MiG-3 flaps issue?

[Guest deleted@134347]

hello,

 

I can't seem to figure out the flap limiter/release of Mig3 after the 4.x patch update.

 

1) How it worked before the update:

- Flaps retracted. 

- I long-press "Flaps UP" to set the flaps limiter to a certain percentage. It set the flap limiter.

- I press "Flaps Down" and the flaps are extended to the pre-set percentage limiter from previous step

- I press "Flaps UP" to retract the flap

 

2) How it works now:

- Flaps retracted

- I long-press "Flaps UP" to set the flaps limiter and nothing happens/changes

- I long-press "Flaps Down" and the flaps start extending to whatever percentage you want/need them to extend. They extend to that percentage and stay extended.

- I shot-press "Flaps UP" to retract the flaps. Nothing happens.

- I long-press "Flaps UP" and they slowly start retracting.

 

 

- Am I missing a binding somewhere? In the key assignments there's only Flaps Up and Flaps Down...

- Or there's no more "flaps limiter" operation in Mig 3, i.e. it was never available and the old system of operation was wrong/incorrect?

 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Count_de_Money

[ECV56_Necathor]

Hey Count, flaps on Mig don´t work properly. Same happens to me.  

[falle96]

I've encountered similar problems. When I tested the flaps on the ground in third person, something I noticed is that the flaps would do the following behavior:

1. On "EXTEND FLAPS," flaps would extend to the set flap limiter percentage (at 0% iirc they don't extend at all, and generally the MiG-3 starts with the flap limiter at 0%)

2. Holding the button to extend flaps, the flap limiter percentage will climb towards 100%. From the exterior of the plane, the flaps raise until the button is released, and then the flaps lower back to that percentage

3. The same behavior (iirc) is observed in reverse.

 

It's very odd. I wish that the flap limiter was an axis separate to the flaps themselves, at least for planes that have them. 

[Guest deleted@134347]

On 1/2/2020 at 12:18 AM, 666GIAP_Necathor said:

Hey Count, flaps on Mig don´t work properly. Same happens to me.  

 

thank you for confirming it..

 

not sure why the devs would break it... They were fine until the patch to 'fix' the flaps, when in reality it actually broke it by making them work exactly the same as on other planes bypassing the concept of "flap limiter".

[69th_Mobile_BBQ]

I've noticed the same thing.  

 

Am I correct in saying that the after setting the limiter, you're supposed to be able to fully retract the flaps without setting the limiter back to zero?  Or, is it meant to operate that high speeds keep the flaps 'compressed' shut and the limiter works as intended?

19 hours ago, FarflungWanderer said:

 

 

It's very odd. I wish that the flap limiter was an axis separate to the flaps themselves, at least for planes that have them. 

 

This.

[MikhaVT]

After patch 4.001  the flaps on the MiG-3 will now *retract* while you press the button to deploy them. (as intended by the devs, and covered in the patch log)

 

Here's the situation:

• Set flaps limiter to some percentage below 100%
• Press & Hold button to deploy flaps
• watch as your flaps retract while you adjust the limiter towards 100%
• release the button to deploy flaps
• watch as your flaps extend to the limiter

 

This has been causing me some headachs while landing as i can very suddenly drop out of the sky if i nudge a button, or if i release a button my aircraft violently pitches upward. is there a way to adjust the limiter without extending the flaps? 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Kataphrakt

[Guest deleted@134347]

I posted about the 4.001 patch issue with Mig3 flaps in complaints and bugs.

 

Did you actually manage to get the flap limiter to work? I.e. set it and watch the flaps extend to it?

 

In my experience if I set the flap limiter to whatever value and then press 'flaps down'  nothing actually happens. I actually have to press and hold the "flaps down" button for the flaps to start extending. I.e. they operate similar to 109 flaps.. the longer you press it the further they extend. 

[MikhaVT]

3 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

I posted about the 4.001 patch issue with Mig3 flaps in complaints and bugs.

 

Did you actually manage to get the flap limiter to work? I.e. set it and watch the flaps extend to it?

 

In my experience if I set the flap limiter to whatever value and then press 'flaps down'  nothing actually happens. I actually have to press and hold the "flaps down" button for the flaps to start extending. I.e. they operate similar to 109 flaps.. the longer you press it the further they extend. 

nope, as far as i can tell it's just flaps with some extra steps that drop you outta the sky. I've not been able to get the limiter set above 0% with the flaps retracted. When i hold the flaps down button it just extends the limiter until i release, then the flaps go. 

[Guest deleted@134347]

6 minutes ago, Kataphrakt said:

nope, as far as i can tell it's just flaps with some extra steps that drop you outta the sky. I've not been able to get the limiter set above 0% with the flaps retracted. When i hold the flaps down button it just extends the limiter until i release, then the flaps go. 

 

hmm..

 

in the pre-4.001 patch days it used to work like this:

- push Flaps UP button to set the limiter (starts at 100%, then goes lower the longer you press Flaps UP). If you don't adjust the limiter and simply push "flaps down" the flaps extend 100%.

- once the limiter is set you momentarily  push Flaps Down button and the flaps extend to the limiter value you set in the previous step

 

Neither step works now. Flaps UP doesn't change the limiter. And I need to hold the Flaps Down button for the flaps to start extending.. the longer I press it the further they extend.. There's no momentary "flaps down" push button action anymore..

 

edit: added some clarification..

Edited January 15, 2020 by Count_de_Money

[MikhaVT]

1 minute ago, Count_de_Money said:

in the pre-4.001 patch days it used to work like this:

- push Flaps UP button to set the limiter (starts at 100%, then goes lower the longer you press Flaps UP)

- once the limiter is set you push Flaps Down button and the flaps extend to the limiter value you set in the previous step

 

Neither step works now. Flaps UP doesn't change the limiter. And I need to hold the Flaps Down button for the flaps to start extending.. the longer I press it the further they extend..

Yes, the flap limiter now seems to start at 0%, but i cant retract the flaps once extended unless i drop the limiter to 0% (tapping retract causes them to retract, then redeploy)

[Guest deleted@134347]

5 minutes ago, Kataphrakt said:

Yes, the flap limiter now seems to start at 0%, but i cant retract the flaps once extended unless i drop the limiter to 0% (tapping retract causes them to retract, then redeploy)

 

weird.. all my attempts at using the momentary button pushes (up or down) resulted in zero flaps operation... whether the limiter was set to 100% or anything above 0.. And you're saying it actually works, albeit confusingly...

[MikhaVT]

44 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

weird.. all my attempts at using the momentary button pushes (up or down) resulted in zero flaps operation... whether the limiter was set to 100% or anything above 0.. And you're saying it actually works, albeit confusingly...

Yes it kinda works, but also does not make much sense to me in how it works. The best explanation would be:

 

• flaps are always "deploying" to the limiter regardless of setting flaps to extend or retract
• when the limiter is adjusted the flaps retract, then when it stops adjusting they are extended back to the limiter 

[Charon]

If you look to the left side of the cockpit, there are two controls: a little handle with three positions (up, neutral, down), and a wheel that controls the limiter.

 

Normally, the handle is in the neutral position. When you hold F, the pilot first puts the handle in the up position (flaps go up), then uses the wheel to set the limit. Once you release F, the pilot puts the handle in the down position and the flaps deploy to their limit.

 

When you hold Shift-F, the pilot first puts the handle in the up position (flaps go up), then uses the wheel to set the limit. When you release Shift-F, the pilot puts the handle in the down position again (flaps go down), unless the limit is at 0, in which case he puts it in the neutral position.

 

I think the key question is "Could the MiG-3 safely be flown with the limiter extended and the handle in the up or neutral position"?

 

It's possible that the pneumatic system used can't hold the flaps up on its own for extended periods. If that's the case, flying around with the limiter extended might result in flaps spontaneously deploying once the pneumatic system runs out of pressure. The only safe way to fly the MiG would be as modeled in the sim: once the flaps have been retracted, the pilot must raise the limiter to 0 before returning the handle to neutral.

 

This is just speculation on my part though, and it would be nice if the devs could confirm it, because it has confused a lot of people.

[MikhaVT]

5 hours ago, Charon said:

I think the key question is "Could the MiG-3 safely be flown with the limiter extended and the handle in the up or neutral position"?

 

It's possible that the pneumatic system used can't hold the flaps up on its own for extended periods. If that's the case, flying around with the limiter extended might result in flaps spontaneously deploying once the pneumatic system runs out of pressure. The only safe way to fly the MiG would be as modeled in the sim: once the flaps have been retracted, the pilot must raise the limiter to 0 before returning the handle to neutral.

 

This is just speculation on my part though, and it would be nice if the devs could confirm it, because it has confused a lot of people.

I hadn't thought about that and it seems like a plausible explanation. The pneumatic actuators do have a difficult time deploying the flaps when at high speeds

[Guest deleted@134347]

All I can say is with 4.001 any competitiveness that MIG3 had against 109's in multi-player for slow speed yoyo's and horizontal scissors has been removed completely.   Everyone and their mother uses flaps to slow down the aircraft during a pursuit so the enemy will overshoot. The 109 pilots are notorious for this tactic. With the "new and improved" flaps the plane no longer has any ability to reduce the speed to prevent an overshoot.  It'll be my second aircraft (after LAGG) to start collecting dust in its proverbial digital storage box.

[SCG_Wulfe]

They simply need to create a binding for flap limiter settings. I know they want to avoid as many extraneous bindings as necessary, but in this case its such a niche usage that those who want it will have no problem configuring it. 

[spitfirejoe]

The flaps in the Mig-3 does really operate in a strange way like this. It is a pain in the ass and for me it no fun anymore to use the Mig-3. I wish there would be a better solution

[MasserME262]

I wonder... how the Mig3 Flaps and limiter worked in real life? 

 

What I understand is: you have a limiter, you can set it to whatever angle you want. But that WONT MOVE the flaps.

 

Then you have a "retract" and "release" "buttons" to actually move the flaps, to whatever angle you set the limiter at.

 

I dont get it what would be the advantage and real usage of the flaps as they are implemented right now.

 

I dont use the flaps in the Mig at all, since I hate its implementation, I find the flaps useless now, as it creates a distraction during the flight that doesn't compensate the advantage of having flaps in your plane.

[jollyjack]

Is this now fixed in 4.005? I did not notice it, but it seems the Mig3 'flies' much nicer now. Killed 6 109 Fs in a row in a dogfight ...

[LukeFF]

4 hours ago, jollyjack said:

Is this now fixed in 4.005? I did not notice it, but it seems the Mig3 'flies' much nicer now. Killed 6 109 Fs in a row in a dogfight ...

 

No, nothing has been "fixed", because there was nothing to fix:

 

 

[56RAF_Roblex]

Here is what Han tells us about the new way the flap limiter works since July 2019

 

Flaps limitercan bhe adjusted only when flaps valve is set to "retract".

So you can move your limiter up or down only if flaps are pressed up.

 

Due to this it looks like:

 

Flaps are retracted, limiter at 0%. You want to extend flaps to 50%:

- Holding F key. Flaps are pressed up. Limiter wheel is rotating, limiter is extending gradually to 50%.

- When limiter reaching 50% you releasing F key. Limiter wheel stops, flaps valve sets to extend position, flaps are pressing down. If speed is low and flaps are not pressed bi airflow than flaps are pressing down to the 50% limit.

 

Flaps are extended and at 50% limiter. You want to extend them more to 100%:

- Holding F key. Flaps valve set to retract, flaps are pressed up. Now limiter can be adjusted, it rotates down to 100% position.

- Limiter reaching 100%, releasing F key: flaps valve set to extend, flaps are pressed down to 100% limit.

 

Flaps are extended and at 100% limiter. You want to retract them till 50%:

- Holding LShift+F key. Flaps valve set to retract, flaps are pressed up. Limiter rotating up to 50% position.

- Limiter reaching 50%, releasing LShift+F key: flaps valve set to extend, flaps are pressed sown to 50% limit.

 

So once again - while at real plane the operations with flaps limiter wheel were prohibited while flaps are not pressed up - this kind of flaps operation algorythm is valid.

 

My problems is that

 

1) It makes no difference whether you hold the 'Retract' key or not.

2) The way it now works makes no sense and is actually very dangerous so I find it hard to believe the Mig-3 designers made a special effort to build such a system.   If your research shows they really did then I apologise and will accept it was just one of those crazy wartime mistakes but can you please first watch the following 40 second video to see if there is a bug or if I am misunderstanding how to use it.

 

https://youtu.be/1CXzORxii2E

 

If that is the intended operation then it means that a person on Finals with half flap who realises he needs full flaps quickly will see the flaps fully retract to 0% just when he needs *more* flaps then suddenly drop to 100% probably causing a stall.   Similarly in a fight you are riding the edge of a stall in a turn and decide that adding 20% flaps will help you turn tight but you get no flaps at all then suddenly get all 20% in one go and likely stall.

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by 56RAF_Roblex

[FeuerFliegen]

I was actually about to make a similar post but decided to search first and found this.

 

My biggest issue is that you can't set it in a way that you can go back and fourth between closed and 100% open flaps without spending a minute to move the wheel all the way from 100% to 0%

 

It used to work perfectly fine, so I don't see why they changed it... I can understand maybe if there was a historical inaccuracy to the system, but now it has it's own unique problems. 

 

I can't imagine that it was like this in real life, because in the sim, it automatically puts the flap controls lever back to the open position, when in real life you wouldn't be forced to do that, you could just leave it in the neutral position after you closed them (which it now only does if you have the limiter at the 0% position).

 

It would be good if you could set an independent control for flap limiters.  That way, just like in real life, you can control the flap limiter wheel completely separately from the flap control lever.

 

The whole point of the system is to be able to just hit flaps up and down with one quick move, and independent of that, limit how far the flaps go down so that you could have them ready incase you like to use a small amount of flaps for dogfighting, but now, it's pretty much the worst flaps system in the sim.

 

I completely understand if you can only adjust the flaps limiter when the flaps are closed (if this was the case in real life... maybe you could only go in one direction while they were lowered; e.g. a lower position but not a higher position?).

[Hipsu]

Ok, that explains the long press behavior.

 

I think the short press (where the flaps are supposed to open/close up to the limiter) is still bugged because it doesn't do anything in any flap/limiter setting.

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

On 4/10/2020 at 4:46 AM, LukeFF said:

 

No, nothing has been "fixed", because there was nothing to fix:

 

 

There is still a problem with the flaps control scheme, if you have your flaps set at 50% for example, and you want to quickly retract them (without changing the limiter) the pilot only needs to push the lever up so the flaps are fully retracted, then return to neutral. But in game this is currently not possible to do. If you press the flaps up key the pilot will start adjusting the limiter, and only once it reaches limiter 0% the flaps will remain retracted. If you aren't at 0% limiter and just quickly tap the flaps up key nothing happens.

Edited April 26, 2020 by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard

[Atomic_Spaniel]

Bump - I cannot get this to work either. You can only retract the flaps by winding the limiter to 0%. A short tap on "retract flaps" just makes them go up then down again. The problem is that the game is trying to combine the effect of two separate controls in the cockpit (the "flaps up/down" handle and the "set flap limiter" wheel) into a single key action.

 

I am sure it used to work as designed in earlier versions of the game, but it's definitely broken now.

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by NickM

[FeuerFliegen]

Really hoping that this issue is addressed, and not just lost into the feed...

[Atomic_Spaniel]

I can confirm that the flap no longer work correctly.  They used to, so must have been broken in a recent patch.

[firdimigdi]

This seems to still be an issue for 4.006.

[firdimigdi]

As described in this topic as well:

It's still like this in 4.006.

Specifically: retracting the flaps does not work.

 

Steps to repro:

1. Set limiter to desired value

2. Release flaps

3. Retract flaps - notice that they do not retract, you have to hold and press the retract key effectively setting the limiter to 0 for them to retract.

 

This was how it used to work (without the added automatic step that the 4.x patches brought which causes the flaps to retract automatically, adjust and redeploy - but now the non-retraction of flaps is obviously bugged):

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Firdimigdi
clarification - steps to repro - video of previous functionality

[56RAF_Roblex]

I have seen what Han says about it working as it should but his explanation does not match what happens in game.

 

1) It makes no difference whether you hold the 'Retract' key or not.

2)The way it now works makes no sense and is actually very dangerous so I find it hard to believe the Mig-3 designers made a special effort to build such a system.   If your research shows they really did then I apologise and will accept it was just one of those crazy wartime mistakes but can you please first watch the following 40 second video to see if there is a bug or if I am misunderstanding how to use it.

 

https://youtu.be/1CXzORxii2E

 

If that is the intended operation then it means that a person on Finals with half flap who realises he needs full flaps quickly will see the flaps fully retract to 0% just when he needs *more* flaps then suddenly drop to 100% probably causing a stall.   Similarly in a fight you are riding the edge of a stall in a turn and decide that adding 20% flaps will help you turn tight but instead  you get you get the flaps retracting fully then suddenly get all 20% in one go and likely stall.

[firdimigdi]

The bug that I see now is that the flaps do not retract when you press "retract".

 

Other than that what Han describes coincides with what I was expecting (to set the limiter the flaps first retract, limiter is set, flaps release); that makes sense from a mechanical point of view as well considering the actuators used back then (if it's under tension with deployed flaps then setting the limiter would need to fight against said tension, so instead you retract which stops the pressure on the flaps, set the limiter and redeploy).

 

What does not make sense is that the flaps do not retract at all when you press retract but you need to keep it pressed until the limiter is set to zero. You can see them quickly going up just fine while you keep the retract flaps button pressed, as soon as you release it they deploy again.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Firdimigdi

[Charon]

My speculation is that the pneumatic system which drives the flaps loses pressure and can't hold them up on its own for long periods. Flying around with the limiter extended and the flap control in the up position would eventually result in the flaps spontaneously deploying.  If that's the case, the only safe way to fly it would be as modeled in the sim: the pilot first puts the handle in the up position to raise them, then sets the limiter to 0, then resets the handle to neutral.

[firdimigdi]

Post 4.006 bump: the flap retraction still doesn't work - you have to hold down the retraction button and set the limiter to 0 for the flaps to retract.

[firdimigdi]

As of ver 4.006e, not new to this version though

 

Steps to reproduce:

1. Press and hold flap release until you set flap limiter to 50% - observe that flaps are immediately released

2. Attempt to retract flaps - observe that flaps are not retracted unless the retract flaps button is held and the limiter is set to 0%

 

Expected behaviour:

1. Press and hold flap release until flap limiter set to x%, flaps do not auto release

2. Press release flaps and flaps release

3. Press retract flaps and flaps should retract - releasing them subsequently should release them to the angle set by the limiter

 

This thread is a more specific description of the issue mentioned a previous thread:

 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Firdimigdi

[firdimigdi]

This is still the case with 4.007 - the reasoning for this report is that in the cockpit there are two controls: the flap valve and the flap limiter. I am fairly certain those should work independently of each other. The flap valve should control when the flaps are extended/retracted and the limiter should control their max angle. Right now they operate as if they are one control and the valve is not controlled: you cannot retract without setting the limiter to 0.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Firdimigdi

[-DED-Rapidus]

@Firdimigdi, the principal of work with flaps in the MiG-3 will soon be reviewed.

[[1Tac]DisCHQ]

I noticed while playing online that the MiG-3's flaps don't seem to work the way they are supposed to. 

 

From my understanding  the flaps on the MiG-3 are supposed to drop down to the preset limiter angle when the release button is pressed. And retracted when you press the retract button.

Right now they function more like normal flaps where if you drop the limiter the flaps drop with them and when you retract the limiter the flaps come up with them. 

 

The track below should explain all.

 

 

 

freeflight.2020-09-04_21-50-39_00.zip

Edited September 4, 2020 by [1Tac]DisCHQ
Changed track to one that is more clear.

[Atomic_Spaniel]

Yes - they used to work as described, but got broken in a patch about six months back. 

[LukeFF]

 

[-=PHX=-SuperEtendard]

@LukeFF The situation that isn't currently portrayed in the sim is if the pilot wants to utilize the flaps retract or extend without touching the limiter wheel.

Example:

Flaps are at 0%, pilot puts the wheel limiter to 50% and extends them, but then by just operating the flap lever it should be able to make them either retract or deploy up to 50% quickly and easily, and this is the task that can't be achieved with the current control scheme in game. If you press the key to retract the flaps the pilot will start to operate the limiter wheel, and if that position is different from 0% the pilot then will pull the lever to the down position once the key is released.

So the only way to fully retract the flaps is to wait until the pilot turns the limiter wheel all the way towards 0% but it should be able to leave the limiter as it is and only make use of the lever.

The solution would be to create a new keybind for the limiter wheel, and then the flap lever to follow the regular flap control keybind.