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WokeUpDead

Multiplayer success is all about SA

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I'm coming to the conclusion that success in multiplayer is 80% having better Situational Awareness (SA) than your opponent, 20% everything else, and only half of SA is determined by good in-flight habits (checking six, tracking overall situation, etc) while the other half depends on getting your graphics settings just right. It's the success based on graphics settings that I think is problematic for this game.

 

I've recently tweaked my settings and overnight I've gotten much better results online. I almost never get bounced anymore and do most of the bouncing myself; I hardly ever lose my prey over forests anymore; and I see enemies from far away and can plan my attack well in advance now. That's great, but it kind of sucks that I got this quick and big improvement not through practice but through fiddling around with my Nvidea and IL-2 graphics settings; that shouldn't be the path to success.

 

For an otherwise great game, IL-2 BOX is much too inconsistent in an area that's so important. Here are some factors that have a huge impact on SA and have nothing to do with the skill or discipline of the pilot:

  • Certain settings (cloud quality, I think) can make other planes appear as big black flickering dots when they are in clouds, even at such a distance that they become almost invisible when they leave the cloud
  • Bugs can make certain objects disappear at certain combinations of distance and zoom level
  • Allowing custom skins allows for undetectable exploits that can aid in spotting planes
  • Tracers make nearly invisible planes visible from very far away, impacting pilots' decisions to strafe. Also this gives an advantage to the La5 and its no-tracer ammo option
  • Different combinations of gamma, anti-aliasing, terrain settings and other settings have a huge impact on visibility, and those optimal settings vary from system to system

 

I don't know what it takes for the devs to make SA more consistent for all players while keeping visibility realistic; I'm sure it's very difficult or maybe even impossible? I think this is where we could consider moving the needle a little bit away from realism towards better playability. Some ideas for developers and server admins:

  • Make planes more visible at far distances by increasing the contrast of their pixels against the sky. In IL-2 1946 bombers would be easily visible above the horizon from 20km away, fighters would be a little harder but still fairly easy to notice at that distance. Maybe that's too dumb and easy, but a step or two in that direction might be good.
  • Make planes easier to spot against ground clutter at short to medium distances with markers. One of the 1946 servers I flew on had markers appear above enemy planes very faintly at first at 2km away, becoming brighter and easier to see the closer they got. Another server had a similar system but for friendly planes only; this at least helped with escorting attackers and distinguishing friends from foes in a fur-ball.
  • Speed and navigation info in the lower-left corner of the screen. Yes, this is not realistic, but realistically in a plane you can very quickly glance down at your gauges with your eyeballs only and not lose situational awareness by having to tilt your head down then have to figure out what's going on once you bring it back up again.

 

I think some or all of those suggestions would help level situation awareness issues across players who have figured out how to tweak their graphics and those who have not, without being a substitute to check six, judging distance and energy states of opponents, and other aspects of SA that come from practice and discipline.

Edited by WokeUpDead
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Having just started getting into multiplayer, I think you are dead on with your observations.  On expert vis servers I fly around chasing flak bursts and target reports, rarely seeing a thing and occasionally getting bounced.  I logged onto Berloga the other night and was shocked that I could see aircraft that were 2 miles away, keep them in sight while I closed on them, and then engage in a dogfight.  I did a quick test and in QMB quickly determined that a maneuvering formation of FW-190s is visible to me once I get to about 9km using alternate vis.  On the standard setting that drops to about 1500 meters if they are even slightly high or low (and thus out of the horizon haze).  That makes multiplayer on the standard setting completely unplayable.

 

I’ve tried using reshade and altering my graphics settings, but no real improvement.  Got any tips on how you improved yours?

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3 hours ago, KW_1979 said:

I’ve tried using reshade and altering my graphics settings, but no real improvement.  Got any tips on how you improved yours?

 

Like I said in my post, I think it's completely system-dependent and what works for me may not work for you. I have an old gaming laptop and a 1920 x 1080 monitor that makes me happy when it runs 30fps. In general I think reduce horizon draw distance to minimum (that will add more haze that makes contacts stand out) and use the blurred landscape filter. Then take a track with contacts above and below you then run that track over and over with different settings; gamma and anti-aliasing might make the most difference I believe

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Everything you suggested is already in the game. Alternate visibility option will crank up visibility. Markes and hud can also be turned on in  options menu. 

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2 hours ago, DiscoPhil said:

Everything you suggested is already in the game. Alternate visibility option will crank up visibility. Markes and hud can also be turned on in  options menu. 

Some people take issue with alternate visibility for various reasons. My personal gripe is that planes end up huge at 10km out, but then shrink to tiny imperceptible specs halfway in, then get normal sized in close quarters, and the scaling seems dependent on zoom settings as well - making for a really odd situation where I'd zoom *out* to spot targets at distance. Not perfect and still needs revision imo, but definitely a world of difference. 

The problem is that many servers still use the original "expert" visibility, and spotting planes outright without flak, tracers, or map callouts is virtually impossible on monitors around 19.5-30 inches unless you really tweak your graphics settings. It makes air to air combat inacessible to those people who will go on to think that they're just bad because they keep getting bounced by invisible fighters, when really its a hardware and graphics issue. Hell, I now play on a 36" monitor, and I still lose fighters if they fly over forests, and its especially bad on winter maps with winter planes. It's not a matter of "alternate being available", but that expert spotting is just objectively bad and uncomfortable - it's the worst part of the sim imo.  

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1 hour ago, LemonQuat said:

Some people take issue with alternate visibility for various reasons. My personal gripe is that planes end up huge at 10km out, but then shrink to tiny imperceptible specs halfway in, then get normal sized in close quarters, and the scaling seems dependent on zoom settings as well - making for a really odd situation where I'd zoom *out* to spot targets at distance. 

 

Several players report the same problem. As you zoom in and out, the effect is that planes are teleporting, sometimes just disappearing in mid zoom. It is impossible to get some situational awareness and determine contact distances unless they are really close and won't be affected by the shrinking effect, which then defeats the purpose of it. The popular server for Flying Circus had Alt Vis on for a week to test it, but we voted in a poll to disable it, in part due to these problems that were being reported by old veterans and squadrons. I'm not even sure why some servers still use it. I would say that Alt Vis is plain broken, but since people use it, might be system dependant? I’m not sure.

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For me it is, oh can I deliver this payload despite the fact there are 4 enemies circling the target. 
After that it is, can I survive and come back. 
SA is really all about stay calm and make a plan out of what you know. It apply in real life too. 
Adapting to a new information / situation make always the difference 

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From my layman experience it's actually reflections that make you able to spot an A/C from a very long distance.

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Guys,

 

If you want to complain about visibility please help us understand the issue and provide us a video or screens demonstrating the issue you are experiencing. Many items the OP brings up have already been tweaked several times by us. See my comments in my Ready Room and Officers Club about this general issue. 

 

 

Jason

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6 hours ago, DiscoPhil said:

Everything you suggested is already in the game. Alternate visibility option will crank up visibility. Markes and hud can also be turned on in  options menu. 

 

Yes, this was a post to server admins as much as developers. However, I don't believe there is options for subtlety with the markers though; they can be either off or visible at 9.5km. I was suggesting something in-between.

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1 hour ago, Jason_Williams said:

Guys,

 

If you want to complain about visibility please help us understand the issue and provide us a video or screens demonstrating the issue you are experiencing. Many items the OP brings up have already been tweaked several times by us. See my comments in my Ready Room and Officers Club about this general issue.

Spoiler

 

 

 

Jason

 

. Basically the problem is that airplanes within 1 to 3 kilometers, that we see as a single pixel, disappear when do zoom-in instead of grow the pixels.

People are explaining the problem here..

 

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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What does the devs of IL2 think of bringing in a similar feature from this other combat sim,  in BMS called Smart Scaling? from my time in BMS, i never once been frustrated, had eye strain, or even wanting to poke my eyes out because i couldn't spot  a bandit, even though i know where they are.  

 

Smart scaling specialize in adding a way to bridge a gap between Combat sim and IRL differences.it increases the scaling on distant objects, for example, a MiG at 10 miles might be 4x real size so you can see it better, but when it gets down to 1 mile it has been scaled back to 1x.

 

As a newbie to IL2 world, the problem im facing more than my terrible SA is that it seems objects/units won't render at a center distance. I had occasions were i see tracers but i don't see the plane, same goes for ground units.. at a distance, it may be just a regular field.. but when you get closer and start to zoom in, then targets start to pop up.  https://streamable.com/xvnmm

 

this video showcase the advantages of using smart scaling 

 

 

 

 

Edited by MechSauce
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5 minutes ago, MechSauce said:

What does the devs of IL2 think of bringing in a similar feature from this other combat sim,  in BMS called Smart Scaling? from my time in BMS, i never once been frustrated, had eye strain, or even wanting to poke my eyes out because i couldn't spot  a bandit, even though i know where they are.  

 

Smart scaling specialize in adding a way to bridge a gap between Combat sim and IRL differences.it increases the scaling on distant objects, for example, a MiG at 10 miles might be 4x real size so you can see it better, but when it gets down to 1 mile it has been scaled back to 1x.

 

As a newbie to IL2 world, the problem im facing more than my terrible SA is that it seems objects/units won't render at a center distance. I had occasions were i see tracers but i don't see the plane, same goes for ground units.. at a distance, it may be just a regular field.. but when you get closer and start to zoom in, then targets start to pop up.  https://streamable.com/xvnmm

 

this video showcase the advantages of using smart scaling 

 

 

 

 

Il2 certainly used mild scaling at some stage. Someone took some screenshots of a flyable i16 parked next to a i16 scenery object and the flyable one was much larger. This was many months ago (in a time when we had a 9.5km visibility "bubble") and I'm not getting confused with the "alternate visibility" thing. 

So I'm guessing the Dev's are well aware of the use of scaling, seeing as they used it.

 

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S! 

 

Issues what I have encountered frequently while playing online are planes simply disappearing from plain sight within a couple of kilometets, ground targets like trucks etc not rendering outside approximately 1km, ships popping in and out of view while zooming, invisible planes even they sit next to me on tarmac etc.

 

And what adds to these spotting issues in a very negative way is how there is some kind of a film/layer on every windscreen and canopy. The random scratches and dirtspots/fingerprints do not help either.

 

These issues together make the gaming experience a very frustrating one at worst, somewhat manageable at best. Spotting issues have been the most annoying issues since day one. Nobody is asking for a spot'em all at any range visibility, but something that makes the game playable without resorting to voodoo magic. 

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2 hours ago, MechSauce said:

What does the devs of IL2 think of bringing in a similar feature from this other combat sim,  in BMS called Smart Scaling?

“Smart scaling” is incredibly awful because it draws objects way out of scale. This game features air to ground action so you’d see aircraft awkwardly larger against unscaled ground objects. 
 

There is not much wrong with visibility in IL-2. Its just something that some players have trouble with but it’s impossible to know why. If they play BMS then the reason for their trouble is clear enough, they’re spoiled by seeing aircraft rendered at double the normal size. 

18 hours ago, WokeUpDead said:

I'm coming to the conclusion that success in multiplayer is 80% having better Situational Awareness (SA) than your opponent,

Real air combat is like that too. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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2 hours ago, MechSauce said:

What does the devs of IL2 think of bringing in a similar feature from this other combat sim,  in BMS called Smart Scaling? from my time in BMS, i never once been frustrated, had eye strain, or even wanting to poke my eyes out because i couldn't spot  a bandit, even though i know where they are.  

 

Smart scaling specialize in adding a way to bridge a gap between Combat sim and IRL differences.it increases the scaling on distant objects, for example, a MiG at 10 miles might be 4x real size so you can see it better, but when it gets down to 1 mile it has been scaled back to 1x.

 

As a newbie to IL2 world, the problem im facing more than my terrible SA is that it seems objects/units won't render at a center distance. I had occasions were i see tracers but i don't see the plane, same goes for ground units.. at a distance, it may be just a regular field.. but when you get closer and start to zoom in, then targets start to pop up.  https://streamable.com/xvnmm

 

this video showcase the advantages of using smart scaling 

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing new here. We already do such scaling and make objects appear larger then they actually are. Again, we have changed nothing in 0-10km range from before. At least that's not what we meant to do. We only attempted to change 10km+. Whatever you guys are experiencing is either a bug or shading issue. I'm not convinced it is an LOD issue necessarily. I personally have no problem with seeing things close range. 

 

Jason

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31 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Real air combat is like that too.

 

Yes, that's why it's so important for the game to get the technical issues of spotting as good as possible. If it's not possible to make the field as level and bug-free as possible for this critically important aspect, then more tools and options should be made available for the server admins to level the field themselves.

 

1 minute ago, Jason_Williams said:

 

 Whatever you guys are experiencing is either a bug or shading issue. I'm not convinced it is an LOD issue necessarily. I personally have no problem with seeing things close range.

 

I don't either anymore but I did before and it took too much time tweaking the graphics instead of actually playing the game to get it right. And it sucks to think that there are more players out there who are still being held back not by their lack of skill or commitment to the game, but their lack of skill and commitment to their game graphics and graphics card options.

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1 hour ago, Jason_Williams said:

 

Nothing new here. We already do such scaling and make objects appear larger then they actually are. Again, we have changed nothing in 0-10km range from before. At least that's not what we meant to do. We only attempted to change 10km+. Whatever you guys are experiencing is either a bug or shading issue. I'm not convinced it is an LOD issue necessarily. I personally have no problem with seeing things close range. 

 

Jason

At close ranges the spotting is fairly good, at least with my rig. The real suffering comes in that 10-5km range where the contacts are understandably tiny, and the pixels tend to blend in with the background landscape and even just the plain sky around dusk/dawn. The contacts tend to blend in with the general fuzziness of the horizon, probably as a result of the DOF effects and SSAO. Turning off SSAO does make things pop out more, but in general the contacts at mid range lack contrast with the background. Reflections really help with spotting, and I hope they can be utilized more, especially at that 10-5km range where every little bit of help is needed spotting targets without alternate vis.

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3 hours ago, WokeUpDead said:

 

I don't either anymore but I did before and it took too much time tweaking the graphics instead of actually playing the game to get it right. And it sucks to think that there are more players out there who are still being held back not by their lack of skill or commitment to the game, but their lack of skill and commitment to their game graphics and graphics card options.

Most of what I read is people screwing up their settings in an attempt to make it better but accomplishing the opposite. So in that sense, yeah it’s a contest of getting your settings correct although that’s different than what many do. 

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2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Most of what I read is people screwing up their settings in an attempt to make it better but accomplishing the opposite. So in that sense, yeah it’s a contest of getting your settings correct although that’s different than what many do. 

 

I have the exact opposite impression. It's mostly people leaving their settings as they have for all other games and programs and having spotting problems since day one, or getting spotting problems after an update.

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S! 

 

I have played pretty much every sim out there and BoX has had most issues with spotting. DCS being a good competitor in this department, but has improved quite a bit lately. 

 

For example the blending with terrain issue. It is like the plane puts on a Romulan cloaking device. It simply vanishes in thin air. When I tested VR it was less of an issue as the 3D effect popped the plane out of the background. This made spotting easier by a margin, at close range. 

 

People would not need to use 3rd party programs if we had a proper graphics setup. It was there in the beginning and worked just fine, as it did and does in RoF. Force feeding presets that you have no idea what they do, is like mocking the players. Making a really good preset is hard, as it might work just fine on some system, but not on others. 

 

Take the Bloom effect for example. I hate it to the boot. Do not understand why it has to be there. Have disabled it from the startup.cfg. Easier would be to just have it as an option in a menu. Like most of the games out there have, a good way to tweak your graphical experience. And also explained what each settings does. 

 

Hope lies in the future when deferred rendering is supposed to help with issues. I really hope so as I do not enjoy that much having an experience that frustrates more than anything else. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Well after taking WokeUpDead's advice, I spent some time just grinding on graphics settings.  Voila - 4 kill sortie on Combat Box my first time out with the new settings.  I promptly got buck fever and finished the sortie by accidentally ramming my last victim while shooting him lol.  Anyway, slight tweaks to AA, SSAO, Mirrors etc as well as reshade running in the background and now I can see a single-engined fighter in normal vis at around 7-9km and keep them in view as I close in. 

 

It's still not easy to see stuff - you have to work to spot them.  And I'm fine with that - sometimes in real life it takes some effort to spot traffic and that's with ATC or your TCAS pointing you in the right direction of an airplane that is painted white or some other bright color.  But now I can actually see a low flying enemy and bounce them where before that was simply impossible.  When I have some days off next I'll try to put together some screenshots demonstrating what I'm seeing if its possible.  Maybe we just need a nice guide put together to help point people in the right direction on getting their setup correct, but it sure would be nice if you could get this result out of the box.  Obviously that's going to be tough with different eyes and different hardware.

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S!

 

@KW_1979 This is exactly what I mean. You have ReShade running with it´s own tweaks and effects on the game, you have fiddled with other settings as well. Just to see something that you basically are unable to see most of the times if using only in-game options. And that is what sucks most, necessity to use external programs to achieve something that should be there from the start. With proper graphics settings menu we could, but that is out of the question it seems.

 

 Let´s take Cliffs of Dover, a 1C product, so not a competitor. I run the Blitz Edition v4.57. Spotting there is better in many ways making it a bit easier to maintain SA. Glints from canopies, surfaces reflecting sun etc. While maybe it is not "realistic", it is most importantly playable! I do not spot planes across the Channel, I do have to search for them, but when I enage a fight the dot/planes do not vanish into thin air. I can read the situation better compared to BoX. It just works without being arcade.

 

BoX draws terrain very nicely far out, using the 150km setting. Sure tree circle is there etc. but so it is on other sims as well. But in general the terrain details, towns, airfields are nicely done and visible. The overall feel is very nice, especially on Kuban. One of the best, if not the best, map in the game at the moment. It is just that certain objects and planes do not draw or whatever so well degrading from the overall experience. So this is why I hope the new rendering system will help with those issues. And maybe one day having a full graphical options interface..

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16 hours ago, Jason_Williams said:

 

Nothing new here. We already do such scaling and make objects appear larger then they actually are. Again, we have changed nothing in 0-10km range from before. At least that's not what we meant to do. We only attempted to change 10km+. Whatever you guys are experiencing is either a bug or shading issue. I'm not convinced it is an LOD issue necessarily. I personally have no problem with seeing things close range. 

 

Jason

@Jason_Williams We don't pretend to spot a small airplane in the game more than 10 km away, because It´is almost impossible in real life. But the contacts visibility problem at short-medium distance range exist, and many of us suffer it.
You can see the problem in this video taken by @E69_geramos109 ..I'm working for search other explicit examples about the zoom problem right now.


@Jason_Willians If you don't suffer this visibility problem, I think that It would be very interesting to know your graphics settings.

6 hours ago, KW_1979 said:

Maybe we just need a nice guide put together to help point people in the right direction on getting their setup correct, but it sure would be nice if you could get this result out of the box.  Obviously that's going to be tough with different eyes and different hardware.

I think, that It would be better if that "perfect spotting" settings, would be added, in the  game "default settings".

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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Perhaps if the devs, buff the scaling a tad more and see how the community feels is a better approach to this situation, rather than whats the stats and data. With the feedback from the community the devs can easily nerf/revert the scaling. 

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6 hours ago, MechSauce said:

Perhaps if the devs, buff the scaling a tad more and see how the community feels is a better approach to this situation, rather than whats the stats and data. With the feedback from the community the devs can easily nerf/revert the scaling. 

There’s already a scaled up mode with the Alternate Visibility setting. The community opinion on it is apparent in that it’s not used on any of the popular servers. 

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43 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s already a scaled up mode with the Alternate Visibility setting. The community opinion on it is apparent in that it’s not used on any of the popular servers. 

 

 

That sucks, so what jason was saying about theres already a scaling feature.. but MP server dont use it ? any reason for this?

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S!

 

 The Alternate Visibility caused planes to be seen tens of kilometres out, almost across some maps, as bright dots. Also the scaling had issues which were seen easily when zooming etc. Quite a mess really rather than a fix. Some servers use it still, most the "realistic" one.  

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15 hours ago, MechSauce said:

 

 

That sucks, so what jason was saying about theres already a scaling feature.. but MP server dont use it ? any reason for this?

Servers don’t generally use it because it allows you to see other aircraft at very unrealistic ranges. The majority of players online prefer realistic settings. 

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On 2/24/2020 at 5:15 PM, Jason_Williams said:

 

Nothing new here. We already do such scaling and make objects appear larger then they actually are. Again, we have changed nothing in 0-10km range from before. At least that's not what we meant to do. We only attempted to change 10km+. Whatever you guys are experiencing is either a bug or shading issue. I'm not convinced it is an LOD issue necessarily. I personally have no problem with seeing things close range. 

 

Jason

Hi Jason. I read your Officer Club post on spotting and I appreciate that you guys are working on the spotting.

 

I do think there has been some miscommunication about what the problem was, based your description of events in your post. To be clear, I think that your impression of events is entirely understandable.

 

The bubble was never the main issue. The spotting under 10km and especially under 4-6 was always the main problem. However, players knew the bubble existed and this led most people who complained over the years to blame it on the bubble. Understandably, you guys fixed the bubble, but people are still not happy because they still feel blind. (because the real problem was not the bubble.) All the reports of spotting problems post BOBP are as far as I can not bugs, but rather people losing contacts when the new system stops kicking in over 10 km, or whatever range it works at. Right now, I can sit 40km (or more) from an airbase and watch someone take off, but they become much harder to see as they get closer, so hard in fact that the only way to keep track is to zoom all the way in, and I still sometimes lose them. The real problem is and always had been the spotting system in general, not just the bubble. Only since the bubble was fixed have most people started complaining about the up close spotting, because since the bubble variable has been removed it has become more obvious to more people what the real problem was.

 

I would also like to add that while you said this will not be a quick fix because you are dedicated to getting it right on the next revision, this bit is frustrating for many of us. This issue has a hugely negative impact on game-play, in in many peoples opinion, realism. There are also tons of solutions available, that have been implemented in many games over the years. Aces High did it was LOD adjustments and dots, there is whatever Cliffs of Dover Does (which is excellent btw), BMS's smart scaling (which is apparently done more aggressively than is done in IL2GB), and ironically War Thunders spotting system given how goofy that game is (except at super long ranges where it uses an absurdly huge dot, like 20km plus). There is also the scaling you said is already in game. Couldn't any of these options, even just more aggressively applying the scaling you said is already in game, be implemented relatively quickly as opposed to waiting until you have some super-duper perfect solution? Perfection being the enemy of good etc. At least to me, and I a large number of other people given the forum activity since 3.0, the spotting issue is the most critical or one of the most critical issues in the game. It affects all facets of game play. Almost every other feature you could add as opposed to spotting will be negatively impacted by the spotting.

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More like the community opinion on it is apparent in the overall lacking number of servers.  

 

I figured BP was suppose to take this thing off like a rocket, instead my whole squad hung the thing up to dry.  Put it simply, its painful, we don't care to fight it, don't have that kind of time to fly visually empty servers, nor wasting time simply trying to find each other once separated.  Getting us all back truthfully ain't going to be easy on your end, if that's even possible at this point.  

 

 

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48 minutes ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

Getting us all back truthfully ain't going to be easy on your end, if that's even possible at this point.  

I agree that it is painful obviously, but if they fixed the spotting I would be much much more into the game the instant they did it.

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S!

 

 Spotting has been one of biggest issue why people have dropped or left IL-2 after a while, sadly. People talk how hard seeing things is. I can spot a car driving on the road from a plane going at 3km altitude IRL. In game can´t see it without zoom from 1km or so. Same applies to some structures/objects in game, they simply are not drawn, even from close range. The terrain draws well, thanks to the new settings. No issues there. Really nice and sharp out to long ranges. Maybe the rendering/shading updates later on will address the issues or at least reduce the negative things.

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26 minutes ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S!

 

 Spotting has been one of biggest issue why people have dropped or left IL-2 after a while, sadly. People talk how hard seeing things is. I can spot a car driving on the road from a plane going at 3km altitude IRL. In game can´t see it without zoom from 1km or so. Same applies to some structures/objects in game, they simply are not drawn, even from close range. The terrain draws well, thanks to the new settings. No issues there. Really nice and sharp out to long ranges. Maybe the rendering/shading updates later on will address the issues or at least reduce the negative things.

 

Just for giggles I made a few notes the other day when I had some clear weather.  Now my vision is still a bit better than 20/20 uncorrected, but I'm 40 now and it's not what it used to be.  I'm sure plenty of the guys flying during WWII had better eyes by far.  Anyway - cars driving on the highway were still visible to me at 15,000ft plus at least a few miles of offset.  Big rigs were visible at 25,000ft.  That's just not possible in game at the moment - at least with my setup.

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16 hours ago, KW_1979 said:

 

Just for giggles I made a few notes the other day when I had some clear weather.  Now my vision is still a bit better than 20/20 uncorrected, but I'm 40 now and it's not what it used to be.  I'm sure plenty of the guys flying during WWII had better eyes by far.  Anyway - cars driving on the highway were still visible to me at 15,000ft plus at least a few miles of offset.  Big rigs were visible at 25,000ft.  That's just not possible in game at the moment - at least with my setup.

 

 

thats one problem,  an example of it would be if anyone here plays dcs and using trackir. If your in the cockpit and your in default view, you barely get a good read on the screens/mfcds, but i heard in real life.. pilots can see them perfectly.

 

spotting isnt actually bad from my opinion but the one thing i hate is how sometimes they disappear or doesnt render in, until i get closer 

best example for this are nav lights and tracers, you can see them far out but u cant see the plane itself. not even a dot.

 

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I'm not worried about seeing a big rig at 25,000 ft, that's never going to happen until we have game resolutions close to the Mk 1 eyeball and the resolution/pixel limitations will always be a problem for the foreseeable and affordable future.

 

What really matters is that in a game that relies almost exclusively on seeing your enemy those enemies are unrealistically hard to see and do tend to disappear at times. I am tinkering with shaders to the point where a/c almost have halos to keep tabs on them. I am also trying to understand nvidia's new shader tools. It shouldn't be necessary. Most gamers wouldn't know where to start. These technical barriers are what cause many people to reach for their game consoles.

 

I don't really care what the solution is, that is for Jason's team to resolve. I'm not getting into graphics technicalities, most gamers wouldn't understand them anyway. The fact that the serious player base is dissatisfied tells Jason all he needs to know.

 

I fly IL-2 BG only because my friends of many years fly there in the absence of a more playable game. I much prefer the game that is regarded as the very best combat sim in terms of realism but has had a hard time getting the game play right. I would be off like a shot if my friends found it acceptable simply because whilst IL-2 BG gameplay is about as good as you can get in low volume player environments, the simple fact that I find seeing a/c difficult and inconsistent is a game breaker for me. I don't enjoy the combat environment because of visibility issues although I do enjoy the company of my friends. That's a pretty severe condemnation of a game. Fix it and I will be over the moon.

 

Previous posters are correct. The one huge elephant in the room is visibility and should be addressed now, not wait for some super-solution down the line. It should be the main focus of the entire dev team. New planes are sometimes interesting but the visibility problem from all of them is the same painfuil experience.

 

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I agree with the op that the success in MP is mostly about SA. As it was in real life. But there the comparison to the real life ends, this is the one topic where the 100% realism can`t be expected or achieved. 

 

Because of the huge variety of the peoples hardware, it`s impossible to make absolutely realistic spotting in any game. I think the main goal should be to get it more or less even for everybody regardless of their display and settings. It means that it can`t be too `realistic`, because in that case people who happens to have hardware that is well suited (for some reason) for it, gets the advantage. Rest just can`t adjust their settings in any reasonable way to achieve same level of spotting and are in disadvantage. 

 

It sure is not easy to find the right balance to the spotting regardless of players hardware and settings. But in this case the even playground is much better than the ultimate realism. That`s why I liked the alternative spotting more even with it`s flaws. 

Edited by LLv24_Zami
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7 hours ago, LLv24_Zami said:

Because of the huge variety of the peoples hardware, it`s impossible to make absolutely realistic spotting in any game. I think the main goal should be to get it more or less even for everybody regardless of their display and settings. It means that it can`t be too `realistic`, because in that case people who happens to have hardware that is well suited (for some reason) for it, gets the advantage. Rest just can`t adjust their settings in any reasonable way to achieve same level of spotting and are in disadvantage.

 

Thanks Zami, this paragraph and specifically what I highlighted summarizes what I was trying to say very well.

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This translates to "icons for all' provided the contact is close enough. I'm for it, to be clear, but it's a sacrilege for the hard-core people.:scratch_one-s_head:

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35 minutes ago, sniperton said:

This translates to "icons for all' provided the contact is close enough. I'm for it, to be clear, but it's a sacrilege for the hard-core people.:scratch_one-s_head:

No, it does not. 

 

 

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