magically spot at 30 km with the 3dmigoto zoom if the game did not display your plane with the ingame zoom.

 

 

oh, ok, I stand corrected, my bad. I personally use x5 zoom on top of in-game x2 zoom, so I guess it's a total of x7 and it's at the limit of my visual comprehension. 

[SharpeXB]

53 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

You don't know what I or any other player "thinks". 

Well I can read what they have posted here repeatedly. That VR players believe they need this zoom level to compensate for the low resolution of their HMDs. 

[Guest deleted@134347]

6 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Here you can see some Screenshots

 

Some are saying that the X5 zoom is the same that the zoom we have in game. Well you can see here how the terrain is more blorred and the contacts are clearly more visible. Those are Screenshots taken directly on the game same resolution same everything.

@SCG_Fenris_Wolf Look. You called me a lyer because I said that with migoto you see more blurred the terrain

Terrain example:

 

 

it's blurred because your computer can't render anything outside of your render bubble, it has nothing to do with the mod itself. Not sure how else this can be explained to you. Mod does not blur anything.

 

You can achieve the same result by setting your rendering horizon distance to 20km and you'll get the same blurred zoom effect with in-game zoom (without using the mod).

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Count_de_Money

[SharpeXB]

38 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

DCS did it, hope 1c follow suit.

 

DCS allows an excessive zoom for VR? I know it has a VR zoom but I don’t know how much. 

Now in modern air combat that’s definitely a cheat because the weapons can reach out that far. In WWII you might be able to argue it’s not much of an advantage seeing enemy aircraft that far away (it certainly isn’t a disadvantage) A while back DCS tried those sprites and it was disastrous for that reason. 

[JG1_Lipfert]

21 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Without this Mod,

 

which is officially allowed,

 

VR would be unusable.

 

 

To the extreme of Pimax headsets that don't even have any native zoom function in IL-2 available. As the producer Jason Williams also has a Pimax headset, and as IL-2 Great Battles will look glorious on the Pimax 8KX that starts shipping June, I heavily doubt that 1CGS would change their course all of a sudden, just because @E69_geramos109 whines like a little girl.

 

If you want to completely remove our zoom @E69_geramos109, remove 180° backwards rotation for all monitor users first.

 

Or just stop whining, and go to hell. 

 

?

 

 

 

Smack down coming from all the little girls ?‍♀️

[JG1_Wittmann]

Not everyone with  issues being able to ID AC   have  older  monitors  etc.   I can see a dot  out to a good distance,  I don't think nearly as well/far as VR,  but   don't have VR to do a direct comparison.   What I do know is that I have  a nice,  new  32"  4K monitor,   that I am forced to run in 1080P  so that I can have any kind of decent ability to spot nme's  .   Id,  that's only possible for me positively  at close range.    Basically  gun range.   I know I am not alone  in this, as many people have posted about this, and made videos about just this,  poor visibility in game.  This poor visibility  has been in game, not something new,  this helps  out all players,  2d  or VR  and it is  much appreciated for having  it out there.   Reshade is used  by many,  Tacview,  etc.   Tools  to make the gaming experience better to enjoy.   What it does do is help  out  1)VR users

2) 2d users  that have had horrible  ID capability    

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

It's true that you can regulate software changes and not hardware changes, but that doesn't imply you should, especially if the software changes have less of an effect than the hardware changes and especially when the software changes have the overall effect of levelling the playing field.

But this mod doesn’t level the field. It confers an advantage over another player who isn’t using it. Whether they are using VR or not. 
 

Most people “cheat” because they believe they are just “leveling the field” since they’re convinced everyone else is cheating. 

[Guest deleted@134347]

9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But this mod doesn’t level the field. It confers an advantage over another player who isn’t using it. Whether they are using VR or not. 
 

Most people “cheat” because they believe they are just “leveling the field” since they’re convinced everyone else is cheating. 

 

dude.. I've asked many times how exactly does this mod give an ACTUAL advantage?  Please, for Pete's sake, indulge me. Walk me through even a SINGLE use case where the ability to ID planes from 20km away is giving someone an actual advantage. Stop with general bullshit. Give me a use case scenario and play it out step by step.  I've given couple of use cases in previous posts. Please provide an actual real argument in regards to tactical engagement with this "id information" at hand.

[SharpeXB]

Just now, Count_de_Money said:

dude.. I've asked many times how exactly does this mod give an ACTUAL advantage? 

It’s pretty obvious that it’s an advantage. It doesn’t require a lengthy explanation. 
It’s it’s not an advantage why are you using it?

And you keep framing the “advantage” discussion around VR vs Monitor. But since any player can use it what about the circumstance of monitor vs monitor or VR vs VR when one player is modded? 
It’s a cheat pure and simple. That it’s a popular cheat doesn’t make it less so. 

[Beazil]

1 hour ago, c6_lefuneste said:

No I wrote that I will limit zoom factor if I can, so everybody will have the same, whatever you stack the mod zoom with the in game zoom in 2D or in 3D. I will also limit the max factor to less than 10x...

But I still believe that there is some hysteria here, with a lot of people making assumption and not simply checking. You won't be magically spot at 30 km with the 3dmigoto zoom if the game did not display your plane with the ingame zoom.

 

You forgot we are in the land of hysteria.  After all I read on these very forums that the developer of this mod is in kahootz with the publisher to something something ..... I forget exactly the conspiracy theory, but it must be true.  Because someone said it on the forums, in a rant, but no hysteria here.  *whistles innocently*.

 

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s pretty obvious that it’s an advantage. It doesn’t require a lengthy explanation. 
It’s it’s not an advantage why are you using it?

And you keep framing the “advantage” discussion around VR vs Monitor. But since any player can use it what about the circumstance of monitor vs monitor or VR vs VR when one player is modded? 
It’s a cheat pure and simple. That it’s a popular cheat doesn’t make it less so. 

Exactly.  I'm convinced.  You've changed my mind. 

 

Oh feel the dishonor wash away!

 

 

Hmm... My "lock the thread or discipline Beazil" sense is tingling....

Edited May 1, 2020 by JG51_Beazil