Test comparing MG151/20, ShVAK20mm and VYa23mm power and effects under current DM online (4.005b)

[Guest deleted@233953]

Actually I found a nice video from TAW forum topic (uploaded yesterday, footage from TAW server) which basically busts this thread along with Petrovich's post.

And this video is from Chimango himself! ? I wonder why you didn't post this here earlier to close this topic? Anyways it's nice to see with his awesome gunnery the 109 pilot bails after few hits ?

 

 

Here's the video from his channel hope you enjoy! (P.s. Defence mode doesn't work anymore)

 

[Raven109]

5 minutes ago, H_Stiglitz said:

sorry you missunderstood all people commenting above.

there is not a SP gun performance and an MP gun performance. there is simply gun performance. in MP with a very low ping, you will get the same results as in SP. the performance is the same everywhere. BUT in MP it is affected by hit registration due to netcode and latency of the other player and/or you.

 

this thread should not be about the damage the VVS guns do, but about optimizing the netcode.

 

if you read and understand @kendos post carefully about what AnPetrovich states on the RU forum, you would understand that the issue in MP is not the guns.

 

Well, I'm guessing the video is about what the OP, as a non-tester/non-developer (wild assumption on my part), perceives to be wrong with the MP environment. Your assumption that the MP net code is the issue is as good as his assumption that the DM is the issue. The difference is that you don't have a video to support your assertion.

 

Ultimately it doesn't even matter. A bug is a bug is a bug. You people get caught in semantics (besides constant ad hominems). If a dev will have a look at the issue he should be capable of determining whether it's a net code issue, a gun damage issue or gremlins. A mere customer doesn't have the resources or expertise to accomplish such a feat in most cases and to classify the issue 100% correctly. They shouldn't really have to, but even so, many still do free of charge testing in an attempt to better the game.

 

An MP bug which leads to different DM behavior when compared to SP, is still a DM bug as perceived by the player. The final outcome is what matters to the player, not the intricacies of the implementation. The details are for the devs to worry about (whether the issue leading to the outcome is in the DM component, the netcode component, the gremlin component etc).

 

MP is a selling point listed on the store page, thus it should receive the attention it deserves (so this thread should not receive less attention, if the issue is really the MP net code as you assume).

[LukeFF]

38 minutes ago, ECV56_Chimango said:

you see the diminished power from VVS guns online while MG151/20 keeps it’s strength.

 

There is no diminished hitting power from certain weapons when playing online vs. offline. None. It is simply not possible, and quite frankly it's sad that here we are now, on page 5, repeating the same things that were said on page 1.

[Blackhawk_FR]

20 minutes ago, BE_AirMan said:

 

 

 

@ECV56_Chimango May I ask why this sentence? " sorry monsieur Faucon arrived to the editing room with a hammer and censored the remaining frames"? 

[Operatsiya_Ivy]

3 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

 

These tables by Tony Williams are not based on any such reports.

 

That's why i used quotation marks on the word based. While it is not directly based on it, he cross referenced it to contemporary trials by the RAF for example. Quote: "There is some reassurance in the fact that the 20 x 80RB M-Geschoss and the 20 x 110 (Hispano) HE emerge with the same score, as a comparative test by the RAF [...]"

 

3 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Its simply an arbitrary calculation that take the KE of the shell fired as basis and almost completely ignores the CE content of the shell, since explosive charge in the calculation is just a multiplier for damage.

3 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

Its not a scientific or engineering based approach, but a rough, ballpark estimate that more or less agrees with anecdotal 'data'.

 

While the KE value is indeed getting multiplied by the CE, i don't understand why you call it in "arbitrary" calculation when it gets clearly stated how and why the calculation is done the way it is. It obviously is a simplification and, like i said before, there are certainly things you can criticize about it, but i have yet to see a more convincing comparative gun effectiveness table. Something that you need to rely upon when you try to create a convincing damage model.

So no, it does not agree with anecdotal data but actual scientific tests.

 

3 minutes ago, VO101Kurfurst said:

relying on these to verify the validity of scientific and engineering based precise calculations that are actually performed in this sim in real time is simply misleading. The tables cannot be used for that, they just give an avarage reader a rough idea but nothing more. BTW Tony himself readily admits that nature of his tables and by no means he wants anyone to take them as a gospel. 

 

I never tried to deligitimize any actual scientific or engineering based precise calculations with it? Like i already said, it is a simplification. I assume you read actual scientific trials, so you should understand that it is not possible to create a DM without simplifying results. The provided table does that in a convincingly matter and is therefor very useful in my opinion. Calculations that attribute KE and CE more equally result in different values but the ratio between different cartridges stays the same roughly. 

 

It sounds like you have a better approach to compare cartridge destructiveness though, i would be interested in that. 

 

[E69_geramos109]

23 minutes ago, JG300_Faucon said:

 

@ECV56_Chimango May I ask why this sentence? " sorry monsieur Faucon arrived to the editing room with a hammer and censored the remaining frames"? 

Looks that he is about to shot the chute. I dont know if you can relate something of that with you. 

 

2 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S! 

 

I have read it though. You go to a dogged and stubborn defence mode of your opinion, every single time. References how there must be a clear German bias because X or Y VVS item does not correspond to your view or posts. And there are quite many neutral posts, but you refuse to accept them at all. 

 

The post about devs answering how they test, with an example of 23mm and 20mm, was very comprehensive and very clear. They have developer tools to easily test and verify data produced in game against real life documents/data. They also stated things are being checked. Yet you argue against it. 

 

How about taking a deep breath and wait for a patch? I am confident issues will be looked into and tested accordingly, adjusted if needed. Until then the game is fully playable. 

You just entered on the German Biased list of people so you can not post until you will reconsider how VVS has bugs to make better the blue side XD

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

@E69_geramos109 To some I might be biased, wrongfully so. I fly more than just axis planes. Especially offline when want to test something or just do some sightseeing P38 is actually one of my favorites. Pe-2 is also a fun plane to fly. And the campaigns have different planes too. 

 

 

[E69_geramos109]

18 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S! 

 

@E69_geramos109 To some I might be biased, wrongfully so. I fly more than just axis planes. Especially offline when want to test something or just do some sightseeing P38 is actually one of my favorites. Pe-2 is also a fun plane to fly. And the campaigns have different planes too. 

 

 

P38 bah... capitalist plane. That does not count XD

[III/JG52_Otto_-I-]

On 4/13/2020 at 12:59 PM, SYN_Haashashin said:

Not useful until tested in SP, its well known around the community by now. MP have several external factors that render any DM, FM test or any ammo effect unusefull (delay times been one) for the most part.

 

Haash

Sooo  neither tests SP or MP are completely useful?? .. because it´s very know that in SP mode, the AI airplanes behavior is completely different to human-piloted airplane in game. AI´s planes seem stronger ussally than human-piloted in Multiplayer.
And your are saying that MP tests, are not usefull too. What´s the solution? 

[kendo]

...latest report from 'your Moscow correspondent'  ?

 

https://forum.il2sturmovik.ru/topic/13303-обсуждение-версии-4005-новая-модель-повреждений-планера-самолёта/page/14/?tab=comments#comment-766955

Firstly, there is variability, it can be confusing.

 

Secondly, the place of impact is of great importance. The same 37 mm projectile can hit 2, 3, 4 times not exactly in the tail, but a little further into the back of the fuselage. Visually, this is not always clear. From this, the plane will not break in half (I hope that no one wants the situation so that the tails fly off a couple of hits), but taking into account the fact that the high-explosive action decreases very much with distance - the plumage in this situation “holds” longer, and can the impression is that the tail is "concrete". However, if you hit exactly the stabilizer, or the steering wheel, you can see all the power of 37 mm or another projectile.

 

Thirdly, if we talk about the criterion “the plane was shot down”, and even more so about the criterion “the plane is out of order”, then this is by no means the same as “the plane annihilated right before our eyes.” This is also worth considering when it comes to counting the number of hits by a particular munition in order to “shoot down” an airplane. Misha wrote correctly above - give him time. If it is clear that the enemy is no longer capable of active opposition, then with a high probability he is left very shortly before he falls.

 

Well and fourthly, as already mentioned here, if there is a desire to check something, then check the adequacy of DM, like FM, it is necessary first of all offline. Because on the network I can’t guarantee that all packets arrive, and so on. We also examined the situation in our tests in the MP that Messer “ate” 8 hits of 37 mm in the tail region. No one could repeat offline.

 

I will answer the remaining questions in the late afternoon, I see there are interesting ones.

[LLv34_Flanker]

S! 

 

@kendoThanks for posting, excellent read. 

[SYN_Haashashin]

9 minutes ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

Sooo  neither tests SP or MP are completely useful?? .. because it´s very know that in SP mode, the AI airplanes behavior is completely different to human-piloted airplane in game. AI´s planes seem stronger ussally than human-piloted in Multiplayer.
And your are saying that MP tests, are not usefull too. What´s the solution? 

I really dont know whats so hard to understand really. This topic is about the efficiencie of ammo in MP right? Well, its has the same values for SP and MP.

Most of all tests are conducted in SP, and it has been done like that past 8 years!! (not counting ROF times of course) It had been said multiple times.

 

Where did I said SP test arent completly useful? Dev team test are performed in SP with their tools and thats for a reason. After SP test they try it in MP, no one saying MP is not tested... If someone dont want to see it, there is nothing I can do.

 

Haash

 

PS: As you see it not my word but the teams and its lead engineer as Kendo translated.

 

 

[III/JG52_Otto_-I-]

13 minutes ago, SYN_Haashashin said:

I really dont know whats so hard to understand really. This topic is about the efficiencie of ammo in MP right? Well, its has the same values for SP and MP.

Most of all tests are conducted in SP, and it has been done like that past 8 years!! (not counting ROF times of course) It had been said multiple times.

 

Where did I said SP test arent completly useful? Dev team test are performed in SP with their tools and thats for a reason. After SP test they try it in MP, no one saying MP is not tested... If someone dont want to see it, there is nothing I can do.

 

Haash

 

PS: As you see it not my word but the teams and its lead engineer as Kendo translated.

 

 

Soo What's the reason because AI´s airplanes behavior different, with different damages, than human-piloted in MP, for similar weapons hits?
Do you know this? 
And yes, This topic is about the efficiencie of ammo in MP,  ... but... Who cares how the ammo hits damaging an AI airplane in SP, if that damages are different than human-piloted airplane.??  I ´ve explain my point correctly ??

[Aero*Bohemio]

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

There is no diminished hitting power from certain weapons when playing online vs. offline. None. It is simply not possible, and quite frankly it's sad that here we are now, on page 5, repeating the same things that were said on page 1.

While i totally understand this, even now on page 5, i still didn’t read in the whole thread yet, an explanation of why there can be such a clear discrepancy showed on the video from time mark 6:12 to 8:12

edit: time stamp corrected

Edited April 15, 2020 by ECV56_Chimango

[SYN_Haashashin]

45 minutes ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

Soo What's the reason because AI´s airplanes behavior different, with different damages, than human-piloted in MP, for similar weapons hits?
Do you know this?

Again...not related to the values given for ammo. Nothing to do with that as they are the same in MP as in SP as well of the DM.

 

45 minutes ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

Who cares how the ammo hits damaging an AI airplane in SP, if that damages are different than human-piloted airplane.??  I ´ve explain my point correctly ??

Again, ammo damage values are the same for MP and SP

 

If you see differences between SP and MP most probably is due to something else, not any value of anything since they are the same for the whole sim. And no matter how many times you turn the argument around, it wont change one bit of that simple, clear fact.

 

If the Lead Engineer is telling you, read above post, to test everything in SP before you do nothing in MP, there is a reason and a good one. You dont want to listen to what the person responsable for all this is telling you and you think MP tests are more important...?? there is nothing I can do about it nor anything else to say from me.

 

Haash

[III/JG52_Otto_-I-]

2 hours ago, SYN_Haashashin said:

 

If the Lead Engineer is telling you, read above post, to test everything in SP before you do nothing in MP, there is a reason and a good one. You dont want to listen to what the person responsable for all this is telling you and you think MP tests are more important...?? there is nothing I can do about it nor anything else to say from me.

 

3 hours ago, SYN_Haashashin said:

PS: As you see it not my word but the teams and its lead engineer as Kendo translated.

I´m sorry, .I had not read Kendo's post because your post announcement, popped-up first, in the forum webpage.