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MiG-3 flaps issue?

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hello,

 

I can't seem to figure out the flap limiter/release of Mig3 after the 4.x patch update.

 

1) How it worked before the update:

- Flaps retracted. 

- I long-press "Flaps UP" to set the flaps limiter to a certain percentage. It set the flap limiter.

- I press "Flaps Down" and the flaps are extended to the pre-set percentage limiter from previous step

- I press "Flaps UP" to retract the flap

 

2) How it works now:

- Flaps retracted

- I long-press "Flaps UP" to set the flaps limiter and nothing happens/changes

- I long-press "Flaps Down" and the flaps start extending to whatever percentage you want/need them to extend. They extend to that percentage and stay extended.

- I shot-press "Flaps UP" to retract the flaps. Nothing happens.

- I long-press "Flaps UP" and they slowly start retracting.

 

 

- Am I missing a binding somewhere? In the key assignments there's only Flaps Up and Flaps Down...

- Or there's no more "flaps limiter" operation in Mig 3, i.e. it was never available and the old system of operation was wrong/incorrect?

 

Edited by Count_de_Money

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I've encountered similar problems. When I tested the flaps on the ground in third person, something I noticed is that the flaps would do the following behavior:

1. On "EXTEND FLAPS," flaps would extend to the set flap limiter percentage (at 0% iirc they don't extend at all, and generally the MiG-3 starts with the flap limiter at 0%)

2. Holding the button to extend flaps, the flap limiter percentage will climb towards 100%. From the exterior of the plane, the flaps raise until the button is released, and then the flaps lower back to that percentage

3. The same behavior (iirc) is observed in reverse.

 

It's very odd. I wish that the flap limiter was an axis separate to the flaps themselves, at least for planes that have them. 

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On 1/2/2020 at 12:18 AM, 666GIAP_Necathor said:

Hey Count, flaps on Mig don´t work properly. Same happens to me.  

 

thank you for confirming it..

 

not sure why the devs would break it... They were fine until the patch to 'fix' the flaps, when in reality it actually broke it by making them work exactly the same as on other planes bypassing the concept of "flap limiter".

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I've noticed the same thing.  

 

Am I correct in saying that the after setting the limiter, you're supposed to be able to fully retract the flaps without setting the limiter back to zero?  Or, is it meant to operate that high speeds keep the flaps 'compressed' shut and the limiter works as intended?

19 hours ago, FarflungWanderer said:

 

 

It's very odd. I wish that the flap limiter was an axis separate to the flaps themselves, at least for planes that have them. 

 

This.

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After patch 4.001  the flaps on the MiG-3 will now *retract* while you press the button to deploy them. (as intended by the devs, and covered in the patch log)

 

Here's the situation:

  • Set flaps limiter to some percentage below 100%
  • Press & Hold button to deploy flaps
  • watch as your flaps retract while you adjust the limiter towards 100%
  • release the button to deploy flaps
  • watch as your flaps extend to the limiter

 

This has been causing me some headachs while landing as i can very suddenly drop out of the sky if i nudge a button, or if i release a button my aircraft violently pitches upward. is there a way to adjust the limiter without extending the flaps? 

Edited by Kataphrakt
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I posted about the 4.001 patch issue with Mig3 flaps in complaints and bugs.

 

Did you actually manage to get the flap limiter to work? I.e. set it and watch the flaps extend to it?

 

In my experience if I set the flap limiter to whatever value and then press 'flaps down'  nothing actually happens. I actually have to press and hold the "flaps down" button for the flaps to start extending. I.e. they operate similar to 109 flaps.. the longer you press it the further they extend. 

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3 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

I posted about the 4.001 patch issue with Mig3 flaps in complaints and bugs.

 

Did you actually manage to get the flap limiter to work? I.e. set it and watch the flaps extend to it?

 

In my experience if I set the flap limiter to whatever value and then press 'flaps down'  nothing actually happens. I actually have to press and hold the "flaps down" button for the flaps to start extending. I.e. they operate similar to 109 flaps.. the longer you press it the further they extend. 

nope, as far as i can tell it's just flaps with some extra steps that drop you outta the sky. I've not been able to get the limiter set above 0% with the flaps retracted. When i hold the flaps down button it just extends the limiter until i release, then the flaps go. 

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6 minutes ago, Kataphrakt said:

nope, as far as i can tell it's just flaps with some extra steps that drop you outta the sky. I've not been able to get the limiter set above 0% with the flaps retracted. When i hold the flaps down button it just extends the limiter until i release, then the flaps go. 

 

hmm..

 

in the pre-4.001 patch days it used to work like this:

- push Flaps UP button to set the limiter (starts at 100%, then goes lower the longer you press Flaps UP). If you don't adjust the limiter and simply push "flaps down" the flaps extend 100%.

- once the limiter is set you momentarily  push Flaps Down button and the flaps extend to the limiter value you set in the previous step

 

Neither step works now. Flaps UP doesn't change the limiter. And I need to hold the Flaps Down button for the flaps to start extending.. the longer I press it the further they extend.. There's no momentary "flaps down" push button action anymore..

 

edit: added some clarification..

Edited by Count_de_Money

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1 minute ago, Count_de_Money said:

in the pre-4.001 patch days it used to work like this:

- push Flaps UP button to set the limiter (starts at 100%, then goes lower the longer you press Flaps UP)

- once the limiter is set you push Flaps Down button and the flaps extend to the limiter value you set in the previous step

 

Neither step works now. Flaps UP doesn't change the limiter. And I need to hold the Flaps Down button for the flaps to start extending.. the longer I press it the further they extend..

Yes, the flap limiter now seems to start at 0%, but i cant retract the flaps once extended unless i drop the limiter to 0% (tapping retract causes them to retract, then redeploy)

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5 minutes ago, Kataphrakt said:

Yes, the flap limiter now seems to start at 0%, but i cant retract the flaps once extended unless i drop the limiter to 0% (tapping retract causes them to retract, then redeploy)

 

weird.. all my attempts at using the momentary button pushes (up or down) resulted in zero flaps operation... whether the limiter was set to 100% or anything above 0.. And you're saying it actually works, albeit confusingly...

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44 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

weird.. all my attempts at using the momentary button pushes (up or down) resulted in zero flaps operation... whether the limiter was set to 100% or anything above 0.. And you're saying it actually works, albeit confusingly...

Yes it kinda works, but also does not make much sense to me in how it works. The best explanation would be:

 

  • flaps are always "deploying" to the limiter regardless of setting flaps to extend or retract
  • when the limiter is adjusted the flaps retract, then when it stops adjusting they are extended back to the limiter 

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If you look to the left side of the cockpit, there are two controls: a little handle with three positions (up, neutral, down), and a wheel that controls the limiter.

 

Normally, the handle is in the neutral position. When you hold F, the pilot first puts the handle in the up position (flaps go up), then uses the wheel to set the limit. Once you release F, the pilot puts the handle in the down position and the flaps deploy to their limit.

 

When you hold Shift-F, the pilot first puts the handle in the up position (flaps go up), then uses the wheel to set the limit. When you release Shift-F, the pilot puts the handle in the down position again (flaps go down), unless the limit is at 0, in which case he puts it in the neutral position.

 

I think the key question is "Could the MiG-3 safely be flown with the limiter extended and the handle in the up or neutral position"?

 

It's possible that the pneumatic system used can't hold the flaps up on its own for extended periods. If that's the case, flying around with the limiter extended might result in flaps spontaneously deploying once the pneumatic system runs out of pressure. The only safe way to fly the MiG would be as modeled in the sim: once the flaps have been retracted, the pilot must raise the limiter to 0 before returning the handle to neutral.

 

This is just speculation on my part though, and it would be nice if the devs could confirm it, because it has confused a lot of people.

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5 hours ago, Charon said:

I think the key question is "Could the MiG-3 safely be flown with the limiter extended and the handle in the up or neutral position"?

 

It's possible that the pneumatic system used can't hold the flaps up on its own for extended periods. If that's the case, flying around with the limiter extended might result in flaps spontaneously deploying once the pneumatic system runs out of pressure. The only safe way to fly the MiG would be as modeled in the sim: once the flaps have been retracted, the pilot must raise the limiter to 0 before returning the handle to neutral.

 

This is just speculation on my part though, and it would be nice if the devs could confirm it, because it has confused a lot of people.

I hadn't thought about that and it seems like a plausible explanation. The pneumatic actuators do have a difficult time deploying the flaps when at high speeds

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All I can say is with 4.001 any competitiveness that MIG3 had against 109's in multi-player for slow speed yoyo's and horizontal scissors has been removed completely.   Everyone and their mother uses flaps to slow down the aircraft during a pursuit so the enemy will overshoot. The 109 pilots are notorious for this tactic. With the "new and improved" flaps the plane no longer has any ability to reduce the speed to prevent an overshoot.  It'll be my second aircraft (after LAGG) to start collecting dust in its proverbial digital storage box.

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They simply need to create a binding for flap limiter settings. I know they want to avoid as many extraneous bindings as necessary, but in this case its such a niche usage that those who want it will have no problem configuring it. 

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The flaps in the Mig-3 does really operate in a strange way like this. It is a pain in the ass and for me it no fun anymore to use the Mig-3. I wish there would be a better solution

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I wonder... how the Mig3 Flaps and limiter worked in real life? 

 

What I understand is: you have a limiter, you can set it to whatever angle you want. But that WONT MOVE the flaps.

 

Then you have a "retract" and "release" "buttons" to actually move the flaps, to whatever angle you set the limiter at.

 

I dont get it what would be the advantage and real usage of the flaps as they are implemented right now.

 

I dont use the flaps in the Mig at all, since I hate its implementation, I find the flaps useless now, as it creates a distraction during the flight that doesn't compensate the advantage of having flaps in your plane.

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Is this now fixed in 4.005? I did not notice it, but it seems the Mig3 'flies' much nicer now. Killed 6 109 Fs in a row in a dogfight ...

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4 hours ago, jollyjack said:

Is this now fixed in 4.005? I did not notice it, but it seems the Mig3 'flies' much nicer now. Killed 6 109 Fs in a row in a dogfight ...

 

No, nothing has been "fixed", because there was nothing to fix:

 

 

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Ok, that explains the long press behavior.

 

I think the short press (where the flaps are supposed to open/close up to the limiter) is still bugged because it doesn't do anything in any flap/limiter setting.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/10/2020 at 4:46 AM, LukeFF said:

 

No, nothing has been "fixed", because there was nothing to fix:

 

 


There is still a problem with the flaps control scheme, if you have your flaps set at 50% for example, and you want to quickly retract them (without changing the limiter) the pilot only needs to push the lever up so the flaps are fully retracted, then return to neutral. But in game this is currently not possible to do. If you press the flaps up key the pilot will start adjusting the limiter, and only once it reaches limiter 0% the flaps will remain retracted. If you aren't at 0% limiter and just quickly tap the flaps up key nothing happens.

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

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Posted (edited)

Bump - I cannot get this to work either. You can only retract the flaps by winding the limiter to 0%. A short tap on "retract flaps" just makes them go up then down again. The problem is that the game is trying to combine the effect of two separate controls in the cockpit (the "flaps up/down" handle and the "set flap limiter" wheel) into a single key action.

 

I am sure it used to work as designed in earlier versions of the game, but it's definitely broken now.

 

Edited by NickM

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I have seen what Han says about it working as it should but his explanation does not match what happens in game.

 

1) It makes no difference whether you hold the 'Retract' key or not.

2)The way it now works makes no sense and is actually very dangerous so I find it hard to believe the Mig-3 designers made a special effort to build such a system.   If your research shows they really did then I apologise and will accept it was just one of those crazy wartime mistakes but can you please first watch the following 40 second video to see if there is a bug or if I am misunderstanding how to use it.

 

https://youtu.be/1CXzORxii2E

 

If that is the intended operation then it means that a person on Finals with half flap who realises he needs full flaps quickly will see the flaps fully retract to 0% just when he needs *more* flaps then suddenly drop to 100% probably causing a stall.   Similarly in a fight you are riding the edge of a stall in a turn and decide that adding 20% flaps will help you turn tight but instead  you get you get the flaps retracting fully then suddenly get all 20% in one go and likely stall.

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Posted (edited)

The bug that I see now is that the flaps do not retract when you press "retract".

 

Other than that what Han describes coincides with what I was expecting (to set the limiter the flaps first retract, limiter is set, flaps release); that makes sense from a mechanical point of view as well considering the actuators used back then (if it's under tension with deployed flaps then setting the limiter would need to fight against said tension, so instead you retract which stops the pressure on the flaps, set the limiter and redeploy).

 

What does not make sense is that the flaps do not retract at all when you press retract but you need to keep it pressed until the limiter is set to zero. You can see them quickly going up just fine while you keep the retract flaps button pressed, as soon as you release it they deploy again.

Edited by Firdimigdi

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My speculation is that the pneumatic system which drives the flaps loses pressure and can't hold them up on its own for long periods. Flying around with the limiter extended and the flap control in the up position would eventually result in the flaps spontaneously deploying.  If that's the case, the only safe way to fly it would be as modeled in the sim: the pilot first puts the handle in the up position to raise them, then sets the limiter to 0, then resets the handle to neutral.

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I noticed while playing online that the MiG-3's flaps don't seem to work the way they are supposed to. 

 

From my understanding  the flaps on the MiG-3 are supposed to drop down to the preset limiter angle when the release button is pressed. And retracted when you press the retract button.

Right now they function more like normal flaps where if you drop the limiter the flaps drop with them and when you retract the limiter the flaps come up with them. 

 

The track below should explain all.

 

 

 

freeflight.2020-09-04_21-50-39_00.zip

Edited by [1Tac]DisCHQ
Changed track to one that is more clear.

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@LukeFF The situation that isn't currently portrayed in the sim is if the pilot wants to utilize the flaps retract or extend without touching the limiter wheel.

Example:

Flaps are at 0%, pilot puts the wheel limiter to 50% and extends them, but then by just operating the flap lever it should be able to make them either retract or deploy up to 50% quickly and easily, and this is the task that can't be achieved with the current control scheme in game. If you press the key to retract the flaps the pilot will start to operate the limiter wheel, and if that position is different from 0% the pilot then will pull the lever to the down position once the key is released.

So the only way to fully retract the flaps is to wait until the pilot turns the limiter wheel all the way towards 0% but it should be able to leave the limiter as it is and only make use of the lever.

The solution would be to create a new keybind for the limiter wheel, and then the flap lever to follow the regular flap control keybind.

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12 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

There's one scenario missing from the post you linked: Flaps are extended (whether they're limited doesn't matter). I want to retract them completely.

 

If I understand it correctly, in real life this should be as easy as setting the flaps valve to "retract". *However*, when I press shift-F to do exactly that, the game seems to think I want to move the flaps limiter instead and returns the flaps to "extend" once I release shift-F. I haven't yet found any way to get the flaps to permanently retract.

 

Could you give the correct procedure for the scenario above, i.e. retracting extended flaps?

Edited by AEthelraedUnraed

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On 9/4/2020 at 11:44 PM, LukeFF said:

 

 

@LukeFF I think you should read other people's comments instead of just linking that one reply, which does not address what is being discussed right now.

 

I also agree that we should have the possibility to control just the flaps valve separately (for example by short pressing the extend/retract flaps keys) instead of the valve always ending in the released position unless the limiter is returned to 0. The flaps on the P-38 already behave differently based on whether the user short pressed or long pressed the flaps key, so I believe it should not be too difficult to implement it.

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my biggest pet peeve with Mig-3 is that it became rather noncompetitive in the MP world after these flap changes. I used to fly it a lot.. like a lot in MP, and it was a rather challenging but still manageable platform. But as everyone knows the MP fights  are all about making the bogey on your 6 to overshoot in upclose-and-personal dog fights. Without the quick flaps operation Mig3 becomes a boom and zoom fighter, akin to a FW but with lackluster firepower. On one hand it's "more realistic" and teaches you how to improve your gunnery for a single-pass kill, however on another hand it's a sitting duck if you miscalculated.

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5 hours ago, Didney_World said:

my biggest pet peeve with Mig-3 is that it became rather noncompetitive in the MP world after these flap changes. I used to fly it a lot.. like a lot in MP, and it was a rather challenging but still manageable platform. But as everyone knows the MP fights  are all about making the bogey on your 6 to overshoot in upclose-and-personal dog fights. Without the quick flaps operation Mig3 becomes a boom and zoom fighter, akin to a FW but with lackluster firepower. On one hand it's "more realistic" and teaches you how to improve your gunnery for a single-pass kill, however on another hand it's a sitting duck if you miscalculated.

 

Well, that's just an example (as you allude to at the end) of how woefully unrealistic MP gameplay can be. The MiG-3 was meant to do battle at high altitudes and high speed, hitting the enemy's bombers and recon planes and then getting out of there. It wasn't meant to be an aerial ballerina, getting into slow turn fights with 109s - that's just asking to play to the 109's advantages. 

Edited by LukeFF

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3 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

Well, that's just an example (as you allude to at the end) of how woefully unrealistic MP gameplay can be. The MiG-3 was meant to do battle at high altitudes and high speed, hitting the enemy's bombers and recon planes and then getting out of there. It wasn't meant to be an aerial ballerina, getting into slow turn fights with 109s - that's just asking to play to the 109's advantages. 

 

of course, I wasn't contesting it at all. :) But as gamey as the MP experience is this is really the only fighter in VVS arsenal that has this particular disadvantage. Sadly it seems to be quite unfair since it was working fine, then it was "fixed" akin to your home pet cat, and it lost its effectiveness. 😄

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So, coming back to this....   Do the flaps and limiter system currently work correctly and if so, what is the correct procedure?  

Sorry to say it but, if it is working correctly but, it's an impairment compared to a more ideal system that could have been used or if it's an inconvenience to multiplayer, I don't care.  

 

The only thing I care about is - Do the flaps and limiter system work (historically) correctly?     If not, I certainly want it to be fixed.

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9 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

So, coming back to this....   Do the flaps and limiter system currently work correctly and if so, what is the correct procedure?  

Sorry to say it but, if it is working correctly but, it's an impairment compared to a more ideal system that could have been used or if it's an inconvenience to multiplayer, I don't care.  

 

The only thing I care about is - Do the flaps and limiter system work (historically) correctly?     If not, I certainly want it to be fixed.

 

they don't.  The flaps limiter that was used to pre-set the flaps angle no longer works. The flaps retract function that used to retract flaps instantly/quickly back to 0 no longer works.  We have flaps down and up operation that's it. However, that wouldn't have been an issue either, but the flaps down/up don't work like on other planes either. You push down button and the limiter is being engaged (to set the angle and flaps aren't moving at this point), and right after you release the down button the flaps come down to that angle automatically instead of having the pilot to engage the actual "flaps down" controls.  The flaps up operation engages the limiter to set back to 0 (takes time and flaps aren't retracting at that time) after which it retracts the flaps. The flaps up operation should be without limiter setting and should be pretty quick/instantaneous.

Edited by Didney_World
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